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Roddy Conrad
03-18-2007, 04:11 PM
Sodium percarbonate is the most convenient form of buying and storing a ready supply of hydrogen peroxide for various uses in fish ponds. I buy mine from:

http://www.chemistrystore.com/sodium_percarbonate.htm

The primary use of sodium percarbonate is as a laundry bleaching agent. For example the active ingredient in OxyClean is sodium percarbonate.

Price at the above vendor is $4 for each 2 pound bottle. Sodium percarbonate is a dry powder which is simply a molecule of sodium carbonate with a molecule of hydrogen peroxide bonded to it. As soon as the sodium percarbonate solid is added to pond water, or any other water, it immmediately begins dissociating into sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide.

So some of you want to know why I am starting this thread about a relatively unknown chemical? Actually, it is starting to become known since the ponding products Green Clean and D-Solv are simply sodium percarbonate relabeled for pond use. Since the brand names Green Clean and D-Solv are sold at a significantly higher price than generic sodium percarbonate, I prefer to buy mine as the generic package and save significantly on the price per pound.

I bought 15 of the 2 pound bottles of sodium percarbonate this Winter to have on hand when stringy algae shows its ugly head in the late Winter/early Spring ponding season. And last Sunday, a week ago, there it was in all its ugliness in our golden orfe/lotus pond as shown in two pictures below.

See posts below where I killed out the stringy algae in a week using the sodium percarbonate.

Roddy Conrad
03-18-2007, 04:16 PM
Below find a picture of the sodium percarbonate and a picture of the active killing of the stringy algae using the powder sprinkled directly on the algae beds.

In a week's time I used all of one 2 pound jar of the sodium percarbonate and half another one killing out the algae in this 1000 gallon pond.

GloriaL
03-18-2007, 04:17 PM
Are there fish in there when you are doing this?

Roddy Conrad
03-18-2007, 04:18 PM
Below are pics showing practically no remaining stringy algae a week later from the application of the sodium percarbonate.

Roddy Conrad
03-18-2007, 04:20 PM
While killing the algae with the sodium percarbonate, I had to quickly remove the dead algae since it fell apart and rapidly would blind my small mechanical filter element for that pond. A picture of the dead algae from the application of the sodium percarbonate is shown below, huge wads of it were netted out of the pond on a daily basis as it died from the sodium percarbonate additions, so don't start this unless you are going to be around for dead algae removal.

Leekinneykoi
03-18-2007, 04:24 PM
Great thread Roddy, thank you.:clap:
I take it by the last picture it has not hurt the potted plant as they seem to be sprouting?

Roddy Conrad
03-18-2007, 04:26 PM
I did this process with two ponds loaded with a very high fish density, one full of large golden orfes below all that horrible stringy algae, the other full of lovely large sarassa comet goldfish.

The LC50 (dose at which 50% of the fish die if the dose remains active for two days and has nothing to react it away) of sodium percarbonate is (to my recollection, will check and post on this again) about 0.6 pounds per 1000 gallons. However, with stringy algae present, the hydrogen peroxide component of the sodium percarbonate immediately reacts with stringy algae as it is produced form sodium percarbonate hydrolysis, so there was never much active dissolved hydrogen peroxide during the treatment.

It works to get rid of stringy algae, and certainly should help clear the brown color of the pond water. And can be used to reverse PP treatments, and to be used instead of low level PP treatments to improve water quality.

I have just been playing with it for a week now, thought some of you with the normal spring stringy algae season would find these trials interesting.

Roddy Conrad
03-18-2007, 04:26 PM
It won't hurt the potted plants. It won't destroy the wall fuzz algae unless you overdo it.

vipldy
03-18-2007, 04:28 PM
And the fish are in there and fine?

Marie

Roddy Conrad
03-18-2007, 04:37 PM
The fish are all doing well and developed a huge appetite from rapidly improving the water quality by oxidizing the crud in the fish ponds by using the sodium percarbonate.

My primary interest in sodium percarbonate is to use INSTEAD OF low level PP treatment for controlling the organic load and color of fish ponds. The low level PP treatment works and is cheap enough, but the useful dose is about 10% of the lethal dose, so lots of cautions need to be given for PP dosing of fish ponds.

The sodium percarbonate should be much more forgiving than low level PP dosing.

I plan to continue using low level PP dosing for my koi ponds because it works for me just great, and is really, really cheap to use.

For others who get nervous at using something regularly at 10% of the lethal dose rate, maybe sodium percarbonate is a better choice for the same purpose.

I plan to continue using sodium percarbonate all this season on these two ponds, namely our golden orfe and sarassa comet goldfish pond, all season to see how effective it is in maintaining clear water with no algae with a cheap DIY filter system.

vipldy
03-18-2007, 04:38 PM
The fish are all doing well and developed a huge appetite from the rapidly improving the water quality by oxidizing the crud in the fish ponds by using the sodium percarbonate.

My primary interest in sodium percarbonate is to use INSTEAD OF low level PP treatment for controlling the organic load and color of fish ponds. The low level PP treatment works and is cheap enough, but the useful dose is about 10% of the lethal dose, so lots of cautions need to be given for PP dosing of fish ponds.

The sodium percarbonate should be much more forgiving than low level PP dosing.

I plan to continue using low level PP dosing for my koi ponds because it works for me just great, and is really, really cheap to use.

For others who get nervous at using something regularly at 10% of the lethal dose rate, maybe sodium percarbonate is a better choice for the same purpose.

I plan to continue using sodium percarbonate all this season on these two ponds, namely our golden orfe and sarassa comet goldfish pond, all season to see how effective it is in maintaining clear water with no algae with a cheap
DIY filter system.


Question,will this lower nitrates:rolleyes:

Marie

Roddy Conrad
03-18-2007, 05:02 PM
I do not expect sodium percarbonate or hydrogen peroxide to oxidize nitrates.

If you have an uncontrolled algae bloom, and kill it with sodium percarbonate, there will be less algae to consume nitrates. So nitrates could go up with sodium percarbonate use.

RichToyBox
03-18-2007, 09:51 PM
Roddy,

What is the effect of the Sodium Percarbonate on ORP values? I know that as a neutralizing agent for PP, it lowers the ORP. Will you be able to keep high ORP values?

Roddy Conrad
03-18-2007, 10:23 PM
Richard, that is a very good question. Unfortunately, the two ponds where I am doing this test work has no good place to put an ORP meter where it can be protected from being "eaten" by our two big herding puppies. They chew everything up!

Determing what sodium percarbonate does to ORP values is definitely near the top of my list of ponding technology to develop.

It is good to see the "right questions" about this topic appearing, even when I don't have the answer (yet).

RichToyBox
03-18-2007, 11:39 PM
Thanks. I will be looking forward to the results of any tests.

sweetpea
03-18-2007, 11:50 PM
Doc Roddy, I bought the Green Clean last year. I've yet to try it
on the "green water" in the 6000 gal pond. Do the pond "numbers" have
to be at any certain point to use the Green Clean?

I'm going to use it in the next few weeks.
Thanks!!

Roddy Conrad
03-19-2007, 06:59 AM
The pond "numbers" do not have to be at any particular point to use Green Clean or D-Solv or sodium percarbonate. These three labels are all the same exact material.

I used much more than the Green Clean or D-Solv bottle label advice for using sodium percarbonate to kill algae. It worked, and cleaned up the brown color of the water and cleaned the yuck up at the bottom of the pond. This is a great option for cleaning up the rock bottoms of Aquascape ponds, In My Opinion.

PapaBear
03-19-2007, 09:38 AM
Other than stopping ph swings caused by the algae bloom, are there any other significant changes in water parameters from the byproducts of SP? I was wondering if it could increase kh buffering capacity as well.

sweetpea
03-19-2007, 10:25 AM
I am presuming that water temps are not an issue?

Roddy Conrad
03-19-2007, 06:41 PM
Since adding sodium percarbonate adds sodium carbonate to the water, alkalinity will increase and pH may rise slightly.

I checked some stuff on sodium percarbonate at work today.

First, let me define a term, specifically 96 hour LC50. The 96 hour LC 50 is the concentration of a chemical that kills 50% of the species in 96 hours or 4 complete days, if the concentration of that chemical is maintained at a stable level for the 96 hours. The 96 hour LC50 for sodium percarbonate for a fish species that was tested is 71 ppm, or 0.6 pounds per 1000 gallons. Except that the half life of the hydrogen peroxide that comes from the sodium percarbonate in an algae ridden pond is only a few hours. I actually charged up to a pound a day in two of my 1000 gallon fish ponds, and didn't worry about it, since I knew the hydrogen peroxide from the sodium percarbonate hydrolysis would be very short lived as it kills the algae.

The other point is my original post has a simplification for those of you who care about precise descriptions. A molecule of sodium percarbonate contains two molecules of sodium carbonate bonded to three molecules of hydrogen peroxide. When the sodium percarbonate hydrolyzes in the pond water, it creates two molecules of sodium carbonate and three molecules of hydrogen peroxide. It is the hydrogen peroxide that then kills the algae.

Roddy Conrad
03-19-2007, 06:42 PM
I am presuming that water temps are not an issue?

Water temps are not an issue. Sodium percarbonate is okay to use from 40 degrees to 95 degrees water temperatures.

six6guy
03-19-2007, 07:03 PM
The pond "numbers" do not have to be at any particular point to use Green Clean or D-Solv or sodium percarbonate. These three labels are all the same exact material.

I used much more than the Green Clean or D-Solv bottle label advice for using sodium percarbonate to kill algae. It worked, and cleaned up the brown color of the water and cleaned the yuck up at the bottom of the pond. This is a great option for cleaning up the rock bottoms of Aquascape ponds, In My Opinion.

I'm very interested in this artical. I have a rock bottom liner pond, I guess that makes it a aquascape type. :yes: It's earthquake proof and it looks natural.

In the past I have vaccumed the 1" gravel rock on the horisontal surfaces. I can't really do much about the bolders against the virtical surfaces. The process is a major pain as I hook a 2" clear ridgid on the end of flex hose and hook that to my 3rd pump and then bypass the bio filter and UVs (just a canister at that point). If I break the seal on this hose assembly then I possibly loose the prime on the pump.:eek1: But... it pulls tons of crap from the bottom. :yes:

So now my Q: (I've always got some) Do you think this is possibly a replacement for the vaccume job? OR both would be better? OR maybe alternating one then the other?

Brad

Roddy Conrad
03-19-2007, 07:14 PM
When you drop the sodium percarbonate into the pond, the junk on the bottom rapidly floats to the top as it is being oxidized, so be ready to net it out as it arrives on the surface. This happened in both my water gardens, which are sort of like an Aquascapes pond but without the rock layer in the bottom.

My point is that the sodium percarbonate should be an acceptable chemical way to clean up the rock layer at the bottom of the pond in a week or two of concentrated sodium percarbonate treatment combined with a net removing the junk which floats to the top with each sodium percarbonate application.

It will take about 15 minutes after the application before the mess arrives at the surface begging to be removed by your fine net for pond mess.

The process should save the "empty the pond and hydroblast the rock layer" approach to rock bottom pond maintenance.

My local veternarian has been doing it this way for several years with his 9000 gallon Aquascapes koi pond installation. But he uses 30% hydrogen peroxide bought through his veterninary business instead of the sodium percarbonate. Either way works swell.

six6guy
03-19-2007, 07:28 PM
The process should save the "empty the pond and hydroblast the rock layer" approach to rock bottom pond maintenance.


That's why I vaccume. I really don't like the what I think that process does, or it's cost. I have better ways to spend my $$$

Thanks Roddy. You got my gears turning. (can you hear the squeaking?)

Brad

Limpet
03-19-2007, 07:29 PM
Roddy, I may have missed reading it, but do you through the dry material into the pond or do you desolve it in water first then dump it in.

Roddy Conrad
03-19-2007, 07:41 PM
I dump the powder directly on stringy algae I am trying to kill.

Don't drop the powder directly on the skin of a high quality koi, it is possible to have some "bleach effect" on the skin and reduction of desirable coloration. Of course if it drops on the white section of the koi, and sticks there for a while, you may have a superwhite section of the skin, LOL! I doubt you will actually see any bleaching effect, but it is a possibility.

So that is the only meaningful caution I would mention, don't drop the powder directly on the fish. Drop it on stringy algae if possible. You will see the hydrogen peroxide form and start killing the algae within 10 minutes.

Roddy Conrad
03-20-2007, 10:18 PM
Ordered.
Now if there was an affordable alternative to Prazi........................

I never use Prazi. Supaverm is a factor of 20 cheaper than Prazi for killing flukes, and is more effective than Prazi to kill flukes, and I never have any fish reaction problems with the Supaverm.

I realize this is a controversial subject. But I couldn't let that comment go by on a thread I started without a comment.

khoffman19
03-20-2007, 10:32 PM
I respect your opinion. No controversy here.

tommyd
03-21-2007, 10:41 AM
Hi Roddy,

Thanks for the info on another method to fight string algae. I was wondering if the percarbonate has any effect on a mature bio filter? Second question - what would be the application rate for maintenance at the first sight of string algae. Last question - if you have a deep pond how would you apply the powder to the algae on the bottom. With pond currents you would need to turn off the pumps?

Roddy Conrad
03-21-2007, 05:56 PM
I do not expect the percarbonate to have a noticeable effect on a mature biofilter.

Reduce the application rate for situations where there is less for the sodium percarbonate to control, probably to a few tablespoons per 1000 gallons per week instead of the 2 pounds per 1000 gallons per week I used to clean up my dirty water garden ponds here at the end of winter and the start of spring.

moliken
03-21-2007, 07:38 PM
roddy,
this great info. my entire bottom and sides are encrusted with aqua kudzu aka string algae. i'm planning on getting in the pond and spooning the percarbonate around. will that work? pond is about 3' deep. do i follow you that the s.p. has no reaction until it actually touches the s.a? also, will i dissolve or just get clean?

Roddy Conrad
03-21-2007, 09:22 PM
The stringy algae dies and in about a day starts breaking loose. You gotta net out the dead algae at this point or it will plug whatever your mechanical filter system may be. But it has a quite different character than live stringy algae and is much easier to net and remove from the pond.

The sodium carbonate will become entangled in the stringy algae then start to hydrolyze making a high concentration of hydrogen peroxide at the strings of algae, and then the algae dies. This takes a few hours, and you will see "bubbling action" from the action of the hydrogen peroxide on the stringy algae.

I did not bother using a spoon, I just poured the sodium percarbonate straight from the 2 pound jar onto the stringy algae from above. Worked for me in these two "water garden" ponds, deeper ponds may need a different solids distribution technique.

The sodium percarbonate does not immediately dissolve, that is a good thing since you want it to hydrolyze and make the hydrogen peroxide on the stringy algae itself.

You will see the pond water start to clear of the "clouds" of stringy algae by the second day as you remove the dead algae.

Also, any dead crud on the botton floats to the top to be easily netted out of the pond. A good thing, IMO.

moliken
03-22-2007, 07:57 AM
profuse thanks, kind and explanatory chemist. will post pix when it's being done.

sweetpea
03-22-2007, 08:28 AM
Doc Roddy, do you have suggestions on the best way to treat
a "green water" pond? The air defuser is on but not the bottom
drain and filters. Should I mix in a bucket of water and then pour in
the pond?

Thanks!!

FishOCD
03-22-2007, 10:46 AM
Doc Roddy, do you have suggestions on the best way to treat
a "green water" pond? The air defuser is on but not the bottom
drain and filters. Should I mix in a bucket of water and then pour in
the pond?

Thanks!!

Bump!

(I just went outside and in the last 3 days my pond has turned to pea soup but a little early to turn on pumps and UV.)

sweetpea
03-22-2007, 10:53 AM
Bump!

(I just went outside and in the last 3 days my pond has turned to pea soup but a little early to turn on pumps and UV.)

Mine went green last fall within a week of turning the uv off.
It does every year but their colors are unreal in the spring.:yes: :clap:
That's when I finally get to see them.:rolleyes:

Because of the weird weather this winter, I want to be able to check
them out soon.

FishOCD
03-22-2007, 11:22 AM
I saw them last week and they are very bright (love that) but now... well TGFPO (thank goodness for platinum ogons) as they glow through the algae

Sandyd
03-22-2007, 12:14 PM
Thanks Roddy.

What a find. I just ordered 15 bottles. I use liquid peroxide that you buy at Wally world in my laundry, cleaning around the house, etc.

This will be a plus to use to clean up things.

Sandyd

Harveythekoi
03-22-2007, 12:31 PM
String algae and green water algae serve a purpose. They are mother natures way of regulating things in your closed system pond. If you just kill off either one, and this includes UV's there will be a reaction.

Whatever these algaes were feeding on is now free to further pollute the pond. If it was handling ammonia production by direct consumption then an ammonia spike could occur. With bio being dormant in the colder weather and many having their mechanical shut down something has to consume the waste from fish and decaying plant material. In most natural ponds there is at least water flow to carry things away and even these will get string algae and green water, again mother natures way of handling things.

I personally prefer to let the filtration clear things up, but I also understand being impatient. I can't even imagine colder weather places and having such a short time to enjoy the pond.

But I would recommend this, do not try this until your mechanical is in full swing. Once the string algae is killed if not removed it will decay and lead to other problems even if you get the bulk out right away. This will also allow the bio to catch up as quickly as possible.

The only plus I see is that besides killing the string algae the oxidation reaction from the peroxide created may help eat some of the decaying organics the algae was feeding on.

For green water I would be even more cautious in that there is much less for this to react with, oxidants are indiscrimnant, if they can't react with plant or other organics it will with the fish.

There are no magic elixers, there's a price to pay for everything. Roddy is a chemist and has a better understanding of these reactions than most. The average person should approach using any chemicals in the pond with extreme caution.

Action = Reaction. Know what's at stake before you kick mother nature in the shins. She has a mean streak and will right the pond with anything in her power including a fish kill to regulate load.

End of rant,

Garrett

FishOCD
03-22-2007, 12:59 PM
String algae and green water algae serve a purpose. They are mother natures way of regulating things in your closed system pond. If you just kill off either one, and this includes UV's there will be a reaction.

Whatever these algaes were feeding on is now free to further pollute the pond. If it was handling ammonia production by direct consumption then an ammonia spike could occur. With bio being dormant in the colder weather and many having their mechanical shut down something has to consume the waste from fish and decaying plant material. In most natural ponds there is at least water flow to carry things away and even these will get string algae and green water, again mother natures way of handling things.

I personally prefer to let the filtration clear things up, but I also understand being impatient. I can't even imagine colder weather places and having such a short time to enjoy the pond.

But I would recommend this, do not try this until your mechanical is in full swing. Once the string algae is killed if not removed it will decay and lead to other problems even if you get the bulk out right away. This will also allow the bio to catch up as quickly as possible.

The only plus I see is that besides killing the string algae the oxidation reaction from the peroxide created may help eat some of the decaying organics the algae was feeding on.

For green water I would be even more cautious in that there is much less for this to react with, oxidants are indiscrimnant, if they can't react with plant or other organics it will with the fish.

There are no magic elixers, there's a price to pay for everything. Roddy is a chemist and has a better understanding of these reactions than most. The average person should approach using any chemicals in the pond with extreme caution.

Action = Reaction. Know what's at stake before you kick mother nature in the shins. She has a mean streak and will right the pond with anything in her power including a fish kill to regulate load.

End of rant,

Garrett

Well said. I am particularly shy about doing anything at all besides water changes until it is warm enough to start the pumps and filters.

Roddy Conrad
03-22-2007, 06:22 PM
The filters were on, and had been on all Winter, and are oversized for the load, in both of the ponds where I have been using sodium percarbonate to clean the pond and kill the algae.

Certainly sodium percarbonate should NOT be used in a pond with no circulation or filter system.

I don't like the stringy algae. It is ugly, and makes a pond ugly, and the purpose of the pond is to be something lovely and relaxing in my yard. So out will come the sodium percarbonate if I have a serious string algae problem.

I used PP (potassium permanganate) the same way in the past, and still use PP to clean up the water since it is significantly less expensive for that purpose than sodium percarbonate. But sodium percarbonate is my choice for a pond with stringy algae or a lot of yuck that needs cleaning up.

Others can do it all kinds of ways that please them in their hobby, it is okay with me.

Diane, I have not had any green water to treat with the sodium percarbonate, but would expect it to easily kill green water algae.

Susan
03-22-2007, 08:33 PM
Will sodium percarbonate or PP eliminate the brown coloring from tanins in the water?

Roddy Conrad
03-22-2007, 09:47 PM
Sodium percarbonate clears up the brown color in tanins in the water. So, YES, it does that.

PP will also clear tanins from the water in some circumstances, but sodium percarbonate will be more efficient at that particular problem.

luke-gr
03-23-2007, 12:16 PM
Sodium percarbonate clears up the brown color in tanins in the water. So, YES, it does that.

PP will also clear tanins from the water in some circumstances, but sodium percarbonate will be more efficient at that particular problem.

Good to know. Roddy, care to elaborate on WHY the SP is better than PP in clearing up tannins?

Roddy Conrad
03-23-2007, 06:15 PM
Good to know. Roddy, care to elaborate on WHY the SP is better than PP in clearing up tannins?

Because the sodium percarbonate is safe to dose at a higher oxidizer level than PP, and because sodium percarbonate is a bleaching agent from the hydrogen peroxide content that removes brown color from water.

I saw the tanins completely disappear in a few days in the treatment of our two water gardens last week, and the starting color of the water was dark brown from tanins. PP does not work that fast or that efficiently on tanin content of the water. To get rid of the tanins with PP takes much longer and is more dangerous to the fish in the water.

Lee B
03-25-2007, 09:22 AM
The dose rate again?

2 lbs. per 1,000 gallons for the initial dose, and 2-3 Tbs. per week for maintenance?

Roddy Conrad
03-25-2007, 12:31 PM
Please remember the LC50 information near the start of this thread:

The LC50 (dose at which 50% of the fish die if the dose remains active for two days and has nothing to react it away) of sodium percarbonate is 0.6 pounds per 1000 gallons. If there is something there like stringy algae or bottom yuck in the pond the hydrogen peroxide will be all gone in a few hours, so I indeed dosed my dirty water garden ponds with an initial dose of a pound per 1000 gallons, then used another pound per 1000 gallons the rest of the week to complete the cleanup.

Don't use a pound per 1000 gallons in a relatively clean pond, it would be too much.

If the brown color isn't gone, there is still stuff to consume the sodium percarbonate and its reaction product hydrogen peroxide.

Over on a stringy algae thread on KoiVet, someone asked me the good question of why not just use hydrogen peroxide itself? The answer is that if you buy the 3% hydrogen peroxide at Walmart in the hair care isle for this purpose, you are paying 5 time as much for the active hydrogen peroxide as you pay for the active hydrogen peroxide content in sodium peroxide, and you would need 4 gallons (16 of the one quart bottles at Walmart) of 3% hydrogen peroxide to be equivalent to the hydrogen peroxide content in a single 2 pound bottle of sodium percarbonate. And that is why it is so effective..........

GloriaL
03-25-2007, 12:35 PM
Roddy, it seems I remember reading on some thread that adding H2O2 to stop the PP reaction would seriously lower your orp and could be bad for your fish. Does using the sodium percarbonate have that sort of effect on the orp?

Roddy Conrad
03-25-2007, 12:52 PM
I dropped 168 grams (1.5 cups) of sodium percarbonate into our 4000 gallon indoor koi pond today to see the effect on ORP reading, since I have two on line calibrated ORP meters on that pond. The reading dropped immediately with the sodium percarbonate addition from 300 to 140, then the reading started slowly climbing back up, and is up to 210 in about a hour.

The drop of ORP with hydrogen peroxide reversal of PP is similarly abrupt, then the next day the ORP is back up to the normal value. The issue with using peroxide to reverse active PP is the sudden shock of such large changes in the oxidation state. Adding sodium percarbonate to water that has no active PP will not be as abrupt a change.

The effect of hydrogen peroxide (and/or sodium percarbonate) on ORP is a strange effect. I need to read up on oxidation potential technology some more to understand it.

GloriaL
03-25-2007, 01:20 PM
Thanks for the experiment and the info. How long did it take to go back up?

Roddy Conrad
03-25-2007, 04:33 PM
I got the following questions privately and decided to answer them publically:

1. PP does it actually oxidize nitrates?

Roddy: Actually, I don't know whether PP does or does not oxidize nitrates. This is not the first time someone has asked that question. I need to set up a controlled experiment to answer that specific question. My answer today is simply that I don't know whether PP does or does not oxidize nitrates.

2. Okay my system is up and running pond size is 1920 gallons. I use 1.2 pounds of SP. Does that get the crud on the bottom of the pond too?

Roddy: The sodium percarbonate will get the crud on the bottom of the pond if you use enough of it to do the job. How much will depend on the thickness of the layer of crud and how much other stuff you need oxidized by the hydrogen peroxide.

3. Does the SP do oxidize as well as the low level pp? Do I need to do both, or just use the SP when there is String Algae?

Roddy: I have not used the sodium percarbonate long enough to know whether it oxidizes pheromones, the antigrowth regulator. I don't know yet whether sodium percarbonate is or is not a good replacement for regular low level PP treatment and all the things it does for pond maintenance. Certainly the sodium percarbonate does many of the same things as low level PP treatment, and certainly it is safer for the fish, and it is pretty cheap to buy (like PP which is also cheap when bought in the right places).

4. Will the SP work on an algae bloom, or pea green soup. I have a friend who can't keep his pond clear.

Roddy: Sodium percarbonate should kill pea green soup algae as well as string algae. I never get pea green soup algae, so can't give you a first hand account of that use. Even my crudest filter system always keeps pea green soup algae under control with my other practices.

Gloria, the ORP of the indoor koi pond data today:

ORP reading before adding anything: 300 - this is a well maintained pond indoors with a huge filtration system that stays at high water quality every day of the year.

ORP reading right after dumping in 1.5 cups sodium percarbonate: 130 to 140

ORP reading an hour later: 210

ORP reading 3 hours later: 260 - I expect the reading to be at 300 again tomorrow morning as usual after hydrogen peroxide "does its thing".

Rich L
03-26-2007, 01:45 AM
Well here goes another wave of battles!

Nice going Roddy, no matter whether it will ever be picked up as a suitable alternative for high quality koi ponds, there is a huge need for the 'Aquascapes' level of ponds.

Garrett (Harvy The Koi) made a point I need to support. There is no substitute for a properly designed and maintained pond. If you are experiencing a serious green water or string algae problem every year, the pond is either poorly designed of isn't being properly maintained. The problem with continuing to kill what may be a symptom, leaving other problems to harm the pond environment, is too easy here.

I know many old ponds that have had the UV fixtures permanently turned off because the filters and proper maintenance have led to a pond that doesnt turn green or develop string algae. Roddy is able to work beyond the edge of practicable pond conditions because of his unique background and willingness to keep close track of the conditions he creates. Even so, you won't see the conditions he posted earlier in his main ponds. He's different from us.

I will be using this product on poorly designed ponds but I will still try to encourage the owners to fix their problems rather than fall back on any product.

Rich L
03-26-2007, 02:16 AM
Assuming a maintenance dose of two tbs/1000/wk, how much buffering capacity should we expect from it. Will you still use the SC as you have for buffering?

Valentina
03-26-2007, 09:31 AM
I don't have string algae, but just lots of tannins from leaves. I also don't have fish in this pond (it's new, no fish yet). My question is... how much sodium percarbonate I should use to get rid of the tannins? There are no more leaves in the water (I think I got them all) but the water is, of course, pretty dark.
How much would I have to wait, after I use the sodium percarbonate, before I can add fish? I understand the sodium percarbonate is safe with fish, but just in case I add a lot... how long is the sodium percarbonate active?
Thank you.


Valentina

ponderingkoi
03-26-2007, 10:19 AM
Thanks for all your input Roddy...we appreciate it! I too battled some string algae last summer, but it was my first summer with fish...so we'll see how things settle in this year. Always had clear water (w/UV's running) and spot-on water parameters...but I sit in full sun and the string algae loves my long waterfall. I've got a good stock of the SP and hope to be enjoying the pond more and harvesting less string algae. Paula

Roddy Conrad
03-26-2007, 06:55 PM
I don't have a string algae problem in our "proper koi ponds", but certainly have it in our two water garden ponds at this time of year if I don't use chemicals to control it. And I don't plan to use sodium percarbonate in our ponds that have no need for it!

So I have no argument that a properly designed and maintained koi pond won't need sodium percarbonate to clean it up. And In My Opinion that means about 99.9% of the decorative fish ponds out there can use the sodium percarbonate (since they AREN'T proper koi ponds!), and certainly the Aquascapes rock bottom ponds can use sodium percarbonate the most!

Roddy Conrad
03-26-2007, 07:01 PM
Assuming a maintenance dose of two tbs/1000/wk, how much buffering capacity should we expect from it. Will you still use the SC as you have for buffering?

The reaction of hydrogen peroxide with DOC is expected to produce acid as shown below:

H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) + CH3CH2CH2 (and so on) --> H2CO3 (carbonic acid or dissolved carbon dioxide) + H2O

So each H2O2 is expected to create a half mole of acid

Na2CO3 + H2CO3 ---> 2NaHCO3 or baking soda

So the mix of hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate from the hydrolysis of sodium percarbonate is expected to generate good old baking soda as additional pond buffer.

Expect each pound per 1000 gallons of sodium percarbonate to generate about 70 ppm additional total alkalinity or KH.

Roddy Conrad
03-26-2007, 07:03 PM
I don't have string algae, but just lots of tannins from leaves. I also don't have fish in this pond (it's new, no fish yet). My question is... how much sodium percarbonate I should use to get rid of the tannins? There are no more leaves in the water (I think I got them all) but the water is, of course, pretty dark.
How much would I have to wait, after I use the sodium percarbonate, before I can add fish? I understand the sodium percarbonate is safe with fish, but just in case I add a lot... how long is the sodium percarbonate active?
Thank you.


Valentina

Use enough to get rid of the brown color in the water.

Then wait two days for all the hydrogen peroxide from the hydrolysis of the sodium percarbonate to be used up before adding fish in case you overdosed it.

Rich L
03-27-2007, 02:04 AM
The reaction of hydrogen peroxide with DOC is expected to produce acid as shown below:

H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) + CH3CH2CH2 (and so on) --> H2CO3 (carbonic acid or dissolved carbon dioxide) + H2O

So each H2O2 is expected to create a half mole of acid

Na2CO3 + H2CO3 ---> 2NaHCO3 or baking soda

So the mix of hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate from the hydrolysis of sodium percarbonate is expected to generate good old baking soda as additional pond buffer.

Expect each pound per 1000 gallons of sodium percarbonate to generate about 70 ppm additional total alkalinity or KH.

Does that mean that Sodium Chloride converts to Baking Soda? Most of the folks that put down Baking Soda in the pond seem to be selling Sodium Chloride as a product that stays in the pond longer.

Roddy Conrad
03-27-2007, 05:41 PM
Sodium chloride stays sodium chloride. Sodium chloride will not convert to baking soda.

PapaBear
03-27-2007, 09:44 PM
I must be missing something here in the "conflict".
There is no chloride anywhere in the equation so how that popped up completely eludes me. I've never heard anyone advocate salt as a ph buffer somehow superior to baking soda either, but then again I don't get out much;)
The value of SP is plain to see if used properly, just as any other properly dosed water treatment. I'll gladly take it over standard algaecides any day of the week. Of course a properly designed, bullet proof system is far better, but most ponds unfortunately don't measure up, especially for first timers.
For bog/water gardens, with or without fish, it offers a more attractive safe solution to seasonal problems that many routinely experience.

Roddy Conrad
03-28-2007, 07:47 AM
This is not a conflict thread, or if it is, I missed something somewhere.

A well designed and maintained koi pond won't need sodium percarbonate. My koi ponds never get either green water algae or stringy algae. The UV lights and the filter system prevents green water algae. My big koi eat stringy algae as soon as it starts to form, so stringy algae does not become a problem.

My water gardens and some of my growout/quarantine ponds will be using some sodium percarbonate when it is the best solution to an algae or water color problem.

The generic sodium percarbonate is a factor of 5 less expensive source of hydrogen peroxide than buying 3% hydrogen peroxide bottles at Walmart.

No conflict, just another tool that can be used for its purpose.

cindy
03-30-2007, 03:53 PM
Dr Roddy, any reason a pond's ph would suddenly jump up after the treatment? A thread in ER

Roddy Conrad
03-30-2007, 08:48 PM
The sodium carbonate may increase the pond pH, that would make sense.

NaturesCall
03-31-2007, 03:20 PM
Roddy, do you know what the shelf life is on SP?

Roddy Conrad
03-31-2007, 07:21 PM
If the sodium percarbonate stays dry, it will have a long shelf life, meaning a year or more.

If the sodium percarbonate gets wet or is exposed to high humidity, it may hydrolyze and not be effective in use.

Roark
03-31-2007, 07:51 PM
Roddy, I'd be curious what happens if you subsitute sodium perborate instead of the sodium percarbonate. The same evolution of peroxide would occur, but you'd be left with a (very) slightly acid component of boric acid. I don't think you'd have any issues with pH swing in water with 50 ppm or better of KH.

The LD50 for perborate is pretty generous (50-150 ppm, depending on who you believe for fathead minnows), and the LD50 is almost entirely driven by the peroxide toxicity.... comparing pretty favorably to sodium percarbonate. (The storage life of the perborate should be better, too).

Roark

Roddy Conrad
04-01-2007, 07:45 AM
Sodium perborate is the alternative to sodium percarbonate when choosing a non-chlorine bleach for laundry. It should clean up a pond the same way as sodium percarbonate.

Roark makes a good point.

I will look at it as an alternative and post back after reading the aquatic toxicity data on sodium perborate and checking its price/availability.

BruceP
04-01-2007, 08:21 AM
chemistrystore.com has sodium perborate for 2.05/lb in 8# pails.... cheaper in larger quantities.

Roddy Conrad
04-01-2007, 12:05 PM
I surfed the literature for a while on sodium perborate, and noticed it is about the same price as sodium percarbonate.

In theory, Roark is correct that sodium perborate should be a somewhat better alternative than sodium percarbonate for killing algae in fish pond. It releases hydrogen peroxide to kill the algae "about the same". It won't drive pH high in ponds with low GH and low alkalinity like sodium percarbonate can.

BUT, and here is the BUT, no one has sold sodium perborate to the ponding hobby for killing algae that I can find. Sodium percarbonate has been sold to the ponding hobby under the trade names D-Solv and Green Clean for some time specifically to kill algae in ponds.

So if we choose to buy and use sodium perborate, we may be testing it the first time in the specific application.

Again, I have no argument with Roark's fine points about sodium perborate being theoretically better than sodium percarbonate for the same purpose, but someone has to be brave enough to risk their fish to pioneer the application.

Roark
04-01-2007, 12:34 PM
I have no argument with Roark's fine points about sodium perborate being theoretically better than sodium percarbonate for the same purpose, but someone has to be brave enough to risk their fish to pioneer the application.

Psssst! Roddy!!!! I have a tank you can borrow... :) :cheer: Maybe I can get Brettski to send you a fish or two...

Roark

NaturesCall
04-01-2007, 01:41 PM
I would test it here, but we just got rid of our ice last week.

Roark
04-01-2007, 02:25 PM
A couple of other things for Roddy that might be of interest if he gets the urge to goof with perborate:

1). The perborate compound is somewhat more stable on the shelf in that it doesn't tend to autocatalyze as quickly as the percarbonate.

2). The rate of dissolution in water is slower for any given temperature. (In my mind this might be a benefit. It would get the peroxidation process started, and then continue releasing peroxides at a low level thereby giving the Greenies a longer exposure time).

3). There *may* be a snail-killing side effect to the perborate. Aquatic snails are sensitive to boron compounds. Dunno if we're gonna get that effect, but you never know.

So... Dunno! I'll defer to the Koiphen Chemist on this one as it's right up his alley, but at least on paper this thing looks like it would be worth playing with. :)

Roark

H H Wong
04-04-2007, 06:50 AM
Hi Doc,

Interesting topic, It is always a challenge to rid of that yellowish tinge in the water and this may be the answer. I was very tempted to try using Hydrogen Peroxide solution; then I watched on a TV interview; This guy was talking about how he had used Hydrogen Peroxide to bleach Abalone from its green natural color to the color of choice, leather brown..

I wonder if the same bleaching effect wud affect our koi's color?

Thks
HWONG

khoffman19
04-04-2007, 08:54 AM
I am for getting rid of snails!

goducks
04-16-2007, 02:28 AM
Roddy-
This is a great thread on String Algae. I am fairly new to ponding and I have the string algae bad this year. I have a lower pond with a bottom drain to a 50 gallon vortex to a mechanical filter with 3 rows of black knight brushes. Also a Savio skimmer. Both of those then are pumped uphill to my skippy filter and a small pond that empties to my stream (with rock in it) and back down to my main pond were the fish live. My water temp today was 52 and the PH was about 7.6, with ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates all 0.
If I am understanding this thread right, I could dump in sodium percarbonate and not harm the fish, but kill the string algae?
My main job would be to make sure to be around to skim out the dead mess and clean the filters?
Would it work best to direct my water flow through my TPR in the bottom pond and let the upper pond and the stream sit and not flow while the sodium percarbonate works in those areas. They are the worst areas.
Also should I remove plants first?
Any advice is greatly welcomed. I can give you photos or more info as needed.
Thanks in advance.
-Jay
:confused:

moliken
04-16-2007, 07:54 AM
jay,
here's a link to another thing on s p. i used it twice. i'm happier than a koi with watermelon.
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54929

PapaBear
04-16-2007, 09:56 AM
Roddy-
This is a great thread on String Algae. I am fairly new to ponding and I have the string algae bad this year. I have a lower pond with a bottom drain to a 50 gallon vortex to a mechanical filter with 3 rows of black knight brushes. Also a Savio skimmer. Both of those then are pumped uphill to my skippy filter and a small pond that empties to my stream (with rock in it) and back down to my main pond were the fish live. My water temp today was 52 and the PH was about 7.6, with ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates all 0.
If I am understanding this thread right, I could dump in sodium percarbonate and not harm the fish, but kill the string algae?
My main job would be to make sure to be around to skim out the dead mess and clean the filters?
Would it work best to direct my water flow through my TPR in the bottom pond and let the upper pond and the stream sit and not flow while the sodium percarbonate works in those areas. They are the worst areas.
Also should I remove plants first?
Any advice is greatly welcomed. I can give you photos or more info as needed.
Thanks in advance.
-Jay
:confused:

If you go back and read carefully you'll notice that in Roddy's original post the test pond was a plant laden water garden with string algae choking his plants. Sprinkle the SP directly on the string algae and don't worry about the plants.
Your pond layout sounds somewhat similar to ours, and I would suggest adding the SP topically to the algae and at the head of the stream. Let it work its magic in and around the rocks in the stream bed as it will clean up any accumulated mulm in the rockwork as well. You might be surprized at what it reveals.

BillyKunz
04-23-2007, 08:53 PM
This treatment sounds good. I used algae fix last year and ended up with koi fatality's . So you see i am hesitant on using any chemicals now. Just 2 questions? Does the ponds Ph drop and does the water need to be stabile. When introducing the Sodium Percarbonate. And whats the dose be for a 4000 gal pond. Not to much string algae yet. But i know it will start soon. I am also running a UV light. Thanks

PapaBear
04-24-2007, 01:29 AM
Roddy recommended 2lb per 1000 gallons per week. You can start with smaller doses and spot applications and it might be adviseable depending on your current ph/kh etc...
I don't much like Algae Fix either (neither do my fish), so I avoid it. The S.P. will add Sodium Carbonate to your pond after the reaction which may increase your ph somewhat. Test all of your water parameters first so you have a good baseline to compare your results to.

FishOCD
04-24-2007, 09:44 AM
It was 2lbs per 1000g OVER A WEEK'S TIME. If you do that much all at once or even over 2 days, your pH could soar as mine did.

jjkon
04-27-2007, 05:05 PM
Hi Roddy and Others,

How soon will the string algae come back after it die due to the SP. In other words, how often do you need to apply SP. Thanks

John

Roddy Conrad
04-27-2007, 05:17 PM
My string algae was really thick. After adding a 2 pound container of generic sodium percarbonate to each of my 1000 gallon water gardens in a week, all the string algae died and none of it came back, without adding any more sodium percarbonate (or anything else). And the treatment was 6 weeks ago! So "in my case" there was no need for retreatment for string algae. As the automobile stickers say, "Your mileage may vary.....".

The pH increased to a 9.5 value in my ponds from the sodium percarbonate addition, which is no problem since there is no ammonia in those ponds. Fish tolerate a pH of 9.5 okay at "low to no ammonia" levels.

After doing this treatment, I discover much research has been done on the use of hydrogen peroxide in fish ponds for fish farming applications. At the doses I was using for string algae, some of our koi parasites and the most typical fungus infection is cured by the hydrogen peroxide that the sodium percarbonate generates. A big plus for the treatment.

Treating with your option of sodium percarbonate, or 3% hydrogen peroxide from Walmart, or 35% hydrogen peroxide from a number of "click and go" places to buy 35% hydrogen peroxide over the internet, all should kill string algae very safely and more effectively than potassium permanganate use for the same purpose.

I emailed an article to the publisher of the new magazine Koi Nations last Saturday on this general subject (use of chemical oxidizers in fish ponds) with lots more details. The article will "probably" be in the first (June 8) issue of Koi Nations.

FishOCD
04-27-2007, 06:20 PM
So how is your pH now, Roddy, six weeks later? (Mine is STILL high despite several water changes which I find pretty odd.)

If SP does now have anti-parasite and anti-fungal properties, then what remaining applications are there for PP?

Batmasters
04-27-2007, 06:40 PM
Roddy,

I'd like to use the sodium percarbonate in my bog pond. The flow of water would wash it out fairly rapidly (1200 gph). Would it work if I turned off the water for some shortened period of time --a few hours, day,. . . let it do the work, then turn the water back on?

My water flow goes into the skimmer, a DIY 55 gallon upflow biologic filter, into the bottom of the gravel bed of the bog, then up through the gravel and back into the pond through a small waterfall. The bog pond is about 250 gallons, but I don't have a really accurate measurement, nor would it be easy to get one without emptying it out with a vacuum and refilling.

Also, My KH is 70, GH is 136, nitrites 0, ammonia 0, and pH is at least 9. If it causes a pH spike, I'm not sure it would be safe to do.

Thanks,
Phil

The pond itself is a measured 3500 gallons.

Valentina
04-27-2007, 07:12 PM
My water is so hard... the pH didn't even blink when I added the sodium percarbonate, several times, trying to get rid of tannins actually, not algae. It was 9 before and after every application of sodium percarbonate (I think my alkalinity increased a little bit...).

I was about to ask the same question... If one uses sodium percarbonate, is there any reason for PP use?
Thank you.


Valentina

Roddy Conrad
04-27-2007, 07:28 PM
The sodium percarbonate does its work in about 3 hours from my observations. If the pond is flow through, turn off the flow through, apply sodium percarbonate directly on the string algae, and turn the flow back on 4 hours later is my suggestion.

Sodium percarbonate (or straight hydrogen peroxide) kills skin flukes and a few other parasites but won't kill trichodina for example. PP is going to kill more of the parasites than sodium percarbonate or hydrogen peroxide. However, the sodium percarbonate or hydrogen peroxide will be much more effective on SAP fungus than PP according to all the scientific investigations that have been published on the use of these chemicals on those fish problems.

The main advantage of sodium percarbonate or hydrogen peroxide over PP is that a much higher dose of sodium percarbonate or hydrogen peroxide is safe for the fish, so you can use much more oxidizing power than with PP. So you can safely kill out a pond full of string algae with sodium percarbonate in a few days that would take weeks of low level PP treatments to get the same oxidizing power into the pond safely to kill the string algae.

I also ordered up a 4 gallon case of 35% hydrogen peroxide to play with to compare the next time I run across the nasty string algae to see if it is even more effective and just as safe as sodium percarbonate (or probably even safer according to aquaculture research published papers).

The main advantage of PP is it is the cheapest parasite killer you can buy. Sodium percarbonate or hydrogen peroxide is lots more expensive for those high dose applications, but if what you need is lots of safe oxidizing power for string algae, or tanins, or the scum on rock bottomed ponds, go with the hydrogen peroxide of sodium percarbonate is my recommendation. You are much less likely to kill fish with an overdose of hydrogen peroxide or sodium percarbonate than with PP.

Roddy Conrad
04-27-2007, 07:40 PM
So how is your pH now, Roddy, six weeks later? (Mine is STILL high despite several water changes which I find pretty odd.)

If SP does now have anti-parasite and anti-fungal properties, then what remaining applications are there for PP?

The pH has stayed at 9.5 for 6 weeks after the application. I have done NO water exchanges after sodium percarbonate additions since the sodium percarbonate removed all the bottom scum and brown color of the water. The fish are happy at the pH of 9.5, the pond looks great, why worry, why change water when everything looks just great? In my situation, the source water has dependably high phosphate, so a water exchange would create another algae bloom, so I would need to add the sodium percarbonate again, the pH would go high again, so nothing would actually change. The fish are okay, Lizzie says I am okay, despite those protests here and there that I am not okay....LOL!

FishOCD
04-27-2007, 07:55 PM
The pH has stayed at 9.5 for 6 weeks after the application. I have done NO water exchanges after sodium percarbonate additions since the sodium percarbonate removed all the bottom scum and brown color of the water. The fish are happy at the pH of 9.5, the pond looks great, why worry, why change water when everything looks just great? In my situation, the source water has dependably high phosphate, so a water exchange would create another algae bloom, so I would need to add the sodium percarbonate again, the pH would go high again, so nothing would actually change. The fish are okay, Lizzie says I am okay, despite those protests here and there that I am not okay....LOL!

As long as you are as OK as you get, Roddy, that's always a good day in my book.

So as long as you think 9.5 pH is OK for the fish (our tap is 7.0 and that is what pond was before SP). My test kits only go to 9 so I am not sure how high pH is/was other than 9+. When we redo the pond and start with fresh 7.0 water, I am going to have to do some careful acclimation of the fish as they are now used to 9+ pH.

Keep us posted on the HP vs SP.

skydiverfloyd
05-14-2007, 10:41 AM
Is there a way to test if it is all out of pond? Does it just do it's work and then it's gone? Does it need to be deactivated? If you put it around the pond will it kill the string algae down in the pond as well as it circulates?

Thanks
Jack

luke-gr
05-14-2007, 11:13 AM
Jack, hopefully Roddy will get to your question, but my understanding is these oxidisers work as long as there is something in the water to oxidise. The oxidation process "wears out" the SP/PP also. A certain amount of SP/PP will only work for so long dependent upon what is in the water. With PP you have a good indicator with the color as it changes to a pink to brown color from the bright purple it starts with. SP is not as dramatic, but the danger to the fish is much less. Look back at Roddy's original posts in this thread and see the danger levels.

I toyed with a little a couple weeks ago. I had some stubborn leaf debris in the pond here and there left over from the winter. I poured the SP in and within a minute there were things floating to the surface which I skimmed out. Pretty cool.:yes: I used 2 pounds in my 12,000 gallon pond. I did the same thing a few days later. It did make a big scummy foam on the surface which I let the skimmer pull off. It really does act like hydrogen peroxide (I guess because that is what it is :) )

I listened to Roddy's talk in Charlotte last fall where he advised that PP would not do much for solid matter on the bottom of the pond. That disappointed me because I had already turned off all my filtration (too early I now know) and had a good bit of leaves piling up on the bottom. I did try the PP for giggles and it didnt do much at all. SP, on the other hand, will bring the stuff right up to the surface where I can easily lift out with a net.

PapaBear
05-14-2007, 12:49 PM
Another thing about getting the debris out of the pond once it floats to the surface. Some were having a hard time with the dead algae and leaf matter being too fine to catch in a standard fish net, and polyester fiberfill batting plugs too quickly. Try making a net/skimmer screen out of Thule netting. It's fairly inexpensive and available at any fabric store. Much finer than fish net, but won't clog nearly so quickly as batting.

GloriaL
05-14-2007, 01:21 PM
That's tulle netting

luke-gr
05-14-2007, 01:56 PM
That's tulle netting

Oh yeah... that stuff. Im ashamed to admit I know what it is. :D:

tommybuoy
05-31-2007, 10:30 PM
I've been following this thread and have some sodium percarbonate coming tomorrow...at least according to UPS tracking system. If i missed it in the thread i apologize for repeating a question, but what would be a good dose to use for about 1100 gallons without a lot of dead leaves, etc on the pond bottom. I just want to clear the tanins from the water.

Cowiche Ponder
06-01-2007, 01:39 AM
:bump:

Eluned
06-01-2007, 02:05 AM
It works really well on blueberry stains!

Roddy Conrad
06-01-2007, 07:54 AM
Sodium percarbonate is the laundry alternative to chlorine bleach. So it will do well to remove stains from clothing as Lynne describes.

When I used the sodium percarbonate to clean up the bottoms of our water gardens at the end of Winter, I dosed a pound of the sodium percarbonate per 1000 gallons. The hydrogen peroxide from the sodium percarbonate hydrolysis is gone by the next day.

PapaBear
06-01-2007, 08:45 AM
Hey Roddy,
A quick question about the ph everyone seems so worried about. (The Koiworld would do well to remember that 9.5 is only a real issue if you have unacceptable ammonia levels to go with it btw...)
Since the residual sodium carbonate in the water is the ph elevation culprit, am I correct in assuming that sodium carbonate is not utilized as readily in biofiltration as calcium carbonate? I've heard it debated many times and my own conclusions are that calcium carbonate is preferable for nitrobacter colonies. (too bad there isn't a calcium percabonate powder floating around out there;) )

Eluned
06-01-2007, 11:32 AM
I've also used it in my pond (the filter isn't under the shadecloth this year, so had some string algea issues) and had no pH problems, but am REALLY thrilled with how well it handles stains. My daughter is a toddler, and frozen blueberries are her favorite snack. She also like spaghetti. I have way more than I need for our water gardens, so thought I might experiment on cleaning the patio above the pond. If sodium percarbonate oxidizes organic stains on clothing and kills algea in ponds, it should be great at getting the green funk off bricks. Plus, I don't have to worry about runoff. The pond is well bermed, but when we powerwash, spray could get in the pond.

Joey S
06-01-2007, 11:36 AM
That's an interesting idea Lynne! Let us know when you try it out.

Roddy Conrad
06-01-2007, 06:00 PM
The solubility limit of calcium carbonate is only 15 ppm, so in ponds with high GH, meaning high soluble calcium, the carbonate quickly precipitates and the pH does not go high. In my water gardens, where my Spring string algae problem occurs, I only keep Sarassa comet goldfish and golden orfes, so I have not practiced adding calcium chloride to those ponds since the coloration of the goldfish and orfes does not fade at the low GH values of my source water. So the low GH is why these two ponds had the 9.5 pH after high does of sodium percarbonate. If I had used sodium percarbonate in my koi ponds where I maintain the GH in the 100 to 200 ppm range by calcium chloride addition, I don't think the pH would have been elevated, since as soon as the carbonate hits the water, the calcium will precipitate it as calcium carbonate.

I don't think it is possible to commercially synthesize calcium percarbonate, and even if we could, it would make a milky mess (insoluble calcium carbonate) out of a koi pond for a few days even though it would kill the algae.

Meagain #1b
06-03-2007, 12:36 PM
Roddy - Thanks for this info. I've been plagued (understatement) with string algae each year that does NOT go away. While I've not tested for it, I strongly believe my problem is my source water (phosphates). I vowed this year was do or die with the darned stuff cuz I can't live like this anymore. The plan was to fill in the pond if I couldn't stop this. I mean, I have it on the pond bottom just shy of 4 feet down. Tossing an airstone in - gets engulfed. At some point I realized my pond was just a string algae breeding facility. Really really bad situation that required daily hand removal.

I bought the stuff and added it yesterday evening. Today - Boom! Mostly all gone. Unreal. I added 2 pounds for my 2500-ish gal pond. I might have been over-zealous, but I was mighty fed up. I'm off to clean the filters..... Will have to figure out a dose method for maintenance, but I'm likeing the ability to place the crystals where I want - being able to visualize everything is quite a bonus.

If this works for me, and so far I'm thinking it will.... I wuvs you.

So - if ph is a concern, then perhaps one would want to ensure a good GH level going into treatment to help aleviate a potential spike? Sounds like it.

Roddy Conrad
06-03-2007, 01:45 PM
Hey, Lisa of Chicago burbs, wuvs you too!

If high pH is a concern, read the article in the first issue of Koi Nation which went to press three days ago detailing your choice of three chemicals for killing string algae - sodium percarbonate, 35% hydrogen peroxide, or 3% hydrogen peroxide. I have used all three of them in my water gardens with great success.

My koi ponds never get string algae, so never tried the various forms of peroxide in them for anything other than getting rid of water color.

In the first issue of Koi Nation along with the oxidizer article by me, is a fine article on comparative tests of the various brands of calcium bentonite clay, and a really well written "counterpoint" article about how "NOT to use the oxidizers" I wrote about. James Reilly wrote that article, and did a really fine job of it, my compliments to him, really.

Postscript: Like Lisa said, if you don't like the high pH from sodium percarbonate use, use calcium chloride to drop the pH by precipitating the carbonate caused by the use of sodium percarbonate. But then don't complain about a "milky" look during the period after sodium percarbonate use, that will just be the precipitation of calcium carbonate you are observing. The cheapest, easiest source of readily soluble calcium for this purpose is calcium chloride, usually found at local swimming pool stores for increasing water hardness.

Meagain #1b
06-03-2007, 02:37 PM
I just did a serious cleaning of all filters. Skimmer full, brush chamber choked with it. Awesome. I'm questioning the need for a maintenance dose because it works so instantly. I figure one could just sprinkle the stuff as one spots it's return. IDK Fish acting happy.

Meagain #1b
06-10-2007, 02:22 PM
Well, my pond is now pristine. Not a shred of string algae to be found. The pond is totally transformed. The change is really quite startling - all from spending a lousy $4 bucks.. I have my life back and can finally get some enjoyment from having this pond.

Today I'm going to run my tests to make sure my kh, etc. are optimal. I have a bit of cloudyness which looks like a bit of green water coming on so I slapped my UV into the Savio skimmer to see if it resolves, but darn, I can see the liner pretty well to 4 feet whereas before it was just a haze of string algae - string algae that traps debris like velcro.

So far, I'm thrilled with this product!

vipldy
09-23-2007, 10:44 PM
:bump: Any more results?

Marie

luvmaponds
09-23-2007, 10:52 PM
I've used it. It works just as fast and just as good as pulling algae out by hand!!:rolleyes:

It is only a "temporary" fix at best. The algae will return. The question is why you have algae to begin with and then go at it from that angle.

Sodium P is not something you want to keep throwing in every time algae makes its appearance as it is like putting a bandaid on the real problem.

Sodium P is, however, great for cleaning waterfall rocks as it getts the dark grime out too. But again, only a temporary fix. The algae, dark grime and all that stuff will return.

Tom

Harveythekoi
09-24-2007, 12:48 AM
I think Dwight killed his fish using this stuff. Not sure of the details hopefully he can chime in.

Garrett

Cowiche Ponder
09-24-2007, 01:11 AM
my pond doesn't have string algae either..had some in spring, most ended up in the sc and down the drain with the microscreens. A bit of green feathers on the side walls is ok with me, but I don't have that either

vipldy
09-24-2007, 01:25 AM
I think Dwight killed his fish using this stuff. Not sure of the details hopefully he can chime in.

Garrett

Really:eek1:

Marie

Grumpy_one
09-24-2007, 02:12 AM
I think Dwight killed his fish using this stuff. Not sure of the details hopefully he can chime in.

Garrett




Really:eek1:

Marie
I dosed my 1200 gallon pond with a 2 lbs jar and no change in fish behavior. Now my water is crystal clear, see my earlier posts. No need for alarms unless you have the facts. No offense Garrett

BruceP
09-24-2007, 06:02 AM
Marie... did you see any fish go belly up when you were over Sat. and I threw some in the pond? huh?.. lol By morning it had cleared up.

Roddy Conrad
09-24-2007, 07:12 AM
In another forum, there is a description of koi dying from a sodium percarbonate dose. The sodium percarbonate was dumped in and the pond was not monitored for several hours, ponder came back to some dead high end koi. Apparently the pond was too clean for the high dose that was used, the sodium percarbonate was not used up fast enough, and the koi died from the dose. Sodium percarbonate should only be used when there is a problem requiring its use, if the pond is too clean, the high dose is too much for the koi to tolerate for many hours.

Locally, a ponder used the high dose for the new filling of a pond, went to a business meeting, did not come back until 30 hours later to find all fish dead in the pond. The problem was the high dose was used with nothing to consume the sodium percarbonate, and it was too much for the fish.

I have used concentrated hydrogen peroxide several times this summer to "clean up" our two water gardens. I use a fourth of the "high dose" for this purpose, and in a dirty water garden the dose is used up in about 6 hours. I have not killed any fish with it yet, but I wouldn't use it in a clean koi pond, and would not use the high dose in a pond that is algae free.

Algae consumes the sodium percarbonate (or hydrogen peroxide) pretty quickly.

If you are worried about it, try smaller doses and watch results.

Valentina
09-24-2007, 07:19 AM
I used it a couple of times... It works really nice for cleaning, but my fish are definitely suffering, so I am not using it anymore. Well... I might sprinkle a very small amount in the waterfall once in a while, but that's it.
When I used it for the first time the fish acted normal. The water really cleared and everything was fine.
Second and third time - they were all sitting by the waterfall, at the surface, refused to eat for a couple of days. They were not gasping for air, actually I am thinking there was too much oxygen in the water... I am not sure what the problem was, but my fish for sure don't like this stuff. Too bad because it really works nicely.
I used a jar (2 pounds) for 4000 gallons. I don't think this is too much, because my pond is really green. In about 30 min. I don't see any activity anymore.
I didn't lose any fish, but the way they sit by the waterfall for 2 days... something bothers them.


Valentina

birdman
09-24-2007, 08:38 AM
What is a safe dose for string alge?
Do you have to shut down your bio filters?

Harveythekoi
09-24-2007, 09:12 AM
No need for alarms unless you have the facts. No offense Garrett

None taken, that's why I said I wasn't sure of the details. But it does have the potential and I'm still not sure what it does to the bio in a cleaner pond.

Garrett

PapaBear
10-07-2007, 12:31 PM
Did anyone ever try the Sodium Perborate suggested by Roark early on??? I'm ordering some for a holding tank I'm prepping for temporary use and I was curious to know if anyone had taken it out for a test drive already.

luvmaponds
10-07-2007, 01:56 PM
Why would you want to put it into a fresh holding tank??

Sodium percarbonate works to clean algae and discoloration off waterfall rocks and to help remove some string algae from ponds and tanks, which could be done almost as easily by hand in my opinion.

If you have a clean tank you shouldn't need it...unless I am thinking of another chemical.:confused:

luvmaponds
10-07-2007, 02:04 PM
Unless I am mistaken, sodium percarbonate is the same as sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate, yes? If so, it is a stable contact cleaner and not a water conditioner.

PapaBear
10-08-2007, 09:40 AM
The holding tank in question is a 10,000 gallon above ground pool gone green with a lot of recent leaf fallout, both floating and sunken. I plan to blast it to float the sunken mulm to the surface to net out after I get the surface cleared. It is amazing how well the stuff works at floating crap off the bottom for easier removal.

luvmaponds
10-08-2007, 08:34 PM
It works very well, PB. I've used it once on the waterfall rocks and it cleaned them right up. But I also found I could do ALMOST the same with a garden hose and thus save some money. With winter coming and it being fairly warm here in the winter, I have no doubt it will turn the rocks black with a different type of algae and that's where the percarbonate will come in handy as the hose won't touch that stuff.

Keep in mind you might want to leave some algae in the holding tank for the fish to scrape off, maybe a little at one end or something. Another thing too, while the percarbonate will remove algae it won't keep algae out of the pond. It is a contact cleaner and will only clean what it comes in contact with initially. So it should NOT be used as a algae preventer.

Can I ask where you ordered your percarbonate?

IMSALSMOM
10-08-2007, 09:42 PM
http://www.chemistrystore.com/sodium_percarbonate.htm

THIS IS WHERE I GOT MINE, 2.25 A POUND PLUS SHIPPING.

luvmaponds
10-08-2007, 09:46 PM
Thanks, ISM!:yes:

PapaBear
10-09-2007, 09:56 AM
Just to be clear, I was asking specifically about "Sodium PERBORATE", which Roark mentioned early on in this thread as a possible alternative to Sodium Percarbonate for those who might be concerned about ph elevation issues.
Just for grins I went ahead and ordered both (the Sodium Perborate is dirt cheap and no hazmat issues even in larger quantities). I'll be using the Perborate as an initial test to see if it has any positive benefit comparable to the Percarbonate which I've already used on String algae. I KNOW it works, not only for the algae, but for breaking up settled mulm and bringing it to the surface for easy removal.

IMSALSMOM
10-09-2007, 11:44 AM
Sodium Perborate, On Page 9 Of This Thread, Roddy Says That It Is A Non - Bleach Altenative For Laundry (same As SP Is) But That He Can Not See That It Has Ever Been Sold As An Algecide, As SP Is, In The Ponding Industry And So He Considered (in So Many Words) The Use Of It To Be Experimental. I Cannot Find That He Ever Did Any Testing With It.

PapaBear
10-09-2007, 12:23 PM
Yup, that's why I asked if anyone had tried it out since then. I guess that means I'll be the one to take it out for a test run, and I'll post the results after I do. (This way it gets to be tested in a "fish free" environment first, just for possible clean up purposes).

luke-gr
10-09-2007, 12:45 PM
I had almost forgotten about this and missed that you were talking about the perborate not percarbonate. Do let us know. :yes: Not a huge price difference, though in quantity it adds up.

IMSALSMOM
10-09-2007, 01:06 PM
Yup, that's why I asked if anyone had tried it out since then. I guess that means I'll be the one to take it out for a test run, and I'll post the results after I do. (This way it gets to be tested in a "fish free" environment first, just for possible clean up purposes).

AWAITING RESULTS. THINK ABOUT SOME CHEAP TEST FISH WILL YOU?? I THINK THAT IS WHERE THE QUESTION LIES, IS IT FISH SAFE??

PapaBear
10-09-2007, 02:54 PM
I plan to use a phased approach.
1st I'll use the Perborate to blast the crap out of the fishless holding tank to compare its performance with Percarbonate. Then I'll take it out for a spin with some culls I've REALLy been needing to dump anyway.
Since the mortality numbers posted by Roark (laboratory test results done for gov't regulators) are even lower than that for Percarbonate I really don't expect fish problems. What I'll be mostly looking at is ph shifting comparisons and clean-up performance. I'll be testing the water before and after, along with pictures of the now NASTY looking water. (pool went from green to brown due to tannins in the leaves)

luvmaponds
10-09-2007, 09:05 PM
Okay, now I am interested... What is the difference between perborate and percarbonate? I originally thought the "perborate" was a mis-spelling, PB -- sorry about that! :confused:

I am certainly interested in how your "test run" turns out.:cool:

luke-gr
10-10-2007, 12:36 PM
Okay, now I am interested... What is the difference between perborate and percarbonate? I originally thought the "perborate" was a mis-spelling, PB -- sorry about that! :confused:

I am certainly interested in how your "test run" turns out.:cool:

Look back at Post #78 on Page 8 of this thread and the following couple pages of responses by Roddy and Roark.

luvmaponds
10-10-2007, 10:12 PM
Guys, the following information on sodium perborate was taken from the MSDS (Manufacturers Specification Data Sheet). I'm not sure I would want to put this stuff in my pond.

Have you guys read this?

Tom



MSDS Number: S4634 * * * * * Effective Date: 11/10/05 * * * * * Supercedes: 01/03/03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SODIUM PERBORATE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Product Identification
Synonyms: Sodium perborate tetrahydrate; perboric acid, sodium salt, tetrahydrate; Metaborate Peroxyhydrate
CAS No.: 7632-04-4 (Anhydrous); 10486-00-7 (Tetrahydrate)
Molecular Weight: 153.88
Chemical Formula: NaBO2 . H2O2 . 3H2O
Product Codes: 3811

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Composition/Information on Ingredients


Ingredient CAS No Percent Hazardous
--------------------------------------- ------------ ------------ ---------

Sodium Perborate 7632-04-4 98.6% Yes
Sodium Metaborate 7775-19-1 1.4% Yes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. Hazards Identification
Emergency Overview
--------------------------
WARNING! HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED, INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN. CAUSES IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT.

SAF-T-DATA(tm) Ratings (Provided here for your convenience)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Health Rating: 3 - Severe (Life)
Flammability Rating: 0 - None
Reactivity Rating: 1 - Slight
Contact Rating: 3 - Severe (Life)
Lab Protective Equip: GOGGLES & SHIELD; LAB COAT & APRON; VENT HOOD; PROPER GLOVES
Storage Color Code: Green (General Storage)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Potential Health Effects
----------------------------------

Inhalation:
Causes irritation to the respiratory tract. Symptoms may include coughing, shortness of breath. May be caustic to nasal and lung tissues; causing severe burning.
Ingestion:
Ingestion of large amounts may cause vomiting, diarrhea of mucous and blood, lethargy, twitching of facial muscles and extremities, convulsions, fever, yellow discoloration of the skin, a fall in blood preassure, collapse, coma, and death. Kidney damage can also occur.
Skin Contact:
Can cause irritation due to caustic nature of material. Prolonged exposure can cause blistering and sloughing of the skin. Absorption of large amounts may cause symptoms similar to those of ingestion.
Eye Contact:
Eye contact may cause irritation with discomfort, tearing or blurry vision, eye corrosion with corneal or conjuctival ulceration.
Chronic Exposure:
Prolonged absorption may cause anorexia, weight loss, vomiting, convulsions, and anemia.
Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
Persons with pre-existing skin disorders or eye problems, or impaired liver, kidney or respiratory function may be more susceptible to the effects of the substance.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. First Aid Measures
Inhalation:
Remove to fresh air. If not breathing, give artificial respiration. If breathing is difficult, give oxygen. Get medical attention immediately.
Ingestion:
If swallowed, DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING. Give large quantities of water. Never give anything by mouth to an unconscious person. Get medical attention immediately.
Skin Contact:
Immediately flush skin with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes while removing contaminated clothing and shoes. Get medical attention immediately. Wash clothing before reuse. Thoroughly clean shoes before reuse.
Eye Contact:
Immediately flush eyes with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes, lifting lower and upper eyelids occasionally. Get medical attention immediately.

luvmaponds
10-10-2007, 10:14 PM
My thoughts have always been, "If it isn't safe for humans, it isn't safe for fish!"

Tom

luvmaponds
10-10-2007, 10:26 PM
Oops -- my mistake! "MSDS" stands for Material Safety Data Sheet. Sorry about that.

Harveythekoi
10-10-2007, 11:29 PM
What does the MSDS say about Sodium Percarbonate???

Garrett

PapaBear
10-11-2007, 01:45 AM
Ever read the MSDS on PP???:eek1:
Truth be told, properly used these products can be used to purify organically contaminated water to restore it to a potable condition...
Very little difference in the MSDS on Percarbonate or Perborate.
Both have a far more "user friendly" MSDS than most of the algaecides people use in their ponds regularly:rolleyes:... which ought to tell us all something about the stuff regularly sold for that purpose.
Almost anything you might choose to reduce organic wastes will have similar characteristics. Hydrogen peroxide is the Oxidizer produced when they are mixed with water, and that is the thing that does the work to break up unwanted organics and clear water of tannins.
Chemical names can sound scarier than they really are, and as with any chemical compound you should always use care in their use.
Sodium Percarbonate breaks down into Soda Ash, Water, Oxygen.
Sodium Perborate breaks down into Boric Acid and Oxygen.
Sodium Percarbonate requires a Hazmat permit in large quantities.
Sodium Perborate is exempt from Hazmat permitting, in any quantity;)
Neither has any restrictions or special instructions on runoff as it presents no pollution risk to waterways or aquatic species. (Edit... it kills leaches, snails, etc...)


As mentioned previously, I'll be using this in a "fishless" holding tank to clean up leaf fall, algae, and tannins.


BTW, the special precautions listed on the MSDS are because of the Hydrogen Peroxide... you know, the same stuff you put on a cut to "boil out" and sterilize the wound? You don't want it in your eyes or your lungs... but we use it safely all the time.

For more detailed info on Sodium Perborate here is a good link describing its properties and uses.
http://chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/inorganic/SODIUM%20PERBORATE%20TETRAHYDRATE.htm

PapaBear
10-29-2007, 11:34 AM
Well, for those who may be interested here's the results.
Dosed the VERY green pool after skimming off the floating leaves, etc... with 2 lb of Sodium Perborate. No fish in pool. No change in green water, just mulm removal.
PH before and after, 9.0
Much slower reaction than Sodium Percarbonate as expected, but it did begin breaking up mulm from the bottom of the pool after about 20-30 min.
2 more lb the next morning, same slow but steady result. Lots of crap floating to the surface, no change in ph. Still 9.0
2 more lb the same evening, less mulm floated up (less of it remaining to break up by now). Still no change in ph. 9.0 Also, no change in green water, just as expected.
Used about 1 cup of Sodium Perborate on waterfall (fish pond with fish present) to see how it reacted. Painfully slow to dissolve/react, but it did eventually work on the small accumulation of string algae present. No reaction from fish, but 1 cup dose on a 6000 gallon pond doesn't amount to much.
Siphoned about 1000 gallons of Sodium Perborate treated water from pool to pond for a partial water change. PH in pond went from 7.5 to 8.5 over the course of the day. Since the Pool ph was 9.0 to begin with, I really can't read much into that, but it is worth noting that the ph did not rise or fall from the treatment. This was a slow siphon water exchange, so there was no adverse reaction to the Koi from the change. They also showed no change in swimming behavior or feeding behavior. No flashing, no veining, no indication of stress whatsoever.
The pond has since been drained by pumping its water into the pool, and all of the fish have been moved to the pool. No signs of stress during the move other than netting stress, and all fish acting normal in the treated pool water. Green water is being cleared (slowly) though 2 trickle towers with batting on top for algae/solids removal. No problems, happy fish.

Cessnatpa
01-13-2008, 11:56 AM
I just put 1 pound of Sodium Percarbonate on my dirty waterfall and waiting for 1 hour before washing it down. Here are the before pics and I'll post the after pics later.

Cessnatpa
01-13-2008, 02:09 PM
I just put 1 pound of Sodium Percarbonate on my dirty waterfall and waiting for 1 hour before washing it down. Here are the before pics and I'll post the after pics later.

It's better than before but I'm disappointed in the results, it's not the miracle algae remover i was hoping for. :no:

GloriaL
01-13-2008, 03:09 PM
My impression was that it worked well for string algae, but not necessarily to remove regular algae. I also thought it was used in places that were underwater so you may need the water over it to get the reaction.

Cessnatpa
01-13-2008, 04:12 PM
My impression was that it worked well for string algae, but not necessarily to remove regular algae. I also thought it was used in places that were underwater so you may need the water over it to get the reaction.

You might be right, it was bubbling up but maybe i should of misted more water on it over the hour. I'll try that next time.

PapaBear
01-14-2008, 08:25 AM
Wetter is better. Dry surfaces don't give it anything to react and kick off the action. Even a light mist sprayed on the falls would have made a big difference.

waterlover
02-11-2008, 01:04 AM
I just finished reading this whole thing about SP. Wish I'd found it last year when I spent so much time researching this site. The only source I've been able to locate on the Web is the one listed here--the chemical store--in So.Carolina. Does anyone know of a source in the western US? I was going to order some but the shipping was more than the product.

Harveythekoi
02-11-2008, 08:24 AM
I just finished reading this whole thing about SP. Wish I'd found it last year when I spent so much time researching this site. The only source I've been able to locate on the Web is the one listed here--the chemical store--in So.Carolina. Does anyone know of a source in the western US? I was going to order some but the shipping was more than the product.

Atlas Chemical Supply, they are down in the bario near the 15 & the 94.

50 lb bag for around $35

Not much web info but it has the phone & address.

http://www.atlaschemical.com/

Garrett

waterlover
02-11-2008, 10:35 PM
for the info. That should be doable.:yes:

Nancy

GloriaL
02-12-2008, 10:31 PM
Does anybody know if I can use the sodium percarbonate in my filter chambers? The string algae is taking over the pond and starting to block the double 4" outflows from my filter chambers. I pull it out but it has already "put down roots" on the sides of the pipes- this is in 55degree water in a covered pond, I can't wait to see what is going to happen when it gets warm!! I want to turn off the pump and treat it with the SP to see if I can at least clear up the filters. I also lifted a 5lb rock that lays in front of my skimmer inlet with the string algae I wound up on my arm before I broke the algae off the rock. My koi are going to have to learn how to mow the grass this summer!!

Roddy Conrad
02-13-2008, 07:58 PM
If you "heavy dose" sodium percarbonate in your filter system, all the string algae will be dead that the sodium percarbonate reaches in about an hour. Be ready with a fine net, all the dead string algae will pile up on the surface for easy removal.

A "heavy dose" is about a pound of sodium percarbonate per 1000 gallons. With fish exposed to the heavy dose sodium percarbonate, it is important that string algae be present to consume the sodium percarbonate in a few hours since that dose can kill the fish in about 8 hours if a heavy infestation of string algae is not there to consume the sodium percarbonate.

GloriaL
02-13-2008, 08:00 PM
Thanks, Roddy. I was just worried that it might be strong enough to "sterilize" my filter. As for having enough string algae......I could probably FILL a 5 gallon bucket if I could get to all of it. There are some strands 3-4 feet long. Ughhh!

Roddy Conrad
02-13-2008, 08:04 PM
I have run the "heavy dose" through my filter systems on many occasions without any apparent damage to the ability of the filter system to do its conversions. In fact, the filter system worked dependably better after the applications than before because the pond was suddenly made so cleeeaaaannnn.

GloriaL
02-13-2008, 08:30 PM
I lied. I just took a picture; the strands are 5-6 feet long!! My fish may die entrapped in the mermaids hair! I have got to buy me a toilet brush.The alligator is 3 feet long for a size reference!

BruceP
02-14-2008, 09:54 AM
Gloria,,,,, you dont have to do the whole pond at once...... sprinkle some on an area and be ready with a fine mesh net to take out the crud as it floats to the surface. Maybe do another area the next day. If you go to a pool supply store they have surface skimmers on a pole pretty cheap that works well for catching the crud. :D:

GloriaL
02-14-2008, 10:32 AM
Thanks guys! If you want to look on the bright side the string algae does a great job of showing what the water currents in the pond are!

Roddy Conrad
02-16-2008, 01:09 PM
I started my spring treatment with peroxide and/or sodium percarbonate for string algae today. Don't want it to get so bad before treatment this year.

waterlover
02-18-2008, 09:30 PM
I started with the SP in my Aquascape pond three days ago. I figured the maximum I should use and only used half that much, little by little. I don't have a lot of string algae, but the water is brown from tannin and then there's the rock bottom. The stuff that foamed to the surface was very unimpressive, and the water was still brown. I ended up with a light float of what looked like DOC's. Yesterday I did a 30% water change, but somehow ended up not cleaning out the biofalls/filter. (Had done it a week ago)

Long story short, I accidently dumped the crud from the biofalls into the pond. Pond is 19 months old; water has always tested perfect. This morning I tested and ammonia was <.25, nitrate 50+/-, nitrite 0.

I did a 90% water change, retested, no change!? in #s. Added Ammo Lock. Tested after about an hour, no ammonia showing. Several hours later tested again. Ammonia .5, nitrate 60, nitrite 0. Hardness 200. TA 180. pH as always 8.0-8.4.

Pond is 680 gallons, 9 koi--3 of them 11"-12", 6 under 9" and 6 goldfish. I know, I need to find homes for the (feeder) goldfish.

I'm tempted to go out and change some more water. The water temp had been down to 38 when it snowed here on Thursday, but today it's up to 60, so I tossed in some bacteria. What now?

Nancy

waterlover
02-18-2008, 09:49 PM
Maybe this needs to go over in the Emergency section.?

PapaBear
02-19-2008, 11:12 AM
As it stands your water temp is low enough to minimize the negative effects of the Ammonia. You've got yourself in a tough spot, because the crud from the rocks and the biofalls combined is a pretty heavy load on an already overloaded system. If your water temperature will swing 22 deg in a matter of a few days it is also pretty obvious that your pond is very shallow. You definitely need to get rid of the goldies, and at least 1/2 of the Koi to give your small pond a chance.
Your biofilter is dead for all intents and purposes, and all the bottled bacteria in the world isn't going to change that. The rapid temperature swings will kill off bacterial growth almost as fast as they re-build themselves. If I was you I'd go ahead and stock up on ammolock, amquel+,or chloramex, do extra water changes while things settle down, and just try to keep things between the ditches.
It would obviously be better if you had a large enough Q-tank to simply remove the fish to so you could clean up the pond, throw the rocks at the A-Hole who sold them to you in the first place, and THEN put the fish you decide to keep back in the pond, which will hold quite a bit more water once the useless rocks are out of the way...

kdmatrix
03-20-2008, 06:39 PM
Gloria - any update on your pond's algae?

Dr. Roddy,

I poured some of the sodium percarbonate on the algae bed... not much thing happening, except lots of foams on the water surface. Maybe not enough sodium percarbonate?

sworley
04-18-2008, 11:05 AM
Will sodium percarbonate work on green water in an aquarium? How much should be added? I have 3% hydrogen peroxide on hand - how much of that should I put into my 56 gal. aquarium to do the job?
I have string algae in my 165 gal. water garden - how much peroxide should I pour into that pond? Thanks

skydiverfloyd
04-20-2008, 11:32 PM
I have dosed my pond this weekend with 20 pounds of sodium percarbonate. I have pulled out 4 5 gallon buckets of string algae. My pond is 8000 gallons. How do you keep it from coming back once it is all gone. Is there anything I need to do with the pond since doing all these doses? I skimmed off all the algae that was on top of the water, there is still lots of algae floating to go through the skimmers.

Thanks for the help
Jack

UnkleTim
04-20-2008, 11:50 PM
Jack,
It appears that I am going to have to do this too in the near future. I see "signs" that I might be getting ready for a string algae invasion. But....it hasn't happened yet, so maybe everything will balance out on it's own. Let me know what you end up doing. It sounds to me that if I am going to do this, it should be at the start of a weekend when I am home both days to scoop dead algae I presume. Good luck on this... Unk
BUMP!

skydiverfloyd
04-21-2008, 12:09 AM
After all the dosing I am still getting string algae in the settling chamber. I can't let the filter go for more than a couple of hours before it is plugging up. I can't see into the pond at this point as it is cloudy from everything that has been stirred up. Hope someone has a good idea to help.

Thank You
Jack

birdman
04-21-2008, 10:11 AM
After all the dosing I am still getting string algae in the settling chamber. I can't let the filter go for more than a couple of hours before it is plugging up. I can't see into the pond at this point as it is cloudy from everything that has been stirred up. Hope someone has a good idea to help.

Thank You
Jack
And you will as it continues to die off. I would think it should start slowing down soon. I'm going to do mine is a day or two. i did it once last year and it really worked great.

GloriaL
04-21-2008, 08:59 PM
I know EXACTLY what you mean!! Have you tested your source water for phosphates? I have been told that high phosphates will cause string algae: other reasons I've been given for string algae: new pond syndrome, over feeding( I had string algae during the winter when I wasn't feeding but I had a greenhouse up). Other possible solutions: lots of plants some where in your water path, a Bakki shower, and ??magnets?? on the return water line, well water- none of which I have tried yet.
Have you checked the pH of your water? That much sodium percarbonate is liable to raise your pH quite a bit- at least it did mine. Pics are from my brush chamber 2 weeks after the last total cleanout!

GloriaL
04-21-2008, 09:01 PM
Oh and we are "sweeping" the bottom drains every day as well or the filter sucks air.

Harveythekoi
04-22-2008, 08:38 AM
You need a microscreen in the vortex to keep all that out of that filter.

I was lucky that I had purge valve really low on my BD's, I could open them and the velocity actually tore the string algae off and unplugged the drains.

String Algae - The bane of all filtration!

Garrett

GloriaL
04-22-2008, 01:57 PM
Garrett, Gene is working with me on redoing my filtration (I know You wouldn't say 'I told you so' BUT I wish I had listened last year......). The problem with the vortex chambers is that the outlet exits the chamber about 4 inches from the top. So you would need a U shaped pipe and I'm not sure the microscreen would spin well.

koi_beginner
04-26-2008, 10:56 AM
Roddy,
There are no words to express my appreciation for the info about Sodium Percarbonate. I live in south Florida (very dry and sunny now) and this is a great way to fight string/all algae and keep my water clear. I am using Sodium Percarbonate now and I am a very happy koi pond owner ..... My filters "thank you too".......

Regards.

maxxreebo1
04-29-2008, 07:39 PM
I lied. I just took a picture; the strands are 5-6 feet long!! My fish may die entrapped in the mermaids hair! I have got to buy me a toilet brush.The alligator is 3 feet long for a size reference!

I'm on my second wave of this stuff this year. The first time I used a pool brush and knocked it back, but in 2 weeks it's back looking like GloriaL's.
NOW I just realized that this store is 10 minutes from me. I'll be stopping by there to pick up a 30lb bucket.

How do I dose it? 1 pound for 1000g, do I sprinkle around the pond with pumps water/air off or premix and pour around?

UnkleTim
04-29-2008, 08:46 PM
maxxxx, go to the beginning of this thread for directions for usage

UnkleTim
05-03-2008, 11:29 AM
Well....I have started treating the pond this morning with this stuff. To say the results are immediate would be a gross understatement. I am doing my big polytank first and the algae is just churning it's way to the top. I am netting it out as it comes out. Next stop....waterfalls and pond. Looks like I will be netting algae all the live long day. That's ok as it is a brisk morning looking forward to a splendid afternoon. I am definately going to be adding some more bio to my filtration system this summer! And......DEFINATELY going to get some type of shade over the pond.

farne230
05-03-2008, 04:54 PM
Are you turning off your filters while you screen out dead algae or leaving them on, which they will require cleaning? How long will it take to complete the kill off and clean up? Any adverse effects, noted as you watch your koi?
Bob

UnkleTim
05-03-2008, 05:43 PM
I did not turn my filters off, though I did divert through different parts of the system. I have been using a swimming pool leaf skimmer to yank the debris out. It is so far so good working. The fish appear to be just fine. I guess time will tell now how well it works.

UnkleTim
05-04-2008, 02:51 PM
Wow, this stuff works! Thanks for the info.

rosekoi
05-04-2008, 03:00 PM
Good to hear uncle, I trust ''MOST'' of your info.you post.;)

So does it work well enough to recomend to your BRO. INLAW?:rolleyes:

UnkleTim
05-04-2008, 03:07 PM
"most"
i like that.

as far as my bro in law....he has given the duties of the pond over to my sis in law. they are down to one koi and a few goldies. but, at least she added a small filter and did some water changes....

rosekoi
05-04-2008, 03:13 PM
I'am sorry but you have to agree:D:

farne230
05-05-2008, 09:02 AM
I bought five of the 2lb canisters. I have not used them yet. I have been monitoring the development with my underwater camera and noted the progress seams stable with walls covered with 2" algae mates, bottom some algae with weekly water changes. I want the koi to eat algae as well as food. I increased feeding with high protein food, and have noted increased foam production in the morning (GH at 3dH). My tds is 310 to 300ppm. A little above tap water.

Why am I telling you all this, I consider the addition of this chemical a last resort, when I give up on cleaning prefilters and pump baskets. I am close to adding the chemicals, waiting to see if the system will balance out. One note, I found the product was inexpensive but the handling and shipping was almost as much as the price of chemical.
Bob

maxxreebo1
05-05-2008, 10:59 AM
I had good luck with it this weekend. I bought 30lb of for $53.00 as I live 10 min. from the store. It worked as everyone said it would, I may have used 3lb in 6k gallons. The fish never skipped a beat.

UnkleTim
05-05-2008, 11:02 AM
I used 10lbs in 10k gallons.
I would have "preferred" to not have used it, but it sure looks nicer.

zek
05-05-2008, 11:09 AM
I used 10lbs in 10k gallons.
I would have "preferred" to not have used it, but it sure looks nicer.

I use SP around the end of March to clean up the winter growth in about the same ratio 1:1000. It does a good job. I usually do sections at a time over a couple weeks. It is also good for floating up any bottom mulm/leaves that gets trapped in the algae.

Now I have a very light fuzz that the fish graze & manage.

farne230
05-05-2008, 02:00 PM
I used 10lbs in 10k gallons.
I would have "preferred" to not have used it, but it sure looks nicer.

I probably will dose my pond soon. I just have to be around to remove the dead algae. How long did it take to get it all out? I also worry that my filters are not working right since I get this algae bloom every year. My system has been running for three years and this last year I kept the winter water temp over 65f.
Bob

kdmatrix
05-05-2008, 02:10 PM
I guess I didn't dose heavy enough.... none of dead algae float up. All I see is lot of foam on the surface.

How did you do it? dump it in one spot?

The dammmmn string algae dominate the pond! Block the BD pipe... yikes! I need to kill these suckers!

maxxreebo1
05-05-2008, 02:21 PM
Spread it on the string algae not in one place. It chemically reacts with the string algae.

UnkleTim
05-05-2008, 02:22 PM
I spread it around.
The majority of "stuff" came up quickly.
However.....be prepared as it continues to die....come off, die...come off, etc.
Roddy says to dump it right on the string. It was hard to do that in my pond due to the design, etc.
I am hoping that it looks good when it is all done as it is a bit on the ugly side currently. Aquamarine to yellowish colored algae is not my cup of tea! LOL

kdmatrix
05-05-2008, 02:33 PM
Spread it on the string algae not in one place. It chemically reacts with the string algae.I spreaded it around... none come up!

skydiverfloyd
05-05-2008, 06:31 PM
When I dosed mine I put in about 7 lbs for 7k pond. It was coming loose within 5 minutes. I continued to skim it from the top for an hour. Then it slowed down and I let the skimmers and bottom drains clean it up. I was cleaning the filters every 2-3 hours for most of the day and they was cleaning 2 times a day. The water was a little brown colored so I did about 20% water change the next day after treatment. It worked very well with the heavy dose.
Jack

UnkleTim
05-07-2008, 02:29 AM
Today...the water was just gin clear.

farne230
05-07-2008, 09:44 AM
Today...the water was just gin clear.

How long did it take to clear from the time you added the SP?
Bob

GloriaL
06-02-2008, 12:13 PM
I guess I didn't dose heavy enough.... none of dead algae float up. All I see is lot of foam on the surface.

How did you do it? dump it in one spot?

The dammmmn string algae dominate the pond! Block the BD pipe... yikes! I need to kill these suckers!

I am not sure what the difference is but none of the times I have used it has any significant amount floated to the top. I get greenish colored foam in small amounts, but very little of the actual algae floats to the top. And the foam is fine enough that it will flow thru my finest little goldfish net, making it hard to even remove the foam. And this is with doses every where up to 2 x the recommended dose( at 2X dosage the algae actually bleached white, hung on for up to a week, gradually disintegrating!). Mostly my string algae seems to slowly disintegrate over days requiring diligent skimmer basket maintenance and daily bottom drain flushing.

moliken
06-07-2008, 12:36 PM
l used it on string algae and it's fantastic!! will sp work on floating algae? need ideas???

Roddy Conrad
06-07-2008, 07:13 PM
Our internet connection has been down all week long. Just got it fixed today.

Whether something floats to the surface with sodium percarbonate treatments varies widely pond to pond. If there is dead stuff on the bottom of the pond, expect it to rapidly float to the top to easily be skimmed off with nets. If there is a fairly clean bottom and just some algae here and there, the algae should die (if enough SP is added!) and it may or may not float to the top, depending on conditions.

Hydrogen peroxide does the same thing, of course, but requires around 2 quarts per 1000 gallons per dose of the 3&#37; hydrogen peroxide from Walmart to be effective. SP is cheaper and more effective, but usually does increase pH significantly. If the ammonia is below 1 ppm, the high pH should not matter to the fish.

Koryo
06-11-2008, 01:50 AM
I've been using this stuff on and off for some pretty decent results, but I've had to use quite a bit and it started getting expensive (our pond is in the full sun). So last water change, I decided to mix some percarbonate in a metal bowl with some water. I made a strong dilution / paste and applied it directly to the string algae (water level was low so it was a dry application). I let the solution sit for about 20 minutes while i finished changing the water and filling up the pond. The next day, all the string algae was completely gone from the sides (not even that pesky root / attachment point remained). Not only did I use very little percarbonate, but I also killed the algae in one application. Of course this is effective for me since I have a deep pond with vertical walls.:bubblebath:

Floater
06-12-2008, 10:45 PM
Roddy... I did some research on finding the best pricing on sodium percarbonate... I have found that OxiClean (can be found in Sam's Club) is nothing but sodium percarbonate. I bought a 14 pound box for a little over $14 (a $1 a pound sounds pretty cheap).

A question: I have a waterfall being fed by my bio filter that is 25' long with rock slab steps, gravel and rocks. The string algae has taken over. The rock steps are rainbow rock that are normally beautiful earth tones... Now they are green and brown slime from the string algae. To rid the algae from the waterfall I was advised to turn off the filters and sprinke the sodium percarbonate on the string algae and wait 20 minutes, then turn on the filters/waterfall once again. Sounds good... Is it?

(P.S.: My first post... I really like this forum. :cool3: )

Miskatonic
07-04-2008, 06:01 AM
So does OxiClean have Roddy's stamp of approval for using in the pond with fish? I certainly like that price.

BruceP
07-04-2008, 06:13 AM
FLoater..... Welcome to Koiphen :) We'd all love to see pix of your stream, sounds beautiful.
If you treat as you described it will work great. :)

Floater
07-04-2008, 07:40 AM
So does OxiClean have Roddy's stamp of approval for using in the pond with fish? I certainly like that price.Still waiting for a reply from Roddy.

I did try a little of the Oxlclean on the first steps of the stream. I turned off the pump to the waterfall/stream and painted on a slurry of water & Oxyclean on the heaviest string algae. It killed all the string algae within the 20 minutes. Being afraid of contaminating my pond, I cleaned off all of the dead algae and Oxyclean I could. When I turned on the pump, a cloud of remaining debris hit my pond water. It killed the string algae in the pond nearest the stream entrance to the pond.

My koi and comets bottomed for a little while, but then went back to their normal habits. This does not mean Oxyclean is safe to use (very little went into the pond). It just means Oxyclean decimates algae. I will not use it on the rest of the waterfall/stream or pond unless or until I hear that Oxyclean is safe to use under the same dosage as Roddy recommends.

Miskatonic
07-04-2008, 05:42 PM
I just don't feel like spending a boatload of money to buy De-Solve or Green Clean, as it isn't exactly cheap. If there is a cheaper place to buy the percarbonate I'd love to hear it.

UnkleTim
07-04-2008, 08:36 PM
Miskatonic, go to the first page of this thread for details on purchasing it through the chemical store. It is very inexpensive.

Miskatonic
07-04-2008, 10:17 PM
Thanks!

Roddy Conrad
07-05-2008, 01:21 PM
Another really cheap and readily available source of high strength peroxide is 27 weight % hydrogen peroxide sold as Baquacil Oxidizer in spa and swimming pool stores. My local spa store a mile from my house sells gallons of 27% hydrogen peroxide as Baquacil Oxidizer for only $16 per gallon. It does not take much of it to clean up a pond. I suggest trying a cup of the 27% hydrogen peroxide (Baquacil Oxidizer), per each 2000 gallons of pond water per day until the pond and/or algae is satisfactorily clean. Don't keep using it if the pond is cleaned up, a buildup of too much hydrogen peroxide can eventually become a problem to the fish.

nmtsaki
07-05-2008, 01:25 PM
and there is no problem with fish being in the pond while you do this, correct?

Gordon Parr
07-05-2008, 03:07 PM
Another really cheap and readily available source of high strength peroxide is 27 weight % hydrogen peroxide sold as Bauquel Oxidizer in spa and swimming pool stores. My local spa store a mile from my house sells gallons of 27% hydrogen peroxide as Bauquel Oxidizer for only $16 per gallon. It does not take much of it to clean up a pond. I suggest trying a cup of the 27% hydrogen peroxide (Bauquel Oxidizer), per each 2000 gallons of pond water per day until the pond and/or algae is satisfactorily clean. Don't keep using it if the pond is cleaned up, a buildup of too much hydrogen peroxide can eventually become a problem to the fish.

Roddy...I do not claim to know anything about this -- but I am trying to learn!!!

Would you have possibly meant to say Baquacil? Here is a link - http://www.archchemicals.com/Fed/BAQCIL/Products/coreProducts.htm

nmtsaki
07-05-2008, 03:32 PM
second one, not the sanitizer!

Gordon Parr
07-05-2008, 06:16 PM
CORRECT!!!

The problem I am finding is that no one around here that sells the Baquacil products carry the oxidizer!!! I know I can order it online but I sure could use some ASAP!!!

Bill OTMS
07-05-2008, 07:31 PM
G - There's still my sodium percarbonate if you want.

Roddy Conrad
07-05-2008, 08:07 PM
Sorry about the incorrect spelling earlier of Baquacil in the earlier post.

Hydrogen peroxide does not last very long in a pond that needs an oxidizer so the treatment can be done with the fish in the pond as long as the pond is not super clean and algae free.

I suggested a cup a day or 250 ml per day of the 27&#37; peroxide per each 2000 gallons because the fish can stand that concentration okay. And that won't hurt the fish to do every day unless the peroxide is not used up and remains in the water. And it will "boil up" the stuff from the bottom of the pond. A much higher dose can be used if there is enough stuff on the bottom and sides of the pond to consume the hydrogen peroxide.

When the pond is reasonably clean, stop using it. If a cup of the 27% is added per 2000 gallons for 5 days in a row to a clean pond, the fish will be in trouble by the fifth day. But in a really dirty pond, keep doing it until the algae is gone and the bottom is cleaned up.

Miskatonic
07-05-2008, 08:29 PM
What would be a good amount of percarbonate or the peroxide if you just wanted to get rid of the brownish water? I have that fine fluffy string algae along the walls of the liner, and from what I've read I assume that stuff isn't harmful? It does however tend to flake off and float to the surface, but my skimmer takes care of that.

Gordon Parr
07-06-2008, 11:14 AM
G - There's still my sodium percarbonate if you want.

Yes sir ree!!!!

Gordon Parr
07-06-2008, 11:15 AM
[QUOTE=Roddy Conrad;1344799]Sorry about the incorrect spelling earlier of Baquacil in the earlier post.QUOTE]

Sorry, Roddy...no harm meant...just wanted to make sure that was the correct item to look for!!!:yes:

Bill OTMS
07-07-2008, 11:43 AM
Hey Roddy - Is there a shelf life on the C2H8Na4O12? I got some of the Green Clean a couple of years ago. It's been sealed, in the shed for the whole time. Gave some to Gordon to conquer the Green Menace and 16 ounces later...still green (his pond is 11000 gal). Your wisdom is respectfully requested. Thanks -

Bill

Roddy Conrad
07-07-2008, 01:39 PM
A single dose of one pound of Green Clean in a 11,000 gallons pond is not enough to make a significant difference. Think 2 pounds a day for 5 days in a row for a significant difference in a 11,000 gallon pond full of green algae.

It shouldn't go bad sitting dry on the shelf in the bottle.

Bill OTMS
07-07-2008, 02:58 PM
Got it. Thanks, Roddy.

waterlover
07-08-2008, 01:01 AM
Did you ever spill hydrogen peroxide in a clean sink? There's no fizz on a clean surface. But as it goes down the drain (where presumably there's some hidden crud) you can hear it fizz. Put some SP on a wet dirty spot and you should get a reaction if it's still good. Seems reasonable anyway.

Gordon Parr
07-08-2008, 01:36 PM
A single dose of one pound of Green Clean in a 11,000 gallons pond is not enough to make a significant difference. Think 2 pounds a day for 5 days in a row for a significant difference in a 11,000 gallon pond full of green algae.

It shouldn't go bad sitting dry on the shelf in the bottle.

I take it that 1 cup is equal to 1 pound?

I finally found someone nearby that sells it...am going now to pick up.

Thanks, Roddy!!!

redmanor
07-08-2008, 07:53 PM
Roddy - I am very interested in a response from you to miskatonics question about the brown water.

I purchased the sp a few weeks ago but have not used it yet. Now from reading all 23 pages of this thread, I am going to does my 3200g pond with one 2lb jar. (I have 4 on hand) Do you think that will be sufficient to clear my brownish water and a little bit of string algae around. I also have a one layer rock bottom and sides which I am sure have some junk around them. Do you think the 2lb jar would be fine or should I use the 1lb per 1k gal formula mentioned by others and be safe? I have plants, Japanese Trap door snail and 17 koi. Do you see any problems with the snails? I have plenty of the blanket stuff for them to eat.
Thanks so much!!! I will wait for your response before dosing. I have company coming (parents) on the 18th and would love for them to see a pond without a brown tint.
Vicki

Roddy Conrad
07-08-2008, 08:23 PM
Roddy - I am very interested in a response from you to miskatonics question about the brown water.

I purchased the sp a few weeks ago but have not used it yet. Now from reading all 23 pages of this thread, I am going to does my 3200g pond with one 2lb jar. (I have 4 on hand) Do you think that will be sufficient to clear my brownish water and a little bit of string algae around. I also have a one layer rock bottom and sides which I am sure have some junk around them. Do you think the 2lb jar would be fine or should I use the 1lb per 1k gal formula mentioned by others and be safe? I have plants, Japanese Trap door snail and 17 koi. Do you see any problems with the snails? I have plenty of the blanket stuff for them to eat.
Thanks so much!!! I will wait for your response before dosing. I have company coming (parents) on the 18th and would love for them to see a pond without a brown tint.
Vicki

If you have a rock bottom and a 3200 gallon pond for the first dose I would drop a complete 2 pound container into the pond and be ready with a net the first hour or so to lift out all the garbage that the SP fizzes up to the surface.

Then depending on how that goes, if you want to clean it some more, I would wait at least a day before adding more, and drop the dose to half a 2 pound jar and see if that does or does not adequately clean the pond to your aesthetic standards of pond viewing.

Gordon Parr
07-08-2008, 09:41 PM
I found the Baquacil Oxidizer locally - $14.95 per gallon!!! Woo Hoo!!!

Will begin the 6 cup treatment (12k gallons) for the next few days!!!

Brutuscz
07-09-2008, 11:45 PM
Roddy... I did some research on finding the best pricing on sodium percarbonate... I have found that OxiClean (can be found in Sam's Club) is nothing but sodium percarbonate. I bought a 14 pound box for a little over $14 (a $1 a pound sounds pretty cheap).

A question: I have a waterfall being fed by my bio filter that is 25' long with rock slab steps, gravel and rocks. The string algae has taken over. The rock steps are rainbow rock that are normally beautiful earth tones... Now they are green and brown slime from the string algae. To rid the algae from the waterfall I was advised to turn off the filters and sprinke the sodium percarbonate on the string algae and wait 20 minutes, then turn on the filters/waterfall once again. Sounds good... Is it?

(P.S.: My first post... I really like this forum. :cool3: )

Did we ever find out if Oxiclean from Sams club had Roddy's stamp of approval?? I'm not doing anything until he says it's safe. Also....what is the recommended dosage for a green water (pea soup) pond?? Is it also 1lb per 1,000gal??? Thanks Roddy...Great information!!!!

Roddy Conrad
07-10-2008, 08:08 AM
I don't know for sure whether Oxiclean is generic sodium percarbonate, or has other ingredients formulated into the product which could be detrimental to fish health. Besides that issue, there are numerous products sold under the Oxiclean label that may have ingredients toxic to fish health, so I am wary of suggesting the use of Oxiclean in fish ponds.

For a green water pond, a pound per 1000 gallons of sodium percarbonate should be rapidly utilyzed and therefore be okay for fish health. Just don't use that dose rate on a relatively clean algae free pond.

farne230
07-10-2008, 09:08 AM
Roddy, I have read much of this forum, but not all. I appreciate as others do your contributions to our hobby, keep up the good work.

My questions is, do you recommend a dosage or treatment measure for those interested in maintaining a good 1/2 inch growth of good green algae, yet keep clean clear water without the growth of bad or long algae growth. I mention this because I have been unsuccessful keeping all algae off the walls of my concrete pond all season long. I used this SP treatment to eliminate all algae for periods up to three weeks and now I see increased growth and so far good algae instead of hair algae. I know it is coming because my pump skimmers are picking up algae in the strainers,as well as my koi are contributing algae as they graze. I believe the algae grazing is a healthy measure for the koi, since I can not keep all algae out of the pond unless I keep dosing every few weeks (which I would rather not). Your comments please.
Bob

krandy
07-10-2008, 09:50 AM
Hi Roddy, I wish I had read this topic a few months ago. It would have saved a lot of time and money. My question though for the future is that my ponds have lilies and parrots feather flourishing. Wil the SP kill them also?

Thanks for all of the information.

Roddy Conrad
07-10-2008, 07:36 PM
I do NOT routinely use either sodium percarbonate or hydrogen peroxide in my fish ponds. I like most ponders prefer to grow some algae for good fish health, and maintain the ponds to provide some side algae growth but do not allow it to become a problem. The issue is self correcting in all my ponds by mid June in my local Charleston WV climate, by that time the fish eat the algae as soon as it forms long enough to get into their mouths, and as most of you know I maintain a high stocking density of very large koi. I use hydrogen peroxide or sodium percarbonate to clean up my ponds in the spring of winter filth, and to kill the heavy spring growth of stringy algae so the fish and filtration systems can gain early control and have a problem free ponding season. The further north and the colder the climate the worse the string algae problem is to control, and the longer in the spring aids may be needed to gain algae control.

Sodium percarbonate or hydrogen peroxide will not harm lilies. I doubt parrots feather would be harmed but really don't know, my fish would kill parrots feather rapidly anyway by eating all the roots.

krandy
07-10-2008, 08:13 PM
Thanks Roddy....my parrots feather roots are protected by rocks in the planters that are too big for the Koi to move. My pond is pretty much in balance in just in the past week but does have some residual junk on the bottom and in the rocks of the raceway.....the water is slightle off yellow to brown.

Thanks again for the great information

Brutuscz
07-30-2008, 02:52 PM
Roddy..another question. I found a product in my local pool store(namco) called BQ shock....it is 27&#37; hydrogen peroxide and the rest is water. It is sold by the gallon. I want to use it for my pea soup green water. How much do you recommend for a 16,000gal pond...and how slowly should I add it? Thanks again...you information is invaluable!!!

Brutuscz
07-30-2008, 11:50 PM
bump...I want to know weather to buy this stuff, and how much I need??? Thanks!!

krandy
07-31-2008, 09:47 PM
Well ..... i used the Bacaquicil tonite as the sting algae had become unbearable. I used 6 cups and watched the algae and junk riise to the surface. Amazing, so far the fish are okay and the algae has been reduced by 30%. I will go at it again tomorrow until it is gone. By the way the parrots feather is kind of shaky but it is worth the sacrifice.

krandy
08-04-2008, 11:00 AM
Well, I finished my ER experiment to eliminate the string algae 100&#37;. The fish are doing great, eating like horses and all of the parrots feather and lilies are fine. I used the entire gallon over the course of four days and had to net out all of the junk but the water is crystal clear and I am reestablishing my bacteria.
Thanks again for the advice.

DaveB
08-08-2008, 05:12 AM
Hello All
Last year After taking six hours to remove the beads and clean the bottom of from my Bubblebead 3 filter. ( found a lot of very small snails mixed with dirt)I tried using sodium percarbonate instead.
After emptying the BB. I waited about a minute when reffilling before adding the SP into the skimmer basket. Once the filter was full I switched off the pump again and closed the drain valve preventing the BB from emptying. I allowed 30 miniutes for the SD to do its job( In the hope that the dirt would be lifted off the bottom of the BB and be trapped in the beads.The bubblebead was then backflushed a few times and then ran clear to waste before returning to the pond. It is difficult to know how succesfull this was but was intending to carry out this proceddure a couple of time a year ( spring and autum)
Any comments on this practice would be appreciated.
best Regards DaveB

Roddy Conrad
08-08-2008, 07:46 AM
I regularly add a quart of the 27% hydrogen peroxide to my Sacremento Koi Advantage Glass filter to clean up the glass media. The filter is bypassed and soaked overnight to clean up the glass media. This filter is for mechanical filtration only, and the strong hydrogen peroxide is for the purpose of cleaning out the biofilm so water can go through the media better for mechanical filtration. For that purpose, it works well.

Adding strong hydrogen peroxide directly at high strength to a bubble bead filter is expected to destroy the desirable biofilm that does the biofiltration. If there is enough biofiltration elsewhere in the system, okay. And if the bubble bead filter has become useless and requires chemical cleaning, okay. But be aware the filter may need to be recycled for biofiltration. This does not happen to the filters at lthe ower hydrogen peroxide concentrations that are safe for the fish in the pond.

DaveB
08-08-2008, 02:37 PM
Roddy
Cheers for the reply
Fortunately my BB is on the skimmer line and is not the main source of biological filtration, but for removing suspended fines ie (polishing the water). However I have taken your points into consideration as I believe some biofim is required to improve the efficency of removing the fines so I will have to be careful. I only used approximately 400grams of SP for 30 minutes, perhaps you consider this too much for too long. It is my intention to carry out routine this on a monthly/bi monthly basis. perhaps I should reduce the amount of SP or perhaps the time allowed especially as very little debre will have settled on the bottom of the BB within a month.
Your thoughts again are appreciated
Best Regards daveB

Davkoi
09-01-2008, 11:57 AM
Hydrogen peroxide does the same thing, of course, but requires around 2 quarts per 1000 gallons per dose of the 3% hydrogen peroxide

can i use 30% hydrogen peroxide ? because i can't find 3% h202 .
if i use 30% hydrogen peroxide . so the dosage is 0.2 quarts per 1000 gallons . right , doc ?

thanks doc

Roddy Conrad
09-01-2008, 09:40 PM
100 to 200 ml of the 27&#37; hydrogen peroxide per 1000 gallons every few days in an algae ridden pond usually brings the algae under control. But do not continue that dose rate when the algae is under control.

DaveB
09-02-2008, 05:43 AM
Dear All
After being successful when using the above to clean the bottom of my BB3 out I have now turned my thoughts to the bottom drain pipework and wondering if there could be anything in there and would it be worth running some sp through and leaving it for 30 miniutes or so. I have not got a blockage but thought there might be some dirt accumulated after 10 years or so. I am little worried about the risks of anything getting back to the pond, so I thought I might put a strong mix of pp afterwards just incase before flushing everyting to waste via the vortex,before putting back on line to the pond.
Your thoughts on this would be appreciated
Best Regards daveB

Davkoi
09-03-2008, 12:26 AM
hello Doc ,

Do i need to bypass my bakki shower ? how long ?

Thanks

brians
09-04-2008, 04:20 PM
daveb

if you treat with pp after using sodium percarbonate will not the residual hydrogen peroxide neutralise the pp ?.


Brians

Roddy Conrad
09-04-2008, 09:11 PM
hello Doc ,

Do i need to bypass my bakki shower ? how long ?

Thanks

I do not bypass filters during hydrogen peroxide doses for algae control, and don't have any problems with that practice. But if you are worried about the bakki shower, bypass it for 4 hours, usually all the peroxide is gone in 4 hours if there was algae present when it was dosed.

Roddy Conrad
09-04-2008, 09:13 PM
daveb

if you treat with pp after using sodium percarbonate will not the residual hydrogen peroxide neutralise the pp ?.


Brians
If there is residual hydrogen peroxide, it will destroy the PP until all the peroxide is gone.

DaveB
09-05-2008, 06:45 AM
daveb

if you treat with pp after using sodium percarbonate will not the residual hydrogen peroxide neutralise the pp ?.


Brians
Yes I agree it would. However I have now carried out the above process and flushed the bottom drain pipe to waste several times removing all traces of sp ( or at least I thought I did) before adding the pp. I found very little debris in the bottom drain line ( not bad after running for 11 years) but managed to add 20 to 30 points to my ORP readings when things settled down again.Now in hind sight the pp was probably a bit overkill and next year I probably won't bother.
Thanks once again for the Idea. Dave

wfhsdemons
11-11-2008, 10:46 AM
After reading through all these pages I thought it was time for a Bump. Any new observations or instructions for using the chemicals? Good or Bad ?

cindy
02-18-2009, 03:51 PM
reading and bumping, its that time

kdmatrix
02-18-2009, 04:03 PM
Gosh! I hope I do not have to fight with the string algae this year!...... I can see and feel it's coming!...

cindy
02-18-2009, 04:06 PM
if so, I'd be ordering the sodium percarbonate to have on hand. I haven't had this problem with the new pond but the question has come up.

cindy
02-18-2009, 04:07 PM
0.6 pounds per 1000 gallons

kdmatrix
02-18-2009, 04:07 PM
I still have 3 bottles left....

Norm Walsh
03-10-2009, 03:04 AM
:bump:

UnkleTim
03-10-2009, 01:41 PM
good stuff

waterlover
03-10-2009, 02:51 PM
I'm still using the 50 lb. bag I bought last year. Cleans up the pond and cleans my white laundry better than chlorine bleach (all the white underwear seems to have been treated with something "to keep it white" that precludes using chlorine bleach. C.Bleach just turns it yellow.) It's cheaper than OxyClean and doesn't have perfume.

Found another use for it. The grout in my tile shower had turned orange with mold. Didn't want to subject myself to chlorine bleach fumes. Didn't want to subject the tile to an acid treatment. Made a slurry with a cup of SP and warm water. Wet enough that when I slopped it around with an old toothbrush and left it to sit for a half hour, it foamed up like a root beer float. A little scrubbing and it was as good as new. Rinses right away. No smell. No fumes.

kdmatrix
03-10-2009, 05:19 PM
waterlover - does it work as "teeth whitening" too? Wondering... :eek1::confused: That would save a lot of $$$$ :punk1:

geraldlim
03-10-2009, 06:18 PM
waterlover - does it work as "teeth whitening" too? Wondering... :eek1::confused: That would save a lot of $$$$ :punk1:

Cheapskate!