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avorancher
03-25-2009, 09:00 PM
I have a nice 1/4" carpet of algae growing on the sides of the pond. Never had string algae and sounds like I don't want any. Had green water last summer that UV took care of right away. But... last summer and this year I have tiny bits of suspended algae floating in the water. It is so small that my Nexus K1 static filters nor my AlphaBead seem to catch it. I've tried a 100 micron filter sock but the algae just dissolves and goes through it. Same with trying to net it out... it just dissolves when I pick up the net.

Water temp is 65F and I'll put on a shade cloth when the temps reach 70F.

Here is a photo (BDs are at 7 ft. depth). Looks good at first, but when you look close the koi look like they are in a freshly shaken snow globe.

Luck
03-25-2009, 09:25 PM
I think it is the blanket algae you're seeing...the fish are hungry and eat it and bits and pieces come off. Then they chew it and more comes out of the gills. Nice pond BTW:cool:

Gordon Parr
03-25-2009, 10:35 PM
Ditto on the nice pond!!!

lukef
03-26-2009, 01:02 AM
have fun bookmark
http://plants.ifas.ufl.edu/guide/2algae.html

LilHoover
03-26-2009, 01:45 AM
What are your phosphate and nitrAte levels?

avorancher
03-26-2009, 02:24 AM
What are your phosphate and nitrAte levels?

pH 8.2
KH 107
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates <5

Phosphates 5 ppm several months ago but not a test I do every week. I'll test it tomorrow. Good thinking.

stephen
03-26-2009, 02:38 AM
That water is absolutely beautiful :cheer::cool::punk1::clap::yahoo::yahoo:

andrew davis
03-26-2009, 03:07 AM
Its hard to imagine more gin clear water.

On the algae, perhaps its worth having a peak at a drop of water with a microscope set at x125, just to be sure if its algae, or fine sediment from the algae, which the uv has nuked you are noticing. mebbe, estimate a micron size...

Perhaps there is a micron mesh which can do a once and for all clearance of that size gunk once in a while. Dousing the pond with koi clay might round up the pesky l'il particulates

Regards, andy
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/adavisus/
http://community.webshots.com/user/adavisus

avorancher
03-26-2009, 03:25 AM
Andy, I tried a large dose of koi clay this past weekend and it did knock it down quite a bit. I did another dose yesterday but it didn't do much. I must have gotten all I could get with the first dose, but there is still a lot left.

Yes, it looks good from a distance but up close it is like a miniature blizzard. Last summer I blamed everything on it being a new pond. Is there a time limit on how long I can use that excuse?

andrew davis
03-26-2009, 03:55 AM
Hi Steve,
On a clay pond in the Winter months sometimes a thermocline shows itself, the most amazing glistening layer of fine particulates wafting in a perfect layer between the cold and the colder layer, quite bedazzling.

Not what you would like to hear, I have no idea what it would take to pick each miniscule particle out, but here's a guess, when you applied the koi clay if your pumps were running, the clay was filtered out before the bulk of the particulates had the chance to be 'hugged' by the clay

Mebbe, switch the pumps off and give the clay more time to do the dirty with the stubborn stuff, use less koi clay at a time, disperse it early in the morning to catch the convection currents of the sun through the day, switch pumps on to filter it out overnight?

Regards, andy
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/adavisus/
http://community.webshots.com/user/adavisus

CHICHI
03-26-2009, 04:59 AM
It and it`s relations are Menaces :eek1:

I used to pump my Water through 3 inch thick Water Polishing Pads :yes:

moliken
03-26-2009, 07:49 AM
is not that ph a bit high? i have that in my saltwater tank!

avorancher
03-26-2009, 12:25 PM
OK, I did a phosphate test this morning and the result is .5 ppm (not 5 ppm as I previously stated). So that is pretty low and all other parameters are constant. Moliken, unfortunately that is a normal pH for this area and about the same as tap water.

Other factors that I failed to mention. Salt level is .15&#37; (gradually coming down from .3% in February). Daily feeding has started. 30 koi in 14,000 gallons but oldest one is nisai so the fish load is still light. ORP value is around 270mv. Foam Fractionator is gathering about a quart of foam in the early mornings.

I don't think I'd be able to find a speck under the scope... there is probably less than 100 specks in a cup of water. Finding some in a drop of water would be harder than winning the lottery. It is only when looking through several feet of water that you notice it. I might be able to net some out with a ultra-fine net later today.

Andy, fascinating info about the layering. Not sure I would want to cut off my moving bed filters for any length of time at these temps, but maybe reducing their flow and pond circulation would help.

Lunatoons
03-26-2009, 05:52 PM
So what about string algae? A KOA recommended sodium percarbonate but I didn't get instructions on how much or how to apply it...I have 2 waterfalls and a stream going into a 6000 gallon pond. About 35 koi and 2 goldfish. Any advice? I have string algae all up and down the stream, been pulling it out as much as possible and using liquid barley, but it doesn't seem to be helping much. Bead filter and vortex are slowing down as a result, I've had to exchange bioballs in the vortex twice now because they fill up with algae...thanks for your ideas! Vicki

LilHoover
03-27-2009, 02:27 AM
So is it particulate matter or algae? With low phosphate, low nitrAte, perhaps it is the turnover rate that is too fast--is the problem not algae specifically, but all particles that don't have enough time to settle out?

By the way, your pond is stunning.

avorancher
03-27-2009, 04:44 PM
So is it particulate matter or algae? With low phosphate, low nitrAte, perhaps it is the turnover rate that is too fast--is the problem not algae specifically, but all particles that don't have enough time to settle out?

By the way, your pond is stunning.

I think it is some form of algae or plant.

Was able to net some out and transfer to a slide today. Wish I had a video adapter because it is rather pretty at magnification. Could see it a 40x, but start seeing details at 100x to 400x. Four or Five small dark green globs with about 20 segmented tenticles reaching in all directions. The segments looked like the bog plant called horsetail, which I have near the pond. I've never had string algae, but I would imagine it looks a little like this only a lot larger.

Funny, while looking at it under the scope, I noticed movement. Something that looks like a single Chilodonella was moving up and down the tenticles. Didn't move like it was swimming though... more like a bug climbing up and down a plant leaf. It never left the "algae" and finally stopped moving about 15 minutes or so.

CHICHI
03-27-2009, 05:20 PM
I think it is some form of algae or plant.

Was able to net some out and transfer to a slide today. Wish I had a video adapter because it is rather pretty at magnification. Could see it a 40x, but start seeing details at 100x to 400x. Four or Five small dark green globs with about 20 segmented tenticles reaching in all directions. The segments looked like the bog plant called horsetail, which I have near the pond. I've never had string algae, but I would imagine it looks a little like this only a lot larger.

Funny, while looking at it under the scope, I noticed movement. Something that looks like a single Chilodonella was moving up and down the tenticles. Didn't move like it was swimming though... more like a bug climbing up and down a plant leaf. It never left the "algae" and finally stopped moving about 15 minutes or so.

Did they look like any of these ?



http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.viewsfromscience.com/media/photos/Algal_Slide_Sheet.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.viewsfromscience.com/documents/webpages/led_fluorescence_p5.html&usg=__0cM4JBVSCoVpZ0sbZcBTpfQGDCY=&h=2250&w=706&sz=164&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=5_xul5RzFuUK_M:&tbnh=150&tbnw=47&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpond%2Balgae%2Bslide%2Bimages%26hl%3D en%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1

MORE :yes: http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://staff.pas.k12.mn.us/BearfieldD/pages/microscopeimages/2006/p5/DanikaJessica.jpg&imgrefurl=http://staff.pas.k12.mn.us/BearfieldD/pages/mscpeimages.htm&usg=__12kG54tzJfaT6wciidLI84aidsY=&h=480&w=640&sz=36&hl=en&start=7&um=1&tbnid=3MbsP64oqwA00M:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpond%2Balgae%2Bslide%2Bimages%26hl%3D en%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1

ron2424
03-27-2009, 07:23 PM
I'm having the same exact problem in Calabasas. I have a lot of pine trees that are dropping really fine pollen partcles right now. I have placed some fine batting in the skimmers to try and filter the pollen and algae out. It is getting better, but is till have the snow globe deal. It seems that the fish are munching on the sides and bottom dislodging the carpet algae. Because my temps are rising slowly, I have been light feeding once a day with wheat germ based food, but the kids are restless and want more food.

avorancher
03-27-2009, 09:36 PM
Did they look like any of these ?



http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.viewsfromscience.com/media/photos/Algal_Slide_Sheet.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.viewsfromscience.com/documents/webpages/led_fluorescence_p5.html&usg=__0cM4JBVSCoVpZ0sbZcBTpfQGDCY=&h=2250&w=706&sz=164&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=5_xul5RzFuUK_M:&tbnh=150&tbnw=47&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpond%2Balgae%2Bslide%2Bimages%26hl%3D en%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1

MORE :yes: http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://staff.pas.k12.mn.us/BearfieldD/pages/microscopeimages/2006/p5/DanikaJessica.jpg&imgrefurl=http://staff.pas.k12.mn.us/BearfieldD/pages/mscpeimages.htm&usg=__12kG54tzJfaT6wciidLI84aidsY=&h=480&w=640&sz=36&hl=en&start=7&um=1&tbnid=3MbsP64oqwA00M:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpond%2Balgae%2Bslide%2Bimages%26hl%3D en%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1

A lot like several of the "pond algae" in the 2nd link. I guess it is just normal, run of the mill, everyday pond algae. How disappointing. Now, how does an anal person eliminate it and obtain the holy grail of invisible water?

CHICHI
03-27-2009, 09:56 PM
A lot like several of the "pond algae" in the 2nd link. I guess it is just normal, run of the mill, everyday pond algae. How disappointing. Now, how does an anal person eliminate it and obtain the holy grail of invisible water?

UVS/O3 External/Remote Pond Intervention would be my choice :yes: innocuous approaches I have implemented have consisted of "Barley Straw Extract" supplemented with "Shading"

Clays impact temporarily but clog up all Fines Filter media IMO :yes:

A more Aggressive in system approach is outlined here :yes:

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53618&page=28&highlight=kill+green

BruceP
03-28-2009, 08:10 AM
Steve.... I had that problem with our 700g indoor tank. Tried whatever I could think of to filter it out to no avail. Then all of a sudden it disappeared.... two years after start up...Still dont know what causes it. Now our 1000g tank has the same thing but it's only a year old........ I keep waiting... lol :D:

CHICHI
03-28-2009, 08:42 AM
Steve.... I had that problem with our 700g indoor tank. Tried whatever I could think of to filter it out to no avail. Then all of a sudden it disappeared.... two years after start up...Still dont know what causes it. Now our 1000g tank has the same thing but it's only a year old........ I keep waiting... lol :D:

Some hypothesis as to why by Norm meck :yes:

http://users.vcnet.com/rrenshaw/GRENH2O.html

avorancher
03-28-2009, 12:38 PM
Steve.... I had that problem with our 700g indoor tank. Tried whatever I could think of to filter it out to no avail. Then all of a sudden it disappeared.... two years after start up...Still dont know what causes it. Now our 1000g tank has the same thing but it's only a year old........ I keep waiting... lol :D:

Now THAT is the solution I've been waiting to hear. So I can use the "new pond syndrome" excuse for another year. :yes:

Seriously, great link ChiChi... I'll have to do a more thorough read later. As you can see by the photo, my water is quite clear even without the UV so far this year... it is just all those ##!! pieces of suspended algae. I'll probably fire up the UVs soon and put on the shade cover. If that bug I found turns out to be the start of Chilodonella, I'll be hitting the pond with PP anyway.

CHICHI
03-28-2009, 12:44 PM
Now THAT is the solution I've been waiting to hear. So I can use the "new pond syndrome" excuse for another year. :yes:

Seriously, great link ChiChi... I'll have to do a more thorough read later. As you can see by the photo, my water is quite clear even without the UV so far this year... it is just all those ##!! pieces of suspended algae. I'll probably fire up the UVs soon and put on the shade cover. If that bug I found turns out to be the start of Chilodonella, I'll be hitting the pond with PP anyway.

Did it look like this ? :D: ;)

avorancher
03-28-2009, 04:39 PM
Yes it looked like Chilodonella but I only found one and instead of swimming, it was moving up and down the algae shafts as if feeding on the algae. I'll keep a watch out because I know Chilodenella can multiply quickly. I'm thinking that I just lucked out and found one in the drop of water with the algae sample... I'm sure there is all types of parasites in miniscule numbers in every pond. I did scrapes on 3 koi last month and found nothing.

CHICHI
03-28-2009, 05:26 PM
Yes it looked like Chilodonella but I only found one and instead of swimming, it was moving up and down the algae shafts as if feeding on the algae. I'll keep a watch out because I know Chilodenella can multiply quickly. I'm thinking that I just lucked out and found one in the drop of water with the algae sample... I'm sure there is all types of parasites in miniscule numbers in every pond. I did scrapes on 3 koi last month and found nothing.

Those in the Pics were eradicated at 16C using "Acriflavine" (dry powder version) combined with .3% Salt :yes:

hiphuggger
03-28-2009, 06:03 PM
I have the same problem with that suspended algae....it goes thru everything, and it seems there is no solution :(
I only have a Ultima Ii filter and skimmer, but at this very moment we have bag filters over all the returns and they are filling up quick. The Ultima II must be a great biological filter...but that is where it stops.

CHICHI
03-28-2009, 06:13 PM
I have the same problem with that suspended algae....it goes thru everything, and it seems there is no solution :(
I only have a Ultima Ii filter and skimmer, but at this very moment we have bag filters over all the returns and they are filling up quick. The Ultima II must be a great biological filter...but that is where it stops.

A correctly sized UV should eliminate these problems :yes:

The mistakes we sometimes make myself included is buying the wrong size unit to meet the individual requirements of our particular System :yes: or worse still pushing far to great a flow through these :eek1:

GPH quoted by Manufacturers have been proven to be much too high for the Units to function effectively ..

Some UV myths exploded in this link :yes: use the sub link for Ponds contained therein http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumUVSterilization.html

hiphuggger
03-28-2009, 06:23 PM
I wish I could say I had the wrong sized equiptment and it was my failure, but alas; my pond is approx 3000 gallons, my UV is rated 120 Watts, my Ultima II is rated (not sure) approx 5000 gallons, ...and the turnover from my pump to the pond is 2400 gph.
BUT~ my pond is in direct sun light all day....16 med- large koi. My skimmer was an after-thought discovery!~ And just skims and returns the water via another port on the waterfall......
What I don't understand is why is bead filter is returning crap BACK to my pond. I have really thick, can't -see- thru micron filter socks hanging off the return right now, and it is filled with algae and black crud......I am getting a little frustrated to say the least. I am considering getting a bag filter to mechanically filter out everything the Ultima II misses....
Ah, the joys of koi's :)

CHICHI
03-28-2009, 06:56 PM
I wish I could say I had the wrong sized equiptment and it was my failure, but alas; my pond is approx 3000 gallons, my UV is rated 120 Watts, my Ultima II is rated (not sure) approx 5000 gallons, ...and the turnover from my pump to the pond is 2400 gph.
BUT~ my pond is in direct sun light all day....16 med- large koi. My skimmer was an after-thought discovery!~ And just skims and returns the water via another port on the waterfall......
What I don't understand is why is bead filter is returning crap BACK to my pond. I have really thick, can't -see- thru micron filter socks hanging off the return right now, and it is filled with algae and black crud......I am getting a little frustrated to say the least. I am considering getting a bag filter to mechanically filter out everything the Ultima II misses....
Ah, the joys of koi's :)

Then the UV is failing to perform for one of several reasons - the biggest culprit being the "Direct Sunlight" mine was the same I was pushing all my return water through these !
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BABY-KOI-WATER-POLISHING-POND-FILTER-PADS-18-X-18-X3_W0QQitemZ350183805825QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Home Garden_Garden_PondsWaterFeatures_UK?hash=item35018 3805825&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318

and having to rinse them every other day :eek1:

hiphuggger
03-28-2009, 07:25 PM
WOW..those are BIG pads! Just for giggles, my husband has jammed a thick polishing pad on top of the bead filter, and still has the 100 micron filter socks hanging from the return. Tomorrow, we'll see what result we get. But the filter socks have already strained a lot of the yuckies and we are starting to see fish! Not sure I'll see the bottom, but it's a start.If the additional filtration is the key, then we have to look for something permanent, as this set-up is very unsightly!

farne230
03-31-2009, 08:49 AM
Your water clarity looks great.:clap: I fear the only practive which will eliminate algae growth year round will requre the addition and expense of shading and ozone IMO.
Bob

CHICHI
03-31-2009, 08:54 AM
Your water clarity looks great.:clap: I fear the only practive which will eliminate algae growth year round will requre the addition and expense of shading and ozone IMO.
Bob

:yes: :D: ;)

koikate
03-31-2009, 01:09 PM
Check out this thread for Sodium Percarbonate treatment and its effect on algae in ponds.

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53618

koikate
03-31-2009, 01:37 PM
Aside from the SP treatment, quick shade equals floating rafts filled with nitrate eating annual plants to eliminate the conditons that cause algae growth; i.e. sun and nitrates.

Raft that puppy for some instant shade.

http://koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1568884#post1568884

avorancher
03-31-2009, 05:00 PM
There are several treatments that could kill the algae, but my experience last year is that it just comes right back. I would rather concentrate on something that I don't have to add every week. I turned on my big UVs yesterday but I don't think they are going to make much difference because new algae clumps grow as quickly as the old can be filtered out. Wouldn't O3 be similar to using UV in this case? Remember... my water is not green at all... just full of small floating bits. Nitrates are less than 5 ppm and phosphates are also low at .5.

Pond should be getting up to 70F soon and that is the time when I put a shade cloth over the pergola. It doesn't completely shade the pond but did help a little last year. Reducing koi feeding would no doubt help but the DW wouldn't go for that one nor the little floating islands.

Bob... did you hook up O3? I remember the softener and/or RO unit you put in.

geraldlim
03-31-2009, 06:25 PM
My water garden is full of this pondscum since I took the koi out and stopped the submersible pump that would turn it into a whirlpool. The stuff kinda grows on the bottom, not attached to anything. It floats up in the day when it is photosynthesizing. When I had strong currents in it, it would just get sucked into the gravel bog filter. What is the turnover rate, and is there good current in it?

koikate
03-31-2009, 10:22 PM
I don't hear people saying anything about barley straw treatments. Around where I live, there are a lot of folks farming primarily trout and salmon. These guys hate algae as much as koi pond people do and they swear by barley straw.

From what I can tell, the secret to making it work is WHEN you put it in. It's got to go into the water BEFORE algae begins to develop as the water warms up; some say 50 degrees and everybody says by the time the water temps reach 60 F. Or in other words about the time your fish come out of their winter slow down and want to feed again.

Nobody around here uses those cute little baled barley straw bundles you find in pond shops; they all just go to a farm store and buy a bale of barley straw. It's about five bucks. They pack it loosely into onion bags or net bags; 8 oz of barley straw for every 1000 gallons. Then they add rocks to the barley straw bags so it sinks, tie a nylon cord to it and toss the bags into the pond securing the end of the nylon cord at the pond's edge under a rock or something. They toss several small bags into the water rather rather than one big one to make sure the algae preventing chemicals in barley straw gets evenly distributed throughout the pond. They also retrieve and replace each bundle after 4-6 weeks in order to keep the treatment up throughout the algae season.

Barley straw will not kill an existing algae problem; it will only keep one from developing.

The big trout farmers around here just swear by the stuff.

avorancher
03-31-2009, 11:41 PM
I don't hear people saying anything about barley straw treatments. Around where I live, there are a lot of folks farming primarily trout and salmon. These guys hate algae as much as koi pond people do and they swear by barley straw.

From what I can tell, the secret to making it work is WHEN you put it in. It's got to go into the water BEFORE algae begins to develop as the water warms up; some say 50 degrees and everybody says by the time the water temps reach 60 F. Or in other words about the time your fish come out of their winter slow down and want to feed again.

Nobody around here uses those cute little baled barley straw bundles you find in pond shops; they all just go to a farm store and buy a bale of barley straw. It's about five bucks. They pack it loosely into onion bags or net bags; 8 oz of barley straw for every 1000 gallons. Then they add rocks to the barley straw bags so it sinks, tie a nylon cord to it and toss the bags into the pond securing the end of the nylon cord at the pond's edge under a rock or something. They toss several small bags into the water rather rather than one big one to make sure the algae preventing chemicals in barley straw gets evenly distributed throughout the pond. They also retrieve and replace each bundle after 4-6 weeks in order to keep the treatment up throughout the algae season.

Barley straw will not kill an existing algae problem; it will only keep one from developing.

The big trout farmers around here just swear by the stuff.

I think Hydrogen peroxide is a product of decomposition of barley straw, therefore similar to the Sodium Percarbonate you mentioned earlier. I have no doubt it works in some ponds but you're probably right about applying it before the problem starts. I put in a bunch of Barley Concentrated Extract last year when my problem was even worse and the only thing it eliminated was most of the padding in my wallet.

We had some visitors to the pond today and they were all amazed at how clear the water was. Meanwhile, I'm going nuts trying to make it clear. Maybe I'm the problem.

avorancher
03-31-2009, 11:54 PM
My water garden is full of this pondscum since I took the koi out and stopped the submersible pump that would turn it into a whirlpool. The stuff kinda grows on the bottom, not attached to anything. It floats up in the day when it is photosynthesizing. When I had strong currents in it, it would just get sucked into the gravel bog filter. What is the turnover rate, and is there good current in it?

Hi Gerald. I think you're on to something here. Last year, I could watch the algae float up from the bottom of my shallow stream. It would float up in the daytime and sink at night. Last year it was big globs.

I could probably have a better turnover rate but with a big pond it is difficult. My turnover is around 75 minutes. Currents are adequate for self cleaning the bottom, especially with air domes on. I tried leaving the air off for a while to allow the particles to sink, but they never do. Filtration picks up a lot of the particles but it either passes right through or new algae is generated as fast as the old is removed. I can go at least a week before cleaning the Nexus Easys, so the stuff is really small and non-clogging so far. I can use a very fine net to pick it up but it just dissolves if you touch it. maybe it is dissolving inside the filters and starting its cycle over when exiting. So far the UV is having no affect.

koikate
04-01-2009, 12:04 AM
Steve, I forgot to say that though some fish farmers advocate adding barley straw the moment the temps even begin to warm up, others say to keep the treatments up all winter long. Their reasoning is that even in February we can have unseasonably warm days & it doesn't take much of a temperature spike for algae to become active again.

CHICHI
04-01-2009, 06:57 AM
Hi Gerald. I think you're on to something here. Last year, I could watch the algae float up from the bottom of my shallow stream. It would float up in the daytime and sink at night. Last year it was big globs.
So far the UV is having no affect.

I have had some success in the past with Barley Straw Extract and Partial Shading :yes: but it does need to be applied regularly :yes:

Algae will "Float" to the surface during Sunlight hours as you have noticed..

Give the UV time - if it is correctly sized for the Gallonage/Flow/Stocking Densities/Pond Positioning etc it should keep it under control :yes: but O3 would work better ;) :D:

koikate
04-01-2009, 11:34 AM
Does anyone know the name of this particular algae? It doesn't sound like regular pea soup algae or string algae. It's got some peculiar traits.

avorancher
04-01-2009, 11:54 AM
I can't post what I call it. :no: