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koidoc
01-04-2006, 08:37 PM
OK Ryukins
Ryukin body should be egg shaped.The depth of body should be about 3/4 the length and then another 1/3 of that depth in height of dorsal. This has all paired fins. The paired Caudal fins should be at least about equal to the length of the body. The two parts should be split almost to the peduncle and the tips should be round.The pelvic, and anal fins should be equal in length and size. Long and flowing are better. Pectorals should have similar shape and almost as big. All best to match in color.
The Ryukin is special from other goldfish in the hump on its shoulder between head and dorsal. More pronounced is better. This hump is generally more pronounced on Ryukin of red, white or both. Many other colors like Red/Black, Tricolor, and calico tend to have smaller humps due to genetics. I have found all reds or red/whites compete the best. The tendency now is to see more veiltail and the longer finnage is preferred for show points, even though some of the new short tail varieties have a nice look.
These are also judged on deportment, so the Caudal needs to be carried well when swimming.
Color should be sharp and deep and symetrical.
When using point system you have
20%Body
20%Color
20% Finnage
20% Hump, and the way the tail is carried
20% Deportment and conditioning
This last one is basically how it shows itself off to the Judges. Is it alert with fins out or is finnage down and lying on bottom? This is what I mentioned on another thread of how important it is to have a tank mate at shows and have the right type to show off koi
The conditioning has to do with the fourth 20% as well as it will carry over to finnage carry.
This is where proteins in diet are important to muscle deportment.

JPR
01-04-2006, 08:39 PM
I like the look of these fish- shape wise. Are the extreme humps like you see on some of the big one, and notched heads ( behind the heads) more or less desirable?

koidoc
01-04-2006, 08:55 PM
Even at young Ryukin should have a crease. Like the top two but these are no where near enough for adults. These are not like koi Jim. The more gross the crease and hump the better. Large Show Ryukin almost look like they have a beak or parrot face. This is what they look for in Breeding. I brought Tomesabas back from Japan. Taneka breeds them with his shiros and kujakus.
Gunn got four from me and sent to Thailand to breed into his Ryukin for color and hump. The Tomesabas have larger humps because of less genetic to do double tail. Tomesabas are Ryukin with single veil tail. So this is like breeding back to magoi for body. Here is my female Tomesaba which has a great hump which would be good for adult Ryukin

Ronin-Koi
01-04-2006, 09:25 PM
Hey Art, thanks for starting a thread on Ryukin! :cool: As you've described for the tosakin, I really like how the graceful flowing tail contrasts and balances the large muscular hump of the ryukin.

You've described some of the ideal characteristics, but to use examples would be most helpful. Of the fish posted so far, can you tell us what are desirable or less desirable features on them? Which would be ranked highest in a show?

I know you give your honest opinion on koi, so could you do a review of my 2 fish? I am truly not fishing (err..) for compliments here. I would like to know if there are things that you see about these two that could be improved from a show perspective? I would like to move up in quality as I add more ryukin to my tank.

You mention protein is important for ryukin humps. I want to get my black and red to grow its hump as large as its genetics will allow. Is blood worms the way to go?

- Wayne, likes ryukins!

koidoc
01-04-2006, 10:05 PM
Wayne
First you look at body for that egg shape with the pronounced stomach area. On mine you see this on the first two but not the calico. Red/white is best body.
On yours the Red/White is perfect. The small one has just too smooth of body
Then look at color. Red/White and Red/Black are both good. Calico has less shine and the red is not as thick as it should be.
Color on both of yours is good.
Then finnage. On mine the tail and dorsal are in good proportion and are carried well on the first two of mine. Not carried well on calico. Your first one is good but the red/black is not quite long enough and head crease will always be small for show.
Then humps. My first two are OK for small fish and the Calico will never have it.
Your first is perfect.
Deportment is good on my two first and your first.
So if all five fish were shown.
#1 Red/WHite Yours
#2 Red/White mine
#3 Red/Black mine
#4 Calico mine
#5 Red/Black yours
Your red black and my calico will be play fish. The only two that will show for awhile are the two Red Whites

DarleneD
01-04-2006, 10:55 PM
How about these 3?

koidoc
01-04-2006, 11:06 PM
Darlene
The first is the best. Best body, hump, finnage and carry.
The last is second. Very good color but not as full as the first in body. Does carry well. Preference is for the longer fin.
Third is the second one. You can see the fins are down. Body not deep. Hump not good. Dorsal folded and worse for color.
Two keepers and one for fun

DarleneD
01-04-2006, 11:11 PM
Third one is the youngest.

The picture of the second one is from May, I think. I need to get a more current picture.

Of the 3 pictured here, she has the best personality. Of course many people don't think goldies have personalities ...

DarleneD
01-04-2006, 11:14 PM
Ok here are more ...

koidoc
01-04-2006, 11:17 PM
All our very nice, great fins, but here is a good example of how the calicos do not get the hump and why it is hard to find one for competition. On the point system the hump is %20.

Ronin-Koi
01-04-2006, 11:35 PM
Art, excellent. Thanks for evaluating my fish, and comparing them to yours. I am hoping that the black and red is just young, and that the body standards for ryukin come along as it gets older. If that hump doesn't grow, do you think we can find a silicone implant for him? :D: The hump was the only thing that I was not wild about on him.

I think the much smaller black/red is going to catch up size-wise to the red/white pretty quickly. The black is much more aggressive at eating and swims circles around the big one. If I throw in a few pellets, the little one almost always gets the first 5 pellets that sink. Then his mouth is full, and even though he tries to get more, he can't fit anymore into his mouth. Then I can put in a few for the red/white. Other than separating them or hand feeding them, I don't know how to get more of the food to the red/white.

Darlene, cool ryukin! In terms of overall ranking, I agree with art. But on color alone, I really like your #3 (edit: from the first set, just now saw the second set). Nice deep red and very white.

- Wayne, Ronin-Ryukin.

Ronin-Koi
01-05-2006, 12:54 AM
Other than the information Art posted above, the only other decent "standard" to describe ryukins that I have seen was at the Neo Ranchu website. Just to add another perspective, here is their description of a preferred ryukin:

"Our RYUKIN standard and classification method is as follows:
1. Head: The head of the Ryukin should be as small as possible. It must be shaped like a triangle.


2. Body: The Ryukin's body should be short and circular shaped. It must have an extremely high and thick back. The back should have a smooth curve.


3. Tail and Fins: Both long tailed and short tailed Ryukin are acceptable. For both types, however, the tails need to be straight, have NO folds, and when the fish is at rest, the fins have to be fully opened. They must not be clamped or folded down around the caudal peduncle. The tail and caudal peduncle must attach at an angle between 30 to 45 degrees. The highest point of the tail mt not be higher than the highest point of the dorsal fin. When viewed from above, the ideal tail should appear open like opened butterfly wings, not closed together.

Dorsal Fin: The dorsal fin must be strong. When it rest, the dorsal fin should remain straight and erect.

Tail covering: When viewed from above, the tail should look flexible and appear to push forward slightly when at rest. When viewing the Ryukin from the side, the tail must have to cover the anal fins.


4. Anal fins: Anal fins must be completely straight, equal in size, balanced, and and ideally should be twin. BUT, a single anal fin is acceptable as well, as long as it is located at the center of the Ryukin's body and not off to one side or the other. It also must be completely straight.


5. Swimming and balance: The Ryukin must swim straight and at an even keel. The head must not tilt up or down when the fish is at rest.


6. Joint of the tail and caudal peduncle: The joint has to align to the upper half of the body, but still must be well balanced when swimming. The joint needs to be close to the body as possible. A Ryukin with the point that is not close to body will classified as lower than show class for certain.


Classification: We classify all of our fish evaluating the entire fish (head, body, tail, swimming and balance, etc.) not just by focusing on individual parts. But, ALL show class fish (show III, II or I) must not have any folded tails or fins. Therefore, a show class Ryukin must have a small, triangular shaped head, a high and smooth back, and an ideal tail. AAA and below fish have at least one defect in these areas."


- Wayne, is pretty picky without knowing all these standards. Now he will take forever picking new fish.

Ronin-Koi
01-05-2006, 10:10 PM
Guess I can't talk bad about Tommy any more.
Someone buy the Mini Tosakin? Having seen your beautiful tosakin, I wouldn't mind having one eventually. But regarding the current mini-tosakin, I can not figure out the photos -- what is that white strip on the side of the fish? Is it reflection off of fin, or side of fish body? The white moves from right side pic to left side pic, so I don't think it is a physical stripe on the fish... is it? I keep staring, but can not figure it out.

http://goldfishnet.com/ItemDetails.asp?i=612

Ok, so who got the red and white ryukin? It was not me. My tank is not ready for any more fish yet.

http://goldfishnet.com/ItemDetails.asp?i=620

- Wayne, thinks whoever got the R/W ryukin got a nice one.

koidoc
01-05-2006, 11:09 PM
The Tosakin is OK. The white line is a wave in water and reflection. Still good fish but %40 smaller than mine.
The large veiltail is nice but on point sytem it can't compete. So alot money for non Show. Look at the Dorsal. It folds from both sides. Also note the white patch on the forehead that will need to be treated. I bought mine from Tommy for same price. It has a single anal which we worked out later but very disappointed. Give you better deal on mine. When I asked him and told him for that price, I expected perfect he said if perfect it would be $500. Now I have to ask and not assume. This is why DVD better.

Toragoi
04-05-2008, 03:12 AM
Wow....there really are Ryukin fans here at KP! I know this is an old thread, but I want to add my two new ones to it and inquire about the others posted on this thread. How have the other fish developed since 2006? How about some updates?

Here are my two, 5"-6". For making my first purchase of Ryukin, did I do good? I just couldn't take my eyes off of them when I found them....
348233

348234

348235

348236

dick benbow
08-31-2008, 11:59 AM
thanks Art, nice to see you posting.....As I too have been drawn into goldfish,
I found myself first attracted to these guys. What's the best gallonage per fish rule to achieve maximum growth. I started with mine when they were brown and smaller than a penny.....

BruceP
08-31-2008, 01:57 PM
Dick,,,,,, 20 gallons per fish is what most recommend. Of course, more is always better. :) Two biggies in a 55 seems to work very well.

PS: But, having said that,, FILTRATION< FILTRATION<FILTRATION, is the name of the game. Quality over quantity. :D: