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Carl
12-15-2006, 11:53 PM
How long do you qt new fish? Do you medicate the water? Do you raise the temp? Do you have multiple quarantine tanks?

savannahrobinson
12-15-2006, 11:59 PM
I have two protocols.
I am well and truly cross-contaminated with Brett's fish. So fish I steal from him - four days. I treat for flukes (fluke tabs), costia (malachite green and formalin) and trichodina (pp) because those are inescapable here.

Outside fish I use a ONE YEAR quarantine. :eek: They go into a q-tank with "Fugly" the designated canary. I see them through hot water and cold water, and get to watch them grow.
:D:

Carl
12-16-2006, 12:04 AM
I have two protocols.
I am well and truly cross-contaminated with Brett's fish. So fish I steal from him - four days. I treat for flukes (fluke tabs), costia (malachite green and formalin) and trichodina (pp) because those are inescapable here.

Outside fish I use a ONE YEAR quarantine. :eek: They go into a q-tank with "Fugly" the designated canary. I see them through hot water and cold water, and get to watch them grow.
:D:

Do you regulate the temp at all? How big is your one year qt tank?

saltiery
12-16-2006, 12:09 AM
I salt dip any incoming fish. Then treat anything that comes up. Depending on what time of year I get them determines how long they stay in Q... 4 months is a minimum at 70*+ ... so if get them in the fall.... it's all winter till several months into Spring.

HAMMERHEAD
12-16-2006, 12:14 AM
Salt new one's and watch...keep canary in for company
If warm water wait about 4-6 weeks
if cold temps wait till spring and warmer water...no heat cycling as of yet
We have two qt tanks...one is 1000gal and other is1800 gal...large enough for extended stays if necessary

auntiesue
12-16-2006, 12:52 AM
To those that q for long periods of time, is that indoors? If so, what do you do for lighting so you can maintain color?

Personally I have one Q-tank about 1,000 gallons. I keep two fish in there all the time to keep the filters cycled and as dither fish with new arrivals. I usually put a new fish in, let her rest for a few days, then scrape and scope. If I find nothing, she stays there for 6-8 weeks. If I find a parasite, I treat accordingly.

kdmatrix
12-16-2006, 12:59 AM
Let's say I QT the fishies for couple months.. monitor carefully... heated the tank to 70* or so. During and after couple months... no sign of sickness, healthy looking fishies. Am I assume that's OK to put into the rest of the koi in the main pond? Do I need to do the KHV test?

Carl
12-17-2006, 07:44 PM
I'm going to try to get some more responses to this thread. This is an important subject and I would appreciate a little more info. :)

What is the proper protocol regarding khv? Obviously, testing is the best option, but what is the procedure regarding heating the qt to induce its emergence if it's there? To what temp should the qt be heated and for how long? Does it really make any sense to qt and not try to deal with the khv issue?

I was thinking of having two 350 gallon qts and maybe one 1k gallon qt. Do any of you have multiple qts?

saltiery
12-17-2006, 07:56 PM
if the new fish is worth more than you collection... no need.

IF your collection is valuable... EACH of them as well as the new fish should be tested.

SDKoiman
12-17-2006, 08:16 PM
I have posted before but it is gone now....this info is from a email from Vicki Vaughan to me over at UG.

An adequate QT system is no longer a "nice" thing to have for the average koi keeper- it is a necessity if one plans to add fish to their collection. The most important issue to address is temperature. KHV and SVC will only break at the permissive tempertures. SVC at 55-65 and KHV at 70-75 F. SVC is really not that prevalent and no one is going to test for it anyway. If you add fish on a regular basis it is a good idea to keep a tank running with sentinel fish in it to keep the biological filtration active. A key point for QT is that it is MUCH easier and less expensive to treat a 200 gallon QT tank than a 10,000 gallon pond.
Salt (0.3%)added to the tank will lessen the stress on the fish by making it easier to osmoregulate (let me know if I need to explain that) and incresing slime coat. I like to use Solar Salt that is found with the water softeners at Lowes. It is an evaporated sea salt.
After fish have settled down then scrape and gill clip to assess for parasites and treat accordingly. I like formalin/malachite green combinations. Dimilin for crustacial (is that a word?) involvement.

Time

The incubation period for KHV is 7 to 14 days at the permissive temp. So I would QT for 1 month if you can maintain that temp.
We (UGA Diagnostic Lab) also have a serological (blood) test that can detect antibody levels in the fish. In other words we can determine a carrier or a fish that has been exposed to KHV. It takes a fish 2 weeks to produce antibodies so this test is not valid if they have been recently exposed.
It requires 100 ul (microliters) (one tenth of a milliliter or cc) of serum. It is necessary to draw blood from the fish and then spin down the red blood cells. If the cells are left in then they hemolyse and negate the test.
Always net the tank- not a question of WHETHER an fish will jump out rather WHEN Test water quality parameters often and do water changes when necessary Also a good idea to add a fish from the original collection to the QT tank an monitor for a couple of weeks o see if there are any problems.

I have a commercial koi farm and I QT new broodstock for one year and blood test them- overkill but I have too much to lose Important to have QT tank AWAY from the original collection and that effluent from tank will not run into pond (I know this seems obvious but I have seen too much) Separate nets and testing equipment for tank and pond Dechlor when doing water changes One dealer incubates naive fish (never been exposed to
Virus) with his import fish for one month at permissive temp and then sacrifices those fish for the PCR (polymerase chain
reaction) test.

Carl
12-17-2006, 08:24 PM
I have posted before but it is gone now....this info is from a email from Vicki Vaughan to me over at UG.

An adequate QT system is no longer a "nice" thing to have for the average koi keeper- it is a necessity if one plans to add fish to their collection. The most important issue to address is temperature. KHV and SVC will only break at the permissive tempertures. SVC at 55-65 and KHV at 70-75 F. SVC is really not that prevalent and no one is going to test for it anyway. If you add fish on a regular basis it is a good idea to keep a tank running with sentinel fish in it to keep the biological filtration active. A key point for QT is that it is MUCH easier and less expensive to treat a 200 gallon QT tank than a 10,000 gallon pond.
Salt (0.3%)added to the tank will lessen the stress on the fish by making it easier to osmoregulate (let me know if I need to explain that) and incresing slime coat. I like to use Solar Salt that is found with the water softeners at Lowes. It is an evaporated sea salt.
After fish have settled down then scrape and gill clip to assess for parasites and treat accordingly. I like formalin/malachite green combinations. Dimilin for crustacial (is that a word?) involvement.

Time



The incubation period for KHV is 7 to 14 days at the permissive temp. So I would QT for 1 month if you can maintain that temp.
We (UGA Diagnostic Lab) also have a serological (blood) test that can detect antibody levels in the fish. In other words we can determine a carrier or a fish that has been exposed to KHV. It takes a fish 2 weeks to produce antibodies so this test is not valid if they have been recently exposed.
It requires 100 ul (microliters) (one tenth of a milliliter or cc) of serum. It is necessary to draw blood from the fish and then spin down the red blood cells. If the cells are left in then they hemolyse and negate the test.
Always net the tank- not a question of WHETHER an fish will jump out rather WHEN Test water quality parameters often and do water changes when necessary Also a good idea to add a fish from the original collection to the QT tank an monitor for a couple of weeks o see if there are any problems.

I have a commercial koi farm and I QT new broodstock for one year and blood test them- overkill but I have too much to lose Important to have QT tank AWAY from the original collection and that effluent from tank will not run into pond (I know this seems obvious but I have seen too much) Separate nets and testing equipment for tank and pond Dechlor when doing water changes One dealer incubates naive fish (never been exposed to
Virus) with his import fish for one month at permissive temp and then sacrifices those fish for the PCR (polymerase chain
reaction) test.

Thanks. Great stuff.

Anyone disagree or have anything else to add to the khv issue?

What about number of tanks?

Carl
12-17-2006, 08:26 PM
if the new fish is worth more than you collection... no need.

IF your collection is valuable... EACH of them as well as the new fish should be tested.

Are you guessing that my new kikusui (Kiki) is worth more than the rest of my collection? :d: Good guess! ;)

saltiery
12-17-2006, 08:50 PM
no. but the point is... KHV carriers may be in the pond already... it doesn't break for carriers unless the fish are really stressed.

an expensive fish that may break and kill the heard is a chance some may be willing to take...unfortunately...

The entire herd needs to be tested before fish of that caliber goes in. It's about 20 bucks a head. then any carriers can be rooted out and the pond ket KHV free.

Carl
12-17-2006, 09:00 PM
no. but the point is... KHV carriers may be in the pond already... it doesn't break for carriers unless the fish are really stressed.

an expensive fish that may break and kill the heard is a chance some may be willing to take...unfortunately...

The entire herd needs to be tested before fish of that caliber goes in. It's about 20 bucks a head. then any carriers can be rooted out and the pond ket KHV free.

Joking aside, those are good points. My pond temp was at least 80 degrees for four weeks this summer. Is that good enough, or should I still have the inhabitants tested?

Actually, I am building a new pond this spring and starting another in the fall. Maybe I just won't put her in with the rest. But, if I was going to, would I really need to test all the other fish given the temps I had this summer?

Bob Winkler
12-18-2006, 10:43 AM
Cliff notes version.... Good QT Tank, with a 6 week minumim Quarantine period, Prefer 3 months plus, if I can stand it...:) ... I used to raise temp for KHV.. now no longer, as I would rather find out early than later... Treat for any bugs at 3 days if found, and as need during the period. Water condition starts at what they came from, raising slowly to 75F for most of the period...Canary koi in early also.

Hope that helps :)

Carl
12-18-2006, 08:55 PM
Cliff notes version.... Good QT Tank, with a 6 week minumim Quarantine period, Prefer 3 months plus, if I can stand it...:) ... I used to raise temp for KHV.. now no longer, as I would rather find out early than later... Treat for any bugs at 3 days if found, and as need during the period. Water condition starts at what they came from, raising slowly to 75F for most of the period...Canary koi in early also.

Hope that helps :)

Bob

What do you mean by "rather find out early than later.."

savannahrobinson
12-18-2006, 09:06 PM
Do you regulate the temp at all? How big is your one year qt tank?


I have one fibreglass, permanent q tank that is 1,000 gallons. The overflow pipe is calibrated so that its right at that volume all the time. That's fugly's home. As need arises I can put up as many as seven vinyl (Pearls of Paradise) show tanks to use as a quarantine facility.
We do this pretty regularly because we have to annually drain and dry the mudponds. The fish have to be housed in qtanks until the ponds can be refilled. When we do this we fill the garage AND backyard. I have a separate water supply and air supply for quarantine.

For the one year quarantine, no, I don't add heat intentionally - our weather goes about 90 degrees reliably in the summer, and we get several months of "cooking".
So a one year quarantine takes the fish through the temperature cycling to "test" for KHV.

KHV is the scariest thing I've seen in this hobby. I'm very reluctant to add new fish right now because of it. The last fish I added from a source other than Brett went through the full one year quarantine.
I'm not convinced that even a one year quarantine really tells you everything you need to know. But its the best I can do.
:(

Pyreaux
12-29-2006, 04:53 PM
:bump: This is good stuff keep it coming

Originally Posted by SDKoiman
The incubation period for KHV is 7 to 14 days at the permissive temp. So I would QT for 1 month if you can maintain that temp.
We (UGA Diagnostic Lab) also have a serological (blood) test that can detect antibody levels in the fish. In other words we can determine a carrier or a fish that has been exposed to KHV. It takes a fish 2 weeks to produce antibodies so this test is not valid if they have been recently exposed.
It requires 100 ul (microliters) (one tenth of a milliliter or cc) of serum. It is necessary to draw blood from the fish and then spin down the red blood cells. If the cells are left in then they hemolyse and negate the test.

One dealer incubates naive fish (never been exposed to
Virus) with his import fish for one month at permissive temp and then sacrifices those fish for the PCR (polymerase chain
reaction) test.

KHV Questions
Does anyone have experience with these tests?
How and where do you go to get these tests?

Quarantine Questions
I have never chemically treated any fish without knowing what I am treating.
Savanna stated (I treat for flukes (fluke tabs), costia (malachite green and formalin) and trichodina (pp) because those are inescapable here.)
Should this be a standard for new fish added to a Qtank?

vipldy
03-07-2007, 03:45 PM
Fill with water;) Qt temp is at 70-77 over time..Watch at first, scrape for bugs, treat as needed, watch more, QT is from 2-4 months..

Marie:D:

vipldy
03-07-2007, 04:09 PM
No proform, no prazi, no salt?


Only if needed:yes: Thats why we have a scope. Salt to 1 is fine but I am not sure why:rolleyes: I have learned the hard way to be careful with meds and treat for what they sick from..Shot gunning is a last resort but sometimes needed..Your DR. wouldn't give you med's if she/he didn't know what's wrong..Find it and treat it:yes: Wash hands and tools/nets etc if more than 1 QT !!

Marie:D:

Roddy Conrad
03-07-2007, 04:40 PM
4 months minimum quarantine with water temperatures in the SVC/KHV kill zones, plus generic shotgun parasite treatment.

KoiValley
03-07-2007, 04:53 PM
4 months minimum quarantine with water temperatures in the SVC/KHV kill zones, plus generic shotgun parasite treatment.

Hey Roddy! How about being a little more specific? I bet you might even have a picture or two.

I agree that a longer quarantine is good, but the old ways are hard to change when it is printed on website after website. The four to six week quarantine time is the norm.

I like about two months personally. What's important is to have that quarantine tank cycled so water quality never becomes an issue. Then simply keep them about 72 to 75*F, treat for the usual suspects and wait it out.

steveamy
03-07-2007, 06:30 PM
4 months minimum quarantine with water temperatures in the SVC/KHV kill zones

4 months? What are you waiting on to happen? Would there be a difference in time to QT between the fish being imports or domestic? Inquiring minds want to know:yes:.

Roddy Conrad
03-08-2007, 05:07 PM
The koi must be kept in quarantine in the SVC kill zone of 41 degrees F to 64 degrees F for a month to make sure the new koi do not have SVC. Then another month of the quarantine has to be in the KHV kill zone of 65 degrees F to 80 degrees F to make sure the new koi do not have KHV. Add one month either side to get those temperatures in the quarantine tank without having to heat or cool the water, and to do shotgun parasite treatment, and you get my 4 month minimum quarantine to keep my main herd safe from those new arrivals.

My strategy for buying new koi is to either buy them late Fall or early Spring, then carry them through the 41F to 64F range for a month in early spring, carry them through the 65F to 80F range in late spring, and shotgun parasite them as soon as the water temperature hits 70F when I can get a good parasite life cycle kill.

If I make the almost fatal generic error of buying fish mid to late summer, they stay in quarantine through the entire winter season to hit the spring preferable quarantine regime. The problem with buying koi mid to late summer is that if you keep them in quarantine at temperatures in the 80's, you don't know if the koi do or don't have KHV and/or SVC. So a quarantine that does not have several weeks in the 65F to 80F temperature range, and several weeks in the 41F to 64F range, will not adequately protect your koi collection from fatal viral exposure from new arrivals.

The generic shotgun treatment, copied and pasted from my article in KOI USA recently, is given below:

Parasite Control

After water quality problems, parasite control is the next most frequent cause of koi health problems. The usual signs of parasite infestations “out of control” is fish lethargic at the surface of the water, ulcerations, fish deaths, “spider veins” on the underneath side of the koi, and “head down” behaviors.

There are many “wet labs” at koi shows and seminars to teach specifics of koi parasite identification and control. The best of these is the weekend wet lab connected to the KHA or Koi Health Advisor course. I have been through three of these wet labs myself, including the KHA weekend, and recommend them to koi ponders serious about their hobby.

These wet labs teach how to take koi skin scrapes and gill snips to identify the parasites by microscope examination. Since parasites frequently become a significant problem on some koi but not others in the same pond, this method of parasite treatment requires examination by microscope a significant percentage of the koi in the pond to be sure of the best parasite treatment strategy.

For those who are not yet knowledgeable or trained in microscope examination to identify koi parasites, treating the entire pond with a “shotgun” parasite treatment may be useful when parasites are suspected causes of apparent koi health problems. There are two usual approaches to “shotgun” parasite treatments. The least expensive is the combination of potassium permanganate and salt treatment, which I used myself for many years successfully. This approach is to treat the pond with 0.3 to 0.6% salt and 2 to 4 ppm potassium permanganate treatments every 5 days for a total of 5 such treatments at water temperatures in the 65F to 85F range. However, after practicing that strategy for several years, my own experience is that the “shotgun” treatments used by fish farmers and professional koi dealers are superior to the potassium permanganate shotgun protocol, because the alternate (but more expensive) technology is more effective and safer to the fish. The purpose of this koi pond maintenance section is to give adequate detail of this shotgun treatment to practice it. The problem with the cheaper PP and salt treatment is that in many cases that combination does not adequately control costia, gill flukes, anchorworm, and fish lice.

Before starting a shotgun parasite treatment, four conditions should be met to insure the treatment kills parasites but not fish. The first condition is the pond volume must be known to at least 30% accuracy. Without knowing the pond volume, the dose of the chemicals may not be accurate enough for purpose of safe parasite control.

The second condition is the pond water temperature must be in the 65F to 85F range. If the temperature is below 65F, the life cycle of several parasites such as “Ich”, costia, and gill fluke is too long to ever hope for the treatment to gain control of the parasites. If the temperature is above 85F, chemical treatments which reduce oxygen solubility may put the fish at risk of inadequate oxygen content. Strong aeration of the pond water can extend the treatment temperature range to 90-95F, but watch for signs of inadequate oxygen such as fish hanging at the surface.

The third condition is the pond must be reasonably clean. One of the best treatment chemicals in the shotgun treatment, Proform C or Formalin, has a very short lifetime in dirty pond water and will not last long enough in dirty water to kill parasites. If there is any question about the pond water being good enough for an effective shotgun parasite treatment, the pond can be safely cleaned by treating the pond with 0.5 ppm potassium permanganate treatments until the purple/pink color lasts more than 15 minutes. If this potassium permanganate dose lasts longer than 15 minutes, the Dissolved Organic Carbon level in the pond is low enough for the Proform C or Formalin to kill the parasites. All dechlorinators and ammonia binders react with potassium permanganate, so if a dechlorinator or ammonia binder has been added, the potassium permanganate must first destroy these chemicals before it can clean up the pond water by oxidizing the Dissolved Organic Carbon.

The fourth condition is to have a low salt level since some ponders have observed negative reactions of the combination of either Proform C or Formalin when combined with salt. Salt and Formalin or Proform C both decrease oxygen solubility in the water, so the salt and Formalin combination should be specifically avoided at high water temperatures when the solubility of oxygen in the water is lower.

Okay, now the pond temperature is in the 65F to 85F range, the pond volume is known to at least 30% accuracy, the pond water is adequately clean for the chemicals to have an adequate lifetime, salt is less than 0.15%, so you are ready for a shotgun parasite treatment. During parasite treatment do not use either calcium bentonite clay or activated carbon, since either of these will absorb the chemicals and the parasites will not be killed. Keep the filtration system in service during the treatment, since parasites can be kept alive if the filter system is taken off line.

1. Dose 4 times with the dose spaced every 3 days at a dose of 100 ml per 1000 gallons with either Proform C or Argent Chemicals 37% Formalin – kills costia and most other parasites, dose schedule is to kill parasite life cycle. This is different than the bottle label instructions for Proform C which says to treat every 24 hours for three days. The change from the bottle label instructions is to have a better chance of killing the life cycle of “Ich”, costia, and gill flukes since the life cycle is unlikely to be complete in 3 days. Note: Formalin or Proform C read as ammonia on many ammonia test kit procedures, so testing for ammonia is not technically possible during Proform C or Formalin parasites treatments, nor for two days following the treatment.
2. If the pond is only koi, treat twice, a week apart, with standard bottle label Supaverm dose. Remember anytime Supaverm is used, the bottle must be strongly agitated before dosing, since Supaverm is a suspension rather than a solution, and agitation of the bottle is required to insure the Supaverm is the right strength. If goldfish are present, use two doses of Praziquantel a week apart, since Supaverm kills goldfish. This step is for gill fluke control since their life cycle is not predictable. Note: Praziquantal can be combined with the first and last Proform C or Formalin treatments to shorten the total shotgun treatment protocol, but Supaverm must be used separately.
3. Treat with 1 gram 25% Dimilin powder per 1000 gallons twice, a week apart, for anchorworn and fish lice control, separate from the above treatments. Dimilin is to kill anchorworm and fish lice, which are not controlled by the other treatments. Note: For ponders without access to Dimilin 25% powder, a liquid form of Dimilin is also available and sold for pond use.

Postscript: I have never bought a koi with KHV or SVC. But I have bought koi loaded with some really hard to kill parasites. Even the parasite infestation can wipe out an entire koi pond of a person who has not been through the worst of the Japanese strains of costia or the worst of the gill flukes. Nasty stuff, I lost a bunch of koi in quarantine in two shipments while I learned my shotgun parasite lessons from the professionals who helped me out by teaching me how to get control on message board discussions.

Carl
05-19-2008, 06:54 AM
Are you scraping, scoping and treating, or shotgunning your qt fish? If not, why not?

Standard shotgun treatment is Proform C for three days, with the last treatment combined with Prazi. Water changes before each Proform C treatment, no water change for a week after the Prazi.

ponderingkoi
05-19-2008, 09:15 AM
Are you scraping, scoping and treating, or shotgunning your qt fish? If not, why not?

Standard shotgun treatment is Proform C for three days, with the last treatment combined with Prazi. Water changes before each Proform C treatment, no water change for a week after the Prazi.

That's what I do. I then sedate, scrape and scope at the end of the week after prazi. I've never seen anything moving on scope after this treatment, but I've only been at it 3 years or so...and all fish were asymptomatic upon purchase. All new fish quarantined the same way & get the same treatment.

kitfoxdrvr
05-19-2008, 10:56 AM
Hmmmmm. Roddy has some good points on modding the Proform-C treatment schedule to account for parasite life cycles. I have used Carl's standard treatment protocol, but had not considered the longer life cycles of some parasites and the extended stages when they are not vulnerable to the treatment. I have 5 koi in QT now that I have already treated with dimilin as these fish are fresh out of the mud. How long should I wait to begin one of the Proform treatment methods either 3 day or extended? Any comments on the extended treatment?

Steve

Carl
05-19-2008, 11:35 AM
Hmmmmm. Roddy has some good points on modding the Proform-C treatment schedule to account for parasite life cycles. I have used Carl's standard treatment protocol, but had not considered the longer life cycles of some parasites and the extended stages when they are not vulnerable to the treatment. I have 5 koi in QT now that I have already treated with dimilin as these fish are fresh out of the mud. How long should I wait to begin one of the Proform treatment methods either 3 day or extended? Any comments on the extended treatment?

Steve

Life cycle can be temperature dependent. :yes:

Some parasites can resist treatment during certain parts of their life cycle. If you can scrape and scope it is helpful to do so after the treatment to see if there are any stragglers.

Hugh Albrecht
07-02-2008, 12:34 AM
The koi must be kept in quarantine in the SVC kill zone of 41 degrees F to 64 degrees F for a month to make sure the new koi do not have SVC. Then another month of the quarantine has to be in the KHV kill zone of 65 degrees F to 80 degrees F to make sure the new koi do not have KHV. Add one month either side to get those temperatures in the quarantine tank without having to heat or cool the water, and to do shotgun parasite treatment, and you get my 4 month minimum quarantine to keep my main herd safe from those new arrivals.

My strategy for buying new koi is to either buy them late Fall or early Spring, then carry them through the 41F to 64F range for a month in early spring, carry them through the 65F to 80F range in late spring, and shotgun parasite them as soon as the water temperature hits 70F when I can get a good parasite life cycle kill.

If I make the almost fatal generic error of buying fish mid to late summer, they stay in quarantine through the entire winter season to hit the spring preferable quarantine regime. The problem with buying koi mid to late summer is that if you keep them in quarantine at temperatures in the 80's, you don't know if the koi do or don't have KHV and/or SVC. So a quarantine that does not have several weeks in the 65F to 80F temperature range, and several weeks in the 41F to 64F range, will not adequately protect your koi collection from fatal viral exposure from new arrivals.

The generic shotgun treatment, copied and pasted from my article in KOI USA recently, is given below:

Parasite Control

After water quality problems, parasite control is the next most frequent cause of koi health problems. The usual signs of parasite infestations “out of control” is fish lethargic at the surface of the water, ulcerations, fish deaths, “spider veins” on the underneath side of the koi, and “head down” behaviors.

There are many “wet labs” at koi shows and seminars to teach specifics of koi parasite identification and control. The best of these is the weekend wet lab connected to the KHA or Koi Health Advisor course. I have been through three of these wet labs myself, including the KHA weekend, and recommend them to koi ponders serious about their hobby.

These wet labs teach how to take koi skin scrapes and gill snips to identify the parasites by microscope examination. Since parasites frequently become a significant problem on some koi but not others in the same pond, this method of parasite treatment requires examination by microscope a significant percentage of the koi in the pond to be sure of the best parasite treatment strategy.

For those who are not yet knowledgeable or trained in microscope examination to identify koi parasites, treating the entire pond with a “shotgun” parasite treatment may be useful when parasites are suspected causes of apparent koi health problems. There are two usual approaches to “shotgun” parasite treatments. The least expensive is the combination of potassium permanganate and salt treatment, which I used myself for many years successfully. This approach is to treat the pond with 0.3 to 0.6% salt and 2 to 4 ppm potassium permanganate treatments every 5 days for a total of 5 such treatments at water temperatures in the 65F to 85F range. However, after practicing that strategy for several years, my own experience is that the “shotgun” treatments used by fish farmers and professional koi dealers are superior to the potassium permanganate shotgun protocol, because the alternate (but more expensive) technology is more effective and safer to the fish. The purpose of this koi pond maintenance section is to give adequate detail of this shotgun treatment to practice it. The problem with the cheaper PP and salt treatment is that in many cases that combination does not adequately control costia, gill flukes, anchorworm, and fish lice.

Before starting a shotgun parasite treatment, four conditions should be met to insure the treatment kills parasites but not fish. The first condition is the pond volume must be known to at least 30% accuracy. Without knowing the pond volume, the dose of the chemicals may not be accurate enough for purpose of safe parasite control.

The second condition is the pond water temperature must be in the 65F to 85F range. If the temperature is below 65F, the life cycle of several parasites such as “Ich”, costia, and gill fluke is too long to ever hope for the treatment to gain control of the parasites. If the temperature is above 85F, chemical treatments which reduce oxygen solubility may put the fish at risk of inadequate oxygen content. Strong aeration of the pond water can extend the treatment temperature range to 90-95F, but watch for signs of inadequate oxygen such as fish hanging at the surface.

The third condition is the pond must be reasonably clean. One of the best treatment chemicals in the shotgun treatment, Proform C or Formalin, has a very short lifetime in dirty pond water and will not last long enough in dirty water to kill parasites. If there is any question about the pond water being good enough for an effective shotgun parasite treatment, the pond can be safely cleaned by treating the pond with 0.5 ppm potassium permanganate treatments until the purple/pink color lasts more than 15 minutes. If this potassium permanganate dose lasts longer than 15 minutes, the Dissolved Organic Carbon level in the pond is low enough for the Proform C or Formalin to kill the parasites. All dechlorinators and ammonia binders react with potassium permanganate, so if a dechlorinator or ammonia binder has been added, the potassium permanganate must first destroy these chemicals before it can clean up the pond water by oxidizing the Dissolved Organic Carbon.

The fourth condition is to have a low salt level since some ponders have observed negative reactions of the combination of either Proform C or Formalin when combined with salt. Salt and Formalin or Proform C both decrease oxygen solubility in the water, so the salt and Formalin combination should be specifically avoided at high water temperatures when the solubility of oxygen in the water is lower.

Okay, now the pond temperature is in the 65F to 85F range, the pond volume is known to at least 30% accuracy, the pond water is adequately clean for the chemicals to have an adequate lifetime, salt is less than 0.15%, so you are ready for a shotgun parasite treatment. During parasite treatment do not use either calcium bentonite clay or activated carbon, since either of these will absorb the chemicals and the parasites will not be killed. Keep the filtration system in service during the treatment, since parasites can be kept alive if the filter system is taken off line.

1. Dose 4 times with the dose spaced every 3 days at a dose of 100 ml per 1000 gallons with either Proform C or Argent Chemicals 37% Formalin – kills costia and most other parasites, dose schedule is to kill parasite life cycle. This is different than the bottle label instructions for Proform C which says to treat every 24 hours for three days. The change from the bottle label instructions is to have a better chance of killing the life cycle of “Ich”, costia, and gill flukes since the life cycle is unlikely to be complete in 3 days. Note: Formalin or Proform C read as ammonia on many ammonia test kit procedures, so testing for ammonia is not technically possible during Proform C or Formalin parasites treatments, nor for two days following the treatment.
2. If the pond is only koi, treat twice, a week apart, with standard bottle label Supaverm dose. Remember anytime Supaverm is used, the bottle must be strongly agitated before dosing, since Supaverm is a suspension rather than a solution, and agitation of the bottle is required to insure the Supaverm is the right strength. If goldfish are present, use two doses of Praziquantel a week apart, since Supaverm kills goldfish. This step is for gill fluke control since their life cycle is not predictable. Note: Praziquantal can be combined with the first and last Proform C or Formalin treatments to shorten the total shotgun treatment protocol, but Supaverm must be used separately.
3. Treat with 1 gram 25% Dimilin powder per 1000 gallons twice, a week apart, for anchorworn and fish lice control, separate from the above treatments. Dimilin is to kill anchorworm and fish lice, which are not controlled by the other treatments. Note: For ponders without access to Dimilin 25% powder, a liquid form of Dimilin is also available and sold for pond use.

Postscript: I have never bought a koi with KHV or SVC. But I have bought koi loaded with some really hard to kill parasites. Even the parasite infestation can wipe out an entire koi pond of a person who has not been through the worst of the Japanese strains of costia or the worst of the gill flukes. Nasty stuff, I lost a bunch of koi in quarantine in two shipments while I learned my shotgun parasite lessons from the professionals who helped me out by teaching me how to get control on message board discussions.

Roddy,

I your generic treatment with Proform C are you doing water changes before each dose.

mrpig
08-07-2008, 10:27 PM
:bump:
For everyone: I would like to hear more about your personal heat-cycling protocol.

Midorigoi
08-18-2008, 01:59 AM
I used to only qt for a month, then I found out that was bad and learned a lot, thanks to KOIPHEN! :yes: :clap:

Now I have a new plan....
Firstly do a scrape & scope as soon as the koi arrives and treat for any nasties it has and get it settled in. QT indoors for 6 to 8 months, depending on the time of year the koi is aquired at. This part is a bit iffy: Either the first three months or the last three months I'll heat to 70F and 75F for about a month so I can see any KHV.

wputnam
10-18-2008, 11:39 PM
QT for 6 weeks, during which I start with the 3 day Proform-C, then Prazi on the last day... Water changes per instructions on Proform-C.
Then raise Salt over a 24 hour time to 3% for a week
Water changes as needed to lower Salt over the remaining time.
Now I will be adding the 70 - 75 temp range for the remaining time...
Scrape for Microscope prior to releasing...

CHICHI
03-05-2009, 09:02 AM
Our MG&F Protocol for Ich at 18C Comprises 4 clear days between Treatments for 3 Doses and includes a 15% water change the day before each application :yes:

Lee01702
08-13-2009, 06:23 PM
Hi All,

I am about to purchase more koi for my small pond. As I am a brand new beginner, I've just been buying inexpensive ones from a pet store.

What are the basics I need (pump, heater, etc.) for a quarantine tank? Can I keep them in a plastic tub with aeration?

Obviously, I don't want to spend a ton of money, since I am only purchasing inexpensive fish. Thanks!

steveandlou
12-13-2009, 05:49 PM
That's what I do. I then sedate, scrape and scope at the end of the week after prazi. I've never seen anything moving on scope after this treatment, but I've only been at it 3 years or so...and all fish were asymptomatic upon purchase. All new fish quarantined the same way & get the same treatment.


never sedate and scrape if you do youll see a reduction in any parasites that may have been there