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tewa
07-19-2005, 10:32 AM
This posts were posted by JR a very experienced koi keeper, there is a lot of science in it and I just wanted to see your opinions.

First off, do not confuse TTs ( trickle towers) with Wet dry biofilters ( this would include the bakki shower).

TTs are NON- trapping filters. In fact they are useless as mechanical or prefilters. The idea of a TT is to have:
1) a huge non clogging, non-packing media , suspended in air so that falling water can ‘trickle’ over the surface in continuous thin layers. This allows for maximum oxygen contact with the bacteria/ammonia/nitrite reaction. It also allows for degassing of trapped gases within the water column ( various nitrogen gaseous forms).
2) If you think about it, a pond has a rather small surface area for its total water volume. Especially those ponds that are 8-12 feet deep. By using a TT, you increase your ‘water surface’ exponentially by running water over the media in thin layers. The water in the towers at any one moment can be viewed as an alternative water surface. Think of this gas exchange as a two way street- good gas in – bad gas out. Pumping air up the column while you run/trickle water down the column is an additional incentive for both bacteria and gas exchange.

Your column should be as tall as space will allow. 8-10 feet is good. I favor an air stone over a fan for air exchange as I want my entire media surface and walls of the TT to be exposed to high humidity. The ‘speed’ of the falling water can be slow or fast. But I have found water ‘trickling’ to be better than water roaring down over the media.

A wet/dry biofilter is very similar except most designs are also detritus trapping and therefore perform two roles- prefilter/mechanical as well as biological. These two functions are usually accomplished independently until one is at the expense of the other. In these filters, water can be run rapidly through the layers and probably should, as the trapped organics will have a tendency to ‘go off’ and produce excess decay/anaerobic conditions and gases in a slow gentle water flow.
The bakki show is the only wet/dry filter system in the world that claims the waste build up is harmless and even desirable. I remain skeptical about this claim and wait for the science to catch up to the marketing.
JR

‘Thinking outside the filter box’
This whole subject of biofiltration can be reduced to two issues:

1) the idea of two stages- mechanical and biological. And each designed to address organic and inorganic pollution separately.
2) the concept of biofilter efficiency Vs reduced biofilter activity ( the taming of an over active biofilter). This is a tricky balance to understand at first but is really very simple. Very efficient biofiltration is good and desirable, but excess biofiltration leads to excess nitrates. The ideal compromise would be a system that vents and gases off nitrogen and/or dilutes ammonia produced via continuous water changes and THEN efficiently removes the residual ammonia via normal nitrification. This results in very little fluctuation away from the ideal base line reading of common pollutants in general.

Here would be an example of a biofilm ‘evolution’ that changes/improves efficiency but is still ultimately quagmired in issue #1–

An under-gravel filter is made of three inches of coral rubble or volcanic rock rubble. It works very well and cycles very quickly- 18 to 22 days. It soon shows some nitrate readings. Over time the potential for anaerobic activity improves and channeling and reduced oxygen level prevail.
Now the undergravel filter is placed on a tray and moved above the water line- we spray water over it. It acts as it did before only it becomes more efficient. Much of the decaying waste vents it gaseous byproduct into the atmosphere and away from the fish. This is obviously a better outcome. Stage three- we create three trays of these ‘undergravel’ filters , all above the water line. Water falls from one tray to the other. This is now called a wet/dry biofilter. The gravel in the trays gets progressively cleaner as the first one or two trays acts as a mechanical strainer for organics as well as a biological reactor for inorganics. Most harmful byproducts of decay are gassed off. Organisms develop that feed on the organic slurry trapped in the filters. It is true that channeling occurs but the rich oxygen environment allows for maximum bacteria/oxidation efficiency within the sections of the media that are lowest in organic fouling.

JR

Clever boy!
So we still have the organic slurry 'in circulation'. This pollutant must remained contained, just like we would not want the slurry from a FF ( foam fractionator/protein skimmer) to leech back into solution once it is in the 'scum pot' of the FF.
A koi pond is destine to become a progressively nutrient rich situation. The gravel traps the results of this process, isolates it, vents the gaseous byproducts etc. But the passing water still recaptures a percentage.. This would include the cultivation and migration of those species that thrive on such organics. So we often see DOCs collected at the base of many wet/dry filters- large and small bubbles and suds that seem to immune from the normal physics that causes bubbles to poop! This is due to the ‘skin’ formed at the water’s surface as organic molecules cling to water and air. There are also things like POCs and TOCs in water subject to eutrophication. But that is another conversation.
Just suffice it to say, the result of all this, is water that has a higher than desirable, free bacteria count. The only way to counter this is with water changes, less fish and/or less food. In a system with stocking levels of one fish per 2000- 6000 gallons, you would likely get excellent results based on dilution factors. In systems of less than 250- 200 gallons per fish, I think you are going to hit ‘ the wall’ at some point. This is because the more the eutrophication of the environment, the less the carrying capacity of that water. This is the classic battle between heterotrophic species driven by organics and autotrophic species driven by primarily, inorganic ammonia.
And of course, the big test for all pond filter designs is in the season nature of ponds. As water cools and light periods shorten, the biology of a pond winds down. In this process, the slurry is no longer biologically neutralized. In Spring, you have pure pollution entering a ‘sleepy’ biological environment. In the old days this meant back breaking cleaning of stones and gravel and the painful work of cleaning lava rock. The alternative was to dump this slurry back into circulation. And that is why aeromonas was the scourge it was in the eighties and early nineties. Fueled by weak fish and unstable microbial activity, spring time and ‘dead winter water’ naturally encouraged the myth of aeromonas alley and the practice of over cleaning seasonal koi ponds.

Now having restated all this history, I have yet to see enough feed back on systems that are using Bakki exclusively, stocking normally and not heating in winter. These bits of info will help me mentally, to move the bakki shower out of the class of filters known as wet/dry biofilters.
And the single biggest reason for my skepticism regarding the ‘total bakki experience’ is that this would be the very first system in the entire world that combines mechanical/prefiltration and biological filtration in one stage and says that it is open-ended in that design approach, with no limitations over time/ seasons or stocking level considerations. In other words, it claims to be ‘immortal’ in performance and ‘immune’ to organic waste build up and seasonal disruption. A lot to swallow .

JR

Ian, I’m not sure if the proper response will put everyone to sleep that reads it! Bacteria can be lumped and grouped into many sub-categories based on :
Environmental preference-
*Temperature range/pH range/ORP ranges
*Oxidizing/ reductive nature
Behavioral preference-
* Use of oxygen, carbon dioxide in their metabolic activities
Physical characteristics-
* the general shape of individual cells.
* ability to produce spores or not.
* sedentary or gliding/swimming.
* how they absorb dye based within their cell wall construction
* the design and presence of the certain internal structures

For our purposes, we want to know if those species that use organic material for generating energy are producing toxic byproducts OR are potential pathogens by nature. The bacteria breaking down dense detritus and living in the base of biofilm is truly anaerobic and will only operate at very low ORP levels. And the byproduct can be nasty things like methane . Their activity can be more broad however and also straight forward- like the depletion of oxygen levels . Over time, this same environment also produces the second group - both opportunistic and dedicated pathogens.
People may not realize it but bacteria coats the entire pond, including the fish. The fish have a slime coat to protect them from bacteria damaging their living tissue ( and most common forms of heterotrophic forms are utilizing dead organic matter). But if a koi’s immune system is not working well or the slime coat is eroded away or the count of bacteria is astronomically large- these normally occurring bacteria will begin to infect living cells.
For our conversation, as water declines in quality ( LOSS of important micro and macro nutrients, buffers and oxygen molecules and INCREASE in organic content and inorganic nitrogen) the koi’s immune response is weaken by stress and at the same time, large numbers of bacteria like aeromonas, flexibacter and pseudomonas are produced. Once pretty much so much white background noise, these species now dominate the water column. In fact there is a tipping point where a simple water change can no longer dilute and bring things in line again. This is party due to the fact that these species are also gifted prolific breeders.
So this particular group of heterotrophic species are not so much about anaerobic toxic factories but rather about ‘utilizers’ of organic tissue. They still produce toxins but in the infection mode and this is what kills living cells.
So whether the species is one that uses organic material and produces gaseous byproduct or one that uses up organic fuel and puts a load on the pond’s carrying capacity, is not as important as why they are doing so well in a given environment. The secondary result of this environment will be the disease causing agents, once the dynamics of low ORP, low oxygen, high carbon dioxide and possible dangerous gases have done their damage to koi’s immunity and the normal balance of good and bad bacteria populations.
JR


This is my response to JR post

just a few queries I respect you as a very knowledgable person. You say that organic sludge builds up in a bakki shower system and overtime it is decayed by these anaerobic bacteria at the base of a biofilm.

Overtime this would lead to other pathogenic bacteria being more prominent in the pond. Would this not happen even more in a submerge system since the ORP levels are much lower.

And in most TT or bakki shower systems ORP levels are very high in the pond water would this mean that the pathogenic bacteria are less likely to occur compared to a normal submerged system

Last question ORP levels must be quite high in bakki shower systems at the biofilm/water interface. Is it ignorant to assume the majority of the biofilm is aerobic? and that with such high turnover top layers of the biofilm are removed and new layers are formed. As these new layers are exposed to water with high ORP there would be less chances of these anaerobic bacteria growing? And if they did they would probably be greatly outnumbered? thus in your scenario of these bacteria causing other pathogenic bacteria to proliferate would not be likely in a bakki shower/wet/dry filter pond. Since there are less anaerobic bacteria in a high ORP environment how is it that the organics decay and degas so effectively?

Thus in submerge systems there would more likely be a higher number of this anaerobic bacteria, would this mean that submerge filters can decay organics faster? That sounds good, but that would cause the scenario you described with low ORP and causing pathogenic bacteria to proliferate in submerge systems, especially with a settlement chamber that most likely would only be flushed once a day.

Lastly JR there are many systems that are bakki shower that stock more koi than 200 to 250 gallons and have not had the problems that you say will happen when the organic sludge build up. A few of these ponds have been running for more than 2 to 3 seasons. And a fair few of them still go through a winter period with pond water of 15 to 16 degrees. The problem you described may happen in 10 years time to a bakki showered pond but would that not be because the bioload has grown so significantly that really more showers should be added. Bacteria house in bakki shower is a great system but it will have its limits in regards to nitrification and degassing.


best regards
TEWA

ps I have always learnt a lot from reading your posts

Koi is the Best
07-19-2005, 10:34 AM
I'm eventually getting one, anything that can make my fish look like the one below I'm sold on. This is

saltiery
07-20-2005, 08:10 AM
Absolutely... Nothing but CLEAN WELL FILTERED water should ever hit the tower/shower so place it after the filtration, UV etc and let it flow to the pond.

JPR
07-20-2005, 10:52 PM
For my friends who asked---

JPR
07-20-2005, 11:01 PM
Actual photo of long mat chamber now removed and replaced with bacteria house---

JPR
07-20-2005, 11:20 PM
a closer look---

JPR
07-21-2005, 09:57 AM
For tonight's chat Roddy, please post a picture of your actual TT, as we all thought for years the pink Freudian sculpture was your TT! In fact I was sure I remembered you talking about the lava rock inside this waterfall/TT, its cleaning etc? I'll see if I saved a copy--

At any rate, if that TT is now a waterfall, can you please provide a side by side photo and I'll do the same here so we can discuss the advantages of both? Here's mine of course, you've seen it many times before. By the way, I also have these as three foot towers- that is what I'm using on the cycling experiments/demos right now.
Thanks much, JR

Roddy Conrad
07-21-2005, 05:22 PM
For those who ask, attached below is a picture of the main biofilter on our outdoor koi pond, in service, with koi, with Lizzie beside it so you get an idea of size. It is a 24 inches in diameter, 36 inches tall, cylinder made out of pieces of lava rock 5 inches thick in the outer shell glued together with Epoxy glue. It is a commercial biofilter I bought and had shipped from Las Vegas, specifically the No 5 lava rock fountain sold by Larry Womack of Nevada Water Gardens (www.nevadawatergardens.com).

Like Lizzie said, the computers at work at the big chemical plant are not allowed to access public message boards, for security reasons. So if you see my name surfing on weekdays during working hours, it is Lizzie surfing on my account at her worktime computer.

The primary information for trickle tower filters is contained in a 5 years old continuous thread on the Malaysian koi message board at:

http://www.koi.com.my/cgi-bin/koiforum/gforum.cgi?post=3071;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;f orum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

The folks in Malaysia and Singapore have much more knowledge on this subject than anyone in the Western hemisphere.

They have many successful trickle towers on their ponds that are less than 12 inches high, but do prefer higher towers to shorter ones.

And, like Lizzie said, we are off on vacation this weekend, not at any computer, "living our life", and perhaps those who are too caught up in message boards should "get a life".

I took off the comment about pleasant discussions, since with JR around, it is difficult for anything to remain pleasant anyway.

JPR
07-22-2005, 06:16 AM
Okie dokie– My best pal Roddy suggested that short towers are as good as tall towers and the only reason I recommended a tall as possible tower, when asked , was because I’m an egomaniac! Well, I may very well be an egomaniac but that is not why, when asked, that I made the recommendation . ;)

A pond is a very artificial body of water no matter how ‘natural’ it is made to look. And certainly nature alone could not support the amount/weight of life we attempt to keep in our ponds! Our dedicated koi ponds tend to be fairly deep relative to the square surface of the pond. A pond that is say 22 ft X 14 ft and 6 ft deep holds almost 14,000 gallons of water. Yet its surface is only 308 sq feet. This does not give the water column much chance to ‘exchange’ with the atmosphere. So this water/air interface could not be more important when it comes to a healthy environment for fish.

In a living system, the regulation and production of what are known as non-conservative gases is almost completely regulated at the waters surface. The big three for our conversation are- oxygen, carbon dioxide and nitrogen ( various species) . And although most koi ponds will see very little in the way of hydrogen sulfide it is also in this family of non conservative gases and is also regulated by the water/air interface as it vents to the atmosphere.
Oxygen is present in the air in reasonable abundance- about 20% of the atmospheric mix. It also will be found naturally dissolved in water. The amount that is found in water is called the saturation level and this maximum level is determined by temperature. The cooler the water, the more oxygen can be held, the warmer the water the less the saturation level.
The WAY oxygen ‘gets into’ water is either by being ‘pushed in’ by atmospheric pressure at the air/water interface OR by photosynthesis. The movement ( turbulence on either side of the interface) of that surface water is what actively brings that surface water up to saturation for temperature levels. And these dissolved levels are relatively modest compared to the percentages in the air. In fact we need to measure oxygen in parts per million to get an idea of saturation levels.
On the consumption side, every living system has a ‘demand for oxygen’. The bacteria, the algae and the fish all contribute to a gross or total demand for this precious gas. This is known as BOD or biological oxygen demand. I mentioned bacteria here. Many bacteria forms feed on organic material. This can account for a large percentage of total BOD in a koi pond. So the dirtier or more over stocked a koi pond, the more important regular gas exchange at the air/water interface is! The good gas in and the bad gases out! This is what people tend to be so amazed and perhaps over impressed when they move a biofilter out of the submerged state an into the open air. It is not that the TT is magical. It is that the water was suffering from lack of gas exchange due to high BOD compared to the limited surface space or limited turn over rates.
Gases like oxygen need to have opportunity to enter water. But other gases, like nitrogen gases and other intermediate nitrogenous gas species, as well as carbon dioxide, need to leave the water as they are in ‘excess’ due to normal and excess biological activity. These are also gases that need to be in relationship with other gases in the water. Carbon dioxide, for instance, wants to be free in the atmosphere. Yet in one turns down the aeration in a pond water or even a blue show tank, rising carbon dioxide levels will be trapped to the extent that they will lower pH- a true indicator that this potentially harmful gas needs help in getting to the air/water interface.
A living system is a complicated system, biochemically speaking. Even in simple microbe activity, several forms of gas can be produced. The venting of gaseous ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is possible and beneficial to any living system. Some have suggested that TTs reduce nitrate. This is ultimately correct, but the explanation is not as simple as that. What TTs do is vent all volatile nitrogenous gases as they form at each level, reducing the total production and therefore, ultimately the end product nitrate. So in a well circulated system, nitrogen forms are in what could be described as a ‘leaky’ system, in which total ammonia is grabbed by algae, heterotrophic bacteria, nitrifying bacteria and the atmosphere itself.

So how does a TT fit into all this? And why is a tall TT an advantage?
Well for one, a tall TT such as the one I use, represents 16 cubic feet of space. I use 4 units for a total square footage 64 cubic feet. The media I use has a huge surface space and excellent void space. It is rated at 110 square feet per single cubic foot. That means that my total square footage for this 7,000 plus system is 7,040 square feet! A pond surface of 200 feet long X 35 feet wide does not have as much air/water interface as these four towers. Think about that in terms of gas exchange opportunity- both oxygen in, and carbon dioxide and nitrogen species out. Add back the actual agitated pond surface and you have an entirely new ratio of total water volume to air/water interface. This is the secret of TT action/presence. The massive surface obviously easily removes ammonia biologically, and this is of course all important but not the subject we are focusing on at the moment.
The 8 ft plus height of the tower simply means that at any one moment you have a huge percentage of total pond water in circulation in a air/water interface ‘zone’. And much of it is present right AT the site of oxidation, where gases can be generated. The 500 gallons plus of water in thin sheets and in contact with biofilm is a huge benefit. In the case of the Roddy pink phallic symbol, the basic concept is sound, but I don’t begin to see it as ‘stiff’ ( pun intended) competition to the surface area of other media such as the one I use, nor as an overly impressive total square footage of air/water interface? But all things tend to work better and in mysterious ways in that backyard in West Virginia! ;)

Does this mean that submerged filters are bad or obsolete? - NOT AT ALL! Submerged filtration has some real advantages over true TTs and even some wet/dry systems. But for degassing, TTs are the state of the art. With wet/drys and dynamic submerged media type right behind them as a close second.
JR

Hanyakoi
07-22-2005, 07:35 AM
Here's mine of course, you've seen it many times before. By the way, I also have these as three foot towers- that is what I'm using on the cycling experiments/demos right now.
Thanks much, JR

JR, your four 3 feet towers, may I asked what are they filled with? Silica/sand? And how do you run them in your TT format? Please advise. Thxs.

JPR
07-22-2005, 07:53 AM
Morning! Normally same material as the big girls ( plastic bioballasts in the picture below) .
I'm using three now, however, on an experiment for demonstrating the time frame required for the nitrification cycle to be completed and I'm using three different media types- crude lava rock, these geolite balls ( pictured) and cut up Jmat-like material ( 2 X 2 inch squares).
JR

Hanyakoi
07-22-2005, 08:11 AM
Gents, I've been invited to judge in your part of the world a few times. How safe is the region for Americans to travel in these days? I've traveled in Japan with a few Malaysian dealers and well as Indonesian dealers and they seemed very respectful and friendly. But we hear things in the media about great hostility towards westerners and Americans in particular. Comments? JR

We would love you to come to Malaysia to be one of our ZNA certified judge during our annual ZNA Koi Show which would be held next year 2006, sometime in May or June, i.e. if you consent.

This year in May, saw almost 700 koi entered for the contest. Mr. Masao Kato came personally to be the head judge of the show. He loved our country very much. Mr. Richard Tan, President of ZN Singapore Koi Club was here, so is Mr.Ces Graham & Mr. David Gibson of ZN Western Australia and Mr. Bolly A. Prabanto of ZN Jakarta, Indonesia. Guests came from Japan, Taiwan and Hong Kong too. During our ZN Show, we invite all guest members from across Asia, as far as Australia and even South Africa. If you are a ZNA certified judge, everything is taken care off by the club and you needed to pay for your own airfare only.

Malaysia is a safe place for vacation. A multi-racial country where we have all sort of races staying together peacefully in one country. Ask Chris, he is married to a Malaysian. There are no discrimination - and we mixs well, Malays, Chinese, Indians, Eurasians or Westerners. We stayed next doors to other races in housing estates, and we work harmoniously together building up this great nation. Unless you have been to Malaysia, you will never realise how beautiful Malaysia is! Things are cheap, hotel rates are low, you can get yourself all sorts of food - Eastern or Western, exchange rate is US$1 to RM3.60. But most of all - Malaysia is a beautiful country to stay in.

Take for example koi keeping, it is being enjoyed by all the races, Malays, Chinese, Indians and others. Infact, last year 2004 ZNA Young Koi Show Championship was won by a Malay friend of mine. Koi keeping is one hobby that unites all races too, just like my country staying united amongst all races.

Hostility towards Americans/Westerners? Not in Malaysia. Infact USA is the biggest investor in our country and we have a lot of Americans expatriates staying in our country. I am sure you heard of American companies like Intel, Dell, AIA, General Motors, Citibank, Chase/Morgan, MacDonalds, PizzaHuts, etc. etc., there all all here! Like I said, the USA investments in Malaysia is HUGE so are companies from Europe, Japan and others.

So JR, don't believe what you read in some Western newspapers, you should come and see for yourself to believe what a peaceful and harmonious country we are living in.

Likewise, believe what TT & Bakki Showers (tall or short / wet/dry) could do for your ponds. I am using two 6' tall TT towers with 100kg of bacteria house and it does wonder to my pond. Only 12 tons but with almost 40 koi in it ranging from above 65BU to 45BU. My sub-chambered filter is less than 10% of pond size, and is only half-filled with water running through. I don't care about the scientific part of it as long as it performs well for my pond. No algae blooms (I don't know why?) Water is crystal clear (I don't know why?) I do only 10%-15% water change a week (this I know why). All my koi are growing healthily and no bacteria/parasite infestation for the past years.

Frankly speaking, some members here and there are very skeptical about it and complained also that the 'bacteria house' are expensive. They just don't realise how much it cost them if a good quality koi died on them. To me, it's cheap and good. BTW I am not a promotor/dealer for bacteria house. I used it and I know how good they are but if you asked me to explain the technical part of it - sorry brother, this cool dude don't really knows.

Cheers

poey
07-22-2005, 08:09 PM
hi
i ain't a real teckie kind of person,i prefer to base my conclusions on personal experience.
but i do run a bakki showered pond spec as follows(all uk gallons)
pool size 5000gal,1 double shower,1 single,180kg bhm turn over through showers 9000gph,the showers are enclosed inside the filter house returning to the pool through a chute.
i have a 2ft vortex on the skimmer line with static K1, 2000gph on this line, this i fluidize and flush to waste daily total water changes around 100gals a day,so no massive water changes.
all my water params are perfect,the tds of my source water is 220,the pool runs 280,my ORP is 320.
works for me.
cheers Dave.

Hanyakoi
07-23-2005, 12:59 AM
Thanks so much guys, great input from each and every one of you! One of the most rewarding things about being in ZNA is the chance to meet and visit so many 'sister and brother' countries and see how koi keeping is done there. The ZNA fraternity is rich with talent!
I know Richard Tan well and also Kato San. Wonderful koi kichi!

Got a call today from a bacteria house dealer and it looks like I will have to spend over $2600 for the bacteria house volume I need! But I'm koi kichi too! So stay tuned.

JR

Nice to hear that you knew Richard Tan and Kato San. Interesting people and wonderful, wonderfully koi kichi guys!

HIP! HIP! HORRAY! YEH! SO ARE WE - ARE ALL KOI KICHI AND YOU ARE THE REAL 'GURU', 'SIFU', 'GRANDMASTER' ALL IN ONE, WHO REALLY KNOWS SOOOOO..... MUCH!!!
.... so is Roddy Conrad, but.... he's more oxthodox in his manner of keeping koi... I follow a bit from him (here & there) but learn more and understand more from you.

US$2,600 for bacteria house alone? Wow! that's a lot of money; let's see... US$2,600 x Ringgit Malaysia $3.80 = RM$9,880 divided by RM$55 per kilo gives you approx. 180kg of bacteria house which is enough for 50ton pond if used together with chambered submerged mat media/& others.

BTW, JR do you believe in that bacteria house which are a mixture of silica and other mineral oxides thermal treated to 1700 degrees could release far-infrared rays which are good for koi metabolism? Please comment. Cheers

JPR
07-23-2005, 05:15 PM
Do I accept the explanation of far infrared powers of bacteria house media? Honestly I don't.
I think it is a good lightweight media with a lot of surface and being as rough as it is, allows for good biofilm attachment early on.
If you know marine invert. systems , you know that live rock is based on a similar idea- low nitrification and low denitrification. But then again, those system depend on low BOD and low stocking levels in general. And often protein skimmers are used to draw off raw protein and amino acids before mineralization can even take place- further reducing potential ammonia sources.
The bakki went , since 1998, from a mimicking of nature ( complete with the bakki bays being filled with water plants) and as an ‘end’ stage filter unit- used on a huge, lightly stocked system, to a stand alone filter, fed raw organic/inorganic water directly in highly stocked systems! If you look at the evolution of filters in Japan, especially Japanese breeding facilities, you see lots of wet/dry systems and Trickle towers used mostly for adding buffer and oxygen to water ( oyster shell media in plastic creates, being the most common) . So the evolution to other media was natural I suppose? But the media of any type is still subject to certain realities.
The waste treatment industry, in south of Japan, uses ceramic media for its trickle tower waste treatment systems. And a simple search on far infrared powers will show a cult-like belief that is only rivaled by those that believe very strongly in the power of magnets. I can comfortably agree to remain open minded about such things but am disturbed that the science on such things is really pretty sketchy.
One of the most glaring problems with the idea of organic/inorganic conversion within the bacteria house is that all studies I have ever seen show that biofilm surfaces thicken and ‘seal’ the inner areas of the substrate it grows on, making a barrier for free movement of water and nutrient impossible. If you have an answer unit with the older finer micron screen, for instance, you can see that after a while, the biofilm will seal the screen and reduce water flow dramatically. The same is true with the surface of activated carbon over time. Even a glass panel places in a pond will be coated with biofilm in relatively short order. So the suggestion that this bacteria house media can avoid this universal reality is pretty hard to accept?
The tests that ‘prove’ far infrared powers like ‘flattening a beer’s head of foam’ seems more like a parlor trick to me than scientific demonstration? I can do that will a Tums tablet or many other additives? So I can’t get too impressed by that ‘proof’?
So, never say never ( unless it has to do with Roddy and Roark’s overnight nitrification cycle! LOLs) but at this point, I think the far infrared explanation is a hard sell.
JR

PS here is a ceramic media surface made right here in North Carolina ( promised Gene! ;))

tewa
07-24-2005, 05:00 AM
Hi JR

There are many scientific studies and research papers out there on Far Infrared Rays and what they can do. A member on koichat who has had a chance to study something about nuclear physics, radiation, and infrared rays in my past, and their effect on molecular structures. he says think of the slurry as a tumor and the media as a radiation treatment, it breaks it down and changes it to molecularly different properties. Makes it disappear into and easily consumed, in it's changed molecular structure.

He states that bakki showers with bacteria house are not just a biological filter but a radiation filter, he says "The claim they make to the radiation effect breaking up the molecules of water, and thus releasing waste and degassing from the water molecules, and breaking up the molecules of waste to be much more quickly and easily consumed as long as there is sufficient aeration (ie the shower), is 100% true". They are combining sciences, which is why they are getting the results and are able to make the claims they are. The bakki shower is not jsut a biologically based filter, but a radiation based filter. Very different technology than anything else on the market, and that is why they are able to use one filter media to perform both tasks"

this member has posted some links in regards to FAR infrared rays as I requested, should I post it here for you JR and other members?

tewa

tewa
07-24-2005, 05:52 AM
I have copied some information on FIR and their effects especially so on humans

The infrared rays were known to the world in 1800 by a Germany scientist, F. W. Herschel. The infrared rays of longer wavelength than 780 nm and shorter wavelength than microwave do not cause sensation of light, but have many thermal effects. Therefore, the infrared rays have the drying and heating functions.






Temperature range of our daily life is usually 280 C to -20 C, equivalent to the wavelength of far infrared rays, 5.2 m to 11.5 m, when calculated according to the Wien's displacement law. In the case of far infrared rays, only the wavelength band of
3 m to 30 m is commercially utilized, which does not have any chemical function,
but has physical and biological actions. Infrared rays' physical effects include the radiation, resonance absorption, and penetration, while the biological effects include expansion of fine blood vessels and reinforcement of metabolism.

Generally known major effects of far infrared rays can be summarized as follow;


A. Physiological and deodorization effects

Our body is mainly consisted of water and protein. Especially, water amounts to 75%. Our body is generally activated when the oscillatory wavelength range of molecular movement of organic compounds is identical to that of far infrared ray radiated. Absorption spectrum of organic compounds is usually the wavelength range of 6 m to 14 m. Far infrared rays absorbed are penetrating into our body due to its property, causing generation of heat. Accordingly, the thermal effect and perspiration are resulted.

Such effects result in expansion of fine blood vessels, promotion of blood circulation, activation of tissues, promotion of metabolism, and excretion of waste materials and hazardous metals, leading to activated regeneration and physiological metabolism. Therefore, far infrared rays ensure healthy life. Further, far infrared rays generate
an ion for neutralization of cation, resulting in removal of bad smells.


B. Activation of water

Water is a cluster of 5 to 12 water molecules (H2O). When such cluster of water molecules is stimulated by far infrared rays, ultrasonic waves, magnetic field, or other external factors, the water molecular movement is activated due to resonance absorption and the number of water molecules forming the cluster is decreased, leading to activation of water.

If far infrared rays of about 10 m, equivalent to oscillatory wavelength range of water molecule, are irradiated, the resonance absorption occurs, leading to decrease of clusters and faster movement of water molecules. In other words, the water is activated. And such activated water is tasty.


C. Aging and growth promotion

Aging refers to a process that the protein, lipid, or carbohydrate contained in food is digested or fermented by enzymes or microorganisms. Aging of proteins, lipids, or carbohydrates usually results in unique flavors. Irradiation of far infrared rays can cause activation of microbial growth in the course of vinegar production and promote aging of fermented soybean paste. Likewise, there have been lots of studies showing that far infrared rays activate water and promote aging. For example, two months are required for aging of fruit wine under natural conditions. However, irradiation of far infrared rays accelerates the aging process and makes the fruit wine only in one day.

Activated water promotes the growth of plants. Vibration of water molecules increases, friction occurs, and water becomes cohesive. All these contribute to absorption of water. Metabolism is activated and roots take in nutrient elements, leading to promotion of growth. Further, far infrared rays promote the growth of flowering plants and enables flowers to last for longer time.



there are countless numbers of websites with information on FIR. So is bacteria house just a magic media or was it developed based on science, I think there is plenty of science to prove the latter. Hope you enjoy reading this Doug Ward.

TEWA

tewa
07-24-2005, 06:04 AM
JR

I am very happy to hear that you are going to try bacteria house, what are you planning to setup? Keep us posted.

tewa

JPR
07-24-2005, 06:44 AM
Thank you Tewa, that was funny and I enjoyed that post/tour on the powers of far infared radiation! As I said in an earlier post , you can do a simple search on the Internet and get the story about water clusters and the 'holistic stuff'. But I'm looking for the science as it pertains to the MEDIA!?
So you are of the belief that this material, sitting here on my desk, is radiating far infared rays? And that the Maeda systems run on radiation ?
JR

JPR
07-24-2005, 07:09 AM
Check it out-- ;)
http://www.biocera.co.kr/product/01_pro05.html

JR

kingkong
07-24-2005, 07:18 AM
What is the source of energy for the far-infrared rays? I understand it is electromagnetic radiation having the longest wave lengths in the infrared region between 50 and 1000 micrometers. Because the B filter is elevated from water surface and exposed to more direct light have anything to do with it?

tewa
07-24-2005, 08:34 AM
Hi JR

As I and you yourself have said that bakki showers are an excellent if not one of the best biofilters on the market, the use of far infrared rays to create active water is proven science, the fact that it has numerous health benefits is not rumour but researched science (NASA's done it) thus the koi are healthier and grow faster. Like what the other member has said there is no other filter on the market that does both biofilter and a radiating filter.

JR so what you are really saying is that the media does not emit FAR infrared radiation, but you acknowledge FAR infrared radiation does what researched science for so many years says it does? Or do you disregards both?

JR don't you think that momotaro could get sued for false advertising if the media doesn't emit FAR infared rays?

As you have no doubt done a bit of internet search and found biocera from korea, you should be able to find out that the japanese are one of the biggest users of FIR products and some of these products are marketed in US and have FDA approvals.

Do you still think that certain blends of ingredients heated at over at least 1000 degrees to form ceramic media cannot emit these FIR?

Common JR why don't you share with us what you are up to with bacteria house :cool:

Kingkong

I couldn tell you the exact mechanism of how the material emits the far infrared rays but from my shallow knowledge of physics it has something to do with the specific ingredients being heated to an extreme temperature where their atomic structure change and form what we see as the ceramic bacteria house. This changed state emits FIR indefinitely. From what I have read so far even our bodies emit FIR at around 8 to 10 micron wavelength. I am sorry I cant tell you the exact process yet of how it does but I am also sure that JR can't find the exact science to show it doesn't, right JR :yes:
Otherwise he would have posted it already.

tewa
07-24-2005, 08:38 AM
JR some more information.

The Use of Infrared Heat to Produce Cardiovascular Conditioning


The August 7, 1981 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) reported what is common knowledge today: Many people who run do so to place a demand on their cardiovascular system as well as to build muscle. What isn't well known is that it also reported the "regular use of a sauna may impart a similar stress on the cardiovascular system, and its regular use may be as effective as a means of cardiovascular conditioning and burning of calories as regular exercise."

It has been found that the infrared sauna makes it possible for people in wheelchairs, those who are otherwise unable to exert themselves, and those who won't follow an exercising/conditioning program to achieve a cardiovascular training effect. It also allows for more variety in any ongoing training program.

Blood flow during whole-body hyperthermia is reported to rise from a normal five to seven quarts a minute to as many as 13 quarts a minute.

Due to the deep penetration of infrared rays (over one and a half inches into body tissue), there is a deep heating effect in the muscle tissue and internal organs. The body responds to this heat with a hypothalamic-induced increase in both heart volume and rate. Beneficial heart stress leads to a sought-after cardiovascular training and conditioning effect. Medical research confirms the use of a sauna provides cardiovascular conditioning as the body works to cool itself and involves substantial increases in heart rate, cardiac output, and metabolic rate. As a confirmation of the validity of this form of cardiovascular conditioning, extensive research by NASA in the early 1980's led to the conclusion that infrared stimulation of cardiovascular function would be the ideal way to maintain cardiovascular conditioning in American astronauts during long space flights.

Infrared Heat, Caloric Consumption, and Weight Control In its Wellness Letter, October 1990, the University of California Berkeley reported that "the 1980's were the decade of high-impact aerobics classes and high-mileage training. Yet there was something elitist about the way exercise was prescribed: only strenuous workouts would do, you had to raise your heart rate to between X and Y, and the only way to go was to "go for the burn." Such strictures insured that most 'real' exercisers were relatively young and in good shape to begin with. Many Americans got caught up in the fitness boom, but probably just as many fell by the wayside. As we've reported, recent research shows that you don't have to run marathons to become fit - that burning just 1,000 calories a week...is enough. Anything goes, as long as it burns these calories."

Guyton's Textbook of Medical Physiology reports that producing one gram of sweat requires 0.586 kcal. The JAMA citation above goes on to state that "A moderately conditioned person can easily sweat off 500 grams in a sauna, consuming nearly 300 kcal - the equivalent of running two to three miles. A heat-conditioned person can easily sweat off 600 to 800 kcal with no adverse effect. While the weight of water loss can be regained by rehydration, the calories consumed will not be." Since a sauna helps generate two to three times the sweat produced in a conventional hot-air sauna, the implications for increased caloric consumption are quite impressive.

Assuming one takes a sauna for 30 minutes, some interesting comparisons can be drawn. Two of the highest calorie output exercises are rowing and running marathons. Peak output on a rowing machine or during a marathon burns about 600 calories in 30 minutes. An infrared sauna may better this from "just slightly" up to 250 percent by burning 900 to 2400 calories in the same period of time. It might in a single session simulate the consumption of energy equal to that expended in a six- to nine-mile run.

The infrared sauna can therefore, play a pivotal role in both weight control and cardiovascular conditioning. It is valuable for those who don't exercise and those who can't exercise and want an effective weight control and fitness maintenance program, and the benefits regular exercise contribute to such a program.

History of the Sauna and Development of Infrared Technology

The Finns popularised sauna use. Their ancient religious ceremonies used it for mental, spiritual, and physical cleansing. Use of the sauna in their religion stayed with them when they migrated between 5,000 and 3,000 BC from an area northwest of Tibet to their present location in Finland. Native American Indians used sweat lodges for cleansing and purifying, recognizing the health benefits of a sweat as well.

Dr. Tadashi Ishikawa, a member of the Research and Development Department of Fuji Medical, received a patent in 1965 for a zirconia ceramic infrared heater used in the first healing infrared thermal systems. Medical practitioners in Japan were the only ones using infrared thermal systems for 14 years. In 1979, they were finally released for public use. The technique has been further refined into infrared thermal systems that have been sold in the United States since 1981. One use of infrared heat in the United States has been in the form of panels used in hospital nurseries to warm newborns.

World-Wide Reports on Infrared Sauna Use
Over the last 25 years, Japanese and Chinese researchers and clinicians have completed extensive research on infrared treatments and report many provocative findings. In Japan, there is an "infrared society" composed of medical doctors and physical therapists dedicated to further infrared research. Their findings support the health benefits of infrared therapy as a method of healing.

There have been over 700,000 infrared thermal systems sold in the Orient for whole-body treatments. An additional 30 million people have received localized infrared treatment in the Orient, Europe, and Australia with lamps, which emit the same 2 to 25 micron wave bands as employed in a whole-body system. In Germany, physicians in an independently developed form have used whole-body infrared therapy for over 80 years.

tewa

tewa
07-24-2005, 08:47 AM
Hi JR

Just found a bit on some other materials that emit FIR

Researchers in Japan have also performed studies of this infrared energy from the human palm, which they call Kikoh. At the Niwa Institute for Immunology in Tosashimizu, Japan, researchers examined Kikoh as well as materials that emit far-infrared radiation, including common granite stone, tourmaline (a type of granite), ceramic disks and hot spring water.

tewa

tewa
07-24-2005, 09:11 AM
JR

I am sure you have read the many sites, that have explained how FIR activates water molocules by breaking the water cluster down which aids in detox and elimination of waste. It is even used in cancer therapy for humans, wouldn it be possible for the organic waste to be changed in a molecular level by FIR to something less toxic like what the other members post said and something that is either easily degassed or consumed by other bacteria?

A simple search on the net of FIR emitting ceramics yields 116000 results there are many products made from bio ceramics that emit FIR sold for improving health, what is it that makes you doubt that bacteria house does not emit FIR, or is it just the fact that momotaro came up with the idea that is so popularly used to improve human health for the koi that he loves breeding and that we users of bacteria house don't even use the benefits of FIR for ourselves but for our beloved koi! :cool:

Maybe taking a dip in the koi pond ain't so bad in summer :rolleyes:

You might say a human and a koi is different physically but I think even you can relate that the health benefits of FIR would also extend to koi, oh I forgot it has also been used for pig farming to make the pigs healthier :D:

tewa
07-24-2005, 09:42 AM
Hi stephen

I don't know about cleansing mentally and spiritually :yes: does JR need it :thinking:

Only kidding JR no offense intended at all.

All I am saying is that science has proven FIR vibrates water molecules at around 8 ot 14 microns, this aids metabolism and also detoxifying.

Maybe if JR sat in a room full of BH with him sitting in the middle he will really feel better :heyhey:

All jokes aside I think the more BH in a filter definitely the more effects of FIR on the water. This is not to say that a small amount of BH will not emit FIR but I think the effect will be related to how much water you put over the media. If a high turnover rate is used then it would make sense that more media will give larger surface area for the higher amount of water to be exposed to FIR. Many people have said that just adding 10 to 20kg of BH have resulted in increases of appetite even in submerge filters.

tewa

Gene
07-24-2005, 09:58 AM
The Finns popularised sauna use. Their ancient religious ceremonies used it for mental, spiritual, and physical cleansing.

Ain't nothing like a litte FIR to get you going. Now ya'll know why I never need any sleep! :D:

Don't try this at home.

http://www.koiclay.com/gene/fir.jpg

kingkong
07-24-2005, 10:11 AM
OK, Electromagnetic spectrum of radiation starts with visible light. Red is a long wave and violet is the short. Then there is non visible microwaves, infrared, ultraviolet light radiation, then x rays and gamma rays. Infared light (IL) has a range of wavelengths just like visible light has from red to violet. "Near IL" is the closest to visible light and "Far IL" is closer to the microwave region.
Far IL waves are thermal in the form of heat yes. When an object is not quite hot enough to radiate visible light, it will emit energy in the IL spectrum. An ice cube emits IL, but the warmer the object, the more IL radiation it emits. I guess the sun would be the largest supplier of Far IL.

JPR
07-24-2005, 11:29 AM
Tewa, we have already had these conversations about FIR technology on Koi Bito and NI way back. In America there was a fad for a while regarding magnets. The science made certain statements about magnetic fields and its benefits for healing. Soon it was for everything from human blood chemistry to emotional moods. Franchise were then sold and magnets were recommended to be worn on wrist bands and under your pillow while you sleep. In two years the fad was pretty much over.
A very popular pillow is being sold here in the states and is recommended because NASA supposedly developed this material.
I was in a noodle shop with a Japanese Breeder a few years ago and there was a chart on the wall showing how different kinds of noodles healed certain organs of the body and made them function better.
I use a fired cay ceramic media in filters on occasion that is super heated at 1200 degrees ( In fact it is one of the media I'm using now in one TT for Roddy's education). Is it of the raw materials that when heated produces radiation? Don't know- but it is a ceramic, forged at high temperature? It is pictured in the post I did showing the plastic media and the ceramic balls- similar to the ones on the Korean site by the way. Look up geolite or hydroponics and geolite. I've used it on and off for maybe a dozen years now- just a good biofilter that is semi-buoyant and easy to clean is all? No magic though--
I remain skeptical of most of the above claims. All I require is a simple explanation. How does the media actually work and what does the 'changed' mulm and waste 'turn into?'

KEWA, do you sell this media? JR
1.

JPR
07-24-2005, 11:38 AM
There are a host of these ceramic and clay materials- I guess I could microwave them!


Brand names include Hydroton, Geolite, HydroKorrels, Hydroleca, "grow rocks" ...

LECA is made by baking pure natural clay at 1200 degrees Celsius for 3 hours in rotary kilns, the end product is pH neutral, doesn't degrade and is autoclavable. Capillary action on the surface of the lightweight pebbles allows it to absorb 40% of it's weight in water and also allows for efficient evaporation to help maintain a constant humidity level.

LECA is widely available through Hydroponics outlets, many garden centers (orders may be available) and also through many concrete companies, quantities greater than a ton may apply for purchases but frequently if you tell them you only need a few pounds they may give it to you.

A similar product available mostly in Europe is Seramis. (in the USA Isolite is an equivalent)

TEWA, this is the type of detail , as limited as this is, that I would like on bacteria house. Do you have that? JR

L5Vegan
07-24-2005, 12:47 PM
I've stumbled across a new product that is similar to BH but is actually heated to temps ranging from 1,300F to 2,200F for extended periods during "manufacture". :cool:
Should have even more FIR. :yes: :yes: :cool:
Unfortunately the money just isn't there for advertising. :no: :(
LINK HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lava)

Dan :)

Hanyakoi
07-24-2005, 01:06 PM
Check it out-- ;)
http://www.biocera.co.kr/product/01_pro05.html

JR


JR, I have 1 ton of these biocera ceramic mixs imported from Korea. I believe in these products.

We did 2 test with these ceramic mixs - not with koi but with goldfishes.
Test 1

We placed 5 goldfishes in a small 1.5' tank and we used only biocera ceramic grandules. We did not water change - just top up those that was evaporated. We did no water change for 4.5 months and yet the goldfishes are alive!

Test 2

I have a 4' aquarium tank and in it I placed 9 goldfishes. This tank contains 2 kg of these biocera ceramic mixs. Today is already the 7th month with no water change! I just top up water evaporated - usually once a forthnight or once a week. No other media! The water till today are crystal clear, no slime sticks on all the glass walls of the aquarium. Can be considered clean glass walls. The goldfishes are all very healthy, continue eating and active. None died yet! **** and sediment are minimal.

Previously this tank was runned complete with media mat, coral shells, bio-rings, charcoal, etc - the complete mixs. The goldfishes won't last more than 2 months without water change, the glass walls are slimy and cloudly that you couldn't see through and **** sediments are plenty that it clogged the media mats. This method of keeping goldfishes consist alot of hardwork in upkeeping and cleaning but for the above with biocera, till today I have not done any cleaning of tank, water or media.

I attribute it to the biocera media which emits all that they claimed could do. Interesting but true!

We did other test too and the results was incredible! Believe it or not!

charlieliu
07-24-2005, 01:07 PM
I just want to share my experience with BHM. I started using Bakki with BHM on 5/1/05 on a very heavily stocked 1000 gallon pond.

Orp went from 160 to above 350 in about 50 days and stay above 350 since.
Fish are growing faster.
Colors are getting better, especially goshiki and shuishu.
Wound heals faster.
Fish are very very active.
No debris in settling tank.(had doubt about BHM being able to handle fish waste when setup the system, so a settling chamber plumb in-line with a round black matala.) I had to clean the matala twice a week. A month ago, I decided to take the matala out, water parameter got better, and I cannot see any settlement in the settling chamber.
The healthiest carpet algrea I have ever seen growing. No string algea. UV was turned off a month ago.

My conclusion is that BHM must have done something to take care of the fish waste and debris.

Here are a few shots of the pond. Look closely at the color of the algea.

charlieliu
07-24-2005, 01:12 PM
sorry, pictures did not get attached. here are the pictures.

stephen
07-24-2005, 01:17 PM
Gentlemen:) Thank you very much for your fine and respected input to this board:) Glad You are Here:yes: :cool: But.............................

Super Magical Kryptonitic Rays:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Let's sell the fine product for what it is:yes:

I mean, I mean, I am afraid the next time I open up a Koi Mag, I will see David Copperfield advertising this product:( Hopefully they don't put that 80 gallon TV pond in the same ad with a herd of large Koi stuffed in it:rolleyes: Most of the people hyping it are in some way involved in it deriving financial gain.

Some pics not using BH:)

poey
07-24-2005, 03:33 PM
hi
don't know about radioactive filter :eek:but something is definitely different.
but heres a few pics of BHM in the top trays of my showers,this has been running water straight from the b/drains for around 16months now with no filter maintenance done at all.
cheers Dave.

Gene
07-24-2005, 07:21 PM
I've stumbled across a new product that is similar to BH but is actually heated to temps ranging from 1,300F to 2,200F for extended periods during "manufacture". :cool:
Should have even more FIR. :yes: :yes: :cool:
Unfortunately the money just isn't there for advertising. :no: :(
LINK HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lava)

Dan :)

Thanks for the link, Dan! We must not forget "Nature's Own".

http://www.koiclay.com/gene/lava_rock_001.jpg

All the pieces of lava rock are about the same size and look about the same but there is a big difference in the density of them. Some are very hard and hold up well in the high flow rates needed for the Bakki Shower type filtration. The others are more porous and soft. They erode when used with the high flow rates needed to get the effects of a Bakki Shower. They are fine for slow flow rates in a trickle tower.

JPR
07-24-2005, 09:42 PM
Wow, a good flow of information from Asia and the UK. I have to admit, I see nothing new but interesting just the same.
I'll have the media when I get a free moment to pick it up. I want to try the media in a system I know like the back of my hand so that I can assess the media's role in 'change', if change does indeed occur. I would also like to try this media in a green water situation as it will tell me a lot about it's ability to change water. Lastly, I would like to then switch back to plastic and my geolite media to observe degenerative change once again, if any.
Honestly, the "Great Apple Juice Bottle' experiment series ( binding experiments at different pH levels) experiments along with the variations on nitrification cycles in a full TT system has me pretty busy right now. But once the media is installed in the big towers, the BH study should be pretty straight forward.
Thanks for the offer stephen, on the equipment, but I think I'm set? I'll let you know.
Also many thanks to a special dealer for offering the use of BH for the tests. I'll take very good care of it and will return it loaded with bacteria ( that is a GOOD THING! LOLs )
JR

JPR
07-24-2005, 09:47 PM
P.S.- this is a look at probably the OLDEST BH media in continuous use. It does get pretty 'mature' looking after several years. JR

charlieliu
07-24-2005, 11:44 PM
Hype or not, I see real differences. Clear water is one thing, clear water plus healthy, vibrant fish is another. I am just happy that my maintenance time is cut way down. No matala to clean, what a hassle it is to drag it out of the settling tank and hose it off. I am no scientist, nor a water parameter guy, but result is what makes me happy about it. This is the closest thing to a maintenance free filtration as it can get.

tewa
07-25-2005, 12:11 AM
hey stephen/JR

I am not here hiding the fact that I am the momotaro agent of australia, but as you all well know that australia doesnn import koi and the koi industry is small. I still have my day job as i will never see being a momotaro agent here in Australia ever capable of earning me a living :crybaby:, I wish it did. Whether I sell a little more bacteria house or a lot more bacteria house makes not much difference to me I just love the hobby. I am only 25 and not at a retiring age and depend my pension on this business. I don't normally post on this board but since you didn't post on koi bito I had to post here, can't seem to get an account on NI to post there.

JR no I don't have the report to be quite honest, never asked for one. Mike may have one, I have a feeling it wasnt done in english but I guarantee that there is one, does that help :D: ? Do you know someone that can read fluent scientific japanese terms for you JR.

JR you keep asking for science of what it does, and I keep asking for science of your scepticsm and whether you can prove it :bored: . I haven got a english report but at least there is one, can you bring up one report that says it doesn't emit FIR? The other member posted that you could bring BH to a geology department and get them to test the FIR emission and water conductivity. And he reckons to do a proper test to find what FIR would do with these filters and long term fish growth would cost millions, I can't comment on that but I look forward to whatever you are trying to test.

So what is this test method of yours JR, I know you wouldn try to setup some stupid experiment to try and prove BH doesn't work. I think everyone is very interested. Are you going to stick to what maurice recommend or what momotaro recommends? I think to be fair you should really follow the flow rates that momotaro recommends go for three times turnover an hour pull from bottom drain and skimmer and do normal water changes that is realistic for the given load. I know you are the guru and there is no need for me to tell you how to test it, but I and every bakki supporter would like to see you do it the way its recommended. How long will you run the test for at least a year I hope cause ultimately you want to see the result in the fish. What are the parameters you are trying to monitor, it wouldn be fun for the rest of us if you just kept it secret :no:

I read in NI (I still cant post there) you keep going on and on about the tap being beside the pond, and I can't understand the point you are chasing after :confused: . Are you still on about the must have golden rule of ten percent water add in (I thought we all talked about it already, at least on Koi Bito) or were you just trying to let the rest of the folks know its convenient to have a tap near the pond.

I am glad to see that whatever has been posted by UK and asia posters has nothing new for you JR though its interesting :heyhey: , it goes to show that it does what it says from day one, don't you think :yes: ?

And in regards to your continuos post of that lovely picture of the longest running bakki shower and bacteria house at momotaro, its really a nice picture I don't see whats wrong with it.

best regards
tewa

ShiroMujiGirl
07-25-2005, 02:17 AM
Three times an hour turnover rate? Maybe is a holding tank but in most places in the USA with descent sized multithousand gallon koi ponds that is not going to happen because of the price of electricity. I would have to turn 36,000 gallons an hour on a 12,000 gallon system. I won't do it and its not neccessary. Once an hour does it.

Tewa- Roark, Savannah and I tested BH for FIR. There isn't any. It does alter the taste of alcohol esters but when wrapped in plastic, no change. Rays would go through plastic. Boy, that was a fun experiment. Anyone can do it. Try it yourselves.

JR, isn't backyard science fun?

kingkong
07-25-2005, 07:59 AM
Charge on, just trying to keep up.
FIR far-infrared waves
BH Bakki house or bacteria house or Biohome
BHM bacteria house medium or media
BS Bakki shower
TT trickle tower
BM bio media
BB bio balls
TBT trickle bio-tower
BSF bio-sand filter
BF bio filtration
SMG simulated microgravity or Shiro Muji Girl
BT Bakki trickle

Kaldnes- plastic cylinder about 1/2 inch long, 3/8 in. dia. center cross
Geolite Balls- baked clay our silica, kiln fired, excellent aeration
Bio-tube aquamedia- tubular plastic cylinders with a Y cross, round gears
Matala filter bio-media - excellent interstitial space in a matt
AlphaGrog- ceramic rock, highly porous, popcorn random shaped
Ultra bio media- plastic sinking high biofilm surfaced 1/2 inch noodles
Aquarock- couldn't tell ya if there was one in my underwear
Momo Bakki house media- porous ceramic cylinders with FIR emissions
Lava rock- natural Igneous volcanic rock, many colors, densities, very porous
Biohome- sintered glass biomedia

Good word droppers to know

Interstitial- related to or situated in small narrow spaces in porous substances
Polycarbonate- polyester thermoplastic, used for riot shields and helmets

Campcheryl
07-25-2005, 01:28 PM
This has been interesting and finally many truths have emerged. If a person/company wants to sell their product, I would think they would know all the ins and outs of the product. I don't feel it's up to a consumer to prove to the seller why the product is not what it claims to be. A good discussion is how we all learn but when the seller gets a bit hot under the collar and can not give full explainations of the product, my doubts as a consumer increases. There are many wonderful and intelligent folks in the koi world,mostly hobbiest. Many have been in the hobby more years than some are of age. I thank those that have tried to help all of us understand every aspect to claims/advertisements. For tomorrow new technologies will emerge.

Cheryl

charlieliu
07-25-2005, 01:51 PM
It seems kind of odd about all the arguments going on here. We are talking about one product, Bateria house media. For a koi hobbyist, what is IMPORTANT is that a product WORKS.

Do I care how it work? In a way, but not since I am not a scientist, I leave that to the scientist.

Does the product do the job and perform the function it purports to do?
This should be based on real life experiences of the people who used the product. So far, I have not seen or read one instance that someone used BHM and do not see significant improvement in all aspects of his hobby, I mean, water quality, fish health, fish growth, more time to enjoy your fish and less time in maintenance. Is not that what everybody is chasing after? To create a healthy enviroment that your koi can grow and grow to its potential?

Do I care if BHM emit infra-red light? Do I care is that what makes BHM works? In a way, but not really.

Luke Frisbee posted an interesting musing on how BHM work:
(Quote) "Lava rock and BHM have spaces inwhich microbes and bacteria can colonize and form deep, complex, stable relationships. I think that the space within the media itself provide a significant area for the setting up of some symbiotic relationships that haven't been examined.
I feel as though a peice of BHM or Lava rock becomes an organism unto itself, similar in cell association to jellyfish. Jelly fish have no central nervous system nor a transport system (circulatory system) yet somehow all the cells of a jellyfish share a successful kill. And the waste products created by internal cells are taken up and used by other cells or transported away as waste THROUGH OTHER CELLS.
These bit of media may harbor cell colonies that form such alliances and are therefore solid living communities that act as complex organisms...the spaces within the media become entirely filled with biomass that filter feeds from the flowing water.
And until i am shown how i am wrong that is what I feel is happening....the media provides the right spaces for these complex relationships to occur and remain. the entire space within and on the surface of a bit of BHM or Lava rock is a city of single cell organisms maintaining each other." (end quote)

Why people who do not use BHM are doubters and naysayers?
I am a doubter before I tried it.

What is wrong with promoting BHM if you see and know it will help people to avoid pitfall and achieve what they set out to do? That is to enjoy your koi instead of chasing after them.

Imagine a stalled car on a highway, is that fun? No. Most amater hobbyist' ponds are like a car that sooner or later will be stalled on a highway. It will do one of two things to the hobbyist, make him lose interest in the hobby or make him set out on a journey to improve his pond.

I did the latter, and I am extremely pleased that I had the gut to try it. I have to say BHM does do wonderful things to your koi and pond.

I do think it is quite expensive. I am not a dealer of any sort, but I will try buy in bulk and share with other people who want to try and make it less expensive.

cheers

sundan
07-25-2005, 02:20 PM
Tewa,
Your knowledge about bakki shower is auesome. So with that would like to ask question. Been running my bakki shower about a 1 year now outside. Media is very black now. I did break one to see how it look inside and it is still white at bottom. My question is , will media have to be replace down the road a couple of years like you do with lava rock? Does Momotaro acid wash his media when he cleans his 15 ton pond? Thanks.

JPR,
It cost me $2000 for Momotaro media for my bakki shower. It must have cost a treasure box fortune to replace matting filter. Can you post some photos of your water, it must look like mountain spring water... I am seeing good growth, clean water, Ray Abel koi food helps alot too 55% protein.

ajm808
07-25-2005, 02:38 PM
i don't know how or pretend to know how it works but mine works for me mine has roughly 3500 uk gallons an hour going over it the fish are healthy and eating for england.
also i am getting very good growth it has been running for one year and i would not want to be without it.
it is on an outside pond coverd with polycarbonat sheet to stop the wind chill
which works well.

Gene
07-25-2005, 03:57 PM
Below is a picture taken in 2000. The filter was a shower tower I built out of some commercial plastic drip pans in 1997. I used those and some other pieces and parts from around the farm to build it. I took that picture primarily to show the comets and Shubunkins to someone on another forum. Over the three years that filter had been in use I had kept up to 100 six inch koi for several months with no health problems what so ever. They were fed heavy. The water remained crystal clear and I never had any problem with debris building up on the bottom of the tank. I did do a 10% water change each week. There were four drip pans 21" in diameter with 3/8" holes drilled all over the bottom. Each one contained 1/2 cubic foot of the fake lava rock (steel mill clinkers) I bought from Lowe's for about $8.00. That was a total of 2 cubic feet. The tank contained 500 gallons of water. The pump was a Pondmaster 1200 gph submersible mounted directly below the filter raised about 8" off the bottom of the tank. I used a 1-1/2" ABS pipe from the outlet of the pump running straight up through the center of the pans. The flow exited the top of the pipe into another drip pan with holes but no media. That was for water distribution. I left the filter out of that picture because it was so ugly. There was no pre-filtration on the pump. I used a piece of slotted plastic over the intake to keep the fish out.

The second picture is the same type of filter that I set-up outside a couple of years ago. I used that tank for Dale and Patti's quarantine tank since I couldn't find a new one at the time.

http://www.koiclay.com/filters/comets_001.jpg

http://www.koiclay.com/filters/shower_tower_001.jpg

JPR
07-25-2005, 05:20 PM
Sundan, what is this- show and tell?! LOLs Here's a shot from a few years back- need to get some new ones, but then again, my water always looks the same- thank God! ;) JR

JPR
07-25-2005, 05:22 PM
I take that back- winter ! JR

Campcheryl
07-25-2005, 05:23 PM
Actually what really matters is to remember the pond is a system. I am not sold that one thing on a pond is what gives this fantastic growth. It all has to work together. That means the media, filter(s), water quality, food and even the fish. I do agree that as long as you are happy with your system and the maintenance involved to keep the system in top shape....fantastic. Happy pondering.

Cheryl

JPR
07-25-2005, 05:27 PM
Indoor pond/quarantine water. JR

JPR
07-25-2005, 05:29 PM
Close up of my TTs. JR

JPR
07-25-2005, 05:42 PM
And this funny looking monstrosity is a home made TT/wet/dry I experimented with in 1986-89 or so. The funny think about this ugly beast is that you can see the water falls down into that plexi rectangular center piece. It has 3 shelves with filter material- so that raw water falls from shelf to shelf in sheets of water- like bakki trays ( only I cleaned it!) . It then hits the base of the rubbermaid and falls into the lower rubbermaid- filled with that ceramic media I mentioned. From there, it is pumped up into the TTs ( as a secondary filter loop) and then back into the base again- then back to the 600 gallon aquarium in the kitchen. Kinda looks like Willie Wanka's chocolate factory doesn't it? ;) Somebody- lock me up! ;) JR

JPR
07-25-2005, 05:51 PM
You know Cheryl, you have said something very wise there. In an interview with Momotaro ( I'm pretty sure in Koi-Bito magazine?) he said that no single factor accounts for jumbo growth. If one thing is off, according to Maeda, all is lost. If food and diet are wrong you won't succeed. If the diet is right but the water quality is off you won't succeed. And if the maintenance is not followed you lose again. He summed it up by saying no one aspect can be pointed to as being more important than the others.
I think you can find the interview in one of the first few issues Brain Sousa did with Momotaro back in 2002-03?
Anyone interested in this stuff should try and get all Koi-Bito back issues, they are excellent.
JR

ShiroMujiGirl
07-26-2005, 01:53 AM
Tewa evidenly doesn't know SMG has been running a Bakki Shower test for the past year and a half.

Mate, I thought Austrailians usually out Texas Texans. I have heard comments from yall such as, "Texas? We have sheep stations that size". I thought yall knew the meaning of good sized.

Run a three times an hour turn over rate in a 5000 LITER system? Thats only 2500 gallons! Thats like a holding tank for tosai. My Q tank alone 5000 gallons. My pond is 48,0000 liters so I would have to turn 150,000 liters an hour Maeda's way. PEOPLE DON'T NEED TO TURN 3 TIMES AN HOUR FOR THE THING TO WORK. We are not all Japanese millionaires here.

Tell you what else. No difference between the performance of lava rock and BH for media in the thing either.

Gene
07-26-2005, 02:19 AM
Tell you what else. No difference between the performance of lava rock and BH for media in the thing either.

I've been preaching that ever since the Bakki Shower and Bacteria House media was introduced to the market. Most just ignore me. I guess those that have already spent the money have to justify their doing so. Those that are selling it need to sell it, especially if they have already invested lots of money in inventory. I could have offered it for sell when it first came into the US and did consider it. I got a sample and compared it to lava rock and like you, SMG, I could not justify the expense. If I were to convince someone to buy this media for $100 per cubic foot as opposed to paying $4.00 per cubic foot for lava rock I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. :D:

JPR
07-26-2005, 07:31 AM
Jeeeesssss! Tantrum over yet, Tewa?! No ice cream for you! ;)
Laddy, first of all, who said I was talking about Sakai ? Sakai is only ONE breeder I admire . I admire several others as well. Lets not get ‘projecting again’. I’m not committed to anyone in the way you suggest. More passive aggressive stuff on your part I think?
As for my age? We all get there my friend. Just close your eyes and it will happen. The trade off is you also gain wisdom and perspective. Something I think a pup like yourself needs badly.

So you suggested I get a geological report to prove there are rays coming out of the ceramic. Yet you, a sole exclusive importer haven’t tested it? You are selling it to the public based on what? Faith? No wonder a lone wolf like myself makes you nervous! For your sake, I hope the Emperor turns out to have clothing on!

Meanwhile back at the ranch- TTs and wet/drys will improve almost any system and impress almost everyone who uses one for the first time. This would include a bakki style wet/dry. The details of long term performance then, is the only thing left to improve or debate. IF the difference between a bakki and any other wet/dry comes down to THE MEDIA, and the media called BH has radiation as an added special form of filtration, then we are talking about something ‘different’. Otherwise get in line- there are about three dozen other forms of media available for wet/dry systems.

I’m apparently a victim of education? I know a little about fish physiology. And a little about biochemistry. I understand how the levels of pollution and the general grade of water quality will negatively effect growth. I do not understand how perfect water can be more perfect in terms of growing carp? Once the proper microbial species are present, balanced and in equilibrium with the nutrient sources put out by fish and outside world, the water is conditioned and mellow.
And once water is at oxygen saturation levels for temperature, you can’t get ‘more’. In fact, ‘more’ is a bad thing at a point.

So I’m left with the radiation rays from the media as the only variable? And I’m concerned about organic content that is not drawn off the closed system. The marketing insists that it is all true but they can’t prove a thing. Only their observations are that it is a miracle of sorts. I’m asked, as a amateur hobbyist , to lay out $2000- $4000 and accept it all on blind faith. So this is the phenomena I have chosen to explore. The observation and the explanation. That is all I’m interested in. If I , as an extension of this curiosity, mess with business interests- so be it- you’d think on some level these guys would be grateful! I understand that this stuff costs a fortune to import and stock ( shipping alone can be thousands) and the stainless steel trays are also ‘spendy’, BUT ‘refunds’ are even more expensive and can destroy a small business! It would be wise to have some perspective on the science before going gang busters on the inventory, wouldn’t it?

At any rate, mine is only intellectual curiosity. And I’ve never been one of life’s lemming. Nothing to do with money, other breeders I admire for their fish producing skills or defense of some other filter product. I’m free to explore and I’m love’n it.

Do I hold a grudge against you? In real life, I run a program where I hire MBAs for the firm I consult for. Young pups like yourself, full of **** and vigor. I like being around them, lots of energy! You just can’t leave rakes and such laying about or they will surely step on them and knock themselves out! ;) No grudges- I like your passion. But you could loose the passive aggressive streak - it does you no favor and makes you as readable as a koi magazine! ;)

Gramps

Hanyakoi
07-26-2005, 07:52 AM
Hype or not, I see real differences. Clear water is one thing, clear water plus healthy, vibrant fish is another. I am just happy that my maintenance time is cut way down. No matala to clean, what a hassle it is to drag it out of the settling tank and hose it off. I am no scientist, nor a water parameter guy, but result is what makes me happy about it. This is the closest thing to a maintenance free filtration as it can get.


You are right on the dot! Clear water plus healthy, vibrant koi. Almost close to maintenance free.

The days before I added 100kg of BH to my TT system, my sub-chambered filter system needed to be clean once every 2 months, (other than the weekly normal hosing of matala media) where I have to take out all the media from the sub-chambers - bio-rings, corals, brushes, media mats, etc. Wow! was it dirty! The chambers are full of sludge, likewise heavy coatings of sludge on all media.

Today, for almost a year, I did not do any cleaning of chambers. There hardly was any sludge or sediments in the 1st brushes chamber (when I flushed the water out with a submerged pump I have installed in the 1st chamber). Water remains good and koi are growing healthyly - all 40+ in a 12ton pond. All ranging from 50Bu-65BU+. If I would have maintained my sub-chambered filtration system plus my heavy feeding - I am sure it wouldn't be able to take that heavy load. Well, today I am happy with the present set-up.

For BHM: tewa, dubtaco, hanyakoi, salfiery, poey, L5vegan, charlieliu, sundan, maurice, khoffman19, ajm808, mike sandan & nigel, luke frisbee, rogermoo, momotaro & the advocator brian sousa - total: 17

Against BHM: JR, schildkoi, koiphenatic, gene, biuOTMS, Stephen Koiphen, shiromujigirl, chricC - total: 8

Looks like there are people who believe in it, wants to believe in it, have tried it and believe in it.

JPR
07-26-2005, 08:21 AM
Hanya, not 'against' just skeptical about certain claims. And for conversation sake it is wise to divide this discussion up into:

1) the media itself. Its powers and special attributes

2) the concept of the shower design ( without prefilter or sump) and maintenance technique.

In my case I will be testing the media as I already have extensive experience with TTs and there overall benefits. I think this will be a unique view since I will not be overly influenced by the 'change' that occurs in a system when going from simple submerged to elevated wet/dry.
I'm stunned that you guys have not figured out where the sludge is in a bakki only system? Where do you think it goes Hanya?

If you read the interview in Bito with Maeda, he says the average hobbyist only needs to clean the BH once a year at most but that he cleans it more often- once to twice a month depending on stocking levels. But now it seems that no cleaning is needed at all ? Not suggesting anything sinister here ( I haven't cleaned my TTs since they were set up in 1988!) just wondering if somthing is being lost in the marketing?
JR

Hanyakoi
07-26-2005, 08:46 AM
]Hanya, not 'against' just skeptical about certain claims. And for conversation sake it is wise to divide this discussion up into:

1) the media itself. Its powers and special attributes

2) the concept of the shower design ( without prefilter or sump) and maintenance technique.[/I]


Yep! That would be interesting! At least now we koikochi know how you are going about in your tests - which means as a stand-alone media with no prefilter, sump or sub-chambered filters. That's good! Keep it up Gramp JR.

In my case I will be testing the media as I already have extensive experience with TTs and there overall benefits. I think this will be a unique view since I will not be overly influenced by the 'change' that occurs in a system when going from simple submerged to elevated wet/dry.

In my case, I have tried testing the bioceramic grandules (1kg) in a small 1.5' aqurium with 5 goldfishes with no water change for approx. 5 months and no other media (no bio-rings/coral/green matts/charcoal/etc). These goldfishes did not die eventhough I do daily twice feeding. They remain healthy and vigor for 5 months. No slimy sludge builds up on the glass nor was ****/sediment was found lying aroung at the bottom. Would appreciate if you could explain why? Becos normally when I keep goldfishes aquarium using the old method (bio-ring/coral/green mat) I needed to do water change biweekly (worst, worst once a month) or else all the goldfishes will die one after another.

I'm stunned that you guys have not figured out where the sludge is in a bakki only system? Where do you think it goes Hanya?

Well, to me, becos I draws water from the pond and does heavy flushing on the BH setted in the TT, I presume these sediments are broken into minute pieces which are not noticeable with our eyes and got drawn back into the pond water and this process are repeated time again and again - till they are so micronic that you thought they are no longer there. Gramp JR, your explanation please.

If you read the interview in Bito with Maeda, he says the average hobbyist only needs to clean the BH once a year at most but that he cleans it more often- once to twice a month depending on stocking levels. But now it seems that no cleaning is needed at all ? Not suggesting anything sinister here ( I haven't cleaned my TTs since they were set up in 1988!) just wondering if somthing is being lost in the marketing? JR

Yep Gramp JR, Maeda might be wrong initially in his initial setting (cos I think what he does is based on 'guts feelings' and not scientific facts), so over a period of time (or years), he realised it would be better if he does more cleaning if his stocks level is high. Well, I think no cleaning is needed at all - ie if your pond stocks level is low and you do minimal feeding and not heavy feeding like what I am doing. Right? Or wrong... Gramp JR, please explain.

Thanks & Cheers.

JPR
07-26-2005, 08:55 AM
Hanya, in response to your conversational post–

I’m looking for anything that even hints that there is something ‘different’ about the media. I will leave it in for an extended period- a year is fine. Maybe I will be able to say something definitive in a matter of weeks or months? Don’t know?

I will test with the usual test kits, my ORP meters, oxygen meters, do a bacteria count and maybe I’ll spring for conductivity meter so I can speak the language of the true believers! ;)

I’d like to keep the water change schedule similar to what I normally do so that I can keep variables close. I do more than 10% a month and would continue along those lines.

The question about blowers is a compound question really. We realized years ago in this hobby that when we heavily aerated, the fish ate better, were more active and ‘colored up’. This was due partly to the BOD in a given closed system and partly due to trapped gas issues. The churning of the surface with vigorous aeration definitely improves gas exchange and raises oxygen levels towards saturation. This is , of course, due to agitation that increases surface area and some , but limited, transfer of oxygen from rising bubbles. A TT or wet/dry supercharges this exchange rate ( oxygen in, carbon dioxide , nitrogen gases out) and really helps to remove gaseous forms of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate all along the conversion chain- reducing the overall output of an overly active nitrification rate in the process. A very definite benefit from a bakki or any other well designed TT or wet/dry. When I designed that monstrosity I posted above, I created that rectangular tower with three trays so that water had to fall in thin pencil like sheets to the next tray. This was strictly meant to degas/off gas and oxygenate. I recognized this in Maeda’s mind’s eye the minute I first saw his old Bakki showers on the big pond on my visit to his place. He added the speed to the water movement, changing it from a TT to a wet/dry as the organic material needs to be coped with in some way. Pulverizing it, keeping it oxygenated and isolated is one way of coping. In effect, low stocking rates, degassing and semi open system designs all lead towards a ‘cleaner less burdened system’ to begin with. The variation from base line readings then is small- resulting in fish that are on a more even keel with their environment.
I still use aeration in my submerged chambers. Even though the TTs always keep the environmental oxygen levels at saturation. Why? Because microbiologists tell us that localized zones especially within the biofilm vary widely. It certainly can be revealed with the moving around of an ORP probe. Place the meter near a return or water fall and you will get a higher reading then in the sump or prefilter.
On a side note- I was kinda shocked to hear that some of the true believers are using UV lights and shining them down on the sump!!! The sump is a incubator for less desirable bacteria, for sure. But shining a UV bulb hung 15 inches or even 5 inches over a water surface will NOT kill bacteria in a three foot water column? As I said, I was shocked to hear anyone thinks UV bulbs have this type of power! Or that mulm can be sterilized! Not making fun here! Only to say- if someone believes that this can happen, is it such a leap to believe that they also accept blindly that rays come from the ceramic media and make mulm and DOCs become ‘nothingness’? I guess not!

Gotta go put my false teeth in now and soak my bunions-- ;) Gramps

JPR
07-26-2005, 09:07 AM
Off to the office to keep the 'kids' out of trouble but before I go--

Hanya, that experiment you did on the goldfish was not lost on me the first time you posted those observations. Don't let this get out but I also keep those Chinese mutations from time to time! ;) And I appreciate how sensitive they can be to deteriorating water conditions in an aquarium. So the idea that they demonstrated no 'slow down' or moping after the normal between water change time interval is very intriguing and makes me want to know more—

I agree that the outcome of the heavy flow rate is for oxygen levels to combat anaerobic potential and also to ‘self clean’ the media. This would have to result in pulverized material. But just like free ammonia, if you provide it, the companion bacteria will come- organics must also have a companion bacteria. And these bacteria must be kept at bay or as so much white background noise - in a closed system anyway. Semi open system- a different story I think?

I need to wander around the house now to try and find my car keys-- now where did I leave the ****** car? Gramps

ShiroMujiGirl
07-26-2005, 12:24 PM
What is this? SMG against BH? Not at all. Its just that lava rock ius JUST AS GOOD and doesn't cost 1000s of dollars.

I ran a BH against lava rock test in fulll on heavily stocked 3500 gallon systems for a year. Set up as Maeda calls it too, except for once an hour turn over as is more in step with the real world. Not as a whimpybutt add on either after other filters, but pumped straight off the bottom. And the outflow water was and is off the top, not from a sump or bottom drain. Both work great, GREAT! But except for one thing..... you turn that inflow/outflow water off and the whole thing goes to hell. Not a lot of DOC suddenly evident, but a dangerous sewerage smell and cloud comes to the water, heavy feed or not.

As to FIR, nothing is changing the taste of alcohol esters when the media is made impervious by wrapping in plastic and immersed in the adult beveage. Soaked when not wrapped in plastic, it does. Now, if FIR was responsible as Japanese magic science ( or somebody with a business interest ) says it is, then the rays would go right through the plastic and alter the taste. So.... what is taking the bite out of alcohol esters when BH has direct contact with the fluid? Has to be some kind of buffer. We ( Roark and company, Roark has the sacred piece now ) notice that the BH soaking in Roark's favorite ETOH ester seems to be dissolving.

Gene
07-26-2005, 02:07 PM
Against BHM: JR, schildkoi, koiphenatic, gene, biuOTMS, Stephen Koiphen, shiromujigirl, chricC - total: 8

You misunderstand me. I'm not against the Bacteria House media. I think it is an excellent media for a shower tower. I just can't for the life of me justify the cost of it. If it were reasonably priced I'd buy some myself. Actually, if I could afford to buy it I'd just produce my own for a lot less. :D:

Like SMG, what I'm saying is the lava rock or the fake lava rock (steel mill clinkers) give the same effect. I ran one for a total of 7 years. I built mine before I even heard of Maeda San and his Bakki Showers. I still don't know exactly what happens to the crap, but it wasn't in the tank. :no: I really don't care as long as it is gone. When I have the time I'll be adding a shower tower to all my holding tanks, but I won't be using the BH. I could pay off the farm for what that would cost me. :yes:

JPR
07-26-2005, 02:50 PM
I may have to take the ceramic radiation a little more seriously TEWA after reading this recommendation! We old guys have lots of problems with our prostates!


Swelling of the Prostate Gland in Men

It is common for men to suffer from swollen Prostate Gland, especially men in their forties. It has become an inconvenience to them and common symptoms include weakness and difficulty in the excretion of urine, nutria and in serious cases, inability to urinate. At the same time, it may lead to a decline in sexual functions.

Those who suffer from the swelling of the Prostate Gland normally also suffer from Prostatitis or even cancer of the Prostate Gland and is one of the common killer of men.

The prostate gland is the organ responsible for the production of male hormones and sperm and is very important to men.

The reason for occurrence of disorders of the Prostate Gland is normally related to excessive sexual activity and hygienic reasons. During sexual intercourse, the Prostate Gland expands due to an increase in the supply of blood before ejaculation can occur. If the blood supply to the Prostate Gland is always high, it will lead to clotting of the in the blood vessels that supply blood to the Prostate Gland thus causing it to swell permanently. When the swollen Prostate Gland presses against the urethra, various symptoms of difficulty in urination will occur. Unclean sex life will cause inflammation of the Prostate Gland which will result in swelling of the Prostate Gland.

Therapy using medicine and surgery will of course be very effective. However, such methods of treatment will harm the Prostate Gland itself and this will cause problem to men.

The fibers in FIR ( Far infared ) underwear are embedded with bio-ceramic materials. It is able to emit FIR which directly penetrates the body through the skin. Under the influence of FIR, blood circulation to the lower part of the body will be improved. Prostate Glands which are swollen and filled with blood clots will be normalized again and blood circulation to such areas will be improved, thus restoring their flexibility and their natural functions. As such, the swelling will be reduced gradually until it normalize, improving health conditions and reducing suffering. At the same time, it also revives and elevates the sexual function of men. In this respect, FIR underwear is unique for those suffering from ailments of the Prostate Gland and is also the best way of maintaining health. There is no need for injections or medicines. It treats and relieves suffering in daily life.

If is for the prevention of ailments of the Prostate Gland, then FIR underwear should be used a very early stage. It is capable of maintaining the normal functioning of the Prostate Gland and prevents ailments.

CONCLUSION:

There are various types of FIR health care products. As stated above, there are many uses in wearing FIR .Actually, with the different products and applications, they offer many other health keeping effects.

We suffer from various types of ailments. No matter what the ailments are, they are directly connected with internal disorders of our body. Blood circulation, especially the condition of the micro-circulatory system directly affects the health condition of our bodies. This is in line with the traditional Chinese medical principle that "If it is unblocked, then it is not painful; and if it is painful, then it must be blocked".

If we can fully understand the properties and applications of FIR and fully utilize the FIR health keeping products it will definitely bring about better health to more people.

Note:

The Utilization of BIO-Ceramics which are capable of emitting FIR has been the subject of research of medical personnel and scientists from China, Japan and Korea who have been continuously researching into various fields of application of such material for the sake of human health.

As a leader in the introduction of FIR health products, the essential knowledge of various countries and in accordance with the weather, geographical conditions and culture of this region has introduced FIR health products into our daily lives. It has brought about a sharing of knowledge without considerations of national boundaries with only one common objective; to bring about a better and healthier lifestyle for mankind through the usage of FIR products as an alternative medicine.

We hope that our health and wellness products may be able to help you to rectify certain health problems you may have or to enable you to enhance your health for the future. Feel free to call us toll-free if we can be of assistance at 1---

Now I'm not sure if I should spend my money on the biomedia or the underwear? What's a guy to do? ;) JR

Roddy Conrad
07-26-2005, 05:15 PM
Well, can it possibly be? Can JR and Roddy be in agreement over SOMETHING finally in the koi hobby? Is this even possible?

I refer to valuing lava rock as highly as BH media in a trickle tower or shower construction. Like JR and SMG says, their performance is not easily distinguishable in that service. But don't use either of them in submersible service, a bad idea, both would be expected to give problems in submersible service, but do great in trickle tower and shower filter service. Meaning, I think, we agree on this point.

And I even agree on another point. After moving around a lot of lava rock shower and trickle tower filters, I bought about $700 worth of bioballs for new shower filter use, at 64 years young I will let others break their backs carrying around lava rock to various ponds and various tests, I find bioballs to be a lot more expensive, but in the end the lack of visits to the back specialist when carrying around bioballs balances out their cost for me. If you are younger with a strong back, use the lava rock, it is much more trickle tower filtration for the money spent. And I don't plan to get rid of any of my lava rock, I just don't plan on moving it around any more than absolutely neccessary.

The things I disagree with JR on this subject is how to instruct DIY folks to make their own trickle tower or shower filter. If you use a tall tower, and distribution plates, you will spend a lot of time building it for no good reason. Instead, hide a bunch of KoiBoy's plastic crates in a stack and put a spray bar over the top of them in a few minutes. It is cheaper, faster, and works better than that other complicated alternate approach. The complicated alternate approach is distribution plates, high towers, and pumped counter current air, with a place for the air to leave the top of the tower. Ugh, I got better things to do with my time. Okay, it can be elegant and very good function, for those who like complications. I like the KISS principle, meaning Keep It Simple Stupid. But to each their own.

All in all, JR and I aren't very far apart in technical aspects of this subject, it is the manner of presentation and personality that is widely different. Or at least I hope my manner of presentation and personality is very different, you be the judge.......

Carloskoi
07-26-2005, 05:32 PM
SMG-how much flow through were you doing on this system?

ShiroMujiGirl
07-26-2005, 05:56 PM
Trickles of well water 1/2" across into 3500 gallon tanks on both systems once they cycled. This was and is added at the top of the showers.

When in the first month of cycling process and I had to lock up the nitrogenous wastes I changed 350 gallons in both tanks every day. I topped up with fresh water and the appropriate amounts of sodium thiosulfate and salt to protect the 26 big adult koi in each tank from ammonia and nitrite. The ammonia levels went as high as 4 PPM during the second week of the cycle. After the filters cycled at about 4 weeks I had a big suspended algae bloom and DOC, looked like someone had poured in soap. Thats when I started the semi open system, when I didn't have to maIntain an ammonia binder and salt concentration any longer. After a couple of more months the water went clear and has stayed gin clear. But turn that water off and in a few days----stinko.

saltiery
07-26-2005, 10:04 PM
I agree with the concept, but couldn't possibly justify purchasing the media... It's the ONLY place I would consider using lava rock ... but would prefer something plastic.

tewa
07-27-2005, 03:07 AM
SMG

Like I said before how you choose to run your ponds is entirely up to you. All I am saying is if you gonna test something why not test it properly. 5000L was a small figure as an eg if you don't have the money for the electricity bill.

I will be building a 13157 gallon pond and turning it over 42150 gallons (all us gallons an hour). These will go over all my showers at 1.2m high. Wha you choose to do is up to you. i will be using 1 single pump that will use 1500 watts consumption wattage. I am sure there are people in US that can afford it after all some of them will easily spend that amount on an imported koi.

You seem to make it a sin when someone believes in their product and sells tries to support his product. If I was the only one trying to support a product that everyone else on the forum thinks is useless then yeah by all means try and condemn me but when there are more supporters than non supporters that don't have a "vested interest" supporting and shouting out the same things, it can't be just for moneys sake.

tewa

tewa
07-27-2005, 03:15 AM
gene

i can sleep well tonight, tomorrow night and every other night selling bacteria house because it is better than lava rock.

Are you trying to imply that myself and other dealers and agents are unethical because we sell BH.

let me ask you a question if lava rock was that good why would momotaro not use it, you think they don't have lava rock. You might say they are just trying to bring it out to sell another product. Let me ask you this then you think they will make more money on selling bacteria house or save more money using lava rock that is 96% cheaper. Since you run maybe 5 to 7 small ponds imagine the savings for maeda for his 1500ton, 2 x 500ton, numerous 10, 20, 80 and 100 ton ponds.

SMG

If using the BH at 1 time an hour was as good as three times an hour why the heck would maeda not do it, imagine his electric bill savings (even when they are running extremely efficient pumps).

tewa

tewa
07-27-2005, 04:11 AM
JR

Sorry JR I know I said I would not post anymore but you are probably use to people letting you have the last valiant speech to end a great debate. After leaving the forum for one night i came back to see what i expected another post from you, even when you have asked me to let it be on your previous post and especially after I have publicly announced taking my chill pill. Now I need another one :)

will not argue with the fact that wisdom and experience comes with age. As to whether the old (yourself) should act wiser and of his age or the young (myself) should get wiser i leave for others to decide. I know where I stand :yes:

you don't have to worry JR, about my case. Momotaros results along with many UK hobbyist results were enough to convince me especially after testing it myself. You a lone wolf (old lone wolf) make me nervous, oHHHH please don't flatter yourself, i can sell no bacteria house for a year and it won't worry me i will enjoy the high growth rates, great lustre and shine my own koi will have. Also JR it must have not occurred to you that momotaro could get sued for false advertising if BH doesn't emit FIR, don't you think that his name and reputation in the million dollar industry would be tarnish if he were to sold a fake product. What would his future chances of taking more all japan grand champions (besides the 7 he took already) be if breeders and judges know that he sold a fake product. Or maybe that is not as important as selling a few thousand dollars worth of a ceramic to western hobbyist :thinking: . Let me ask you this, most people in australia only manage to grow koi at most 1 inch a month, sydney people get a bit more growth since their water is softer.

Now how does an amateur like myself be able to grow koi that are old in the gene pool (unlike you lucky guys who just import koi) at rates of 4 to 6cm a month without a large pond, mud pond growth rates when no one else here could for so many many years.

It must say something about the RO and bakki shower system.

Ok I need to go check my english here, maybe there is a difference in aussie english and american english because you don't seem to read what i write. Which part of the spectacular (maybe even multi million dollar) bacteria house marketing campaign state that bakki showers will allow a koi keeper to get away with no water changes. You run a semi open system with settlement chambers that flush away fish waste and you still use more water than me, a system with no settlement chambers where every bit of waste is being filtered in some way or the other :hypocrit: to make sure your system runs at what your educated knowledge brings you to believe is perfect water that can't get more perfect. You haven placed one single bit of evidence of how you claim the marketers of bacteria house market bacteria house to the public.

Wow JR maybe the rest of the agents of momotaro should fly over to where you live and treat you to a banquet for testing our media. After you test it maybe we should just all market it as the bacteria hosue that JR tested, rather than after spending thousands of dollars on research by MTTK.

Though I have not got the report yet, I have used all my efforts that have explained principles of FIR, yet you knock them and ask for a report directly related to koi filtering, because that would show the science ( which i am gonna keep my word by the way), did it not occur to you what a true scientist is, a scientist is a person that understands principles and goes and applies it to other things in an attempt to discover something new. Does it make you feel jealous that maeda has been in the industry for ten years and that you have probably kept koi for longer than he has but yet he has used his imagination and the understanding of a certain science and apply it to keeping koi. So he comes up with a media through the help of MTTK research on all the different medias in a short period of time whilst you have been doing the same thing with TTs for more than 20 years but have not done anything else special except maybe moving your filters to your basement and heating it. Know what is easier to do for a hobbyist stack on a shower next to the pond or build his filter in a basement and heat his filter. Sorry you got to build a basement first if you don't have one then do what you have been doing for the past 20 years. So imagine if you ever became a breeder as big as momotaro will you be building basements for your trickle filters for your ponds in a greenhouse alongside with your submerge filters. I think you can start to see who is more practical and who has put their money where their mouth is in terms of application of their ideas of what keeping perfect water for carp would be.

JR I will not apologise for how I was raised to be polite even when aggravated thus my passive aggressive attitude when posting in comparision to the way you bully, attack and try to down wit when you post. As to whether I can be read like a koi magazine at least the way I post has to be read you on the other hand are like a movie, there for you to see with little imagination. Hope you are happy with the no more passive aggressive manner.

So you are going to test, with your existing system except replacing the media, then you are just gonna monitor ORP, pH, maybe even bacterial count. You are gonna keep the same water changes good to hear, I hear you do a 27% water change every week. I have to admit JR my biochemistry in terms of aquaculture is no where as vast as yours, your ability to quote books always seems to amaze me especially when you try to prove others wrong, classic eg roark and roddys experiments you tear it to shreds at every chance with your science qutoes from different literature sources. Yet you can't with bakki showers and FIR. Please enlighten me on how you are going to test the level of organics, your DOCs, TOCs and POCs so that I can learn. Since you say your water is already at saturation level ORP readings are irrelevant since you say you can throw cow pie in water and make the ORP look good, ie you could throw cow pie in your water and the ORP would still be sky high. Because the organic build up with bacteria house is your main concern that you preach and shout on every forum, but wait you have a settlement chamber that is going to flush your waste daily so how are we gonna measure the organic level? I guess that is even better for me since there definitely won't be any organic mulm build up or biofouling but it also means you are not proving anything after bashing the product for so long.

TEWA

tewa
07-27-2005, 04:34 AM
I may have to take the ceramic radiation a little more seriously TEWA after reading this recommendation! We old guys have lots of problems with our prostates!


Swelling of the Prostate Gland in Men

It is common for men to suffer from swollen Prostate Gland, especially men in their forties. It has become an inconvenience to them and common symptoms include weakness and difficulty in the excretion of urine, nutria and in serious cases, inability to urinate. At the same time, it may lead to a decline in sexual functions.

Those who suffer from the swelling of the Prostate Gland normally also suffer from Prostatitis or even cancer of the Prostate Gland and is one of the common killer of men.

The prostate gland is the organ responsible for the production of male hormones and sperm and is very important to men.

The reason for occurrence of disorders of the Prostate Gland is normally related to excessive sexual activity and hygienic reasons. During sexual intercourse, the Prostate Gland expands due to an increase in the supply of blood before ejaculation can occur. If the blood supply to the Prostate Gland is always high, it will lead to clotting of the in the blood vessels that supply blood to the Prostate Gland thus causing it to swell permanently. When the swollen Prostate Gland presses against the urethra, various symptoms of difficulty in urination will occur. Unclean sex life will cause inflammation of the Prostate Gland which will result in swelling of the Prostate Gland.

Therapy using medicine and surgery will of course be very effective. However, such methods of treatment will harm the Prostate Gland itself and this will cause problem to men.

The fibers in FIR ( Far infared ) underwear are embedded with bio-ceramic materials. It is able to emit FIR which directly penetrates the body through the skin. Under the influence of FIR, blood circulation to the lower part of the body will be improved. Prostate Glands which are swollen and filled with blood clots will be normalized again and blood circulation to such areas will be improved, thus restoring their flexibility and their natural functions. As such, the swelling will be reduced gradually until it normalize, improving health conditions and reducing suffering. At the same time, it also revives and elevates the sexual function of men. In this respect, FIR underwear is unique for those suffering from ailments of the Prostate Gland and is also the best way of maintaining health. There is no need for injections or medicines. It treats and relieves suffering in daily life.

If is for the prevention of ailments of the Prostate Gland, then FIR underwear should be used a very early stage. It is capable of maintaining the normal functioning of the Prostate Gland and prevents ailments.

CONCLUSION:

There are various types of FIR health care products. As stated above, there are many uses in wearing FIR .Actually, with the different products and applications, they offer many other health keeping effects.

We suffer from various types of ailments. No matter what the ailments are, they are directly connected with internal disorders of our body. Blood circulation, especially the condition of the micro-circulatory system directly affects the health condition of our bodies. This is in line with the traditional Chinese medical principle that "If it is unblocked, then it is not painful; and if it is painful, then it must be blocked".

If we can fully understand the properties and applications of FIR and fully utilize the FIR health keeping products it will definitely bring about better health to more people.

Note:

The Utilization of BIO-Ceramics which are capable of emitting FIR has been the subject of research of medical personnel and scientists from China, Japan and Korea who have been continuously researching into various fields of application of such material for the sake of human health.

As a leader in the introduction of FIR health products, the essential knowledge of various countries and in accordance with the weather, geographical conditions and culture of this region has introduced FIR health products into our daily lives. It has brought about a sharing of knowledge without considerations of national boundaries with only one common objective; to bring about a better and healthier lifestyle for mankind through the usage of FIR products as an alternative medicine.

We hope that our health and wellness products may be able to help you to rectify certain health problems you may have or to enable you to enhance your health for the future. Feel free to call us toll-free if we can be of assistance at 1---

Now I'm not sure if I should spend my money on the biomedia or the underwear? What's a guy to do? ;) JR

JR

My suggestion, take out the jap mat in your last chamber, fill it with bacteria hosue and leave enough space to sit in, add a heater and 2 hiblow 120's and you got a heated FIR jacuzzi, just like the natural springs in japan ;) plus you can filter the water at the same time :D:

You should check this link as well

http://www.chimachine4u.com/fir.html#can

http://www.physiotherm.net/saunas/43/infraredSaunaResearch.html#1

would really help give your little prostate buddy a break :cool:

tewa

tewa
07-27-2005, 04:38 AM
Trickles of well water 1/2" across into 3500 gallon tanks on both systems once they cycled. This was and is added at the top of the showers.

When in the first month of cycling process and I had to lock up the nitrogenous wastes I changed 350 gallons in both tanks every day. I topped up with fresh water and the appropriate amounts of sodium thiosulfate and salt to protect the 26 big adult koi in each tank from ammonia and nitrite. The ammonia levels went as high as 4 PPM during the second week of the cycle. After the filters cycled at about 4 weeks I had a big suspended algae bloom and DOC, looked like someone had poured in soap. Thats when I started the semi open system, when I didn't have to maIntain an ammonia binder and salt concentration any longer. After a couple of more months the water went clear and has stayed gin clear. But turn that water off and in a few days----stinko.


So SMG what amount of water were you flowing in when it was semi open after the filter has cycled. How many kilos of fish did you have in the pond or even an idea of how many koi of what length. How much did you feed a day.

Sorry to ask some old questions, how much media did you have. i already know that you only turnover once an hour and i tried to dig up koi-bito and koivet. you had 10X 27 to 29 inch koi in there. i also read later on that you had 25 koi of big and small and that later you added both tanks that had 25 koi each to the BH tank which was 50 koi in 3700 gallons. when did you increase the number of the bh tank from 10 large koi to 25 small and large koi?

tewa

tewa
07-27-2005, 06:27 AM
JR

Just another question, you are very concern with bakki showers and bacteria house having built up organics over time when run from bottom drain. So what you are saying is basically a shower with any media that is run from bottom drain or straight from a pump over the shower without settlement will be doing the same thing, retaining DOCs until it no longer can and in the case of high flow rates these will pass back down into the system and most likely hang at the surface. My question is I have seen a few posters, i think gene is one of then that have posted pumping straight to lava rock shower, SMG is another one that comes to mind, why is it you did not take a **** out of lava rock users but BH users since they are both the same method that your querying. wouldn lava rock be showing more signs of DOC since its not as porous and wouldn retain as much DOC. Yet you never mention your concern publicly when SMG did her experiments. I can't seem to find a reason for you not to take a shot at lava rock if you say you are unbias and have nothing against BH.

Another question is it fair to say a pond that has high in DOC is an unhealthy environment for the koi and if this is so the koi's growth would be hindered and physical appearance of the skin would also not be at its best ie white maybe slightly yellow, hi is not as red? If bakki shower ponds were to have a tendency of retaining DOCs besides normal not excessive water changes how does every bakki shower user see increased in growth rate and better appearance in their koi. Surely if DOC levels are high, despite high oxygen levels a kois appetite would be low along with other symptoms I have mentioned?

tewa

JPR
07-27-2005, 07:34 AM
TEWA! You have been a busy boy while I slept! I loovvveee when I really ‘get’ to a guy! You must have typed all night! And I’d need all day to answer all these questions! LOLs
So much material here, where to begin??

OK, I’ve got it----- Tewa, fish grow based on season, hormonal cycle, protein intake and regulation, water temperature and ENVIRONMENT. If one of these things is missing, growth rate slows. If one of these things is IMPROVED, a growth spurt can occur. At the heart of the environmental parameters for growth is oxygen level. Note that this is a positive factor. The other things we look to manage in a koi’s environment are all negative factors. Think about that for a while and then consider why certain results occur in ponds with TT or wet/dry filtration.

And before any of these dynamics I just described occurs, you need jumbo genetic potential. Do you for instance, believe that Aussie koi will grow to 90 cm if you use FIR ceramic media? If the magic rays increase circulation and encourage growth then surely any koi will grow at remarkable rates– right? My question to you is how large is your largest fish and how old is it?

Submitted with the patients of a saint, JR

PS, some ‘eye candy’ for you to enjoy.

Hanyakoi
07-27-2005, 09:09 AM
OK, I’ve got it----- Tewa, fish grow based on season, hormonal cycle, protein intake and regulation, water temperature and ENVIRONMENT. If one of these things is missing, growth rate slows. If one of these things is IMPROVED, a growth spurt can occur. At the heart of the environmental parameters for growth is oxygen level. Note that this is a positive factor. The other things we look to manage in a koi’s environment are all negative factors. Think about that for a while and then consider why certain results occur in ponds with TT or wet/dry filtration.


Gramp JR, I was doing all the above correct. Till I added the 1st 50kg of BH in my 1st TT and 1 koi grew by 9cm within a month (growth spurt)! Others grew above 3cm within the month whereas before they just have normal 1cm-2cm growth.


And before any of these dynamics I just described occurs, you need jumbo genetic potential. Do you for instance, believe that Aussie koi will grow to 90 cm if you use FIR ceramic media? If the magic rays increase circulation and encourage growth then surely any koi will grow at remarkable rates– right? My question to you is how large is your largest fish and how old is it?


One of my momotaro sanke just touch 70cm within 2.5 years.

Submitted with the patients of a saint, JR

PS, some ‘eye candy’ for you to enjoy.

BTW JR, how big is that 'candy boy' and how old is he?

tewa
07-27-2005, 10:42 AM
JR

didn take that long, honest. When I go to sleep you get busy. Such is tehe time difference of this world.

I don't doubt that jumbo genetics are needed, I think you are running ahead of yourself JR.

You and I both know that thirty years ago even in japan there was no 5 year old 90cm koi (which there are many from momotaro).

Our genetics here are not at that level at most you can say that they are of the level of koi in japan thirty years ago. Our koi keeping skills is even more primitive, where do I begin we don't have soft water to start with something quite important which you will admit.

I am not that proud to say that koi grown in bacteria house with our present genes will grow to 90cm. there are no gosanke past 75cm from what I know and that it isn't even the proper way of measuring koi, its just the longest length from head to tail when the koi is free standing/swimming (being stationary yu know what i mean)

the koi will grow fast because of the optimum condition but this will slow down according to the kois genes. the use of bacteria house in australia will allow us to grow koi faster, thus allowing us to breed the next generation with parents that have grown faster and eventually longer and so on. Thus using a good system will help our overall level in the future generations of koi and maybe one day we will have koi that are 90cm.

Even if FIR increases metabolism, circulation and waste removal the koi will only grow as big as its genes allow, you know that more than anyone else, not all matsunosuke sanke will grow large! Please stop trying to mock me. They will grow faster which is why i am able to grow koi at 4 to 6cm.

Well JR i have only kept koi since 2003 and my pond was of 30ton was only complete last september 2004, so I have only had one season of keeping koi properly. Sorry to dissapoint you. the fastest growth I have had is about 28cm in 6 months, from 13cm to 41cm. I have several that grew close to that rate majority grew between 3.5 to 5cm a month. largest koi grew from 35 to 53cm currently. There is nothing to compare between my koi and yours but that is not a fault of my keeping skills or the system that they are kept in just pure genetics.

Can I dare ask what growth rates you get out of your system with your imported koi.

tewa

Ryan S.
07-27-2005, 11:38 AM
TEWA,

You come off in your postings as "defensive". TT/Shower filters have given many of us excellent results for a number of years. I have no doubt they are functioning well for you. Everytime someone installs a TT/Shower setup using any type of media they are usually impressed with the results. The issue is that BH media does not seem to function any better than other medias, or at least it hasn't so far for anyone that has made an attempt to test them in a fair manner. You can buy lava rock by the truckload in the US for what a handfull or so of BH sells for, so without any proof it would hard to justify the cost. The growth rates you posted look typical what one would expect. I'm running a shower with Bioballs and Lava Rock btw.

Ryan S.

schildkoi
07-27-2005, 11:42 AM
Hanyakoi,
Me's thinks yous should check your glasses! My eyes say Candy Girl and She instead of boy and he.

Tewa and any other BH fan that thinks BH is the miricle media,
Please post growth rates and judging results on Koi r4aised in this system. I'll be more than happy to compare similar results in non BH style systems.

Still not knocking "shower" filtration...just some of the still unsubstantiated "cliams" being made (edit): in regards to BH ,media.

Steve

Gene
07-27-2005, 12:14 PM
tewa, what is your end purpose with all these post? You don't have a market with most of the members of this forum. :confused:

I've posted that I ran a 500 gallon holding tank with a 1200 gallon pump using lava rock in a shower tower for 7 years with no pre-filtration. I experienced excellent water quality, fish health, growth, absolutely no health issues and there was no debris to mention collecting in the tank. My personal opinion, never before published BTW, is that the high flow rate increased the oxygen so much that the debris was actually oxidized. What sediment there was in the tank was a fine brown dust like substance similar to what you get from a Potassium Permanganate treatment.


ryan

please tell me of someone that has actually done it fair, for long enough to see the growth of 2 batches of koi for say 2 years.

I don't consider those rates typical in australia they are very rare. 4.5cm a month is pretty close to japanese mud pond rates.

you maybe lucky to have koi that are imported which have genes that have been refgined by the japanese breeders that you guys take for granted. I know nothing of your system, water parameters or climate and am not going to assume anything you can share with us your setup and water and tell us of your growth rates. But you can definitely ask any aussie hobbyist whether they see these growth rates.

tewa

schildkoi
07-27-2005, 12:31 PM
You can stop at attempting to "spin" things to your way of tainted thinking. Nothing makes me mader than someone tainting data and attempting to walk both sides of the fence.

You say above:


I don't consider those rates typical in australia they are very rare. 4.5cm a month is pretty close to japanese mud pond rates.

you maybe lucky to have koi that are imported which have genes that have been refgined by the japanese breeders that you guys take for granted. I know nothing of your system, water parameters or climate and am not going to assume anything you can share with us your setup and water and tell us of your growth rates. But you can definitely ask any aussie hobbyist whether they see these growth rates.

First you quote questionable Japanese growth rates and then say you don't have the genetics as compared tos in the US? Apples and oranges. You want to make comparisons, fine but use hard FACTS or don't even attempt it.

I am more than willing to use hard FACTS and data in comparison to Japanese mud pond growth rates in a non Bakki House/media system. As good or better as a matter of fact. I've posted them before. As JR has attempted (apparently in vain for you) its more than just one aspect of Koi keeping to achieve growth, let alone the other results demanded to achieve champion status Koi.

For the record, shower filters have been around for just about ever. They are nothing more than man's attempting at creating natures own filtration system (raging rapids/waterfall) in a compact way. The media used only defines the efficiency of the system...short term and long term. Porus media such as lava rock works great...to start with and becomes less effective over time due to the pores clogging and creating anerobic conditions at which time its peaked and should be replaced. I suspect BH media has these same properties. Bakki showers have been marketed using Meada as an example of effectivness. Not exactly "truth in advertising"! How many people are going to have flow through systems with large volumes of water such as what he utilizes? What percentage of his success is attributable to the flow through and not the Bakki showers or even the media? How much success could there have been with other media? How effective is his principle when large volumes of water are not flowed through? what percentage or improved results is attanable just adding a shower to an exsisting system? How does the existing system that the Shower is added to compliment the new system?

There are almost an unlimited number of questions unanswered and without such answers people such as some here cannot make legitimate claims that there results are due to BHM. Simply improving one's filtration could have had the same results....and is typically the case.

For the record, Nope, I'd never use lava rock nor BHM. I don't like the part about collecting soilds nore the pores filling with crude and going anerobic.....at least until I would have the ability to do massive flow through to keeps these other factors in check (diluted) like Meada does while maintaining the very low stocking density that he does as well. After all, if you are going to imitate a system, you should attempt to imitate all factors of that system.

Steve

Gene
07-27-2005, 01:28 PM
tewa,

I understand how you feel about the Bakki Showers with Bacteria House media. It's very frustrating when you can't convince others of something you yourself are absolutely sure is everything you say it is and it's the only one that can do the job. I've been in the same situation many times.

About 40 years ago I was a salesman for a product that I was sure was the best of its kind on the market. I had been through an extensive training course on how to present the product to the consumer. They showed me how to demonstrate a test to compare it to the major competitor's product and I would actually go out and knock on people’s door to demonstrate the product.

After about six months of attaining record sales on this product I ran across a customer that actually had one of the major competitor’s products and he asked me to perform the same test on it. I eagerly complied since I knew it wouldn't stack up and I'd have another sale.

To my horror the other product performed exactly the same as mine. I was devastated. It put me in a slump for days and I wasn't able to sell my product any more since I no longer believed in it.

I sure do hope I'm around in another 25 years to see how you feel about the Bacteria House media then.

Being the optimist that I am, I've had the same experience with other products periodically over the past 40 years, but I'm starting to look at things a lot harder now before I jump on the band wagon.

Don't ever loose you enthusiasm. It makes life very exciting.

charlieliu
07-27-2005, 05:29 PM
Mike Snaden of Yumekoi and his customer have use Bakki shower with BHM several years now, and they have achieved fantastic results. Mike's ponds have a very low flow through rate(due to cost of water), and high stocking rate. The article in Koi-Bito tittled "80cm Quest" and his website provide a lot of good information on BHM.

JPR
07-27-2005, 07:58 PM
hey Valarc, I think I may have 'the winner' here! Got this one from the Japanese Researcher who is 'credited for--- wait for it---- THE founder of many of the elements on the periodic table!!! ROFLMAO!

Anyway this Japanese brain trust says--

this miraculous water conditioner that is created by far-infrared radiation emanating from tiny ceramic balls in a "Super Energy Activator". Among other things, this magical elixir is supposed to
reduce acne and wrinkles, "promote rapid weight loss by not allowing fat cells to build up", "allow one to become intoxicated faster when taking in alcoholic beverages and become sober quicker" , "cleans insides of household pipes and prevents rusting", improves the strength and crack-resistance of concrete, "make crops grow bigger, stronger, and faster", keep fish alive in sealed aquaria and allow salt-water and fresh-water fish to "live happily together in the same tank".

All before breakfast I would assume? ;) JR

tewa
07-27-2005, 11:43 PM
Hi Gene

I wasnt trying to take a stab at you and your lava rock experiment in a shower form. I was highlighting that JR only chooses to ridicule BH and not lava rock which is both using the same method and would give to him give a concern for DOC in the long run.

I know you ran lava rock for seven years. I am just saying who has actually given BH a fair go against lava rock, ran at the way it was suppose to with the recommended stocking rate to amount of media, and just water changes dependent on load for both tanks and than measured the growth rates of both tanks from the same genetic line.

hope you understand now, from your post you seem like one of the few people that are sitting on the fence reading this thread that is open to hearing something new and trying to understand without too much hostility or bias, its true I stand to gain naught from arguing with JR here at koiphen and valar at koichat. Those that do gain are the hobbyist and mike and carl but I love the product and I hope that others will enjoy the same benefits I do.

I have to admit yes on momotaro's add on koi bito i see the word miraculous which is JR ammunition for this debate, but what they are really trying to say that it is very different to any other filtration, and I am sure all of you would know when speaking to a japanese their command of english used in everyday language and how its read is not the best even for the fluent speaking japanese. Over here we read the same sentence in multiple ways and how we interpret it.

My whole point of bakki showers is this, bakki showers when used correctly ie in terms of flow rate, stocking rate and with normal water changes (this is all dependent on stocking level) will give the end user very very little maintenance and enjoy better growth and more activity.

If JR and those out there don't believe it then so be it, if they think lava rock is just as good fine, if they can't afford it that is also fine, you live within your means. But if you are gonna bag it like the way Jr does even after listening to reasons and seeing observations then thats what I can't stand. even though I have nothing to gain arguing with JR.

As to SMG trial I am not saying she doesn't know how to test thigngs but to me her test on bakki media was not fair. I have asked her repeatedly only details of her experiment which I couldn dig up.

Firstly she kept 10 27 to 29 inch in a 13000L tank (extremely high) but the same number was in both tanks so thats fine. Second she didn't even turn it over 1.5 times, let alone two or three times which is recommended. If you were gonna test something why not do it how it was recommended then evaluate the results. She then later on added even more koi to both tanks, I ask when? Doesn anyone think that is a bit excessive the stocking rate? Ok I know the amount of waste is dependent on the food so I ask how much food she feeds. She then says that she went semi open, I ask how much water a day does she flow in? I still have no answer. when she stops the water in a couple of days it smells bad, my curiosity would it still smell bad if turnover was at 1.5 times an hour less likely. So now she is keeping 25 koi big and small in such a small pond I don't think most normal people would and that too me is as high as momotaro stocking rate or higher, isn't it than logical she needed to flow in that much water. And the smell happened to both tanks so its got nothing to do with the media but the fact that the stocking was too much for the amount of media at that turnover rate. She then added the koi from the lava rock to the BH tank so fifty koi in 13000L, she said they were healthy and fine, what would have happened had the same load been put onto the lava rock pond. That part didn take place, I feel fairly confident that the lava rock would not be able to handle that load especially in along run since it wears out and they will less pores, it may even come to a stage in the future where the filter cannot cope and that would be dangerous for the fish, but yet she says BH and lava rock are the same, I don't think that is fair. But she has to gain credit for doing all that work when others just sat back and watched. And at that time I didn see JR mention anything about DOCs build up in both ponds since its the same method.

tewa

tewa
07-28-2005, 12:53 AM
JR

AREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU READYYYYYYYYY

Int J Biometeorol. 1989 Oct;33(3):145-50. Related Articles, Links


Biological activities caused by far-infrared radiation.

Inoue S, Kabaya M.

Contrary to previous presumption, accumulated evidence indicates that far-infrared rays are biologically active. A small ceramic disk that emits far-infrared rays (4-16 microns) has commonly been applied to a local spot or a whole part of the body for exposure. Pioneering attempts to experimentally analyze an effect of acute and chronic radiation of far-infrared rays on living organisms have detected a growth-promoting effect in growing rats, a sleep-modulatory effect in freely behaving rats and an insomiac patient, and a blood circulation-enhancing effect in human skin. Questionnaires to 542 users of far-infrared radiator disks embedded in bedclothes revealed that the majority of the users subjectively evaluated an improvement of their health. These effects on living organisms appear to be non-specifically triggered by an exposure to far-infrared rays, which eventually induce an increase in temperature of the body tissues or, more basically, an elevated motility of body fluids due to decrease in size of water clusters.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

MeSH Terms:
Animals
Body Temperature/radiation effects
Growth/radiation effects
Humans
Infrared Rays*
Regional Blood Flow/radiation effects
Skin/blood supply
Sleep/radiation effects

PMID: 2689357 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

You can buy the full article.

Here is something which i know you will say is full of **** but i will post it for you there is a movie you must watch, a salt water and freshwater fish living together.

http://www.piwater.org/

There are links to FIR reducing clusters as well.

These are just appetisers I got better coming. So what now.

tewa

JPR
07-28-2005, 01:16 AM
You're kidding me right? You're promoting the idea that hydrogen and oxygen clusters can reverse aging and allow freshwater fish to live with saltwater fish? Does this Dr who wrote this paper know anything about fish physiology? I mean the osmoregulation of salts in hypotonic and hypertonic species?! This is exactly the kind of 'nut job' stuff that my guy is talking about!!! Put another way, ( and please refer to #4 and #7 on my list of pseudoscience) if this guy is out to lunch on piwater and osmoregulation in different fish, how much on the mark could he be about any other scientific principles? Good grief!
And the first guy is in that world of quirky Asian researchers that entire pages are written about. Please scan the net for piwater reviews- there are several. They all call it a scam, not just my guy. JR

JPR
07-28-2005, 01:24 AM
here is one scientist's review of 'piwater'

Another widely-promoted "alternative" water scheme feeds us this hokum:

During research on plant growth cycles, Japanese scientists discovered a form of water [that contains] specially-charged iron particles. The scientists referred to it as "living water" from the effects they perceived it had on plants and other growing things. [This] water was first detected more than 30 years ago.

{it- piwater] is iron base compound derived from bivalent and trivalent ferrates [and] is said as "living body water" ; "living body water" (i.e. water that constitutes a living body) is the water which can be found inside all living bodies including humans, animals and plants. Any water taken into a living body must be converted into this "living body water". If ordinary water taken into, a great deal of energy is consumed to convert it into this living body water.

None of the sites I have looked at offers references to the work of these "scientists", nor do they offer any credible evidence to support the statements and claims made about pi-water, many of which verge on the mystical:

What's this miracle water good for? According to one distributor's Web page, its benefits include: Restoring environmental conditions, Preventing bacteria proliferation, Suppressing harmful ions, Promoting growth, Rejuvenating life activities, Acquiring regeneration power, Enlarging adaptability, Ensuring normal growth.

The claim that marine- and fresh-water fish can live together in Pi-water might make the basis of a good Science Fair project.

Needless to say, these vague and non-verifiable claims, reminescent of 19-th century snake-oil promotions, are utter nonsense, but this has not stopped a California company from flogging these nostrums to the even larger pool of suckers in North America, and by the looks of the handsome office building pictured on their Web page, they are doing a very good job of it. Their product is apparently an "improved" version produced through the use of equally baseless "magnetic and far-infrared technology".

Valarc
07-28-2005, 01:26 AM
First off, you question how old JR's site is, while you yourself are quoting a paper from 1988!

The statement needed to disprove the "magic FIR" nonsense in fact lies within the article abstract you pasted.... I will quote it again here:

"triggered by an exposure to far-infrared rays, which eventually induce an increase in temperature of the body tissues"

Look at that again... an INCREASE IN TEMPERATURE. Well golly gee willikers, you mean to tell me changing body temperature has an effect on bilogical processes? Who'da thunk it? You could get the same effect by putting a warm rock on your skin. As far as the final little statement about affecting water clusters... the instrumentation didn't even EXIST in 1988 to make any conclusive statements about what is happening to water clusters. Old timer indeed, you're quoting ridiculously out-of-date materials.

ShiroMujiGirl
07-28-2005, 02:09 AM
So SMG what amount of water were you flowing in when it was semi open after the filter has cycled. How many kilos of fish did you have in the pond or even an idea of how many koi of what length. How much did you feed a day.

Sorry to ask some old questions, how much media did you have. i already know that you only turnover once an hour and i tried to dig up koi-bito and koivet. you had 10X 27 to 29 inch koi in there. i also read later on that you had 25 koi of big and small and that later you added both tanks that had 25 koi each to the BH tank which was 50 koi in 3700 gallons. when did you increase the number of the bh tank from 10 large koi to 25 small and large koi?

tewa

I ran the 27"-29" koi in both tanks for 6 months. I didn't weigh them, but it was equal numbers of males and females. Then another experiment was completed and I equally divided those same size koi into the BH against LR tanks with the others. Finally last winter I wondered what the method could handle so boldly put my entire collection except the show string into the BH tank. I fed and feed them according to the season and water temperature what they could eat in 5 minutes from once to three times a day. Both filters have 12 cubic feet of media, one cu. ft. in each of 12 milk crates stacked in three tray falls. Yes its a heavy stocking rate but this is a work test not dinking around. The lava clinkers showed no sign of breaking down at the end of the test.

Koi Story
07-28-2005, 02:35 AM
How much energy is there in visible light as compared to that in far infrared radiation? Far infrared radiation has a thousand fold longer wavelength than the visible electromagnetic radiation. Long wavelegth radiation has lower energy.
Any visible object is actually emmiting and absorbing a thousand times more radiation energy in the visible spectrum than FIR. Energy is the ability to perform work. Any work that a FIR can realize visible light can do it better.

ks

Koi Story
07-28-2005, 03:11 AM
For those not used to scientific hermeneutics here is a simple explanation.
Five-dimensional Trinification Improved
We present improved models of trinification in five dimensions. Unified symmetry is broken by a combination of orbifold projections and a boundary Higgs sector. The latter can be decoupled from the theory, realizing a Higgsless limit in which the scale of exotic massive gauge fields is set by the compactification radius. Electroweak Higgs doublets are identified with the fifth components of gauge fields and Yukawa interactions arise via Wilson loops. The result is a simple low-energy effective theory that is consistent with the constraints from proton decay and gauge unification.

We provide a comprehensive test of factorization in the heavy-heavy $B$ decays motivated by the recent experimental data from BELLE and BABAR collaborations. The penguin effects are not negligible in the B decays with two pseudoscalar mesons. The direct CP asymmetries are found to be a few percent. We give estimates on the weak annihilation contributions by analogy to the observed annihilation-dominated processes. The insensitivity of branching ratios indicates that the soft final state interactions are not dominant. The power law shows that the transverse perpendicular polarization fraction is small. The effects of the heavy quark symmetry breaking caused by the perturbative QCD and power corrections on the transverse polarization are also investigated.

ks

Roddy Conrad
07-28-2005, 06:19 AM
Tewa, here is the deal. JR has written on occasion how he loves a good word battle, and will take any side just to enjoy the battle. And he battles daily on message boards about issues that make no real difference to actual ponding success. The original Bakki shower, with the Bakki media, and the stainless steel towers, work well, no one argues that. What is argued is why they work, and whether they are worth what they cost when bought as that commercial filter. Many of us find similar constructions work as well, and many of us find lava rock just as good as the media sold as a Bakki shower. If the reason the BH media works well is Far Infrared Radiation to break up water clusters, then lava rock must do the same thing, and emit the Far Infrared Radiation as well.

Here is another idea. A Japanese researcher has documented water responds to music and words, and has written a book documenting his interesting work. The book is "Hidden Messages in Water" by Masuru Emoto, published by Beyond Words Publishing, I read it cover to cover. If Masuru tapes "nice" words to a glass of water, the water forms lovely crystals which he photographs. If he tapes "nasty" words to a glass of water, the water forms obscene looking crystals. If he plays classical music to the water, it forms lovely crystals. If he plays some forms of music like punk rock to the water, it forms really obscene looking crystals. Two typical examples are given in the middle of the page at the links:

http://www.cygnus-books.co.uk/features/hidden-messages-water-masaru-emoto.htm

http://www.whatthebleep.com/crystals/


So water responds to words, music, environment, intentions. So maybe if a ponder thinks the pond water is going to be good, and talks to it lovingly, perhaps it is better quality for the fish, following this interesting Japanese research on how water crystals form differently in different environments.

Well, let's see whether this loving post gets a loving response, or whether some of the humans out there, who are comprised of ~70% water, are so messed up with their bad thought processes that they attack the idea that the environmental factors (attitudes, music, words) have no effect on water quality.

And just maybe the water quality in my ponds is a lot better because I think it should be better, and say nice words to the fish and the ponds.

kingkong
07-28-2005, 07:45 AM
Come on Tewa, scientific Hermeneutics. We had that in the 9th grade. You know the Greek God Hermes preached understanding and communication. So hermeneutics is interpretation. Higgs mechanism deals with energy fields and particle physics. Energy fields? Isn't all energy carried by particles? Energy can be carried by waves, can be stored in chemical bonds and coils, and can be in the form of matter. Higgs particles are a little different, they exist in a vacuum . Remember it takes energy to remove the particles to make a vacuum . This dark energy concept is subject to interpretation. With out Higgs Field, electrons would fly at the speed of light, and atoms would instantly disintegrate it is suggested. Thanks for the flash back Koi Story! :)

JPR
07-28-2005, 08:54 AM
OK, so usually the best remedy for ignorance is education! I learned early, for instance, that my uncle Joe was not really removing his thumb but rather he was doing a 'magic' trick for me! ;)
In the spirit of the myth busters, take a look at an actual scientific presentation at this sight
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/

Once this information is digested, go back and read the claims made on some of your sights Tewa. I think it will do a world of good.
JR

tewa
07-28-2005, 09:03 AM
Hi Roddy

Thank you i started to get that and thus have taken a lighter approach to this thread. Just the same manner JR treated me but i get ridiculed for it :cry:

I know JR is enjoying it very much. He feeds of the negative emotional energy of the people he posts against and sooner or later these people get tired mentally as he continues the challenge. I definitely don't want to go down that path since now I have a nice group that either side with JR or take a personal stab at me :( , I am going to keep the race going :) :yes: . What say you grampy JR, bored yet? tired yet? :p:

A lot of the main point of this thread has been lost roddy and I thank you for bringing it back into line. It has evolved from being just JR's concern with DOCs, to him doing a test, to him saying BH marketers claim its a miracle filter with no water needed, to BH doesn't emit FIR

Along the lines of these many posts JR (or maybe it was in NI) has stated that Bakki shower is a great filter but he worries about the no water thing, which i kept reminding him that no one ever says no water is needed. Even Valr has agreed on koichat that its a great media but he thinks that the FIR are bull **** and that either me and maeda are misinformed about how we think FIR works or we are deceiving the public with false marketing but now i dunno since he got quite worked up and attacked me :mad: brutally. JR just thinks we are deceiving with false marketing

Some have said that more water is needed, golden rule is 10%. I refute that and say its common sense that it depends on your stocking rate and feed. Which is where I disagree with SMGs test, before anything i will say she did great work and went through the effort of trying it unlike most of the prople out there that bag it so good on her.

Roddy i know your a big fan of lava rock and so i will not try to argue if you think that it was as good as bacteria house. You are prepared to change and clean filters every two years so good for you. In fact i would say that lava rock would have been my choice if I didn have the option of picking BH due to finance, and i would definitely use it as a shower.

As for why JR's concern with DOC is just for bacteria house and not for lava rock when used in the same manner, I still don have an answer :no: . As to how he is going to do a fair test without doing it the recommended way i still don't have an answer a long with the actual measuring of organics when he tests it in his trickle tower, which i explain earlier :no: . Again no answer. Which really defeated the purpose of this whole debate that brought every other sceptic out :mad: . But I guess your judgemnet of JR is correct he did for the heck of a word battle, I am sure you know him much better than i do roddy.

Roddy if lava rock emits FIR as well great, if you ever got a geology report on both please share. As to whether bacteria house is then better in terms of the fact it doesn wear out, would not clog as much or a hobbyist personal opinion that it would givehim better growth rate over lava rock, I leave for that hobbyist to decide himself whether its a justified expense.

As to the loving words affecting water crystal that is very interesting and thanks for sharing, I haven made up my mind on it, and i don't think i can since i never read it. Let us know what your outcomes with it are ;)

tewa

tewa
07-28-2005, 09:09 AM
Here is a stab at what I have found, before you go off let me say i dont understand all of it I don't know the measurements they use, so take it easy on your rebut.

I don't claim to understand all said but I am going to give it a try to try and see whether I can find some principles. Since FIR is an electromagnetic radiation it has electric and magentic properties (I might not be wording it correctly so don't bite but i am sure you can get what i am trying to say). Ok this isnt a report directly saying ceramics emitting FIR causes h-bonds to bend or break thereby reducing the size of water cluster, so take it easy and I will explain what i got from reading this remember i don't understand all of it.

Water, being dipolar, can be partly aligned by an electric field and this may be easily shown by the movement of a stream of water by an electrostatic source <163>. Very high field strengths (5 x 109 V m-1) are required to reorient water in ice such that freezing is inhibited <251>. Even partial alignment of the water molecules with the electric field will cause pre-existing hydrogen bonding to become bent or broken. The balance between hydrogen bonding and van der Waals attractions is thus biased towards van der Waals attractions giving rise to less cyclic hydrogen bonded clustering.

Water is diamagnetic and may be levitated in very high magnetic fields (10 T, cf. Earth's magnetic field 30 mT) <170>. Lower magnetic fields (0.2 T) have been shown, in simulations, to increase the number of monomer water molecules <192> but, rather surprisingly, they increase the tetrahedrality at the same time.

These effects are consistent with the magnetic fields weakening the van der Waals bonding between the water moleculesa and the water molecules being more tightly bound, due to the magnetic field reducing the thermal motion of the inherent charges by generating dampening forces <703>. Due to the fine balance between the conflicting hydrogen bonding and non-bonded interactions in water clusters, any such weakening of the van der Waals attraction leads to a further strengthening of the hydrogen bonding and greater cyclic hydrogen bonded clustering. This effect of the magnetic field on the hydrogen bonding has been further supported by the rise in the melting point of H2O (5.6 mK at 6 T) and D2O (21.8 mK at 6 T) <703> indicating greater ordering (lower entropy) in the liquid water within a magnetic field.

Thus it appears that electric and magnetic fields have opposite effects on water clustering. Static magnetic effects have been shown to cause an increase in the ordered structure of water formed around hydrophobic molecules and colloids <106>, as shown by the increase in fluorescence of dissolved probes <108>. This reinforces the view that it is the movement through a magnetic field, and it associated electromagnetic effect, that is important for disrupting the hydrogen bonding. Such fields can also increase the evaporation rate of water and the dissolution rate of oxygen but cannot, despite claims by certain expensive water preparations, increase the amount of oxygen dissolved in water above its established, and rather low, equilibrium concentration <176>. Magnetic fields can also increase proton spin relaxation <623>, which may speed up some reactions dependent on proton transfer.

Belief in whether or not magnetic or electromagnetic fields can have any more permanent effect on water, and solutions, depends on the presence of a working hypothesis for their mode of action (see also homeopathy). Such hypotheses are emerging. On a cautionary note however, many studies either do not treat results with proper statistical rigor or do not use relevant 'untreated' material for comparison.

Unstructured water with fewer hydrogen bonds is a more reactive environment <286>, as exemplified by the enhanced reactivity of supercritical water.b An open, more hydrogen-bonded network structure slows reactions due to its increased viscosity, reduced diffusivities and the less active participation of water molecules. Any factors that reduce water-water hydrogen bonding and hydrogen bond strength, such as electric fields, should encourage reactivity. Water clusters (even with random arrangements) have equal hydrogen bonding in all directions. As such, electric or electromagnetic fields that attempt to reorient the water molecules should necessitate the breakage of some hydrogen bonds; e.g. electric fields have been reported to halve the mean water cluster size as measured by 17O-NMR <111> (see also 'declustered' water). Electromagnetic radiation (e.g. microwave) has been shown to exert its effect primarily through the electrical rather than magnetic effect <455>. The increased hydration ability of water in electromagnetic fields has been demonstrated by the dissociation of an enzyme dimer (electric eel acetylcholinesterase), leading to gel formation, due to the microwave radiation from a mobile phone <714>. The resultant aqueous restructuring caused by such processes may be kinetically stable.

163. S. T. Bramwell, Ferroelectric ice, Nature 397 (1999) 212-213.
251. S. V. Schevkunov and A. Vegiri, Electric field induced transitions in water clusters, J. Mol. Struct. (Theochem) 593 (2002) 19-32.
192. K. X. Zhou, G. W. Lu, Q. C. Zhou, J. H. Song, S. T. Jiang and H. R. Xia, Monte Carlo simulation of liquid water in a magnetic field, J. App. Phys. 88 (2000) 1802-1805.
703. H. Inaba, T. Saitou, K. Tozaki, and H. Hayashi, Effect of the magnetic field on the melting transition of H2O and D2O measured by a high resolution and supersensitive differential scanning calorimeter , J. Appl. Phys. 96 (2004) 6127-6132
106. S. Ozeki, C. Wakai and S. Ono, Is a magnetic effect on water-adsorption possible, J. Phys. Chem. 95 (1991) 10557-10559.
108. K. Higashitani, J. Oshitani and N. Ohmura, Effects of magnetic field on water investigated with fluorescent probes, Colloids Surfaces 109 (1996) 167-173.
623. H. E. L. Madsen, Crystallization of calcium carbonate in magnetic field in ordinary and heavy water, J. Crystal Growth 267 (2004) 251-255.
455. N. J. English and J. M. D. MacElroy, Molecular dynamics simulations of microwave heating of water, J. Chem. Phys. 118 (2003) 1589-1592.


From this article my understanding (which may be wrong) is that electric fields can bend or break hydrogen bonds thus reducing water clusters.

low magnetic fields can create more water monomers (single water molecule?). They can cause my cyclic clusters I think this may lead to smaller clusters as their covalent bonds become stronger and there is less H bonding with other clusters, again could be wrong?

Electromagnetic radiation (FIR) exhibits more electric properties than magnetic more H bonds bent or broken. I know luke you and valr (who has started attacking me on koiphen, hope you have cooled down) will say but you need a certain strength electric and magnetic field, I will not dispute that and I will not claim to say i know the strength of the electric and magnetic field created by far infrared rays emitted form BH. I know valr tried to calculate the energy of 1 photon of far infrared ray at a certain wavelength and says that it is not strong enough to break a H-O bond. I just want to ask were you referring to the covalent bond which is far stonger or the vander waal bond which is far weaker. In either case valr maybe one photon is not enough but what if there are thousands than could it be possible that these H bonds maybe bent or broken. From momotaros graph BH emits quite a bit of radiation even when compared to a black body. Than could it be the reason why they are broken into small pieces is to allow the water to travel between each piece where some van der waal bonds are exposed to FIR photons from amny angles from the pieces that surround the water cluster. I know that clusters are not static and keep breaking and forming. Could the water being passed through the media at high flows affect the cluster size as the water molecules hit a large surface, this may not be too a huge degree but i wonder, maybe that is why momotaro found with the experiments they conducted with MTTK that the higher the flow rate the better.


this second article talks about the vibration of water molecules which can break weak H bonds.

The main stretching band in liquid water is shifted to a lower frequency (v3, 3490 cm-1 and v1, 3280 cm-1 <8>) and the bending frequency increased (v1, 1645 cm-1 <8>) by hydrogen bonding. Variations in the environment around each liquid water molecule gives rise to considerable line broadening with vibration shifts in a hydrogen-bond-donating water molecule being greater than in a hydrogen-bond accepting molecule but both acting in the same direction <679>, and accumulating with the number of hydrogen bonds. Stretching frequency increases about 360 (at 3.1 Å) -1000 (at 2.6 Å) cm-1Å-1 with increasing O····O distance and about 9 cm-1 degree-1 with increasing O-H····O bend <446>. The absorption intensity of these bands is v1;v2;v3 = 0.87;0.33;1.00 <8>. In ice, these bands are shifted further (v1, 3085 cm-1, v2, 1650 cm-1,v3, 3220 cm-1). In liquid water the molecular stretch vibrations shift to higher frequency, on raising the temperature (as hydrogen bonding weakens, the covalent O-H bonds strengthen causing them to vibrate at higher frequencies) whereas the intramolecular vibrations shift to lower frequencies and the molecular bend vibration peak both shifts to lower frequencies and becomes narrower <696>. This bending vibration almost vanishes on cooling <819> whereas raising the temperature lowers the intensity of the stretching bands. This divergent behavior of bending and stretching vibrations allows their contributions to combination bands to be discerned. Thus, combinations of stretching vibrations shift to higher frequency with temperature with this trend reduced when bending vibrations are also combined. As examples, the first overtone combination of symmetric and asymmetric stretching shows a shift from strongly hydrogen-bonded structures (6707 cm-1) to weakly hydrogen bonded structures (7082 cm-1) with increasing temperature <237>, and the combination band at about 5200 cm-1 shifts to slightly higher wavenumbers with reduced hydrogen bond strength <282>. The second overtone of the stretching band gives rise to a significant peak in the near-infrared spectrum (l 970 nm). Recent work shows that the intensity of all overtone bands tend to increase linearly with increasing temperature in the range 2°C - 85°C without isobestic points (in contrast to earlier reports <530>), so ruling out a simple two-phase model for water <526>. However IR evanescent wave spectroscopy does show isobestic points in the O-H stretch region <699>. These apparently confused conclusions may be more supportive of progressively changing two-phase models such as described here. Increasing the pressure on water decreases the O····O distances (graphed elsewhere) so increasing the covalent O-H distances and lowering their stretch frequency <804>. Raised pressure also causes a reduction in long, weak or broken bonds and an increase in bent and short, strong hydrogen bonds <804>.

In liquid water and ice the infrared and Raman spectra are far more complex than the vapor due to vibrational overtones and combinations with librations (restricted rotations; i.e. rocking motions) due to the hydrogen bonds (minor L1 band 395.5 cm-1; major L2 band 686.3 cm-1; both at 0°C, the absorbance of L1 increasing with increasing temperature whereas L2 absorbance decreases but broadens with reduced wavenumber with increasing temperature <177>), cluster vibrations such as translational vibrations involving combinations of hydrogen bond stretching and bending at around 200 cm-1 < 240> (S or connectivity band, 183.4 cm-1; at 0°C, the hydrogen bond stretch absorbance increasing with decreasing temperature <819>a; 229 cm-1 in ice Ih) and bending (B band ~40 - 60 cm-1; at 0°C, the absorbance increasing with temperature <608>) of the hydrogen bonds. Also in liquid water there is a small but significant combination band (IR and Raman) of the bending (v2) and libration modes at 2125 cm-1 (2270 cm-1 in ice Ih; the 'association band').b A contribution to the Raman scattering of water at 50 cm-1 has been attributed to the low-frequency vibrations of oxygen-oxygen bonds at the vertices of pentagonal dodecahedral structures <165>. Such low-frequency features (centered around 60 cm-1), however, are also observed in the spectra of dense non-associated liquids, such as the noble gasses, and may be attributed to non-bonded 'cage effects' where translations are frustrated <448>. Recently, use of an intense source of far infrared radiation has shown temperature dependent peaks at a number of wavelengths in the 40-90 cm-1 range <656>.

The spectra for isotopic variants of water (e.g. HDO, D2O and H218O) are all different; in particular the H-O and D-O stretching vibrations are not connected in HDO but the related vibrations in H2O and D2O involve both hydrogen atoms.

Assignment of the IR vibrational absorption spectrum of liquid water*
Wavelength cm-1 Assignment Wavelength** cm-1 Assignment
0.2 mm 50 intermolecular bend 1470 nm 6800 av1 + bv3; a+b=2
55 mm 183.4 intermolecular stretch 1200 nm 8330 av1 + v2 + bv3; a+b=2
25 mm 395.5 L1, librations 970 nm 10310 av1 + bv3; a+b=3
15 mm 686.3 L2, librations 836 nm 11960 av1 + v2 + bv3; a+b=3
6.08 mm 1645 v2, bend 739 nm 13530 av1 + bv3; a+b=4
4.65 mm 2150 v2 + L2 a 660 nm 15150 av1 + v2 + bv3; a+b=4
3.05 mm 3277 v1, symmetric stretch 606 nm 16500 av1 + bv3; a+b=5 <526>
2.87 mm 3490 v3, asymmetric stretch 514 nm 19460 av1 + bv3; a+b=6 <526>
1900 nm 5260 av1 + v2 + bv3; a+b=1 Note that a and b are integers, ³0
* Raman peaks are given in <805>. **Wavelength (nm) = 107/wavenumber(cm-1) (nm ~3.3 attosecond)

The near-infrared (NIR) bands (at about l 970-1940 nm) are suited to rapid non-destructive water determination <479>, all shifting a few nm to longer wavelength (lower frequency) with strengthening hydrogen bonding due to shifts from high density water (i.e. increasing CS) to low density water (i.e. increasing ES) <489>. A shoulder at about 3250 cm-1 on the side of the only strongly active Raman peak, and recently described in the IR spectrum at 3220 cm-1 <699>, (symmetric O-H stretch, v1) of liquid water has been assigned to the collective in-phase symmetric O-H vibrations of strongly tetrahedrally-bonded water patches. The ratio of this to the remaining peak at about 3400 cm-1 has been used to determine the fraction of such water but such comparisons, although commonly used, should be treated with caution, as their absorbances are unlikely to be identical and other possible vibrations, such as the first bend (v2) overtone, will interfere. This remaining peak has been analyzed in many ways (e.g. as zero, single, double and triple coordinated hydrogen-bonded water) but most convincingly in terms of three-coordinate (double acceptor single donor, 3400 cm-1; single acceptor double donor, 3535 cm-1) and two-coordinate (single acceptor single donor, 3630 cm-1) hydrogen-bonded water molecules <699>. There is clearly much structural information hidden in the vibrational spectra of water, if only it can be unambiguously interpreted (see methods page). Some success has recently been made using femtosecond mid-infrared nonlinear spectroscopy <189, 190> and the theoretical Raman spectra of water clusters <483>.

Anions may be classified as kosmotropes or chaotropes according to how the effect the water's stretch vibrations; ionic kosmotropes (e.g. F-) causing broadening and movement to lower wavenumbers whereas chaotropes (e.g. I-) causing narrowing and movement to higher wavenumbers <758>. Primarily this seems due to water's ability to hydrogen bond to the anions.

The vibrational spectra of H3O2- and H5O2+ are described on another page.

<http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/images/watopt.gif>

The first peak in the far UV of gaseous water (~140 nm) is due to excitation from the unoccupied pz2-type molecular 1b1 orbital (interactive orbitals are available (COW only ). Absorption of UV close-by (~125 nm), excites the 3a1 orbital leading to dissociation into OH + H (photodissociation). Such dissociation can also be achieved by consecutive absorption of two 266 nm photons <589>. Inelastic x-ray scattering studies find this far UV peak to be absent in liquid water <355>, where the major peak is at about 56 nm.

The infrared spectrum runs into microwave radiation at longer wavelengths. This interacts with the water dipole, moving the molecules backwards and forwards and so stretching and bending the hydrogen bonds, which generates heat.

If the radiation is at too high a frequency (> 1000 GHz, l < 0.3 mm), the molecules do not have time to react to the magnetic field changes and no heat is generated. If the radiation is at lower frequencies (< 1 GHz, l > 30 cm), the molecules react to the magnetic field changes but so slowly that effectively no heat is generated. Pure water is almost totally transparent to such low frequency radiation. The maximum absorption varies to higher frequencies at higher temperatures when the weaker hydrogen bonding allows a quicker response to changes in the field <136>. Microwave ovens typically use radiation at 2.450 GHz (l 12.24 cm). More details on the response of water to microwave radiation are available.

608. J. K. Vij, D. R. J. Simpson and O. E. Panarina, Far infrared spectroscopy of water at different temperatures: GHz to THz dielectric spectroscopy of water, J. Mol. Liquids 112 (2003 ) 125-135


Again I could be wrong and i don't understand most of this article but I feel that its telling me that the far infrared spectrum is absorbed by water and can excite water to vibrate to bend or stretch and this will help with reducing water cluster. this generates heat. I think valr tried to tell me that this heat really does bugger all on koiphen he could use a hot stone and have the same effect.

Now in other articles that i read baout FIR they state that this heat raises body temperature and helps increase metabolism, blood flow and also excretion of waste due to smaller cluster. The difference with using a hot stone would be that the heat will only be conducted to the skin whilst FIR rays penetrate much deeper and only create that heat within the cells. And also not risk damaging the surface skin. Again to Luke and Valr this could be a load of crap. I state again this is my attempt using principles that i have read, a person with very limited physics to try and understand how the fir from bacteria house can.

I am awaiting a few more articles and in the mean time I may even goto the library and look up fournals and books (boy thats been a long time)

tewa

The perfect pond water IMHO
KH -36ppm, GH less than 18ppm, mineral clay - 5 to 10ppm (includes trace elements and essential enzymes), TDS 70ppm

JPR
07-28-2005, 10:03 AM
A Scientific team have recently discovered the armor and weapons of a 15th century samurai warrior in the mountains of Tibet. Far away from his home, this Japanese Knight could have only subsisted on local berries that grow no where else in the world but in one valley in ancient Tibet. When the science team talked to locals they spoke of a man, not of their clan, that was said to be 400 years old. He is said to have only eaten the local berry ( called Qewa-chi by the locals). He later died in a hunting accident but the tales of his age live on to this day. But more importantly, the warrior was known to possess incredible vision and could shoot a snow hare 400 yards away with his arrows. The science team collected some of these berries and now grow them in laboratory conditions that exactly mimic conditions of the hidden mountain pass that these berries were discovered in . Today there is small supply of the berry juice available to those suffering from head aches, poor vision, blindness, pink eye, blue eye, no eye, unibrows and ingrown eye lashes.
Dr Lee of the University of Guelph on the island of Tan in the souther pacific region, has discovered that the berry has unique properties that when used as directed, will cure almost all forms of vision impairment. The Nobel winning researcher ( three PhDs) explains that all berries contain the energy of the sun as photosynthesis crystals ( tacky surface molecules) build in the flesh of the fruit. But the Qewa-chi berry is different in that the crystals that form are smaller than other fruit crystals- 10,000 times smaller! If these crystals are harvested using electro-magnetic forces, they retain their shape and more importantly- their sharp edges. Upon ingestion, these crystals enter the brain of test subjects and realign the brain waves and cut through negative magnetic forces so that vision is restored 100%. In studies done, people also showed remarkable eye and hand coordination after taking the Qewa-chi and being exposed to natural sunlight. Measurements at the university show that past times such as archery and golf, improved 355% compared to those not taking Qewa-chi tablets. In Dr Lee’s best selling book- ‘A berry for your eyes, a penny for your thoughts’ the learned scholar shows how the Qewa- chi tablets are responsible for certain well know professional golfer’s career. Using UV bombardment, Mr Lee is now working towards an increased dose that has allowed some subjects to see longer distances than once thought humanly impossible. Handy caps are dropping on all golf courses in the Pacific region since this discovery.
Dr Lee explains this break through as an energy force greater than 12000 infrons. Infron molecules are found only in the atmosphere immediately preceding major atmospheric disturbences. Animals who eat the berry in native Tibet are known to sense storms and not only smell the infrons but SEE them as well. And this accounts for their excellent eye sight and the reason local tribes are vegetarians.
Today’s Institute for Infron study, measures the purest form of Qewa-chi to be that of tropical tsunami. Is it any wonder that eye sight can be improved to levels never thought possible? In blind test studies, test patients were measured as having better eye sight than sharp shine hawks, seeing and getting to the mouse on average 10X faster than the hawks. Similar tests are now being done in Nepal, in conjunction with NASA, that show eye vision is improved 900% in darken rooms when compared to owl vision.
Additional studies reveal that when bacteria are cultured on Qewa-chi media , the cells reproduce at an accelerated rate as they can find one another more easily , even in a darken lab. This has implications for reducing cycling time in nitrification applications. Tokyo water district is now growing bacterial species able to see other bacteria at a distance of 3 meters.
Finally, Dr Lee, a researcher for three decades, was recently quoted as saying “ I did this for the children of world, Qewa-chi is my gift to the world. Before the berry we were blind ,in another sense. Now it is my wish that people will see- truly see. My goal is to have no eye glass manufactures by 2012.”
We wish Dr Lee and his research team good luck and long life. He has changed the world. :) JR

tewa
07-28-2005, 10:05 AM
JR this article is from a science site so definitely credible

It does not directly say ceramic cause water to reduce in cluster due to FIR but it does say that water absorbs FIR from earth leading to heat. From what i said before this heat is a result of vibration of water molecule which may cause reduction in cluster.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/02/040225073100.htm

Atmospheric Water Clusters Provide Evidence Of Global Warming
Clinton, N.Y. -- Researchers at Hamilton College have identified several methods for successfully determining the structures and thermodynamic values for the formation of atmospheric water clusters, which scientists have speculated may accelerate global warming. The Hamilton team's findings were published in the March 3 issue of the Journal of the American Chemical Society.

The greenhouse effect is caused by molecules that absorb infrared radiation released from the Earth's surface, trapping heat in the atmosphere. Water acts as a greenhouse gas because it is one of the molecules that can absorb infrared radiation and cause warming. "Our research supports the suggestion that in a global warming scenario higher temperatures will lead to increased absorption of solar radiation by water clusters," said lead author, George Shields, the Winslow Professor of Chemistry at Hamilton College. "The prediction that higher order water clusters (trimers, tetramers, and pentamers) are present in the atmosphere is significant because it shows that these entities must be considered as key players in atmospheric processes."

Previous research has hypothesized that water clusters (two or more water molecules held together by hydrogen bonds) could catalyze acid rain or the formation of aerosol in the atmosphere, and even lead to acceleration of the Greenhouse effect. All of these ideas depend on the presence of water clusters in the troposphere, the region of the atmosphere that is directly heated by the Earth's surface. The Hamilton group can now predict the concentration of water clusters present in the troposphere. Large water clusters have for some time been thought to catalyze reactions which have implications for the chemistry that takes place in the atmosphere. A paper in the June 27, 2003 issue of Science documented the first detection of a water dimer (two hydrogen bonded water molecules) in the troposphere.

Shields said, "Once we knew the dimers were present we investigated whether larger water clusters might also be involved in a variety of atmospheric chemistry processes. We started by using high level quantum chemistry methods to predict dimer concentrations that would be found on a warm, humid day. The accuracy of our dimer calculation, which matched the experimentalists' detection of water dimer concentrations under the same conditions, led us to calculate the concentration of other water clusters in the troposphere." The researchers found that water clusters consisting of cyclic trimers, cyclic tetramers, and cyclic pentamers should all be detectable in the lower troposphere.

The Hamilton researchers used the documented information on water cluster structures to investigate the effectiveness of various model chemistries in modeling gas-phase water cluster formation. The performance of these chemistries was compared against previous calculations, and the Hamilton team found that thermodynamic calculations by Gaussian-2, Gaussian-3 and Complete Basis Set-APNO chemistries compared quite well to the prior calculations. (Experimentalists reported a value of 6 x 10^14 dimers per cubic centimeter at 292 K on a 100% humid day. The Hamilton study predicted a value of 4 x 10^14 dimers per cubic centimeter at 292 K.)

###

George Shields conducted the research with two undergraduate students, Meghan Dunn and Emma Pokon. The research was made possible through funding from the American Chemical Society/Petroleum Research Fund, Merck/AAAS, the Camille and Henry Dreyfus Foundation, and from NSF Grant CHE-0116435 for supercomputer instrumentation as part of the MERCURY supercomputer consortium (http:/​/​mars.hamilton.edu).

Editor's Note: The original news release can be found here.

tewa

Valarc
07-28-2005, 10:12 AM
Tewa,
At the bottom of your last post you started to get the right idea, when you were talking about bending and stretching water molecules. Bending and stretching water molecules DOES happen when you heat the material. At the very beginning of this discussion on koichat, one of the first things I said was that FIR is THERMAL radiation, and the only effect it will ever have on the water is to slightly heat it. The problem with this is, the infrared radiation given off by a room temperature object is far too weak to cause any heating significant enough to make any difference in water.

Also, all the stuff about electric and magnetic fields, you actually hit the nail right on the head in your own post - the fields in FIR aren't NEARLY strong enough to do anything to the structure of the water - those experiments are carried out with very large, very high powered, very strong sources of fields. Plus, until you have a better understanding of electrodynamics, you really can't be qualified to make jumps like that.

As far as the binding energy calculations I did on koichat... I calculated the energy in a photon, which was a thousand times smaller than what is needed to break the H-O bond (because junglegeorge claimed this was what was happening) and a hundred times smaller than what is required to break the hydrogen bonds (this is a specific type of van der waals force that occurs in certain molecules).

If you read up a bit on the photoelectric effect, you will see a remarkable experimental result, one that boggled scientists for quite some time and was a huge part of the results that spurred the formulation of quantum mecanics. The photoelectric effect is when light knocks electrons off of atoms and causes a current in certain special materials. The remarkable finding that scientists discovered is that below a certain frequency, no matter how intense the light, no matter how brightly you shined it, the effect would not be shown. Go to even the weakest light source above that frequencey, and you will see the photoelectric effect.

The reason for this is that the energy in electromagnetic radiation is "quantized" into discrete packages called photons. A higher intensity of light simply means that there are more photons being produced. However, it is INCREDIBLY rare for two photons to ever hit the same spot at the same time. Therefore, when a photon strikes an atom, it absorbs that bit of energy, but due to the highly unstable nature of higher energy levels, the energy is immediately either re-radiated, or turned into thermal energy in the form of vibrations of the media. Of course, vibrations means we've come back full circle and are talking about heat again. So, to answer your question, lots of photons would not be able to have the effect of breaking the bonds.

I'm not even going to dignify the "talking nice to water affects its structure" nonsense with a response.

Speaking of pseudoscience, if you really want to read a good debunking of a LOT of common pseudoscience, I suggest reading http://badastronomy.com/

tewa
07-28-2005, 10:56 AM
Valr

Thanks for your post.

Even partial alignment of the water molecules with the electric field will cause pre-existing hydrogen bonding to become bent or broken.

how much energy is needed for partial alignment?

How much energy is emitted from FIR in bacteria house?

I gathered that water vibrates at different wavelengths from that article, what energy in the infrared spectrum is needed to vibrate and weaken these H bonds?

I understand that solutes in water will effect the cluster size? Can you please explain how these will effect cluster size, the solids dissolved in normal pond water such as KH, GH, minerals, trace elements etc?

Do you agree that water with larger clusters, more order and rigidity will trap and hold more waste compared to water with smaller clusters?

BTW I didn bring up the water talking topic so please direct your anger to the appropriate people :D:

tewa

tewa
07-28-2005, 12:13 PM
ok guys this article is a bit side tracked but is very related.

Many have said small water clusters being healthy is pseudoscience. Momotaro has claimed FIR breaks water clusters leading to smaller clusters better for health.

This article was written by martin chaplin, it demonstrates how water in living cells are really like. Many sites have claimed that the best water for the body is the same water that is found in cells. I believe this is on the korean site that JR laughed out loud about with fresh water fish and salt waer fish.

ISIS Press Release 13/10/04
The Importance of Cell Water
Prof. Martin Chaplin presents a new theory on the structure of water in the cell that switches between low-density and high-density clusters

References for this article are posted on ISIS members’ website. Details here.

The figures will only appear with the printed article in the next issue of Science in Society. Subscribe here.

Although we understand much of what goes on inside cells at a molecular level, we don’t know how all the molecules can work together as a whole. Much useful biochemistry has been discovered using dilute preparations from homogenised dead cells, but living cells are very different, and contain more concentrated solutes and more organised proteins. Indeed, test tube experiments may mislead us, and it should come as no surprise to find that living cells possess characteristics that are very much more than the sum of their parts.

The study of the live cell is fraught with difficulty, as most procedures change it from its native state. The key to understanding the cell comes from acknowledging the one constituent that has often been ignored: water. The significance of water for the cell becomes clear when we seek to solve big puzzles, such as ‘How are potassium ions able to maintain a high concentration inside cells whereas sodium ions are found mainly outside?’ and ‘How do cells remain functional even when large holes are made in their surface membranes?’

There are at least four views as to how the water inside the cell affects its function:

The water mostly acts as an uncomplicated environment for the cellular processes, which are determined by the structure of the macromolecules only. Although this view seems the one most promoted in current textbooks by default, it is rapidly losing favour due to its inability to explain natural processes.
The water forms polarised multi-layers over extended protein surfaces, as proposed for many years by Gilbert Ling [1]. There is much experimental support for the foundations of this theory but little experimental support for the required structural changes in the proteins or the involvement of extended protein surfaces, as proposed.
The water is involved in intracellular changes between ‘sol’ and ‘gel’ states as more recently promoted by Gerald Pollack [2]. This is an interesting and useful idea but without a clear molecular mechanism.
The water actively changes the density of its hydrogen bonded structuring to enable diverse intracellular processes, in a manner compatible with the basic ideas of both Gilbert Ling and Gerald Pollack.
The theory that I shall describe in this article (which I presented at the Gordon Research Conference on Interfacial Water and Cell Biology in June 2004) belongs to the fourth, new category. I propose that changes in the density and clustering of intracellular water are modulated by the mobility of key proteins, which in turn are controlled by the energy status and ionic content of the cell.
The nature of water
Water possesses many properties that seem strange, or anomalous [3]. Some of these, such as its high melting and boiling points can be simply explained as due to water’s hydrogen bonded clustering. Over the last 10 years, a broad range of evidence has accumulated concerning a two-state structuring within liquid water, which can explain many of the remaining anomalies [4, 5]. This theory involves the presence in liquid water, of clusters with a lower density comparable with that of ice. The water molecules in such clusters flicker between partners as their hydrogen bonds are constantly making and breaking. Over a long time scale, they appear as favoured arrangements. These low-density water clusters do not consist of ice-like crystals, due to their lack of long-range order, but they do contain water molecules linked by hydrogen bonds in an expanded, 4-coordinated tetrahedral arrangement. At the smallest scale, the water may be thought of as an equilibrium between two water tetramers (see Fig. 1): structure A, held closely by non-bonded interactions, forming a more dense structure, and structure B, with molecules held further away and linked by hydrogen bonds to form a less dense structure There is little difference in energy between the structures A and B, so the equilibrium is easily affected by the presence of solutes and surfaces. An increase in temperature or pressure will shift the equilibrium to the left.Figure 1. Equilibrium between two water tetramers.

Although the natural structuring in water at ordinary temperatures tends towards the ‘collapsed’ structure A, the low density structure B can grow to form larger non-crystalline clusters based on dodecahedral (12-sided) water cluster cores, similar to those found in the crystalline ‘clathrate hydrates’; as for example, the extensive icosahedral (H2O)280 aggregate built up from tetrahedrally hydrogen-bonded water molecules surrounding a dodecahedron made up of 20 water molecules, the basic clathrate cage (Fig. 2).

Figure 2. Extensive icosahedral (H2O)280 structure of water built up from tetrahedrally hydrogen-bonded water molecules.

Intracellular water contains lower density water with more potassium ions
The differences in intracellular and extracellular environments of cells is primarily due to the extensive surface area and high intracellular concentration of solutes that promote the low-density clustering of water and restricted diffusion inside cells. The extensive surface of cellular membranes (e.g., each liver cell contain ~100 000 mm2 membrane surface area) favours the formation of low-density water inside cells, as the membrane lipids contain hydrophilic head groups that encourage this organization of the associated interfacial water. Other surfaces attract the water, so stretching the hydrogen-bonded water contained by the confined spaces within the cells.

The difference in ionic concentrations is particularly evident in sodium (Na+; intracellular, 10 mM; extracellular, 150 mM) and potassium (K+; intracellular, 159 mM; extracellular, 4 mM). Na+ ions create more broken hydrogen bonding and prefer a high aqueous density, whereas K+ ions prefer a low-density aqueous environment, as proven by Philippa Wiggins [6]. The differences in intracellular and extracellular distributions of potassium and sodium are due to differences in the affinity of these ions for water. The interactions between water and Na+ are stronger than those between water molecules, which are in turn stronger than those between water and K+ ions, all due to the differences in surface charge density of the ions - that of the smaller Na+ ion being nearly twice that of K+ ions. Ca2+, with an intracellular concentration 0.1 mM and an extracellular concentration of 2.5 mM, has a surface charge density more than twice that of Na+, and has even stronger destructive effects on low-density hydrogen-bonding than Na+ ions.

Other studies confirm the preference of K+ ions for low-density water over Na+ ions. The ions partition according to their preferred aqueous environment; in particular, the K+ ions are preferred within the intracellular environment and naturally accumulate inside the cells at the expense of Na+ ions. This process occurs simply as a result of the water structuring without the help of putative ion-pumps in the cell membrane.

Besides, membrane ion-pumps cannot produce these large differences in ionic composition, simply because the (ATP) energy required far exceeds the energy available to the cell. Also, many studies, as for example, the extensive series carried out by Gilbert Ling, have shown that cells do not need an intact membrane or active energy (ATP) production to maintain the ionic concentration gradients.

The effect of intracellular protein on water structuring
The degree to which the density of cell water is lowered is determined by the solutes and the state of motion of protein. Water has conflicting effects in the mixed environments around proteins due to the variety of amino acids making up their surfaces. Weak interactions between the protein and surface water molecules allow greater protein flexibility. Strong interactions endow the protein with greater stability and solubility.

There is generally an ordered structure in the layer of water molecules immediately surrounding the protein, with both hydrophobic clathrate-like and hydrogen bonded water molecules each helping the other to optimize water’s hydrogen bonding network. Protein carboxylate groups are generally surrounded by strongly hydrogen-bonded water whereas the water surrounding the basic groups arginine, histidine and lysine tends towards a more-open clathrate structuring. The formation of partial clathrate cages over hydrophobic areas maximizes non-bonded interactions between the water and the protein without loss of hydrogen bonds between the water molecules whereas carboxylate groups usually only fit a collapsed water structure (see below) creating a reactive fluid zone.

The rotation of the proteins will cause changes in the water structuring outside this closest hydration shell. At the breaking surface, hydrogen bonds are ruptured, creating a zone of higher density water. Protein rotation thus creates a surrounding high-density water zone with many broken hydrogen bonds.

The importance of protein carboxylate groups
Protein has two acidic amino acids, aspartate and glutamate, with carboxylate (-CO2-) side chains. Normally, aqueous hydrogen bonding to these carboxylate oxygen atoms both attracts water molecules causing a localised high density water clustering and reduces the acidity of the carboxylic acids. Otherwise, when the surrounding water molecules prefer to hydrogen bond to themselves as with the formation of a clathrate cage, the acidity of the carboxylate groups is increased. It is found that Na+ ions prefer binding to the weaker carboxylic acids whereas K+ ions prefer the stronger acids [1].

Na+ and K+ ions also behave differently when close to the carboxylate groups; K+ ions have a preference for forming ion pairs, where there is direct contact between the K+ and carboxylate ions, whereas Na+ ions form solvent separated pairings where water molecules lie between the Na+ and carboxylate ions, forming strengthened hydrogen bonds to the carboxylate groups [7]. This is due to the Na+ ions holding on to their water more strongly. The K+ ions prefer to be within a clathrate water cage and this preference both reinforces its direct ion pairing to the carboxylate group and discourages aqueous hydrogen bonding to the associated carboxylate groups.

The direct association of K+ ions with the aspartate and glutamate groups in proteins is the central theme of Ling’s fixed charge hypothesis where evidence for the molecular mechanism for the association includes (1) the low intracellular electrical conductance, (2) the strongly reduced mobility of intracellular K+ ions, (3) the one to one stoichiometric absorption of K+ ions to the carboxylate groups and (4) identification of the K+ ion absorption sites as the aspartate and glutamate side chains of the intracellular proteins.

The importance of protein mobility
Actin is a highly conserved and widespread eukaryotic protein (42-43 kDa) responsible for many functions in cells. Non-muscle cells contain actin in amounts 5-10% of all protein, whereas muscle cells contain about 20%. Actin is converted between a freely rotating monomer molecule (G-actin; about 4 - 6 nm diameter) and a static right-handed double helical polymer protein filament (F-actin; up to several microns in length) by ATP; a process involving the conversion of an a-helix to a b-turn in one of its structural domains. Each molecule of the freely rotating G-actin can stir a large volume of water, whereas F-actin has a much more ordered structure so creating more order in its surrounding water. The protein fibres trap water, reducing its movement and compensated by greater hydrogen bonding. Also, capillary action stretches the confined water, so ensuring that it is of lower density and hence more highly structured than the bulk water.

All actin molecules contain a conserved negatively charged N-terminus, for example the N-acetyl-aspartyl-glutamyl-aspartyl-glutamyl sequence in rabbit muscle a-actin. When G-actin polymerises in the cell under the action of ATP to form F-actin, this highly carboxylated antenna is placed on the exposed outer edge of the helix, where it may be additionally used as a binding site for other proteins, such as myosin. Tubulin, another intracellular structural protein that forms immobile structures within cells, possesses an even more extensive negatively charged acidic C-terminal conserved antenna of about eight carboxylate groups that serves similar functions.

F-actin’s multiply negatively charged N-terminus attracts positively charged cations. Under conditions when the carboxylic acids are weaker, both K+ and Na+ ions may form solvent separated species. This competition results in a preference for Na+ ions and high-density water. However, the natural rotation of the protein will tend to sweep such ions, and their associated water, away. If the protein is prevented from rotating, Na+ ions tend to destroy any low density structuring around carboxylate groups of the protein. However, the intracellular Na+ ion concentration is generally far lower than that of K+ ions, which allows K+ ions to compete successfully for these sites, forming ion pairs and encouraging clathrate formation.

Cooperative conversion of the water structuring
Binding of K+ ions by the carboxylate groups lowers the ionic strength of the intracellular solution. As this ionic strength decreases, the acidity of phosphate groups decreases, resulting in the conversion of the intracellular doubly charged HPO42- ions to the singly charged H2PO4- ions, more favourable to low density water clustering. All intracellular phosphate entities will behave similarly. The cooperative effects of the change between static filament formation and freely diffusional protein are summarized in Fig. 3.

Figure 3. A summary of the cooperative effects when mobile proteins such as actin are polymerised,

Formation of K+-carboxylate ion pairs leads to the formation of a surrounding clathrate water structuring that further guides icosahedral water structuring (so ensuring maximal hydrogen-bond formation) and informing neighbouring carboxylate groups. This signalling cooperatively reinforces the tetrahedrality of the water structuring found between these groups. The clathrate cage allows rotational mobility (like a ball-and-socket joint), enabling the hydrogen bonding to search out cooperative partners (Fig. 4).

Figure 4. This diagram shows the clustering around two K+-carboxylate ion pairs (about 4 nm apart) as may be attached to part of two protein’s structures. There are 7-8 shells of water around each surface as is typically found between intracellular proteins. The K+ ions are shown as violet and the water network is shown as linked (i.e. hydrogen bonded) oxygen atoms (shown red) without showing their associated hydrogen atoms. The hydrogen bonding initially forms clathrate cages around the ion pairs, followed by a more extensive icosahedral arrangement. This is then followed by extension of the hydrogen bonding along ‘rays’ connecting the neighbouring sites. Once these ‘rays’ link, the hydrogen bonding of each reinforces the other in a cooperative manner, so strengthening the linkage and reinforcing the overall low density aqueous environment. As the aqueous clathrate cage possesses a more negative charge on its interior and a more positive charge on the outside, there is a marked polarization in the water molecules that reinforces the hydrogen bonding interactions.

Although the clustering involves a major drop in aqueous mobility, the stronger 4-coordinated bonding compensates this. This theory offers a molecular explanation for Ling’s association-induction polarized multilayer model (see "Strong medicine needed in cell biology", this issue). The initial icosahedral size (3 nm diameter), surrounding each ion pair, also equals the water domain size proposed by John Watterson. The tetrahedral structuring possesses five-fold symmetry, which prevents easy freezing in line with the pronounced supercooling found for intracellular water.

Extension of the clathrate network and its associated low density water enables K+ ion binding to all aspartic and glutamic acid groups, not just the key ones within the crucial N-terminal acidic centres. Thus, the sol-gel transition of Pollack (see "Biology of least action", SiS 18) may be interpreted as due to the formation of low density water clustering (the gel state) due to clathrate clustering around K+-carboxylate ion pairs.

In the presence of raised levels of Na+ and/or Ca2+ ions, as occasionally occurs during some cell functions, these ions will replace some of the bound K+ ions. These newly formed solvent separated Na+ and/or Ca2+ ion pairings destroy the low-density clathrate structures and initiate a cooperative conversion of the associated water towards a denser structuring.

Conclusion
In conclusion, the aqueous information transfer within the cell involves the following:

Intracellular water favours K+ ions over Na+ ions.
Freely rotating proteins create zones of higher density water, which tend towards a lower density clustering if the rotation is prevented.
Static charge-dense intracellular macromolecular structures prefer K+ ion pairs to freely soluble K+ ions.
Ion paired K+-carboxylate groupings prefer local clathrate water structuring.
Clathrate water prefers local low density water structuring.
Low density water structuring can reinforce the low-density character of neighbouring site water structuring.
Na+ and Ca2+ ions can destroy the low density structuring in a cooperative manner.
Martin Chaplin is Professor of Applied Science, London South Bank University, UK, with special interests in the interactions between water and biological molecules.

JR you should recognise the author of this article the references are on SIS which i am not a member and can't get. Its the same author from the same website you said when you tried to educate me between the difference of testimonial and science journal. The one that you reckon showed the flaws in my argument. By the way i was reading that site before you even posted about it and the latter post where I got the articles and references which, valr answered for you, are from the same site. I did read the bit about expensive water which is probably the bit that excited you most. haha :D: :D: typical

This article supports small water cluster being good for the body. I feel we are getting a little closer to the truth.

tewa

tewa
07-28-2005, 12:41 PM
Ok another testimonial, before you go off JR this one is for the many other viewers out there (over 4900) besides yourself, valr, and a handful of others to read. its about small water clusters and funnily enough guess where the idea came from hots springs. Reminds of when someone once said that the FIR of BH was inspired by hot springs was a load of ****.

So here goes

The Secrets of Clustered Water:
An Interview with Dr. Lee Lorenzen
By Uri Dowbenko

It was a case of life and death for Lee Lorenzen. His wife Penny had been severely ill with a chronic fatigue-induced myalgia and multiple viral infections. "I had exhausted everything," he says. "We tried medication, vitamins, herbs, acupuncture, chiropractic-you name it; we tried it. Nothing was working. Finally I decided to get her on a plane, take her to the healing springs, and let her soak in the water. There was nothing else to do." And that's how his odyssey to find a cure began.

Lee Lorenzen has a Ph.D. in Nutritional Biochemistry and is licensed in Clinical Nutrition by the American Licensing Board of Nutrition. He has also spent many years in collaboration with Japanese scientists and is a founding member of Tokyo's Japanese American Resonance Research Society, as well as its Vice Chairman. As his research into healing springs continued, Dr. Lorenzen made many new discoveries, both scientific and personal. "I examined a lot of the [healing] waters from all over and I didn't find any real relationship. They were no different than good old drinking water. And the chemistry didn't account for the healing properties which people had experienced. Then I started to dig and found a scientific paper by Dr. Albert von Szent-Gyorgyi, a doctor who had won the Nobel Prize [in 1937]. He dedicated his life to looking at water structure, and that's when a light bulb went on for me. I began to look at-not what's in the water-but the water itself.

This epiphany led Dr. Lorenzen to Japan and the very famous healing springs of Kirumisu, outside of Kyoto. The source of the springs at Kirumisu are very deep and mystical. "I worked with Dr. Ishibasi and Dr. Emoto in Tokyo," Dr. Lorenzen explains. "We designed a way of flash-freezing water with liquid nitrogen right at the source of the springs. We kept it in liquid nitrogen, bringing the samples back to the laboratory in Tokyo and then analyzing them. We were able to show a real relationship between the source and the healing properties."

What Dr. Lorenzen and colleagues discovered was that the water was micro-clustered, or structured in geometric rings, which look like six-sided snowflakes when frozen. "It was basically these hexagons-these forms that were most prevalent in the healing springs-that don't really exist in a lot of other areas," continues Lorenzen. "When you flash freeze them, you can do crystallography and X-ray analyses. It was really quite unique. We had no idea that water would form like this. We published these findings in the Japanese journal Snow and Ice, a scientific peer review journal, last year. This year our results were documented in the book The Message from Water, a summary of over ten thousand photographs taken during our research process. "One of the breakthroughs of the water [that Dr. Lorenzen ultimately developed,] is that it tends to stay fairly stable with good biological activity. Biologically active means that the water works well in hydrating living tissue, unlike common [fluoridated and chlorinated] tap water. Most importantly, the size and shape of these unique [six-sided ring clustered] water molecules allows them to pass through cell walls freely, delivering oxygen, nutrients, proteins and enzymes, while removing toxic substances.

"This is the primary form of water in a very young child," says Dr. Lorenzen. "Similar research done by Dr. Katayama called it Clustered Water, or biowater. He showed that biowater is the dominant form of water in very young, potent cells. By the time you reach the age of thirty-six, your amount of biowater or Clustered Water drops by sixty percent." The effects of this water are two-fold. First, it produces a standing wave effect as described by Professor Waterson of Griffiths Uiversity. It helps to re-orient water along proteins, which helps protein, and body enzymes, function more efficiently.

"Secondly, what's left over after the standing wave, is a large collection of water rings that have a very high mobility," Dr. Lorenzen continues. "It penetrates the body through the stomach. In just a few days, we see that someone who's very ill and dehydrated will show a very significant improvement in overall health and energy levels."

"You see, we're not treating disease," Dr. Lorenzen asserts in defense of potential political persecution by government regulating agencies including the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). "We're just trying to help re-induce order in the protein systems. Protein systems themselves can't have adequate order, unless there are actual water rings involved in bending and holding the proteins."

Dr. Lorenzen's research in Japan on the Clustered Water phenomenon has been ongoing for more than thirteen years. "Frankly, the Japanese were just more open-minded about new technologies," he says. "We've done clinical double-blind studies with private physicians. And we've taken that data, very significant data, to universities and research facilities [in the United States]. They dismissed it. . . . They said it was not possible." Dr. Lorenzen says that he has done over 210,000 patient histories, which show that Clustered Water helps in a variety of ailments, but he insists "it is not disease-specific, but it helps in overall cell function." And that's the key to observing FDA guidelines. "Basically, this is not a therapy," asserts Dr. Lorenzen. "This is not a disease treatment. If you go and have restorative surgery, a crushed bone for example, an orthopedic surgeon rebuilds that bone and gives it structure and function. We're basically dong the same thing [with Clustered Water] at the cellular level. And frankly, it 's so simple, it's been overlooked."

"It's a much more efficient way of hydrating cell systems in that it's giving [or returning] the water ring structure, which is necessary for normal cell [DNA and enzyme] function, signaling, replication, and repair. As we age, we dehydrate anyway. That's well documented. . . . We're showing that with these Clustered Water solutions we can help eliminate edema, help improve intercellular water pressure, help improve protein structure, and therefore cell function."

World-renowned public health expert Dr. Leonard Horowitz agrees. An internationally known authority in behavioral science and public health education, Dr. Horowitz has authored many books and articles. In his book, Healing Codes for the Biological Apocalypse, (Tetrahedron, LLC, 1999), he writes that "the specific frequency used by genetic biochemists to repair DNA, the hereditary code of life, was impregnated into Clustered Water by Dr. Lorenzen."

"He and other investigators discovered that six-sided, crystal-shaped, hexagonal clustered water molecules form the supportive matrix of healthy DNA," writes Dr. Horowitz. "During aging and intoxication, these crystalline clusters are depleted, thus compromising the integrity of cellular DNA. This primary process underlying aging negatively affects virtually every physiological function." Biochemist Steve Chemiske writes that these hexagonal water clusters, which support the DNA structure, "vibrate at specific resonant frequencies and these frequencies can help restore homeostasis to every structure in the body through signal transduction . . . , the process by which one form of energy is converted to another." Dr. Lorenzen's vision for the future includes the integration of Clustered Water technology into current medical practice. "Now that we have patents on the process and applications," he said, "we want to expand the technology into beverages, skin care cosmetics, and pharmaceuticals. It can be used for IV [intravenous] solutions, eye-drop solutions, and other solutions that will serve as a more effective delivery system, as well as rapid hydration solutions."

In fact, the latest products include an eye-drop solution as well as a skin cream. "We're not trying to undermine the pharmaceutical industry, but we're trying to use this technology to enhance it. Then we can have a better delivery system. The whole industry can become more cost-effective, and it will enhance safety, lower toxicity, and lessen the side effects [of medicines].

"In the case of reducing toxicity-many chemotherapeutic agents, for example, are supplied to the individual systemically, since the patient is dehydrated and can't get adequate cell transfer anyway. That's why they use megadoses. We've already documented this in the National University of Mexico City study, in which they hydrate the patients for thirty days prior to giving them therapy. They're finding they have to use much less medication. This could be very important to the pharmaceutical industry as a supportive adjunct.

"If we can pretreat the patient with a hydration system that's going to allow better cell water turnover and therefore better absorption. This increases the efficiency of the medication. Pretreatment of patients with Clustered Water solutions is Dr. Lorenzen's major goal for the future. "That 's what we're doing in the clinics," he says. "We have thirty-two clinics-classical medical clinics-so we're testing patients with a solution to document how quickly the cells can absorb. It's a non-invasive, non-radiation process using modified MRI technology, to assess the results-relative cell hydration and transport."

"We're not treating disease," reiterates Dr. Lorenzen, on behalf of the government authorities. "We're trying to restore order, so that the body can heal itself."


Ok this lorenzen guy does sell some water thingy, but its insightful where the two ideas came from, one was for better water for human health the other led to better water for koi health!



tewa

JPR
07-28-2005, 05:07 PM
Yes Tewa that one is an old story and the good doctor is a saint in the homeopathic health industry. The photographing of the crystals is also what Roddy had brought up to you. In Roddy’s Doctor’s case, he is actually communicating with water! In fact, in one of his experiments , this Japanese doctor ( priest actually) labeled one beaker of water with the name Adolf Hitler ( True!) And the water produced horrible looking crystals supposedly in respond to the name. The water must have known its history as well as being moody?? ;)

Ok, here is my favorite one right - also spawned from the belief in cluster shrunken and hexagonal water----

"...the core of each DNA double helix is a column of water clusters...Small hexagonal water clusters fit into and through the hexagonal channels in cell membranes and inside the cell, swiftly delivering their goods and removing wastes." (Source: Water as a Communicator - Institute of Heartmath Research Center).
1. "...Aging is a loss of Hexagonal Water from organs, tissues and cells, and an overall decrease in total body water. Replenishing the Hexagonal Water in our bodies can increase vitality, slow the aging process, and prevent disease". Molecular Water Environment Theory: Dr. Mu Shik Jhon.
Do These Benefits Interest You?
Super cellular hydration and revitalization;
Increased Oxygenation at the cellular level;
Enhanced endurance and reduced recovery time from strenuous exercise
Electron-rich free-radical neutralizaton and cleansing;
Slightly alkaline pH
Activation of enzymes, immune system support and greater metabolic balance.
Better nutrient absorption.
These can all lead to improved body performance and stamina.
A unique source of ENERGY, ENERGY, ENERGY,
starting at the cellular level - where it counts!!

How Does It Work?

The Vitalizer Plus™ technology incorporates basic principles utilized in nature, to create a special life-enhancing water your body will love.
In nature, this life-enhancing water begins with rain or snow which is naturally energized and if not polluted with atmospheric acids, is often highly structured.
It uses movement. Water naturally forms vortices when flowing around stones and other objects, oxygenates itself in the vortices and by flowing over stones and little water falls, receiving far infrared enhancement from the sun and electromagnetic stimulants from granite type rocks and the earths natural magnetic field.
Therefore, in the Vitalizer Plus™, a highly powerful vortex, electromagnetic fields and ceramic materials emitting FIR energy emulate the natural phenomena which create healthy water in nature.
The end result is a super wetting hexagonal structure carrying extra oxygen, energy and ionic minerals deep into the cellular environment in seconds.
Scientific research from many studies found in the newly translated book "The Water Puzzle and the Hexagonal Key" makes a strong, well documented case for the observed presence of hexagonal water around healthy cells and organs and five sided or Penta water structures around cancer cells and sick organs. Magnetically produced hexagonal water is the most stable according to research, vs. structured water produced by ionizers.
NOW, YOU CAN CREATE THE SAME LIVING WATER IN YOUR OWN HOME WITH THE VITALIZER PLUS™!

CAPABILITIES OF THE VITALIZER PLUS™
Scientifically documented(see data below) to:
(1) Structure water - powerful magnetic and infrared sources reduce the size of individual water clusters, creating Hexagonal Water for more efficient and rapid penetration into the cells of your body.
(2) Increase Oxygen - turbulent forces create a powerful and visible vortex, increasing the amount of oxygen in your drinking water up to 30%.
(3) Add selected, "stucture-making" minerals/ions - a unique mineral core, comprised of coral calcium, zinc, lithium and others contribute to the structuring of water. The water needs to be purified by steam distillation or high quality reverse osmosis processes beforehand, to remove "structure breaking" minerals/ions such as chlorine, potassium, aluminum, etc.).

USING SELECTED IONIC MATERIALS TO CREATE HEXAGONALLY STRUCTURED WATER CLUSTERS
A select set of ionic minerals are known to enhance the construction of hexagonal water. These minerals occur in very small amounts and help "organize" the water molecules into tightly packed arrangements which serve to protect and enhance cellular health(see pictures below and references HERE). Commonly occurring minerals can be grouped into "structure making" or "structure breaking" categories as listed below.
In order to ensure that the final product has the correct mineral "balance", the water is first purified by either steam distillation or a high quality reverse osmosis system; the minerals are then combined in the vortexial water movement in the Vitalizer Plus™.
Calcium, sodium, zinc, iron, silver, copper and others help to convert water nto hexagonal water while potassium, chloride, fluoride, aluminum, sulfide and others destroy the hexagonal structuring of water.

here's a picture of this miracle unit! Looks like a plain old blender to me?
The process is similar to erasing unwanted information from a computer disc before placing new information on the disc.

Roddy Conrad
07-28-2005, 05:47 PM
Well, we could look at this another way.

I am a positive person who tells my virgin lava rock trickle tower and shower filters to cycle, speak to them nicely every day, provide them everything they need, and they cycle ammonia in a few days and nitrite in about a week. JR tells his filters some unpleasant stuff about everyone, tells them they can't cycle, and they don't. Then JR tells everyone the water can't listen to what we say. It seems to me he made my point instead of his, LOL!

I did bother testing my koi pond, heavily stocked with very large koi, last night. The nitrate level, as measured by Hanna colorimeter technology, is 0.0 ppm. The nitrite is 0.09 ppm. The ammonia is 0.02 ppm. This is with 32 very large koi in a 4000 gallon pond system, a stocking density of one large koi per every 125 gallons. I change about 3% of the water in this system per week when I do mechanical filter flushes, the nitrates are brought down by the trickle towers and shower filters, which get kind loving words and pleasant music.

So, again, does my water listen to the pleasant requests and nice music and words from Lizzie and I? And does JR need a lot more water and filtration for less fish because of his attitude towards water as an inanimant object? Does he also think his fish don't recognize his footsteps and voice, I wonder?

Then there is the overall question of what is really important to our time here in Earth School. I think it is to get our thinking straightened out, so I work on my thought process with my wife Lizzie's help. I see some others who don't seem to be making any progress in that regard. So I guess they will have to repeat Earth School a few more times until the lessons are learned. If Miracles are not routinely happening for YOU, then maybe you need to chart a new course on the waters of life?

Okay, here I go again, but it is what is running through my head, and a few out there may find the thoughts useful in some small way.

For some, the Bakki shower is a miracle, for others the similar, but less expensive, technology has been a bigger Miracle for their ponds. And I am one of those who consider the lava rock fountain by Nevada Water Gardens (Las Vegas, Nevada) as the biggest Miracle pond biofilter I have ever used. They have been selling them for about 15 years now, to very happy ponding customers.

L5Vegan
07-29-2005, 12:07 AM
SMG,
If your still reading this one.
Was any difference in water temperature noted between your lava rock filtered tank and the BH filtered tank? :thinking: :thinking:
Thanks
Dan :)

ShiroMujiGirl
07-29-2005, 12:57 AM
Nope. Identcal systems, identical everything except the media.

I shall now put on my FIR bikini and talk nicely to the water.

BillJ
07-29-2005, 04:21 AM
I'd be interested in learning how water affects light.What changes occur to sunlight passing through,say,6' of water?Roddy?

Bill

Roddy Conrad
07-29-2005, 06:04 AM
The "Far Infrared Radiation" in sunlight is absorbed by the water. And the Far Infrared Radiation from the full sun is a lot more powerful than any FIR coming from the BH media in a Bakki shower filter!

Sunlight is full of all kinds of wavelengths of radiation, not just visible light. Plants, including the fuzz algae on the walls and bottom of the pond, use a portion of the light, and certainly would die without it in a few days.

JPR
07-29-2005, 06:48 AM
Whats very interesting about this general FIR concept that is found in the marketing of a few dozen products worldwide is that the benefits touted contradict themselves from one ad to another? And the 'science' varies with each product? Indeed if you read enough of these sites, you can see where some are using exactly the same copy material and others have a different explanation entirely for the same procedure!
I was just directed to a fish tank product that uses a tube filled with a magnet and FIR ceramic- just like the 'blender' I posted. The manufacturer says that aquariums do not get natural sunlight, the greatest source of FIR, nor does it get normal evaporation cycles like the outdoors, so it needs FIR from the tube. Yet in 'our koi pond world' we have all the evaporation and sunlight you could ask for? So this promoter seems to be at odds with other promoters basically on the same product design. I think this bolsters both Roddy's point about the sun and radiation and Stephen's point about the spin needed in modern marketing to move product or expand customer base.


Roddy did you visit the site I posted? www.chem1.com

JPR
07-29-2005, 07:51 AM
Here's an interesting product. Not sure why these people always feel compelled to bring NASA into the picture as approving authorities or how they even get NASA to look at their products but these folks say they did- indirectly anyway?

ECO-Aqualizer - Fact or Fiction? by Ben Johnson
reprinted with permission from Tropical Fish Hobbyist July 2003

Every once in a while, a new product or idea is utilized in the maintenance of aquariums that transforms and evolves the science of fish keeping. The pioneers of these concepts are met with great speculation as to the usefulness towards aquarium husbandry. Undergravel filters, wet/dry filters and protein skimmers were all at one time thought to be ‘hocus pocus’. Another such product is waiting its turn to be poked and prodded. It is called ECO-Aqualizer. If it turns out to work as claimed, it will most certainly become a necessary component of any captive aquatic ecosystem. ECO-Aqualizer utilizes small but powerful magnets and a ‘far infra-red’ radiating material to improve water quality and help fish to maintain a strong immune system among other benefits.


This product comes in the form of a tube with barbed ends on each side. As aquarium water is passed through the unit, it is subjected to forces which weaken Hydrogen bonds. These bonds are the result of the attraction that each of the two Hydrogen ions in one H2O molecule have to the One Oxygen ion of other water molecules. Water molecules are attracted to each other and group together to form a pattern called ‘icosahedral’. Dissolved organic carbons, known to aquarists as ‘fish waste’, and other toxins get caught in these water cluster formations. This causes water to lose its reactivity which is its ability to participate on a molecular level with other molecules. With this loss of reactivity, the elements/ nutrients that are essential to the aquarium inhabitants’ wellbeing and growth can not be distributed properly. The forces in ECO-Aqualizer return reactivity to aquarium water.


Tests have been performed in the medical community on the cell energizing effects of the far infra-red wavelength. It has been found to promote healing and have a positive effect on sick and diseased animals, humans included. Sound kooky to you? I thought it did too until I did some research on the internet and at the public library. The ECO-Aqualizer website also has numerous links to scientific research and studies involving these properties. I also had many discussions with Nelson Herwig, curator of fishes at the Houston Zoo, about the effects of magnetic flux on water molecules which is a subject that he is extremely well versed on. What I had once considered new age mumbo jumbo actually held scientific relevance.


Besides my job as caretaker of the 4,000 gallon reef ecosystem at the Houston Zoo, I also own an aquarium installation and maintenance company. I installed an ECO-Aqualizer on each of my customers’ tanks. After a week, my customers began to tell me about much less nuisance algae growth, more active fish, greater polyp expansion, and skimmers pulling out darker, smellier foam. Over the long run, I have seen in their tanks more stable pH, increased coralline algae growth, faster coral growth, much less disease and infestation of parasites. I found that I was able to change less water from their aquariums while achieving the same or better water quality than before. I also measured higher light levels in reef tanks with a submersible LUX meter. I spoke to ECO-Aqualizer’s scientific advisor, Sam Gamble, and was told that the magnetic effect that ECO has on water molecules allows light photons to pass through the water easier. It sounded weird to me but my LUX meter did not lie.


I then went to the local fish store where I buy all my livestock and convinced them to get a custom made ECO-Aqualizer for their livestock holding/ quarantine system. This store had been keeping track of their livestock losses for years and had very thorough records of mortality rates of new shipments. Several months later they reported to me that they had a dramatic 70% increase of shipment survival rates and saw a much greater feeding response from new fish. This made sense to me because from what I had learned from Nelson Herwig, ECO-Aqualizer would create smaller water clusters which would help osmoregulation in aquatic animals. Osmoregulation is a biological function of a cell to equalize the concentrations of dissolved substances on either side of the cell membrane. The disruption of this function is what kills most fish that are introduced to a new environment. ECO-Aqualizer had saved this fish store thousands of dollars and hundreds of fish’s’ lives.


In closing, while testing and observations are still being done, please keep an open mind and be on the lookout for more information about this exciting new development. The price of an ECO-Aqualizer compared to nearly all other aquarium equipment is a bargain, especially since it helps other equipment do their jobs better. As aquarists share their experiences with the ECO-Aqualizer, the relevance of this product will become more and more apparent. With what I myself have observed, I am sure that someday ECO-Aqualizer will be a required part of every and any aquarium set-up.

tewa
07-29-2005, 09:15 AM
Ok stephen finally get down to posting pictures.

Firstly let me explain the pond 30000L was a former swimming pool converted to koi pond (doing it in the cheapest way i and a few others could think of). Its ugly, I agree for sure. It has a skimmer which is right next to the showers worse possible position, no air in the pond, a make shift bottom drain. Had a very temporary in pond DIY skimmer put on the opposite end of the shower but the pump packed in three weeks ago. Didn bother to replace and set up again because i am actually moving interstate so and will be taking this setup apart in a few weeks. have had to live without a skimmer in an outside pond. This pond has shade cloth around most of it except for one gap which let some leaves get in, but insaying that very small leaves from a tree next to my pond still get in (pain in the ***). This pond has no settlement chamber or additional fines filtration. If i were to do it again i would probably put a settlement vortex solely for the fine leaves or cut the fibreglass pond and build a proper skimmer which i could stop the leaves then pump back to the showers. I note that its only for fine leaves i know some people read posts too fast and will probably say that i am changing my preaching saying first u say it should be used directly from bottom drain and now u say its better from vortex, so this is a disclaimer. I was a bit naive thinking my shade cloth would stop all the leaves and hoping that not much fine debri gets into the pond.

So here goes

this pic si with bakki shower on lots of ripples very difficult to take a good picture, have great difficulty taking good pictures, don really like the digital camera i have to use takes like 4 seconds to focus and shoot which by then i am moving trying to follow the fish around.

http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/1.JPG

picture of my make shift bottom drain a 4 inch pipe running across the width of the pond
http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/d.JPG

the bakki showers
http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/e.JPG

ok the start of the series of fish pics
http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/f.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/g.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/h.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/h.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/i.JPG

stephen
07-29-2005, 10:02 AM
stephen, i don't believe you can physically see the effects of FIR what you would gain is better growth and koi that are healthier less infections (but that is of course if you quarantine properly), that is also if you are a believer which i don't think you are.

tewa


I am a believer:yes: In high oxygenation, degassing, rapid water turn over thru filtration, & low nitrates. To each his own as to how this is achieved.

Some pics of 1000 plus gallons a minute water turnover 24/7/365. <!-- / message -->

MJJoyce
07-29-2005, 11:12 AM
There has been so much debate of this product on the different boards - I think it boils down to try it if you want. We did (the media - we made our own trays because we are poor) and we feel like we have gotten our money's worth. If you don't feel it is worth the money, don't buy it. If you just want to try the method and not the media, you'll probably still have better water for the effort. There doesn't need to be a cult mentality on either side of the issue. Most everything we buy is sold with some amount of strategic marketing. Buyer beware. Use some common sense. If you're skeptical and can afford maybe 1 box of media, try it on your quarantine. See if you like it there before you spend a pile of money. I must say I feel like there is something to this media, but it is just our gut feeling and it could be the method was what helped our pond, which is not that greatly designed. There really doesn't have to be one "right" answer on this media, does there? I mean, there are so many different factors. These things are being used in the real world of overstocking, funny weather, different climates, different feeding techniques. What happens in a lab may be helpful, but not tell the whole story. Just my opinion. I've enjoyed reading all the debate everywhere, by the way. I can never get enough info (but sometimes I do get enough of an argument). Respectfully, MJ

Koi Story
07-29-2005, 12:39 PM
tewa, here is a link for you. You will find that all water on earth is FIR treated. Maybe FIR is for Free Infrared Radiation?

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Library/Oven/

ks

Koi Story
07-29-2005, 02:16 PM
Why are most plants green? How is light captured by living organisms? Click on photosynthesis. You will find that PS2 cannot use photons of wavelegth longer than 600 nm.

http://web.mit.edu/esgbio/www/chapters.html

tewa, if you make reference to ks as anything different than a person that belongs only to himself do expect a :cool: FIRssion ksbomb.

ks

ShiroMujiGirl
07-29-2005, 04:21 PM
Somjebody wrote this:


Like I have said, some who can afford it, used it and believe in it; some who can't afford it but knew this TT/Bakki Shower technology works - used a different media and believe in it; others who have not tried it or used it, seek not to believe in it - till it is proven through science and technology.


I tested both LR and BH in identical systems. I believe in both. Probably even whole oyster shells or hair curlers would work and could be believed in. The point is: If FIR or some other mysterious quality from the BH improved the water it would have been different from the Lava Rock showered water in the other pond. One filter media, the BH, cost $1600 for the media before shipping. The same amount of lava rock ( the hard black kind) cost less than $40 AND GOT IDENTICAL RESULTS.

JPR
07-29-2005, 08:44 PM
George, the day I find someone deleting and editing my posts is the last day I will post on this board! Show me where----

Here is the fundamental problem with believing in FIR radiation ability to shrink clusters, create 'cages' for toxins and/or create small clusters from large clusters- the greater scientific community says it can't be! So the idea, for the time being anyway, has been relegated to the area of pseudoscience, much like some other homeopathic, alchemistic and chiropractic techniques and instrumentation have been. Some pretty heavy duty biochemists say it ain’t so. And there is a dearth of traditional peer review papers on this subject? Very odd for an idea that has been around for so long? It all makes me skeptical. And when you throw in some ‘inventors’ of this earth shattering discovery- like the guy who talks to water crystals or the one that sells a machine that allows your computer to make this cluster water but also to talk directly to God, you gotta admit it sounds like a crack pot theory! I’m also very skeptical of ads that involve work done by NASA- I think they have their hands full with ‘breaking away foam’ issues right now? ;) Most disturbing, are claims of ceramic thread clothing, curing cancer and skin disorders, and drinking water that will heal you internally- very cruel to the desperate and the elderly. Honestly, in doing some basic Micky mouse research I found statements that actually had me laughing out loud. You do know that several promoters of FIR water , piwater, hex water and structured water have been caught in down right lies about their education, degrees, resume and testimonials right? This does not help an out of left field theories reputation does it? Most powerful in all these presentations are grains of real science and true chemistry mixed in with the outrageous. That is usually indicative of a scam in my experience.
Now let me say something very arrogant. If there is anything to the FIR craze, I will be able to determine it in several of my existing systems. I’m looking for change, any change I can measure and/or document. Now let me say something with complete sincerity- if there is anything positive to say about FIR rays in these observation I will, without hesitation. I believe that is the purpose of science- to go where the evidence leads with no preconceived notions that might otherwise interfere with those observations.
JR

tewa
07-29-2005, 10:58 PM
Hi valr



I think i posted these questions here but cant seem to find the post.

How much energy is required to just change the direction of H - bond which i remember i posted from the science paper from the same site that JR posted, said is enough to bend or even break bonds?

I ask how much energy can a piece of bacteria house emit?

Another question your 1 photon equation is that for 1 molecule of BH?

I read on that same site that saturates or solutes have an effect on clusters like salt, how does the kh, gh, trace elements, minerals, organic stuff effect clusters?

Another question water clusters become smaller in higher temperature normally and clusters are breaking n forming bonds all the time, since this is occuring why can't FIR aid this breaking and bonding that is naturally occuring already, wouldn less energy be needed from FIR photon to aid something that is already naturally happening.

Woudn there already be kinetic energy from moving water at high flow rates also be effecting the h bonds in clusters, the tearing and shearing of these h bonds, could this also reduce the energy needed by an fir photon to break the h bonds?

Ok i know you have said i don't know enough with electrodynamics, so i ask you these questions, to help guide where i can find better evidence.

Guys do you guys remember reading these questions cause i can't find the post.

Valarc
07-29-2005, 11:07 PM
Tewa I could go into more detail about why that theory is wrong... but koi story made the whole discussion completely pointless. I was so focused on the small scale, thinking about how FIR cannot affect bonds and pointing out the flaws in that argument. KS's argument was so much more elegant than mine, and I wish I had thought of it at first. His point is, the sun emits TONS more FIR than anything we could ever create on earth. If FIR was doing anything to water clusters, sunlight would be the single greatest factor in the quality of water in our ponds.

My previous arguments still stand, and FIR is still unable to do squat to water, but I like KS's argument a lot better :D:

tewa
07-29-2005, 11:15 PM
George, the day I find someone deleting and editing my posts is the last day I will post on this board! Show me where----

Here is the fundamental problem with believing in FIR radiation ability to shrink clusters, create 'cages' for toxins and/or create small clusters from large clusters- the greater scientific community says it can't be! So the idea, for the time being anyway, has been relegated to the area of pseudoscience, much like some other homeopathic, alchemistic and chiropractic techniques and instrumentation have been. Some pretty heavy duty biochemists say it ain’t so. And there is a dearth of traditional peer review papers on this subject? Very odd for an idea that has been around for so long? It all makes me skeptical. And when you throw in some ‘inventors’ of this earth shattering discovery- like the guy who talks to water crystals or the one that sells a machine that allows your computer to make this cluster water but also to talk directly to God, you gotta admit it sounds like a crack pot theory! I’m also very skeptical of ads that involve work done by NASA- I think they have their hands full with ‘breaking away foam’ issues right now? ;) Most disturbing, are claims of ceramic thread clothing, curing cancer and skin disorders, and drinking water that will heal you internally- very cruel to the desperate and the elderly. Honestly, in doing some basic Micky mouse research I found statements that actually had me laughing out loud. You do know that several promoters of FIR water , piwater, hex water and structured water have been caught in down right lies about their education, degrees, resume and testimonials right? This does not help an out of left field theories reputation does it? Most powerful in all these presentations are grains of real science and true chemistry mixed in with the outrageous. That is usually indicative of a scam in my experience.
Now let me say something very arrogant. If there is anything to the FIR craze, I will be able to determine it in several of my existing systems. I’m looking for change, any change I can measure and/or document. Now let me say something with complete sincerity- if there is anything positive to say about FIR rays in these observation I will, without hesitation. I believe that is the purpose of science- to go where the evidence leads with no preconceived notions that might otherwise interfere with those observations.
JR


AHHHHH JR

I finally got back to you, i am guessing that your research in FIR is as limited as mine on the internet, and you haven really bothered to read more about electrodynamics and the other physics stuff, nor look up more of the links i have added in greater detail. You have just let valr fight your debate because he knows about physics more than you do. Fair enough.

You say you can measure change with your system, please explain, this is about the 4th or fifth time i am asking. Please tell, there can't be that much more science than what has been posted here already to the changes you are talking about.

I ask the question on how to measure the DOCs that you are so concern about? you already have saturated oxygen level high ORP which you say you can easily rig up to make look good even with cow pie in the water?

How will you quantify these DOCs? Especially when you are taking the crap out of at the settlement chamber. Are you going to pump all the waste to the bakki towers and then measure the DOCs? If so are you gonna follow the recommended rate of flow and the amount of media. with your normal water change

You have yet to answer my questions and the thread was quite conveniently changed to proof of FIR which has taken up all my time. So lets get back to it.

The only way i can think of is if you bring a water sample everyday to a lab to get high performance liquid chromotography to find what DOCs are there and have them calculate for you. Light refractive testing isn't going to be a good test as you change water weekly. This testing has to be done on a daily basis and to be fair needs at least 6 months to a year because that is when the biofilm is probably fully matured and stable (note i am not saying cycled as cycled just means when 0 ammonia, nitrite and levels of nitrate). Then you would have to had data from HPLC of the water you currently have with your current regime and absolute no change of this regime fot the same period of time to be able to plot a graph and rule out the deviations.

Your opinion please.


tewa

ps i don't really think you could say you are able to give scientific results after testing with no convictions because you already think FIR is for crackpots. It isn as if you were sitting on the fence then going yeah lets try it or you know nothing and go yeah lets test it. (not trying to attack you here but still happy that you are testing :) , that is a serious happy)

tewa
07-29-2005, 11:23 PM
Tewa I could go into more detail about why that theory is wrong... but koi story made the whole discussion completely pointless. I was so focused on the small scale, thinking about how FIR cannot affect bonds and pointing out the flaws in that argument. KS's argument was so much more elegant than mine, and I wish I had thought of it at first. His point is, the sun emits TONS more FIR than anything we could ever create on earth. If FIR was doing anything to water clusters, sunlight would be the single greatest factor in the quality of water in our ponds.

My previous arguments still stand, and FIR is still unable to do squat to water, but I like KS's argument a lot better :D:

Common val

please give the details i want to know. KS argument is good but the sund ont shine 24/7, more over most of us have some shade. I do admit though maybe that is why a people have found that if they have a shallow but very long stream they get great effects wtih water, the clusters maybe broken.

IF Fir cant do squat then explain to me why ks argument matters with the sun being the biggest FIR emitter.

Plus ks argument hasn prove that the sun's fir dont break clusters

tewa

junglegeorge12
07-29-2005, 11:26 PM
A response to JR- I understand your skepticism but have checked around a bit about it.

I guess I have not heard the greater science community voice that opinion. I also found a good chunk of articles on the subject done by Navy research labs, different space groups, some of the top of the top of the science research world. Apparently the Navy and other space groups dived into this recently, and are in the process of publishing papers on it. I guess the whole Orion water thing sparked some new interest. The Navy has already changed it's ceramic tile orders for alot of things for something new, I do not know the whole reason why but it does show some new discovery. It is a paper called Ferroelectricity put out by some Navy scientists, it is a scientists peer journal. Volume 12 has a whole chunk of articles from the best research labs in the world on the subject.

I tend to believe the way the DOD and Navy lean over self proclaimed biochemists who got a degree but have no experience that proves they even know how to apply it to this subject (and I am not intending that to mean you, you have expressed openness to the idea, and seem to just be looking for hard facts you can trust)

If you have heard some really respected sources say that, I would like to read their professional opinion. I understand there are hypists and marketers jumping on every oppurtunity out there, that does mean anything to me one way or the other. Folks will do that no matter if the tech is real or not trying to make money. But them most product slammers are just doing so so they can sell something too. I would not look to either of those groups for reliable intel on it. Money and power makes people 'sure' of almost anything they need to be to make money or get power either way......

The chem 1 website guy is just an angry consumer who has some background in biochem, but I have not seen him put up any research, just his own hypothesis and possible case scenarios. He seems just as whacked to me as the infomercial guys, so I passed him by and dug deeper. It is like anything, you can theorize or you can run tests. Most of the time in science history our theories have to be adjusted to explain test results that did not fit into our previous logic, that is how science advances.

I did plug around enough on the DOD website to find out that the same labs that the shower head manufacturer and Momotaro used is also doing different research for the DOD. That speaks to me of credibility, they do not use whackos, spin doctors or unreliable sources to do their research for them. They use established and trusted sources.

Alot of the stuff that worries you I understand and felt the same way about year ago and so I started digging around from time to time. I too ignore the infomercial sites, you cannot trust them. You might have to go back to page ten of the search engine, or more, but there is legit stuff out there. I have emailed the ferroelectricity guys to see if I can get a copy of those articles. Hopefully I will get a response soon, when I do I will let you know.

I read your previous posts JR and you seem like a pretty fair guy who likes real and reliable science, me too, I hope we can talk decently with one another and not get sucked into val's anger problem, I don't want to start off on a bad foot with you and prefer to talk about the science than vent emotions and name call. I suspect you are kind of the same way because I have not seen a personally mean post by you towards anyone yet--- :master: I love these things!

tewa
07-29-2005, 11:38 PM
hey junglegeorge

i love these emoticons too they can make it so much more fun to post with, credit to you stephen for providing a board with so much fun. Just wanna ask stephen so you are running about 90000 us gallons an hour which is around 334000L, what pumps do you use?

tewa

Valarc
07-30-2005, 12:11 AM
Look at it this way... the intensity of FIR from the sun is orders of magnitude greater than that of the bakki house media. If the FIR was doing anything, you could get FAR greater improvements in your water quality by cutting down the branches around your pond, than you could get by using bakki house instead of lava rock. And that wouldn't be very good for your sales pitch would it? Stick to saying "bakki house is better because these guys used it and said it worked great" and leave the pseudoscience mumbo jumbo for the late night infomercials.

Hanyakoi
07-30-2005, 12:12 AM
Somjebody wrote this:


Like I have said, some who can afford it, used it and believe in it; some who can't afford it but knew this TT/Bakki Shower technology works - used a different media and believe in it; others who have not tried it or used it, seek not to believe in it - till it is proven through science and technology.


I tested both LR and BH in identical systems. I believe in both. Probably even whole oyster shells or hair curlers would work and could be believed in. The point is: If FIR or some other mysterious quality from the BH improved the water it would have been different from the Lava Rock showered water in the other pond. One filter media, the BH, cost $1600 for the media before shipping. The same amount of lava rock ( the hard black kind) cost less than $40 AND GOT IDENTICAL RESULTS.

Sorry SMJ, never knew it costed so MUCH in the USA. US$1,600 for a kg or 1 ton? That's indeed a lot of money! Can't blame you guys for not parting with that hard earned dollars till it's proven to show what it claims to do!!!

With ref. to the 1st para, yep... you phrase it much better, I think. Moreover I agreed with you all others helps in bio-media filtrating - and that's why you find NogamiSan throwing his mum's hair curlers and what not into his sub-chambers. Believe it or not? But it's true... and he is one of Japan's famous breeders.

tewa
07-30-2005, 12:56 AM
Look at it this way... the intensity of FIR from the sun is orders of magnitude greater than that of the bakki house media. If the FIR was doing anything, you could get FAR greater improvements in your water quality by cutting down the branches around your pond, than you could get by using bakki house instead of lava rock. And that wouldn't be very good for your sales pitch would it? Stick to saying "bakki house is better because these guys used it and said it worked great" and leave the pseudoscience mumbo jumbo for the late night infomercials.

Valr

lets stick to science, forget about the business and sales pitch stuff and aggression, i have asked very nicely already. While you at it u should probably stop trying to tell me what i can and and cannot post.

Answer my science questions that is all i ask for.

Unless you live on the poles where the sun shine for 24 hours certain times of the year then, you are still gonna get nigght and day.

You haven show your proof of the suns FIR not braking clusters, show me all the scientific evidence that you demand from me please which more often or not u use to attack me with.

tewa

junglegeorge12
07-30-2005, 01:23 AM
I know in a swimming pool the sun makes the chlorine evaporate.

tewa
07-30-2005, 01:37 AM
ok guys this is information found from MIT university, from their search engine

So it s definitely not quack. I think we have forgotten to show the basics of FIR so this is just basic stuff to help those like me understand a little more

http://web.haystack.mit.edu/pcr/spaceweather/webpagephysicsofwaves.html

THE PHYSICS OF WAVES
Waves come in a variety of forms. Yet, all waves follow the laws of physics. Waves reflect, refract, and diffract. Reflection is a wave bouncing off of an obstacle. An echo is an example of a reflection. Radar uses this principle to determine the size characteristics of, or distance to an object. Doppler shift is an example of a reflection of a wave that is different than the original pulse. The reflection is shifted, in frequency, from the original, due to the speed of the object from which it was reflected. An increase in frequency shows an object that is moving toward you. In effect, its speed adds to the speed of the reflection. A decrease in frequency shows an object that is moving away from the observer as a slower speed reflection.
Refraction describes how a wave changes its direction of travel as it moves from one medium to another. Another way that waves refract is when they move in a medium, such as air, that varies in density or temperature.

Diffraction is the process of a wave bending as it travels past the edge of, or even around an obstacle. The fact that you can hear a friend call you from another side of a building is an example of diffraction of sound waves. Sound waves and waves that have longer wavelengths, or lower frequencies, diffract better than high frequency waves.

Light waves do not diffract very much. Yet, white light is composed of all of the colors of the rainbow. The reason that we are able to see all of these colors is that they have different wavelengths. Red waves bend more than orange waves. Orange bends more than yellow, and so on. Violet has the shortest wavelength and as a result it bends the least. When white light travels through a medium at an angle it gets separated into its component colors.

As waves travel between media they may be absorbed or reflected by, or transmitted through the medium that they are entering. Factors affecting the propagation of waves through media depend on both the medium of travel and the type of wave.


WAVES
4 types of wave - Transverse, Longitudinal, Electromagnetic, and Matter
Transverse - waves that travel perpendicular to the direction of motion We often call this snake-like of serpentine motion. Examples of these include the first waves of energy sent out by earthquakes. (primary waves)


Longitudinal - waves that travel parallel to the direction of motion, These waves travel as compressions and rarefactions in the medium that they are traveling in. A compression has a slightly higher than normal density or pressure. A rarefaction has a lower pressure than normal. Examples: sound waves and secondary waves of earthquakes.

Matter waves - particles that show wave like tendencies A particle moving close to the speed of light can diffract or bend along a different path of travel as it moves around the edges of objects. Matter waves also have the ability to interfere with each other. This might be best described as waves that cancel each other out or add together to produce a new wave that is a combination of the two interfering waves.

Electromagnetic waves - waves of energy emitted from any object that is above absolute zero in temperature. These waves are referred to in a variety of ways, such as, light, rays, radiation, photons or energy. Their different forms include radio waves, microwaves, infrared, visible light, ultra-violet, x-rays and gamma rays.



PARTS OF A WAVE
Waves are identified in a variety of ways. Wavelength (l) and frequency (f or n) are the most common methods of discerning between different waves. The amount of energy that a particular wave contains is another often used method.
Frequency is the number of times that a wave repeats itself over in the time span of one second. This frequency is measured in units of “hertz”. One hertz is one repetition per second. Electromagnetic waves can vary in frequency from 1,000,000 (106) times a second to over 1020 times a second. It is for this reason that the prefixes used in the “System International” are applied to describe frequencies.

Tetra (T) 1012 1,000,000,000,000
Giga (G) 109 1,000,000,000
Mega (M) 106 1,000,000
Kilo (k) 103 1,000

Wavelength describes the distance over which a wave begins to repeat itself. It is measured in meters. Again, there is a huge range over which electromagnetic wavelengths vary. The longest of waves are radio waves, at a distance of up to 10,000 meters (6.2 miles). The shortest of waves are Gamma waves. Their wavelengths are as short as 10-10 meters. That is 0.000,000,001 meters in length. Again, System International prefixes are used to show these small numbers.

pico (p) 10-12 0.000 000 000 001
nano (n) 10-9 0.000 000 001
micro (m) 10-6 0.000 001
milli (m) 10-3 0.001
centi (c) 10-2 0.01

Visible light is also measured in a unit called “Angstroms”. (Å) to describe 10-10 meters in length. This unit is not commonly used any more.


PROPERTIES OF WAVES
As a wave travels inside of a medium, such as air, water or a vacuum, it acts in certain ways. The speed of a wave in a medium is the product of its wavelength in that medium divided by its frequency in that medium. (V = l x f ) As the wave enters a different medium some of its energy is transmitted and some is reflected at the boundary of the two media. It is the reflection of the waves that allow us to use such technologies as Doppler radar for weather and in telecommunications. The part of the wave that is transmitted also changes a bit. It’s path of travel shifts depending on whether it is entering a more dense of less dense medium. This phenomenon is called refraction. Transmitted waves may continue to travel through a medium or that medium may absorb them. The result of absorption is that the absorbing particle in the medium gains energy equivalent to the energy that the wave had. This gain in energy could cause the particle to move faster, vibrate quicker, rotate more or give up an electron. The latter will only happen with the absorption of distinct energy levels. A wave that is capable of releasing an electron from an atom or molecule is said to be and “ionizing” wave since the product of the absorption and electron ejection is a molecule or atom that is an ion.

SPEED OF LIGHT
All electromagnetic waves inside a vacuum are traveling at the speed of light. This quantity is a universal constant, 299,792,458 (3 x 108) meters per second or 186,000 miles per second. The average distance from Earth to our Sun is 93,000,000 miles. Light traveling to Earth from the Sun at the speed of light takes about 8.3 minutes to arrive.

THE ELECTROMAGNETIC SPECTRUM
The Electromagnetic spectrum is divided into seven groups. Literature shows that the division between the groups with respect to wavelength and frequency is varied. The types of electromagnetic waves are Gamma rays, X-rays, Ultra-violet, visible light, Infrared, Microwaves, and Radio waves.

http://web.haystack.mit.edu/pcr/spaceweather/radiospectrumpict.gif

ENERGY OF ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVES

IONIZING OR NON-IONIZING
Electromagnetic waves range over a very large spectrum of frequencies and wavelengths. We can also look at them with respect to their energy levels. Higher frequency waves posses more energy. Some types of this energy are harmful to cells. The distinction of whether a wave is harmful or not is its classification as ionizing or non-ionizing. Ionizing waves have enough energy to cause atoms and molecules to become ions. In humans healthy cells that absorb ionizing radiation can mutate. Often these mutations lead to forms of cancer. Gamma rays and x-rays are both ionizing forms of radiation. Ultra-violet radiation is non-ionizing to humans. Yet, it has enough energy to ionize atoms and molecules in our atmosphere. All of the waves from ultra-violet through radio waves are considered to be non-ionizing.
Most people think of the emission of particles during nuclear reactions when the word radiation is mentioned. One definition of the word radiation is the “spontaneous emission of particles from the nucleus of an atom”. These particles are protons (gamma decay), Helium atoms (alpha decay), and electrons (beta decay). The release of this gamma ray and x-ray energy is essential to the need of the conservation of mass in a reaction. These ionizing forms of radiation are very harmful to us.

TYPES OF ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVES

GAMMA RAYS (g)
Emitted from the nuclei of atoms during radioactive decay. Also emitted during high-speed collisions of particles. Gamma rays are ionizing waves. Below is an example of the chemistry of how gamma radiation is emitted.
n0à p+ + e- + g
a neutron decays into a proton and an electron and emits gamma radiation
e- + e+ à 2g
an electron collides with a positron (a positively charged electron) and are
annihilated to produce gamma radiation

Uses: cancer treatment and therapy, sterilization of foods and medical equipment (Gamma radiation kills microbiological organisms.
No lasting radiation remains on the product.)

Sources: cobalt 60, the inner core of the sun,

X-RAYS
Emitted when an electron moves from certain excited states back down to its ground state, or when an electron that is moving very quickly is stopped suddenly. An example of this is cathode ray tube (CRT) monitors. In them a beam of electrons hits a screen that is coated with a phosphorescent material. When this happens some of the energy of the electron transfers to the material and makes the screen glow. The remainder of the energy is radiated in the form of a x-ray photon.
There are two groups of x-rays long wavelength or soft x-rays and shorter wavelength or hard x-rays.

Uses: radiography (x-ray photography) killing cancerous cells (hard x-rays), to examine materials in industry
for defects (i.e.: castings and welds)

Sources: emission by heavy atoms after bombardment by an electron

ULTRAVIOLET
Type of wave above the color Violet. Bees see in ultraviolet. These energetic waves, when incident to human skin, cause the melanoma in our skin to produce more pigment in an effort to protect itself. We call this effect sun tanning.
There are three groups of ultraviolet waves UV A, UV B, and UV C. The “A” type has the longest wavelength and is the least harmful of these three groups. UV B, and UV C are absorbed by DNA in cells. The human eye is also very susceptible to the harmful effects of ultraviolet rays. Snow blindness is an example of an extreme case of damage done by ultraviolet radiation to the eye.
Fortunately, a very small amount of the sun’s ultraviolet energy actually reaches the Earth’s surface.
Uses: ultraviolet waves help the body to produce vitamin D, to kill bacteria on objects, sun tanning

Sources: Ultra hot objects 5000°C or more, Mercury vapor lamps, electric arcs (high current sparks),
emission of a photon of light (UV) when an electron goes through a small drops in energy levels

VISIBLE LIGHT
White light coming from the sun contains every color that we know. A rainbow is an example of white light that has been separated into a continuous spectrum of colors. A prism or diffraction grating, CD-ROM disks, and oil drops, accomplish the same feat.
The names of colors are assigned in the order of their wavelengths. There is actually a range of wavelengths for each color. The definition of a color is often arbitrary and based on an individual’s pleasure. See table 6.2 (K.Y.Kondratiev, “Radiation in the Atmosphere”, Academic Press, 1969)
Uses: communications with fiber optics and lasers (red, green, and blue) light bulbs and gas discharge tubes (fluorescent)

Sources: very hot objects, luminous objects

INFRARED
Infrared radiation is usually thought of, and most easily understood, as heat. Yet, not all infrared energy is heat. Near infrared energy is the one most close to visible light. These waves are not hot and do not warm objects that they hit. Remote controls for electronic devices (TV’s, VCR’s) Use infrared waves as a method of data transfer.
Far infrared energy is heat energy. All objects that have warmth radiate infrared waves. Infrared energy is easily absorbed and re-radiated. Our sun emits very strongly in the infrared range. Rattlesnakes and some other families of snakes can sense, or “see” in infrared. This Trait allows them to sense prey and foes at night and in darkened burrows.
Uses: surveillance by police, fire and military, therapy of muscles, photography with limited light

Sources: Humans 310K, the sun 5730K

MICROWAVES
These are waves are from one millimeter to one decimeter in length. Water molecules absorb microwave radiation. Microwave ovens use this simple principle to heat food. Many stars emit microwave radiation due to the fact that they are young stars, and not warm enough to “burn” yet.
Perhaps the best known use of microwaves is in communications. As a radio wave, a microwave travels at the speed of light. Microwave frequencies used in telecommunications are 6-11,000 MHz for distances up to 400 km. With a series of relay towers, a microwave signal can cross the continental United States in 0.016 seconds. This point to point communication is the reason that we must have so many towers along our road systems. Hills and valleys block the line of sight of some towers. Modern microwave relay towers only need to be placed at 40-50 km intervals to boost the signal. Cell phone services also use relay towers to send information to communications satellites that relay messages back to ground based transfer stations. Just three communications satellites correctly positioned 22,000 miles away from Earth could provide a worldwide telecommunications network.
Microwaves are also a convenient way to transmit energy to be used as a power source. There have been proposals for satellites the convert solar power into microwaves that are beamed down to Earth and converted into electricity.
Uses: communications (point to point) power transmission

Sources: special electric circuits, many stars, microwave ovens

RADIO WAVES
Radio waves have the longest wavelength of all electromagnetic waves. They start at 10 centimeters and extend up to over 100,000 meters in length for one single wave. The actual extent of the length of radio waves is unknown. (The same is true for gamma waves.) Radio waves are the only cosmic waves the reach the surface of the Earth. They are responsible for the noise that we hear on our radios or the snow that we see on television channels on which signals are not broadcast.
Radio waves are divided into smaller groups or bands depending on the frequency. The higher the frequency of a wave the more the need for line of sight transmission and reception. Lower frequency waves allow for over the horizon reception.
Frequency Range Wavelength Range Name(abr.)
30 GHz - 300 GHz 1 cm - 1 mm Extremely High Frequency (EHF)
3 GHz - 30 GHz 10 cm - 1 cm Super High Frequency (SHF)
300 MHz - 3 GHz 1 m - 10 cm Ultra High Frequency (UHF)
30 MHz - 300 MHz 10 m - 1 m Very High Frequency (VHF) (FM Radio)
3 MHz - 30 MHz 100 m - 10 m High Frequency (HF) (TV)
300 kHz - 3 MHz 1 km - 100 m Medium Frequency (MF) (AM Radio)
30 kHz - 300 kHz 10 km - 1 km Low Frequency (LF) (International AM radio)
3 kHz - 30 kHz 100 km - 10 m Very Low Frequency (VLF)
20 Hz - 3 kHz greater than 100 km Extremely Low Frequency (ELF)

Uses: Medium range communications
Sources: transmitters, sparks from brushed (and unsuppressed) motors,

The National Telecommunications and Information Administration works under the guise of the U.S. Department of Commerce to regulate the uses of radio waves in the United States. They have broken these ranges of frequencies down into further smaller groups that are really just a range of frequencies. We adjust the frequency that we receive on our televisions and radios. We also call this a channel.
Letters used to be assigned to a range of frequencies. The use of these designations, L, S, C, X, and K, for a range of frequencies has been discontinued due to the explosion of the use of radio frequencies. They were, quite simply, too large a range of frequencies to use anymore.

SOURCES OF ELECTROMAGNETIC SPECTRA
When an atom releases energy we can “see” that energy. Occasionally, the energy is visible light. Yet in order for the object to produce the light it must “glow” or phosphoresce. Not all objects glow. Yet, all objects give off, or radiate, energy.
I order for an object to radiate energy it must have molecules of atoms that are moving. Atoms that are not moving are said to be at absolute zero (0K or -273°C). This is the coldest that an object can be. If an object has warmth then is radiating energy. The hotter that an object is the stronger and more varied the forms of energy that it radiates are.
Cold objects radiate mostly radio waves. The interstellar dust clouds in the Milky Way galaxy are estimated to be a few degrees above absolute zero. As a body warms to a few hundred degrees above 0K it begins to radiate strongly in the infrared (below red) range. Humans body temperatures are 98.6°F, 37°C, or 319.15k. Some surveillance cameras record images in infrared. Infrared cameras are also used to study stars that are in the beginning stages of formation, or later stages of death. (Kaler; Astronomy 9/2000)
Objects that begin to glow in the visible spectrum are said to be red hot. Red is the longest frequency of light and lowest energy wave that we can detect as visible. Objects begin to be red hot at 1000K. At a few thousand Kelvin bodies produce all of the previous forms of energy plus all visible light and some ultra violet (above violet) radiation. Cool stars, 3500 K produce mostly infrared radiation. Hot stars, 5000 K give off mostly ultra-violet energy. The region of our sun (the photosphere) that produces the light that we see is estimated to be 5730K (10,000 °F). As we know from experience the sun's rays are warm (infrared) but our sun radiates most strongly in the ultra-violet range. Occasionally, during explosive outbursts, it releases x-ray radiation. The temperatures necessary to produce these very energetic waves are upwards of 500,000°C (900,000°F). The sun’s outer atmosphere is capable of temperatures this high. The inner core is estimated to be at 15,000,000 °C (27,000,000°F). At this temperature the most energetic form of electromagnetic radiation are produced. Surprisingly the sun radiates very little Gamma ray energy.

PROTECTION BY THE ATMOSPHERE
Much of the energy from the sun that reaches our atmosphere is absorbed. We are fortunate that our atmosphere is such a good protector for us. All ionizing radiation, gamma rays and x-rays are blocked before they reach the surface. Much of the ultra-violet radiation from the sun is also absorbed. All short wavelengths up to 320 nanometers are absorbed or reflected. The deepest penetrating of these waves is in the UV range. Atmospheric ozone in the ozone layer, 30 km to 80 km above the Earth, is the greatest absorber of ultraviolet radiation, specifically UV C and UV B waves. The importance of this tri-atomic (O3) upper stratospheric gas cannot be stated strongly enough. It protects virtually all life forms here on Earth.

The graph (####) shows penetration depth as a function of wavelength for fat, blood and muscle tissue. These wavelengths are non-ionizing microwaves. Our telecommunications industry works with microwaves between the frequencies of 0.1 to 100 gigahertz. The latest cordless phones transmit and receive on 900 megahertz and 2.4 gigahertz. The higher the frequency a wave is, the more likely it is to travel through a material that is between the transmitter and the receiver. As our atmospheric gasses absorb radiation they become more energetic. They may travel faster, vibrate more or rotate faster. When they are unable to hold onto this energy they release it by giving up an electron and become a positive ion. Occasionally, absorbing atoms and molecules release an electron and a different form of energy. This energy then travels along reflecting and refracting until it is absorbed or travels back into space.

Nitrogen and oxygen gasses as well as molecular oxygen absorb most of the wavelengths up to 200 nm at altitudes between 200 km and 80 km. (Tascione, 6.2) The absorption of this energy is the cause of the Ionosphere. The ionosphere is a region of charged ions (positive) and electrons our atmosphere from 80 km up to 1000 km in altitude.
The solar radiation that is transmitted through our atmosphere and reaches the surface are visible light, infrared and some radio waves.

http://web.haystack.mit.edu/pcr/spaceweather/atmosradiation_ionosphere_altitude.jpg

MikeM
07-30-2005, 06:21 AM
Junglegeorge12: I do not think having a matter studied by the U.S. Department of Defense or Department of Energy (or any other department of the U.S. government for that matter) is a basis to conclude there is anything worth studying. One of our largest domestic industries is the field of "government studies" . What you need is the study report, plus the data and methodology on which it is based. Until those are available, it is in the category of "somebody has been hired to think about it and we may someday learn whether they have a thought".

At this point, the central debate of this thread has become distilled to: Is there objective science to support the claims about FIR. etc. (Answer: None cited thus far) vs. Belief there must be "something" because Bakki & BH users have experienced good results. (Yes, and the "something" is not likely mystical just because not yet scientifically identified.)

JR long ago made the point that he was not challenging the observation of users that they experienced improvement in their koikeeping. He has questioned the hype and pseudo-science being broadcast to explain those results. JR has established the basic challenge: Those who assert a proposition while selling a product have the burden of supporting it. Tossing around mystical thoughts and superficial science skimmed from the internet is proving his point and hurting your credibility. You may better serve your goal by simply acknowledging that you really do not know how it works, just that users have seen improved results.

kingkong
07-30-2005, 08:17 AM
It seems there is a silent revolution taking place in Japan in the effort to replace the use of microwave tech. FIR wave technology is trying to replace it in the fields of healing, preservation, cooking, and drying. It has become the latest craze, the buy word, the buzz word, the ab machine muscle builder of the West. So, if I am going to market a product, I need a buzz word and a good item to sell. One to get people's attention, two, if after they buy it, it performs as promised.

Tewa, there is no reason to suggest you need a FIR booster to grow Biofilm on a substrate. This stuff is the weed of the universe. If conditions are right it grows quickly, freely and in great amounts. It loves to grow. It can't wait to invade the bathed ceramic pieces. Think of it this way. We are worried about trying to grow BF on bio-shower media and the Ship maintenace people still can't figure out how to stop Biofilms from growing. It along with other organisms have been fouling ship's hulls since the first canoe was shoved in a lake . :)

Koi look great today Stephen

tewa
07-30-2005, 09:35 AM
hey kingkong

I agree, i am not suggesting FIR as a bio booster or that bacteria house needs one. Ok not to boast but many acknowledge that BH is one of the best media albeit expensive but when used with showers is one of the best and regular water changes depending on your stocking rate and feeding. It has one of the best structures and when used in wet/dry gives very good filtration results plus oxygenation.

I know everyone is thinking i am trying to sell something here or make my product sound even better ( not saying you are accusing me ), the truth is if the main purpose of this debate was just to promote and increase sales, I for one do not gain absolute distance, plus so many have supported BH and come out even the most sceptic of the science Valr agrees with it (he just don agree with me and whether i am ethical :no: but thats ok), so if selling and promoting was my purpose i could have left quietly. its gotten to the point even JR is testing it, when he pointed out his concern. So in terms of promotion of a great product all has been achieved. I should just go and not waste any more time. It isn easy to continue posting and face that many hostile attacks or negativity and sarcasm (there were a few supporters and thank you for the encouragement), had i not taken the no emotion involved approach and jsut smug at JR's and valr attacks i would probably be on some prozac by now. Not to mention Lukes on koichat as well.

The reason why i stay is because I wanted to understand FIR and what maeda did with bacteria house. I didn know of actions of FIR until recently and when I try to sell the product here in Aus I never even talk about FIR, enhanced metabolism and nutrient uptake and less health problems cause honestly i didn know it. I sold based on the results of how the koi grew, I haven kept koi for long and JR is way more experience then i am, but i knew one thing if water isn great they won't grow, more likely die. Thus my passion for bacteria house. I am trying to understand the side i didn know and as i learn i tried to share it with you guys, its probably more right to say that those who have already tried it don't care how it works but it works great for them. I just wanted to know the something that Mike was talking about. I am a beginner in terms of water structure and the physics of FIR. But the more i read and learn the more i see the relationship. I mean there must have been another reason to why the 101cm sanke reached 101cm. it grew faster than it did in every other year when it went out too mud ponds. Now everyone can agree there are much bigger mud ponds then the 1500ton pond. So it couldn be just the space. I don't know if everyone sees it but wasn it only after switching to bakki showers that momotaro could get really consistent jumbo tosais, tosais of 58 to 60cm. Here in australia that takes 6 years and usually a very large 50 to 100 ton pond. I mean i am a beginner and I am not trying to boast if someone like me can get these results there must be something to the whole system besides lots of holes. And remember here in australia no such thing as blood line no one knows what bloodline their koi are and i mean absolutely no one.

Lava rock has been used for years, many ceramics too with holes, wet/drys have been aroung for twenty years look at JRs setup. So why the difference in result with bacteria house. If the holes were good enough why did maeda try to go through all the R and D to get bacteria house emitting FIR. yes it is the latest craze in japan and you cant trust all the scam artist that are really scammers and just jumping on the wagon. The reason why they all use one reference was probably because that woman discovered the most and proved it and they are using her work for their financial gains.



TEWA

JPR
07-30-2005, 10:51 AM
This stuff is the weed of the universe. If conditions are right it grows quickly, freely and in great amounts. It loves to grow." KK

****** I wish I had said that! And certainly you can expect me to use that line in the future!! ;)

Tewa and other True Believers, this all started when I asked for some scientific paper that explains- HOW THE BH FIR MEDIA WORKS? That's all. What I got was a laundry list of pseudoscience and physics about the sun and stars, magnets and heat induced FIR and IR. I now know more than I ever wanted to know about the stars, water clusters, heat treatments, FIR saunas, microwave rays, invisible and visible rays, long spectrum and short spectrum rays, water chemistry and hydrogen atoms, that there are many gullible and desperate people in the world ( especially in Japan) and that con men have seized on the notion of ‘magic water’ in a rather big way! But I still do not know how BH emits FIR? If you believe that FIR ‘changes’ the structure of water then are we to believe it happens the way the crooks and kooks say it does on those many websites the debunkers put in his hall of shame?
And if we try to find solace in the fact that FIR indeed exists but in reference to heat and solar activity and as a low yield in ceramic and other objects are we then to blindly take the leap to the homeopathic view of water altering powers? There seems to be a large gap missing between the EXISTENCE of FIR and the POWER emitted from ceramic radiation of FIR, to change water chemistry to something that captures and changes DOC into nothingness.

And finally, Tewa, I am skeptical for all the reasons I posted in my response to George. But I’m especially cynical when I hear testimonial from new hobbyists as I have no idea what their previous filtration was or the stage of their ponds development when they made the switch.
You may remember, several years ago now, people stopped buying Audi automobiles because a rash of reports suggested that scores of people were involved in random acceleration accidents with their Audi cars. As the media seized on the story, hundreds of new reports came in. Soon the company was so badly hurt by the reports that huge changes were made and imports were halted to study the problem. After two years of study, only a very few cars had transmission problems? And a broader study showed that random acceleration reports on makes of other cars was only slightly lower than the Audi statistics. To this day, people believe that Audi cars have a tendency to ‘drive on their own’. The real reasons? People think, in a moment of absent mindedness or distraction, that their foot is on the brake when it is actually on the gas. Backing out of a garage with head turned and foot on the gas instead of the brake, accounted for some percentage of accidents? And finally, the opportunist and con man looking for a cash settlement can join the statistics as a victim. As a result, most cars now require you to have a foot on the brake before the transmission can be shifted out of park. Never was a real mechanical problem mind you, but this solution was a smart and non confrontational way to nip it in the bud -by correcting ‘ human error’.
In the koi pond hobby, I will not be surprised if ultimately we find that the FIR explanation is flawed but the benefits of moving from submerged filters to TTs and wet/drys, increasing turn over rates and degassing creates such a different look and performance that the FIR presence will be credited for success for many years to come.
And Tewa, I never said NO water changes. You have once again projected and in doing so, took that comment out of context. I believe my remarks about water changes and management of deteriorated water were directed at Mike Snaden when he was explaining on koi -bito that water changes are only needed when TDS rose to a certain level. In other words, the TDS meter would determine when and if a water change was necessary. This was in response to my suggesting than Maeda does constant water exchange which changes his system from a closed system design to a semi-open system design and that is one way he manages the excess build up of DOC in his water. So some how, I have been put into a box by the ‘True Believers’ in that if I say Maeda has open and semi open designs and that accounts for low DOC I’m told that is not necessary and in fact many do very small water changes, if any. And if I say in passing, that True Believers do not believe in routine or large water changes, I’m burned at the stake again and told they do! Please bring this up at the next True Believers meeting. Thanks. JR

kingkong
07-30-2005, 11:06 AM
Hang in there Tewa. Good. Since ceramics seem to be a good substrate for bio activity , have you had a look in Ausy land for any ceramic manufacturing and development plants? You might have a product or bi-product in your backyard that will work just as well as the BS material.
The one test I am looking forward to getting feed back from is JR's color die interstitial test on the BS media ceramic pieces. I am curiuos to see how far the biofilm penetrates the ceramic noodles. That should show how porous the material needs to be and what size openings in the ceramic can actually house the biofilm. Can it live internally in ceramic or lava's tiny holes or does biofilm need to be exposed to light, organic material, oxygen and moisture bath to live in a healthy community. Lets keep thinking.

sundan
07-30-2005, 11:36 AM
No way stop!!! I have really enjoy this thread so much, please continue. That is what koiphen is all about, to share our thoughts, photos, experience's of koikichi. Is it possiable to get Momotaro research on bacteria house in English?

Get this, I have a flow thru ring tank that gets 72,000 gals well water a day, super clean water. I remove a 9 inch tosai Hosakai asagi from this ring tank and added to my closed system bakki shower pond of 4000 gals. Within 5 months, this asagi is now 19 inches! I may not understand the science of this media clearly, but it works for me.

sundan
07-30-2005, 01:28 PM
Some of the best koi minds all over the world...

America and Canada
Keirin Koi -Mr.Carl Forss-
Address: 4580 Crackersport Road, Allentown, PA 18104
Phone: (610) 395-2572
Fax: (610) 395-0535
Web: http://www.keirinponds.com
Email: carl@keirinponds.com
An agent for selling gBacteria Househ,gMomotaro-koi foodhAnd a dealer for selling gMomotaro koih

America
Genki@Koi -Mr. Kevin Pham-
Address: 3398 Braden Ct. San Jose, California 95148
Phone: (408)859-3754
Fax: (408)239-1018
Web: http://www.genkikoi.com
Email: ktnp@jps.net
An dealer for selling gMomotaro koih

England
Yume Nishikigoi -Mr.Mike Snaden-
Address: 1A Bristol road, Portishead, Bristol BS 20 6PZ, England
Phone: 01275-848427
Fax: 01275-843824
Web: http://www.yumekoi.com
Email: mike@yumekoi.com
An agent for selling gMomotaro koih,gBacteria Househ,gMomotaro-koi foodh

Taiwan
Ming-Hong Koi Center -Mr.Yin-The Chen-
Address: No.44-8,3rd-Section, Taichung Kang Road, Taichung City, Taiwan,R,O,C
Phone: (04) 4632663, 4631712, 4630940
Fax: (04) 4634016
Web: -
Email: minghong@ebtnet.net
An agent for selling gMomotaro koih,gBacteria Househ gMomotaro-koi foodh


Indonesia
MJ Koi Farm -Mr.Michael Cheng-
Address: Jln. Margorejo Indah B 316 Surabaya 60238 Indonesia
Phone: (62-81) 8363323
Fax: (031) 8433035
Web: -
Email: mj_shun_23@hotmail.com
An agent for selling gBacteria HousehAnd a dealer for selling gMomotaro koih

Indonesia
Surya Koi Center -Mr.Fajar Suraya-
Address: JL.Nginden Semolo 90 Surabaya Jatim Indonesia
Phone: 5921102, 5921103
Fax: 5928671
Web: -
Email: -
A dealer for selling gMomotaro koih

Indonesia
SAMURAI KOI Specialized in imported koi -Mr.Kiki Sutarki-
Address: Taman Mutiara DIV No.24 Cibabat Cimahi Bandung 40523. INDONESIA
Phone: (022) 6653360
HP: 0811213180
Fax: (022) 6653360
Web: -
Email: -
A dealer for selling gMomotaro koih

Bali Island
Pt Alamanda Tajandra
Address: Jalan Uluwatu No.37 x Jimbaran Denpasar Bali Indonesia
Phone: 62-361-701890
Fax: 62-361-701884
Web: -
Email: tonytjandra@yahoo.com
An agent for selling gMomotaro-koi foodhand dealer for selling "Momotaro koi"

Malaysia
Kepong Aquarium -Mr.Vincent Wong-
Address: -
Phone: 603-6274-5529
Fax: 603-6275-2458
Web: http://www.kepongkoi.com.my
Email: wswong@kepongkoi.com.my
A dealer for selling gMomotaro koi, Momotaro-koi food, Bacteria Househ

Hong Kong
WAHNAM FISH FARM -Mr.Bryan Lau-
Address: No.7 Man Yuen Chuen, Tai Sang Wai, Yuen Long N.T., Hong Kong
Phone: 852-9801-9966
Fax: 852-2471-2713
Web: -
Email: -
A dealer for selling "Bacteria House" "Koi food" and "Momotaro koi".

Singapore
Max Koi Farm -Mr.Max Ng-
Address: 251, Neo Tiew Crescent Singapore 718835
Phone: 6862-6363
Fax: 6862-6262
Web: http://www.maxkoifarm.com
Email: max@maxkoifarm.com
an Agent of selling "Momotaro koi" "Bacteria House" "Momotaro-koi food"

Australia
TEWA KOIS -Mr.Hong Keng Tee-
Address:
Phone: +618 9474 9004
Fax: +618 9474 9004
HP: 0411 342 887 or for overseas +61 411 342 887
Web: http://www.tewakoi.com
Email: tewa@tewakoi.com
Agent of selling Momotaro koi food, Momotaro bacteria House and all product of Momotaro-koi farm.

Holland
KoiBito BV (Nishikigoi Exporters)
Address: P.O.Box 1022 6235 ZG Ulestraten The Netherlands
Phone: Tel Holland: +31 (0)6 52 57 27 42
Tel Japan: +81 (0)80 30 88 11 48
Fax: -
Web: http://www.koibitobv.com
Email: info@koibitobv.com
Contact: Olav Potuyt
Agent for Momotaro fish

Holland
Wholesale Smulders BV
Address: Burgemeester Visscherstraat 130 6235 EM Ulestraten The Netherlands
Phone: Tel Holland: +31 (0)6 52 57 27 42
Tel Japan: +81 (0)80 30 88 11 48
Fax: +31 (0)43 3509350
Web: http://www.smulders.nl
Email: info@smulders.nl
Contact: Rene Krueter
Agent for Momotaro food, bacteria house, baki shower etc.

Holland
Nishikigoi Import Nederland
Address: Noordenweg 12 2984 AG Ridderkerk
Phone: +31 (0)180 438 411
Fax: +31 (0)180 433 705
Web: http://www.nishikigoinederland.nl
Email: info@nishikigoinederland.nl
Contact: John de Gelder
Dealer for Momotaro food, baki shower, bacteria house and fish

Holland
De Scheper vijver centrum
Address: et Laar 3 5688 HH Oirschot
Phone: +31 (0)499 577980
Fax: +31 (0)499 577981
Web: http://www.descheper.nl
Email: info@descheper.nl
Contact: Giel van Alphen
Dealer for Momotaro fish

Holland
Methorst Koi & Filtertechniek B.V.
Address: Industrieweg 12a 6673 DE Andelst
Phone: +31 (0)488 454411
Fax: +31 (0)488 420393
Web: http://www.methorst-koi.nl
Email: info@methorst-koi.nl
Contact: Gert Methorst
Dealer for Momotaro fish

Holland
Vital Fish
Address: Den Ham 23 2771 WX Boskoop
Phone: 0172 - 211 074
Fax: 0172 - 211 674
Web: http://www.vitalfish.nl
Email: -
Contact: -
Dealer for Momotaro fish

Belgium
Shinto Koi
Address: Bergstraat 6 8720 Wakken Belgium
Phone: 0032-986308041
Fax: -
Web: www.shinto.be (http://www.shinto.be)
Email: info@shinto.be
Contact: -
Dealer for selling Momotaro koi

Danmark
Koi Team Enghavegaard Aps
Address: Mesinggade 4 Mesing 8660 Skanderborg Denmark
Phone: 0045-8657-3205
Fax: 0045-8657-0043
Web: www.team-enghavegaard.dk (http://www.team-enghavegaard.dk)
Email: markussen@team-enghavegaard.dk
Contact: -
Dealer for selling Momotaro koi

Germany

Aqua Logistik Wholsale
Address: Gewerbegebiet Rommersch 17 59510 Lippetal Lippborg Germany
Phone: 0049-252-791940
Fax: 0049-252-7919444
Web: www.aqualogistik.de (http://www.aqualogistik.de)
Email: rordhans@aqualogistik.de
Contact: -
Dealer for selling Momotaro koi

Valarc
07-30-2005, 01:34 PM
I don't care if you're the best koi mind in the universe - if you believe FIR does jack squat to your water, you're stupid (at least when it comes to an understanding of physics). If you like the media, fine... but like it because of its results, not because of a ridiculous marketing buzzword.

poey
07-30-2005, 04:07 PM
hi
just out of interest how much is BHM media in the states?how much are the stainless shower systems with media?in pounds Sterling if poss.
cheers Dave.

kingkong
07-30-2005, 06:03 PM
Could the treatment of liquid waste and organic particles found in the koi ponds, passed through a TT with algae-bacteria biofilms be the magical promising technology ? Perhaps . Have we been giving credit to FIR emiting ceramic growth media when all this time the algae in the algae-bacteria biomass has been screaming "I get no credit"? The exposed substrates used in these shower and trickle systems certainly are perfect hosts for the growth of this complex biosystem community. Was it a ploy to get us thinking about hidden radiation waves the human eye can't even see when all this time the slimy algae was the secret?

JPR
07-30-2005, 06:06 PM
Guess what I got today! lots of it! I have to admit, if a dog owner came in with one of these in hand to the vet hospital in the old days, I would have said- Madam, you need to change this dog's diet! ;)

Here's one for the true believers- how long does BH take to cycle? I mean, if the FIR is altering the chemistry of water and organic matter or 'caging" the waste matter based the other theory of cluster/hex water is at work , wouldn't this in some way effect the cycle time? We'll soon see!
JR

Bill OTMS
07-30-2005, 07:03 PM
As JPR says, we need scientific, control study information. I, for one, would hope there's solid merit. There are aspects and forces in nature we have no clue as to their workings but study and understanding are required. One of my favorites quotes (and I can't remember where I heard it), "All the answers are in nature. You just have to know where to look." I continue to read and research this potential media but I will ask a curious question, if FIR media excels, what waste management and aquaculture companies use it and what is their data and promotions? Debate and discussion are essential to learning. :cool:

tewa
07-30-2005, 10:16 PM
King KOng, Stephen JR

I think you are letting the FIR slip here guys. No one is saying FIR breaks all organics, no one is saying filtration effects of BH are based solely on FIR.

All breaking down of waste is still due to the biofilm and kingkong has kept that in mind.

I have never said FIR is so great and magical that it will break all waste down.

lets focus on what i have tried to show the science of FIR is and what i have read its actions are on water cluster and health

Lets remember what the FIR on momotaro says ok, reduce cluster increase oxygen. The FIR aids the healing of koi and the growth of koi, why because the small water clusters aid absorption of nutrients, small water clusters result in water similar to those in living cells that martin chaplin described. Ok so its growth and health. Actions on biofilm the rays will do the same to the water clusters in the cells thereby ,making them healthier and more efficient that is it. They also say some harmful strains don't like FIR that I don't know enough to comment haven researched bacteria strains and whether they like FIR. To me that last statement roles into the fact that maeda says the right kind of strains are found in BH, this could be due to high oxygen levels solely or maybe FIR has a little part to play along with the big pat of high oxygen levels.

If you really want to do comparison then maybe measure the time it takes for ammonia and nitrite to be converted to zero by a given amount of bacteria house and say lava rock. I would suggest do what mttk does use 1 pond same fish same load, split the shower into halves on each tray one for BH and one for lava rock, then take pieces from the same level tray and do the test. You can then count the bacteria numbers and strains. You can also do your dye test as well. then you can have another pond with solely Bh and another with solely lava rock.

JR your statements are confusing people about FIR, BH because of FIR cannot magically break down everything organic and inorganic ok. Incidently BH (previous versions without FIR) won the award for best sewerage treatment media in the world i think in 2003 or 2002. JR will a shower with lava rock have more or less DOC content than a BH one (your big concern question)? This is incidently another question I really wanted you to answer for me. Momotaro's site says you will see an effect in 3 weeks that is not clear whether they meant the cycle time was three weeks or just the ammonia conversion. Mike has said that a BS will fully cycle in 5 weeks. So lets not try to even say FIR will magically decrease filter cycle time JR. You are probably better off proving bacterial counts for a given amount of media compared to whatever you feel is the next most similar media. I know you are trying to setup little areas of doubts for people which gives you a chance to show that BH and FIR ain't the magic media. I have said it many times BH aint a miracle media, but i find it second to none in a shower with common sense pond maintenance and keeping skills.

tewa

junglegeorge12
07-30-2005, 10:45 PM
Hey tewa how do you suppose the White House knows if there are intruders in the ductwork, and how can they locate, kill, or render them unconscious if the power is out?

The answer is ceramics.

Don't argue with idiots, they are too dumb to know they aren't winning, can't win, and have for many years ignored the fact that they are idiots.

Imagine if you went to Yale, studied the reactor there, got a big phd, and then they sent you to florida to play with squishy stuff instead of doing a real or significant research job, I mean even Penn State didn't hire him, how would you feel? Just let him think he won, he needs the ego boost.

Also tewa to learn more search 'ferroelectric FIR ceramic' and 'ferroelectric ceramic Navy journals' mountains of real research papers right there, also look up a company called Alpha Piezo and call them. Note they were once Honeywell and Honeywell is one of the largest building/security controls and sensor manufacturers in the world.

tewa
07-30-2005, 10:47 PM
Hi JR

Ok lets clear this up maybe it was my misconception, but lets see why they may have been a misconception here on NI, you kept referring to DOC level on bakki shower but never mention the same on lava rock shower. second you only referred to large water changes done by maeda to keep the system going. and this would eventually build up on a closed system.

you wrote in NI in response to ian who neveer asked about bakkis showers

The bakki show is the only wet/dry filter system in the world that claims the waste build up is harmless and even desirable. I remain skeptical about this claim and wait for the science to catch up to the marketing.

Whole point of bakki shower from bottom drain is so waste doesn sit in settlement and gets broken down and filtered. Only way waste build up on any filter system is no water changes. I could only interpret it that way, apologies if i was wrong.


I have commented that it all dependent on your stocking rate, and that no bakki shower dealer or agent will recommend no water change (ie say that it will work great as a closed system). Ok lets get this straight to me open system is a very large water change, closed system is no water changed and semi open system is what everyone in between is that do normal water changes. ie 10% a day is open, 0% a day is closed anywhere in between is semi open.

Maybe there was where the confusion was, was that what you meant. So I have repeated my self many times Bakki shower with common sense regime. You repeated yourself about the closed system and docs on NI, and never once agreed with me so, I assumed that you were disagreeing with me. i remember you even saying that why cant bakki shower people say they got a great filtration system and leave the rest to folk lore.

I say this because the implication originally was that the media would completely solve of organic and inorganic problems. It would 'change' water and completely purify water. But then the rest of the methods were slowing brought out. I felt this was becoming a classic 'bait and switch'. While singing the praises of the magic media and no need to use prefiltration, the owner was encouraged to do regular water changes to disgard dissolved organic content of water. All good suggestions mind you, but hardly matching the hype associated with the magic powers of the media? Can't understand why the marketing people are not just content in saying we have a great wet/dry biofilter for a pond- buy it! We have media that is light and would pack in the extreme and it has huge surface for the bacteria to grow on. And leave the rest to folk lore.

Noone is saying its gonna purify everything in the water nor there are no water changes needed. No one says its a magic media, JR it is your claims that we originally said no water is needed and that it is a magic media that will do everything, plus my explanation of stocking rate and normal water change that you never commented on that led me to assume that you are saying Bakki shower systems need at least ten percent a day just cause momotaro does it for their stocking rate.

I'd like to hear the experiences of many hobbyits on all levels and in all climates before attempting to explain how and why a wet/dry biofilter never needs cleaning and water never needs changing except to support salt conductivity and bicarb systems.

JR even changing water according to tds is still changing water right. Increase in DOCs will still be diluted with water changes done when the hobbyist feels like it or acording to tds levels. Maybe your argument with Mike was that you felt docs will not register on tds. In reality tds will be raised within one or two days so if you were going to do it according to tds it would be quite frequent.

Now having restated all this history, I have yet to see enough feed back on systems that are using Bakki exclusively, stocking normally and not heating in winter. These bits of info will help me mentally, to move the bakki shower out of the class of filters known as wet/dry biofilters.
And the single biggest reason for my skepticism regarding the ‘total bakki experience’ is that this would be the very first system in the entire world that combines mechanical/prefiltration and biological filtration in one stage and says that it is open-ended in that design approach, with no limitations over time/ seasons or stocking level considerations. In other words, it claims to be ‘immortal’ in performance and ‘immune’ to organic waste build up and seasonal disruption.

JR its statements like these that led me to my assumptions, no one in the world says BS would be less effective in cold weather then one in warm weather that is the same with every submerged or orther filtration system. And no one has ever said anything about being immortal to waste build up which i posted many times with common sense keeping skills of feeding and water change. But you continue to put out these statements even when i have said what i said previously.

Ok now that thats all cleared up and that you are agreeing with common sense water regime (not open not close in between depending on your load and feeding) DOCs should not be a problem for the average keeper using bacteria house, then i will no longer bring up the same topic/

tewa

Valarc
07-30-2005, 11:28 PM
Maybe...if...I... say.. it... slowly... you... will... understand...

A.) There are strong sources of FIR all around us everywhere in the world. The freaking SUN is the largest source of FIR the Earth has ever seen. Any material will release FIR, unless it happens to be at absolute zero.

B.) FIR has no chance in hell of breaking up water clusters. I explained this with basic physics, equations even your unschooled mind should be able to understand.

C.) My knowledge of ceramic has NOTHING AT ALL DO TO WITH THE SITUATION. FIR cannot do the things these people claim it can do. The overpriced FIR-emitting water purifiers can't do a **** thing, and neither can a hunk of clay.

D.) Your feeble attempts to use "this goverment office does this" and "this government office does that" are just that - feeble. I asked a long time ago for anyone to produce any work from a real scientific journal supporting any of these claims. No one has succeeded to do so. All you've done is make ridiculous claims. Hey, I heard the CIA was doing research in how people could use psychic powers to figure out what russia was going to do during the cold war - I guess that means telepathy is real. Please buy yourself a clue.

E.) I understand physics - I have a degree in the field and am quite qualified to discuss whether something is physically possibly or not - you have nothing but a whole lot of hot air on the internet.

Your claims are completely out of left field and have no bearing on reality. I bet you are one of those people who watch attentively when they see the "moon landing was faked" specials on fox, and get all excited when the "ghost stories" shows come on the sci-fi channel. There is this little thing called reality in the world - and you are far far from being a part of it.

Valarc
07-30-2005, 11:52 PM
CERAMICS.. HAVE... NOTHING... TO... DO... WITH... THE... CONVERSATION

FIR cannot, nor will it ever, break up water clusters. This is a fundamental physical fact. The only way FIR is going to do anything to water is if you pour in so much that it causes the water to heat up and boil, which it clearly is not doing.

You posted listed of BS articles you obtained directly from the manufacturers of products selling FIR as a miracle cure-all. I explained what a real, peer-reviewed scientific journal article is, and you haven't produced a single one. Tewa produced one that came close, but it was from a questionable journal and over ten years old. If FIR was really capable of doing what they claim it can, and had been known for so long, people in materials research would be ALL OVER IT.

You were installing sensors. Not installing water purification devices. Not researching the properties of the materials. Real scientists don't install things - that is what electricians do. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being an electrician, but it doesn't make you qualified to discuss the scientific merits of some company's dubious claims.

junglegeorge12
07-31-2005, 12:23 AM
Nope, not electricians, electrical engineers doing reseach contracts. And actually I didn't install them, I just told folks I treated with respect (unlike your ignorant butt, incapable of respecting anything but yourself, which is why you will never be invited to the big game), where to install them. I have not posted one info mercial related site. I posted one thing with the shower head on it for the purpose of showing you the name of the lab that did the FIR ratings so you could find them on the DOD and DOE sites, since your constant bs with attacking credibility is so thick. It also has the names of some of the materials used to make FIR ceramics, and I would have thought, being a scientist, you would have had the sense to do a little research on them. But sense does not seem to be your strong suit.

My family's companies do not make dubious claims, that is why we work where we work. You have self admittedly, never studied ceramics but claim you are an expert about what they can or cannot do, and you have never studied FIR but you claim you are an expert on its capabilities, you have never studied ferroelectricity, or piezoelectricity in detail, but think you are an expert. You don't know diddly, in fact you have never even met him. The only thing you know diddly about is where you got your degree, and how to insult and try to discredit others. Your only project has been to work on squishy stuff. I would venture you haven't been at that long, and still have tons to learn. Yet in areas you have not even touched you assume you know it all. That is just plain foolish.

Look up 'ferroelectricity ceramic Navy journal'. Read the first 20 sites and all their listed research papers, and some of them you will have to pay for. After that we can begin an intelligent discussion about the subject, until then you are nowhere close to even being in the ballpark. I never mentioned miracle cures. I mentioned ceramics that can break up water clusters, in fact I know of some that can make your eyeballs pop out with no wires attached. And no, I have never been an electrician. I told you what we did. We helped EMC do it's research. I went to George Mason Univ. for an EE(electrical engineer).

My brother now runs Chill Tech, a controls company, he worked for Johnson Controls for years before starting his own company working on high security government facilities. Ceramics are the things that make all that technology work, even without electricity he can scan a building and tell you if a rat farts in it from anywhere in the world via sattelite, thanks to ceramics. Ceramics have memory. Ceramics can pick up energy from air and turn it into enough power to kill you and boil your eyeballs. Yet you think it can't have enough energy or power to break up water clusters? Wake up silly boy, you are out of your league.

Koi Story
07-31-2005, 12:37 AM
How much energy is required to just change the direction of H - bond which i remember i posted from the science paper from the same site that JR posted, said is enough to bend or even break bonds?I don’t understand this question. What is an H-bond? Bonds have no direction. Bonds cannot bend. Contemporary representations of the atom include the concept of cords and (mem)branes instead of the electron-proton-neutron system. Maybe a cord or a brane can bend but this is an unwarranted speculation. The explanation of this bending would be the field of tensor calculus, a generalization of vector and scalar calculus that is best defined as the field where one uses every Greek letter as both super- and sub-scripts simultaneously.

I ask how much energy can a piece of bacteria house emit?
Answer 1.- If the temperature of the piece is constant it is emitting energy at the same rate at which it is receiving it. See Prévost’s theory of exchanges.

Answer 2.- According to the Stefan-Boltzmann law 1879) the total energy (sum of all wave lengths) radiated per sq. cm per second is proportional to the fourth power of the absolute temperature of the body. To quantify how much energy is radiated in each wave length use Planck’s spectral distribution law.
Note.- If the piece is in contact with a high flow of water the major energy exchange between water and the media will be by conduction (contact), which is a more efficient means of heat transfer. The contribution of radiation to total heat transferred is minimal.
Answer 3. – Consider Quantum Theory’s uncertainty. Let us regard a hydrogen atom with one electron. The electron is now in a high energy state and it can drop to a lower energy
state by means of spontaneous emission of a photon. The wave function describing this situation evolves in time. Measuring the state causes the wave function to collapse. If it collapses to the same higher energy state, after you look away the wave function restarts evolving. Finally, the wave function will have evolved so much that when you measure, the electron will have reached the lower energy state.

Another question your 1 photon equation is that for 1 molecule of BH?
The equation posted by Valarc is about the energy of one photon. The photon is a concept from quantum mechanics. It is not a continuous linear equation, it is a discrete function. Valarc’s explanation is brilliant, and well worth a re reading.
BH is a mixture of different molecules, there is no molecule of BH.

I read on that same site that saturates or solutes have an effect on clusters like salt, how does the kh, gh, trace elements, minerals, organic stuff effect clusters?Taking for granted the existence of “clusters” is begging the question (Petitio principii)
Taking for granted everything written on that site is an appeal to an uncertified authority. Also Known as Fallacious Appeal to Authority, Misuse of Authority, Irrelevant Authority, Questionable Authority, Inappropriate Authority, Ad Verecundiam.

Another question water clusters become smaller in higher temperature normally and clusters are breaking n forming bonds all the time, since this is occuring why can't FIR aid this breaking and bonding that is naturally occuring already, wouldn less energy be needed from FIR photon to aid something that is already naturally happening.
Petitio principii again.
“water clusters become smaller in higher temperature normally and clusters are breaking n forming bonds all the time, since this is occurring” This is not a question it’s an unproved statement.
“Why can't FIR aid this breaking and bonding? Can’t they?
“Wouldn’t less energy be needed from FIR photon to aid something that is already naturally happening.” If something is already happening aid is nor required.

Woudn there already be kinetic energy from moving water at high flow rates also be effecting the h bonds in clusters, the tearing and shearing of these h bonds, could this also reduce the energy needed by an fir photon to break the h bonds?
Petitio principii again. The existence of “h bonds in clusters” is yet to be proved. “The tearing and shearing” of bonds has to be explained.
Also if the bonds are torn and sheared, they are already broken.

Ok i know you have said i don't know enough with electrodynamics, so i ask you these questions, to help guide where i can find better evidence.Again petitio principii. No evidence has been presented so we are looking for any evidence, not better evidence.

Guys do you guys remember reading these questions cause i can't find the post.This thread contains over 90,000 words, too many questions and very little answers.

ks

tewa
07-31-2005, 01:19 AM
How much energy is required to just change the direction of H - bond which i remember i posted from the science paper from the same site that JR posted, said is enough to bend or even break bonds?I don’t understand this question. What is an H-bond? Bonds have no direction. Bonds cannot bend. Contemporary representations of the atom include the concept of cords and (mem)branes instead of the electron-proton-neutron system. Maybe a cord or a brane can bend but this is an unwarranted speculation. The explanation of this bending would be the field of tensor calculus, a generalization of vector and scalar calculus that is best defined as the field where one uses every Greek letter as both super- and sub-scripts simultaneously.

I ask how much energy can a piece of bacteria house emit?
Answer 1.- If the temperature of the piece is constant it is emitting energy at the same rate at which it is receiving it. See Prévost’s theory of exchanges.

Answer 2.- According to the Stefan-Boltzmann law 1879) the total energy (sum of all wave lengths) radiated per sq. cm per second is proportional to the fourth power of the absolute temperature of the body. To quantify how much energy is radiated in each wave length use Planck’s spectral distribution law.
Note.- If the piece is in contact with a high flow of water the major energy exchange between water and the media will be by conduction (contact), which is a more efficient means of heat transfer. The contribution of radiation to total heat transferred is minimal.
Answer 3. – Consider Quantum Theory’s uncertainty. Let us regard a hydrogen atom with one electron. The electron is now in a high energy state and it can drop to a lower energy
state by means of spontaneous emission of a photon. The wave function describing this situation evolves in time. Measuring the state causes the wave function to collapse. If it collapses to the same higher energy state, after you look away the wave function restarts evolving. Finally, the wave function will have evolved so much that when you measure, the electron will have reached the lower energy state.

Another question your 1 photon equation is that for 1 molecule of BH?
The equation posted by Valarc is about the energy of one photon. The photon is a concept from quantum mechanics. It is not a continuous linear equation, it is a discrete function. Valarc’s explanation is brilliant, and well worth a re reading.
BH is a mixture of different molecules, there is no molecule of BH.

I read on that same site that saturates or solutes have an effect on clusters like salt, how does the kh, gh, trace elements, minerals, organic stuff effect clusters?Taking for granted the existence of “clusters” is begging the question (Petitio principii)
Taking for granted everything written on that site is an appeal to an uncertified authority. Also Known as Fallacious Appeal to Authority, Misuse of Authority, Irrelevant Authority, Questionable Authority, Inappropriate Authority, Ad Verecundiam.

Another question water clusters become smaller in higher temperature normally and clusters are breaking n forming bonds all the time, since this is occuring why can't FIR aid this breaking and bonding that is naturally occuring already, wouldn less energy be needed from FIR photon to aid something that is already naturally happening.
Petitio principii again.
“water clusters become smaller in higher temperature normally and clusters are breaking n forming bonds all the time, since this is occurring” This is not a question it’s an unproved statement.
“Why can't FIR aid this breaking and bonding? Can’t they?
“Wouldn’t less energy be needed from FIR photon to aid something that is already naturally happening.” If something is already happening aid is nor required.

Woudn there already be kinetic energy from moving water at high flow rates also be effecting the h bonds in clusters, the tearing and shearing of these h bonds, could this also reduce the energy needed by an fir photon to break the h bonds?
Petitio principii again. The existence of “h bonds in clusters” is yet to be proved. “The tearing and shearing” of bonds has to be explained.
Also if the bonds are torn and sheared, they are already broken.

Ok i know you have said i don't know enough with electrodynamics, so i ask you these questions, to help guide where i can find better evidence.Again petitio principii. No evidence has been presented so we are looking for any evidence, not better evidence.

Guys do you guys remember reading these questions cause i can't find the post.This thread contains over 90,000 words, too many questions and very little answers.

ks


Hi kS

you obvioiusly know alot more physics than me. Where i quoted h bonds bend or break is from martin chaplin a site i found which was then later posted by JR as he asked me to check that site. So i will not argue whether it bends or do not i can only rely on the sources i have found. I have also read it on a few other scientific sites and stuff from MIT search engine.

I agree with you that the amount of energy is dependent on temperature, no arguments there :yes: So the energy is per square centimertre per second of the material. No one knows what the surface area of each piece of bacteria house (how many square centimetres) as each piece is different so one can conclusively say what amount of energy or amount of FIR photons are emitted. we have all seen the FIR graph of a piece of bh with its intensity close to 100%, what can we derive from that graph as to how much energy is emitted ( i don't know enough to interpret that graph except what momotaro says the BH emitted more FIR than the stones of that famous healing spring)

BH is a mixture of molecules, yes so there must be more than one molecule emitting one photon at any given time since there are numerous molecules you could argue not every single molecule emits FIR. When the different ingredients were heated they formed a new structure, now this new structure is the structure that emits photons and each molecule of this structure emits a photon. Thus wouldn it be difficult to just assume that one photon is not enough and that numerous photons aiding the break of clusters is impossible. I may not be able to explain as well as you guys but i feel that it is possible.

KS i couldn understand the authority and appeal bit so i will leave it and move on to discuss the next point.

High temperature causes smaller clusters, by nature and H bonds are broken more. If something is already happening it doesn need help. The vibrational effects of temperature may not always be enough to break a H bond thus my inderstanding would be that an additional force of energy like a photon from a FIR ray would help break or bend these bonds when temperature is not enough. In my lay man terms give temperature a helping hand thereby creating more clusters.

Again to me it made sense that moving water is constantly forming and breaking bonds, I dont think that you can prove that the structure of the cluster may not be weaken at other points besides those that already have their bonds broken. These weaker areas may benefit from an external force such as FIR helping to break even more bonds and thus forming more smaller clusters.

Just my own interpretations, not here to challenge you now KS and your theory, just posting what i think. Along with more evidence that i find :)

tewa

poey
07-31-2005, 04:46 AM
hi
the FIR theory of BHM as no one seems to be able to prove or disprove it happens with BHM,maybe it does maybe it doesn't,i have a open mind.
but heres a few conclusions i have while using the system.
as the only other filtration methods I'd used before showers were all submerged,once i made the change to showers i did notice a huge increase in the activity and appetite of my koi,this was probably due to the increased oxygen content,plus due to the degassing effect,higher turn over,increased filter efficiency,increased water quality due to using this system.
as for organics,the showers on my system are fed water straight from the bottom drains,there is little organics in the showers,so are the organics smashed to docs by the action of the water over the shower media?i would have thought the action of the showers would work like a huge foam fractionater there is little foam on the surface of my pool,my input water tds is 220,the pond runs at 280 so little dissolved organics.i have little nitrate in the system,this could be the outcome of the degassing effect less nitrate produced as the end result?i feel the organics in the showers are dealt with by bacteria process's,the same has been observed in submerged systems to a degree,no waste in jap mat chambers,bioabsorption in bead filters etc.
i run 2000gph through the skimmer line,on this line i have a chamber of static k1 so granted some of the organics are removed when i fluidize the k1 and flush to waste,this takes around 100gals to do and is done daily.
my drains are 3",i pull 3000 gals through each drain so there is no settlement in the drain runs,even so i flush all three drains twice weekly as a matter off course,so my total weekly water change is around 1000gals a week,i feel this is no more than the water changes i would do if i had settlement on the system to maintain the water quality.
could larva rock be used?the only experience i have of using larva rock is in submerged systems and found that even when heavily aerated it as a trapping,tracking media,if it would be the same in a shower system?if people have experienced the same results as using BHM,this disproves the FIR theory anyways,i would have thought with the shape and increased porous
structure of BHM would make it less likely to clog,track,more able to hold a bio film in the flow rates used over the media,you pays your money you takes your choice.
as I've said above these are just my observations of running the system the way i do and in no way meant to prove or disprove anyone theory's in the previous posts.
cheers Dave.
p.s i have no vested interest in bacteria house products,just my thoughts and observations as a hobbyist.

dtbh
07-31-2005, 06:05 AM
I was directed to this forum by a good friend. I have gone thro the 30+ pages of this thread and found the mudslinging amusing. That aside I believe this is an appropriate thread to seek more info regarding the longterm results of BS/BH.

I had voiced my concern (got not-so-friendly remarks by some who are also involved in this thread) in another forum last year as to what happens to the solids in such a set-up when there is no sedimentation chamber with supply direct to the BS/BH at a high turnover rate. I would presume the solids is "pulverised" into solution which led me to another fear of the possibilty of this causing hikkui in the long term. This has become a real fear and I would be more than glad, and for the sake of all of us who are contemplating trying this, if those who have been using this set-up for more than a year now would be so kind as to give us your experience with specific reference to hikkui. The short term effects I will not contend as now I have no doubts, and the science behind them I will leave it to you all to fight it out.

Let me tell you why it has become a real concern. One of our senior koi hobbyist with a 100 ton pond had converted his TTs to this BS/BH setup using 500kg of the BH more than a year ago. He has, like many using this setup, crystal clear water, and good water parameters as tested with meters. After more than a year this friend of mine has informed me that some of his priced kois are developing hikkui. I hope this is just coincidence and your sharing of your experience will be much appreciated.

Thanks, dtbh

tewa
07-31-2005, 07:11 AM
hi dtbh

I have runned showers in one pond or another for over a year and no hikkui.

Question what do you believe hikkui is due to, I have heard so many theories but from all that i have read no one is absolutely sure. JR can you add as well.

tewa

dtbh
07-31-2005, 09:50 AM
hi dtbh

I have runned showers in one pond or another for over a year and no hikkui.

Question what do you believe hikkui is due to, I have heard so many theories but from all that i have read no one is absolutely sure. JR can you add as well.

tewa

Tewa, you are right. There are too many theories and I am not implying that this BS/BH setup is the cause. What I now know is that it can occur even with BS/BH setup.

Incidentally, hikkui tends to occur in older and bigger fish.

JPR
07-31-2005, 12:26 PM
Tewa, I have casually ‘watched’ Hikkui theories come and go in the hobby since the time it was thought to be a ‘hi eating worm’! Later this 'worm' gave way to a theory of skin cancer. After that it was suggested to be a ultra small virus or possibly a rickettsia .Today may breeders believe there is genetic component to it. This theory is reasonable only it does not take into consideration that same blood lines come from same farms ! And I have seen ponds where fish absolutely unrelated, both have hikkui. Oddly, no one has explored the possibility of a dietary component, as far as I know?
And certainly ponds with high nitrates seem to produce more than their fair share of hikkui cases. Same seems to be the case will ponds using very hard water . This would account possibly explain the reason why so many koi with hikkui will show improvement when placed in a good mud pond.
And dth is right, it is normally seen as koi mature and age.

Ponds with high nitrate or nagging nitrite also tend to be ponds with low turnover rate and/or high organic content- is it the water itself or the stress that ‘activates’ the virus/rickettsia/bacteria or the genetic tendency? I don’t know. But I would certainly try and avoid these causes or precursors completely as they almost always, suspiciously seem to be present when Hikkui strikes.

Brad Koikichi
07-31-2005, 02:03 PM
Jr you are on to something here ! A few years ago I experienced a High Nitrate and that is when the Hikui appeared ! When the Nitrate came down it was gone again and then back when the nitrate reared its ugly head again . and then as the filters matured all was well except for the window in the kohaku's head Hi . Thanks for bringing this up . You my friend are a Wealth of Knowledge. During the Hikui many water changes. Terra Pond Clay was added daily for 3 weeks .




Tewa, I have casually ‘watched’ Hikkui theories come and go in the hobby since the time it was thought to be a ‘hi eating worm’! Later this 'worm' gave way to a theory of skin cancer. After that it was suggested to be a ultra small virus or possibly a rickettsia .Today may breeders believe there is genetic component to it. This theory is reasonable only it does not take into consideration that same blood lines come from same farms ! And I have seen ponds where fish absolutely unrelated, both have hikkui. Oddly, no one has explored the possibility of a dietary component, as far as I know?
And certainly ponds with high nitrates seem to produce more than their fair share of hikkui cases. Same seems to be the case will ponds using very hard water . This would account possibly explain the reason why so many koi with hikkui will show improvement when placed in a good mud pond.
And dth is right, it is normally seen as koi mature and age.

Ponds with high nitrate or nagging nitrite also tend to be ponds with low turnover rate and/or high organic content- is it the water itself or the stress that ‘activates’ the virus/rickettsia/bacteria or the genetic tendency? I don’t know. But I would certainly try and avoid these causes or precursors completely as they almost always, suspiciously seem to be present when Hikkui strikes.

JPR
07-31-2005, 02:13 PM
Bakki shower- Bacteria house media

July 31 2005 -

SET UP-
Tickle tower set up ( clear TT used so as to see trickle action) Due to the shape of BH- rod type shape, water tends to be moved outward and a considerable amount of water moves down the walls of the container BH is placed in with little contact with BH itself.
flow rate 160 gallons an hour over 3 cubic ft of BH media . TT capacity is rated for 100 lbs of fish . Test done will have an estimated 35-40 pounds of fish.

PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS

4 inch piece of the media weighs 61 grams - dry weight

After one hour in water, the media weighed 96 grams ( absorption of 34 cc of water).
The difference of 61 grams , and 96 grams = 35 grams
The 34 cc ( ml) x water density is roughly 34.3 grams

However the media which is buoyant when dry, is still slightly buoyant after being immersed in water for one hour , suggesting the media has a capacity to absorb more water.


TESTING FOR ABSORPTION

The media was placed in a dye and left to absorb water for one hour. Clearly, dye is absorbed into the BH. In addition, this BH was placed only half submerged. Still the water was wicked up via a capillary action ( ?) Into the section out of the water. The piece on the left is an example of the interior section of BH used here as a control to demonstrate color change on the dyed pieces.
A piece of the media has also been placed in a very active SUBMERGED bio filter. In two weeks, when a coat of biofilm has be allowed to grow on the media, the dye test will be repeated. A third ‘dye test ‘ will be performed in three weeks, on an additional piece that will have been allowed to develop biofilm in a standard TT cycling experiment.

kingkong
07-31-2005, 04:05 PM
[QUOTE=JPR]Bakki shower- Bacteria house media

July 31 2005 -




PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS

4 inch piece of the media weighs 61 grams - dry weight

After one hour in water, the media weighed 96 grams ( absorption of 34 cc of water).
The difference of 61 grams , and 96 grams = 35 grams
The 34 cc ( ml) x water density is roughly 34.3 grams

However the media which is buoyant when dry, is still slightly buoyant after being immersed in water for one hour , suggesting the media has a capacity to absorb more water.


Interesting work JR- Thanks
Ceramic- Any man made solid produced by the fusion of mineral substances in a kiln. Floats? that is a clue for sure . Ceramics specific gravity is 1.8 to 2.0 fresh water being 1.0 Interesting, lots of air hey? Could this product be a cellular ceramic, an bisque firing ceramic, a grog? My guess is a Ceramic Foam, a open celled structure with a higher than average surface area. It is ideal as a bio Mass support medium. Looks like foam, floats like foam, absorbs water like foam, it's .... Possible porosity 62% to 95%. Spacecraft insulation ceramic foam would be the only thing I can think of to compare it to but I do not have either. :thinking:

JPR
07-31-2005, 04:50 PM
KK, very unusual media. It is very light weight and powder comes off with just a little pressure. But the manufacturer swears it won't erode under the flow it is subjected to. Here's a picture of packing properties---

Stephen , I'm OK with putting it here as I get it?


So here is a mockup of the glass minibakki showers I'm creating for several experiments I have in mind. This set will be used over a 90 gallon tank and I have fry I'm going to add to that system to see if they grow any better than in the pond with only plastic media TTs. I can get a cycle time documented and also get impressions about growth rates.
These will be reinforced better of course for the weight of the media after it is wet but It gives an idea of what the standard see-thru media support trays will all look like. The big round tower ( 4 feet tall) with BH is already running on the 2200 gallon Qtank and 12 big girls are in it right now.
I had several more 3 and 4 footers but they are tied up on the R&R reseach teams cycling experiments.
Besides, 5 gallon breeder tanks are no problem for a former tropical fish/ guppy breeder! I must have two dozen of them! I just remove the bottom frame, knock out the bottom glass and use egg crate as a new floor , put the frame back on, calk it with aquarium cement and we're off to the races! JR

hacnp
07-31-2005, 09:00 PM
This might be of some interest New research (http://www.livescience.com/forcesofnature/041201_water_bonds.html)
Personally I use lava rock in our shower tower, The difference between its performance and that of BH as so far DOCUMENTED does not justify the cost. I would rather send that money on more lava rock shower filtration if I was so inclined to spend the amount required, i.e. pumps and crates and elec. cost. :yes:

tewa
07-31-2005, 10:45 PM
thanks JR

I don't know if you guys have heard of this one or think its logical i was told by another koi keeper that read in a book that hikkui was caused due to an overfeeding of low quality enhancers, mainly spirulina that has begun to degrade this affected the liver, I am not sure whether it weakened or destroyed the liver but someone how resulted in the pigmentation on hi to start to degenerate. The last part I have no clue of how it happens. What do you guys think

tewa

tewa
07-31-2005, 11:01 PM
Hi JR

can i add an observation, this is in nno way arguing with your testing techniques, and frankly the way you have presented the data, thumbs up to you. I want to publicly announce any public hostility shown to you in my posts, I apologise for. I will still continue to bring in FIR related information.

I agree with you that if the spray bar is pushing too much water or too little water you wil not get the media covered with water nicely. and with containers with a straight wall a lot of it just runs down the side. What i recommend is those storage stackable crates that have sloped sides on every face that way if any water does just run off the top tray it will drip down to the actual media on the next tray rather than fall down the sides of the next tray, hope that helps.

http://www.tewakoi.com/Gif%20Files/TewaPond5.JPG

http://www.tewakoi.com/Gif%20Files/TewaPond3.JPG

I have found that for the top tray if you place the media like a pyramid where the top amount of media is narrow and the bottom wide you will get a better flow of water throught the media. Sometimes its difficult for people to judge the numer of holes for the spray bar for different flows.

http://www.tewakoi.com/Gif%20Files/TewaPond4.JPG

This last picture has about 17500L going through that spray bar every hour. 4605 US gallons


tewa

junglegeorge12
07-31-2005, 11:02 PM
I don't like to use spirulina as an enhancer, but never thought about it from that perspective. I prefer rich sources of erythrin and a few other things. (marigold extract, shrimp, etc) I also use a red parrot fish food that works nicely.

tewa
07-31-2005, 11:10 PM
Hey junglegeorge

I have met a few hobbyist that absolutely don't use colour enhancers as well. Shintaro is a great breeder that come to my mind.

I think the problem is with koi food, almost no one knows what the quality of spirulina they are using, there are many different grades and varying prices, obviously the most expensive one is human grade.

After rading KB i was shocked that any spirulina degrades within one month of manufacturing if left in the open air. Imagine the time taken for that food to be sent to US, UK, australia. This is only stopped if nitrogen vacuum is used the way for human food.

So the spirulina in food can be a worry.


tewa

tewa
07-31-2005, 11:43 PM
JR

there is a little test that i would like you to try (and anyone who owns bacteria house), this test i am trying myself at the moment.

if you have any sick fish in a quarantine tank try placing say 10 pieces of bacteria house in an onion bag tie it and place it into the quarantine pond where the sick fish is. It doesn have to be near where the water returns from the filters, anywhere, move this around the next week, and the week after and tell me whether you notice anything.

tewa

junglegeorge12
08-01-2005, 12:28 AM
Don't have any sick fish right now..but if I do I will try it, what are you hoping will happen?

Did you read the article above on the number and strength of hydrogen bonds?

Spirulina things I do not like-

a-It can have one or more of several color pigments in it, so you do not know which colors, if any, you are promoting in the kois pigmentation cells, so you really do not know where each food will take the koi color wise.

b-some spirulina has been stripped of all its nutrients and pigmentation via cleaning and other processes, so you might just be getting a bunch of worthless mush.

c-My koi do not like them nearly as much as they like shrimp or the red parrot food.

kingkong
08-01-2005, 07:50 AM
Digestor reactors with an inert support material such as ceramic, stimulate aerobic micro bacteria activity through aeration. For each ammonia unit that is broken down, 4.3 units of oxygen are used. Without oxygen the Nitrogen cycle can not take place. A high poportion of the biomass (50%) is not strictly attached to the support media (ceramic), but it rather can be held in the interstitial spaces of the media ( we shall see). The ceramic (foam) maybe an ideal porous structural material for the entrapment of beneficial bacteria living as a biomass. Bio reactor tests should shed the light. In closing thanks for the study and my keywords for this BS reactor's superior performance would be the Sun, Oxygen, Interstitial spaces, Algae, and Bugs if it indeed holds up. Looking forward to the findings for sure and thanks for your stimulating mind JR or Sensei. :)

JPR
08-01-2005, 07:59 AM
Morning Tewa! When it comes to spirulina , which has high levels of B carotine and moderate levels of crytoxanthin, echinenone and zeaxanthin, the issue is really potency and dietary balance. Most people don’t realize it, but the algae on pond walls can have a similar distribution of color enhancing nutrient. And koi in crowded poorly oxygenated ponds will loose some ability to process color enhancing food.
The ability to process spirulina into pigment is one of those things that separates nishikigoi from carp. This ability to metabolize food items is not done by one biochemical reaction series nor with one food item. In 1981 two Japanese researchers were able to isolate 10 different carotenoids from a kohaku.
The reason some koi get stained skin is really about the amount of color diet a koi is getting and at what time of year. This is because if in excess, a free form of the pigment is evident in the ground skin producing a yellowed shiro ground. And if fed in excess at a young age, to koi with a thin hi plate, color cells can damaged.
Therefore it is wise to feed seafood items like shrimp, Krill, crab, mackerel and fish oils and certain copepods for their astaxanthin. And plant material like algae ( yeast will do the same), squash, red peppers, marigold and paprika for Lutein, zeaxanthin, leutein, B carotene etc.

And finally, fresh is preferred to dried, and context for this feeding has to be considered. In the end, good genetics needs very little help as it is a ‘machine’ that seeks out the ingredients in almost any balance diet. However , production fish, tateshita and young male fish can definitely be made more appealing with high doses of color food. Is it a ‘mean trick’ to do this as a marketing ploy? Probably not, just like groceries that dye foods, wax veggies and but only color fed salmon for that ‘pink look’. The consumer simply needs to know this.

JR

JPR
08-01-2005, 08:27 AM
KK, there is really a distribution of species depending on how much sun hits any pond media. I have for instance series of white Jmat- like sheets in one section. This is inside. But the upper mat gets some lighting from 12 tubes and 4 metal halide pendents. None direct, but some. That sheet is a covered with a very fine bright green macro algae. The lower mats are pure white to tan in color.
There is also a long standing belief that bright sun light retards nitrifier proliferation. This is why some manufacturers of power outside filters use a dark plastic on the units construction. I have mixed feelings on this as so many filters operate in strong sunlight. Some say this is because the biofilm is growing below the media surface. And others point out that algae will grow ON or OVER biofilm if light is provided- thereby out competing the bacteria on that surface.
Here’s a shot of that mat I mentioned above. JR

JPR
08-01-2005, 08:32 AM
And here is a shot of the lower sheets-

Hanyakoi
08-01-2005, 08:57 AM
I was directed to this forum by a good friend. I have gone thro the 30+ pages of this thread and found the mudslinging amusing. That aside I believe this is an appropriate thread to seek more info regarding the longterm results of BS/BH.

I had voiced my concern (got not-so-friendly remarks by some who are also involved in this thread) in another forum last year as to what happens to the solids in such a set-up when there is no sedimentation chamber with supply direct to the BS/BH at a high turnover rate. I would presume the solids is "pulverised" into solution which led me to another fear of the possibilty of this causing hikkui in the long term. This has become a real fear and I would be more than glad, and for the sake of all of us who are contemplating trying this, if those who have been using this set-up for more than a year now would be so kind as to give us your experience with specific reference to hikkui. The short term effects I will not contend as now I have no doubts, and the science behind them I will leave it to you all to fight it out.

Let me tell you why it has become a real concern. One of our senior koi hobbyist with a 100 ton pond had converted his TTs to this BS/BH setup using 500kg of the BH more than a year ago. He has, like many using this setup, crystal clear water, and good water parameters as tested with meters. After more than a year this friend of mine has informed me that some of his priced kois are developing hikkui. I hope this is just coincidence and your sharing of your experience will be much appreciated.

Thanks, dtbh


dtbh, me started mid 2003 and now mid 2005. 3 years so far. Small pond, lots of koi, 100kg BH but no hikkui yet, which proved your 1 year theory wrong. It might be dued to other reasons no related to BH.

dtbh
08-01-2005, 09:18 AM
Sorry I have to harp on the issue of hikkui. This is a condition I am very interested in simply because there seem to be no cure. If we can get more info about it I hope we can prevent it from happening to our kois.

To recap the factors mentioned that are associated with hikkui :
1. High nitrates
2. Nagging nitrites
3. High organic content
4. Diet
5. Genes?

I would like to believe, in the case mentioned, that the BS/BH would have taken care of the 1st 3 factors above. It is known that there need to be chronic exposure to whatever factors is/are causing it. With these in mind, I personally would not put factor 1 and 2 high on the list, if at all, and am more inclined towards factor 3.

Has anyone studied the histology of this condition? I am sure if we know the histology we can at least for a start know if this is an infectious condition or just a skin reaction etc. Meanwhile we will have to put the causes as idiopathic ie we hobbyists as "idiotic" while the kois are pathethic. LOL

PS Hanyakoi, the one year I mentioned is to mean that we have to give the factors enough time to act since hikkui only occur when there is chronic exposure to whatever factors are involved. It is not a theory.

tewa
08-01-2005, 10:05 AM
i guess the high spirulina theory is just another question. Does anyone see hikkui happening on a good healthy system ie low nitries, nitrates and organics? Any comments guys those who have had hikkui?

tewa

kingkong
08-01-2005, 10:32 AM
KK, there is really a distribution of species depending on how much sun hits any pond media. I have for instance series of white Jmat- like sheets in one section. This is inside. But the upper mat gets some lighting from 12 tubes and 4 metal halide pendents. None direct, but some. That sheet is a covered with a very fine bright green macro algae. The lower mats are pure white to tan in color.
There is also a long standing belief that bright sun light retards nitrifier proliferation. This is why some manufacturers of power outside filters use a dark plastic on the units construction. I have mixed feelings on this as so many filters operate in strong sunlight. Some say this is because the biofilm is growing below the media surface. And others point out that algae will grow ON or OVER biofilm if light is provided- thereby out competing the bacteria on that surface.
Here’s a shot of that mat I mentioned above. JR
I am going to use Periphyton in the Everglades as an example.I am surrounded by this stuff. Per. biomass has been studied and documented fairly often. Per. reactions are seasonal which would be expected. Bacteria abundance in the biomass is positively correlated with algal abundance suggesting an interaction between the two. It is believed by testing that bacteria within the biofilm may rely on algal exudates for an energy source suggesting symbiosis. It grows and loves hot South Florida sunshine, no shade, full burning sun.

tewa
08-01-2005, 10:36 AM
Hi guys

I took some more photos of my pond this morning as the photos i posted the other day were taken on a cloudy day. there was more sunlight today. so here goes, I tried to take a few quick snaps with the showers on before i went out which was a pretty dumb idea!

here goes

http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/1.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/2.JPG

This is chow time at five o clock

http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/3.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/4.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/5.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/6.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/7.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/8.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/9.JPG

I have a sick sanke that originally had a bad mouth infection, whilst treating it in an antiseptic bath it jumped out for a few seconds when i just stopped watching it to go get a drink, the dog decided to take a snap at it and next thign you know i got wounds on both sides of the body, I thought this would heal but next thing i know it has a bad bacterial infection which i tried using the same treatment but is not working at the moment.

i decided to put it in the small tank where i was heating and raising the other three kohaku, i was hoping that the immune system would kick up. i decided to do a little test after all thats been going on here and on the other board. I took a few pieces of bacteria house maybe 9 or 10 tied it up in a little black net and placed in the tank. I first placed it where the water returned from the little trickle tower of BH. this in the middle of the tank just under the trickle tower.

http://www.tewakoi.com/Gif%20Files/exppond1.jpg

I noticed that the koi spent most of its time next to the BH submerged. The opposite end has 4 airstones as well. I thought it might have liked that spot because of the filtered return water from the tower. that made sense. then i decided to move it to the middle of the pond, basically the middle of the right wall when looking at the above photo. This was this morning. went out lunch time it was hanging around the submerged media again. This evening i took a photo when i took the same photos during chow time, it was again next to the media.

http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/10.JPG

The yellow film on the koi skin is friars balsam which i apply to try and seal the wound to help it heal.

This is not trying to prove anything i am just trying to experiment with the FIR properties of BH to find a response i can see. IF anyone has sick koi and BH please try this and let me know. It might just be this koi a coincidental ncidence, and its too early to make a conclusion, this is just an observation test not much science involved i i am going to try move the media in a couple of days and take a another pic.

tewa

junglegeorge12
08-01-2005, 12:18 PM
Hanya-I provided an article for him right off of the DOD website and he did not believe it. Notice the amount of money just in this one project-$40 million, does that sound like 'no real scientists' are researching it, or like just a whacky infomercial???

In a science like this, especially when it involves ceramics technology which is used for national security purposes, they do not nescessarily want everything to become public knowledge, and often just the industry giants involved would like to see certain information suppressed so they can enjoy dominating certain markets. Nothing relaxes the budget like a secure government supply contract! Just because information with certain details is hard to find, does not mean it is scifi hoopla. That's life!

I personally think sometimes we need to just get back to the basics, we keep koi because we enjoy it, it adds a quality of beauty and nature to our life that is relaxing and nurturing. I think if we spend more energy focused on that common link, it makes it much easier for us all to be friends, rather than attacking or trying to undermine and discredit folks with pm's, presumptions, and slanderous talk. Politics is not new and I persoanlly not only have seen nearly every strategy and game due to where I grew up, but am very much fed up with it! Don't you just love keeping koi and you pond?? I know I do!

sundan
08-01-2005, 03:49 PM
Koi-Bito #8

'A Quest for 80 Centimeters Part II with bakki showers' - Mike Snaden of Yume Koi in the UK delivers an interesting and informative follow up to his previous article. The results he's seeing are right on track with his earlier predictions.

can't wait to see this story!

dtbh
08-01-2005, 07:12 PM
Hi dtbh

I thought that this senior ran a turbo cleaner on his setup, i think i read it on the pond visit, was it mr hongs pond?

tewa

Hi tewa

Yes. Is he using a turbo cleaner? I don't know about that. Infections he can take but hikkui can leave one devastated esp if it happens on prized kois.

Hanyakoi said he does not have hikkui problem and I am glad for him. I believe one of the major factors causing hikkui is sludge accumulation the mechanism of which has been described by Izeki in one of the Nichirin mag. I understand hanyakoi does pp fairly regularly at a dosage that can put even our good Doc Conrad to shame :) . The pp has a play at removing sludge. Besides his BS/BH setup, the pp must be one of the reasons why he has little sedimentation in his 1st chamber, and his crystal clear water. In a way hanyakoi is giving us some valuable information. If this postulate on sludge accumulation is right, perhaps pp is one of the solutions.

Good morning.

tewa
08-01-2005, 10:52 PM
i remember wheen readin mr hongs pond he definitely had a turbo cleaner then i don know about now, he also has very large submerge filtration as well, that maybe the area where the sludge is accumulating if it does on his pond. i agree hikkui can devastate a prize koi and i haven heard of any one koi that comes back 100%.

tewa

I took this picture of the sickk sanke this morning

http://www.geocities.com/teehongkeng/a1.JPG

will be trying to move the BH to another position tomorrow

tewa

tewa
08-02-2005, 12:09 AM
Failing which you may try a safe alternative in Rocephin (Ceftriaxone).

Regarding sludge accumulation in Mr Hong's pond, it is very likely. He may have to reconfigure his water channels. The view that there is no sludge with BS/BH setup as suggested by hanyakoi may not be always true then.


On the contrary DTBH i think the Bakki shower has nothing to do with the sludge, I believe that the sludge is from the submerge systems itself and that is due to the way they are designed. Everyone that uses bakki showers solely don't have sludge build up. I am not sure exactly how mr hong's system is hooked up but if water is fed from the submerge system to the shower there is no way that the sludge can be fed to the shower if its a conventional up down flow submerge system.

This is seen from users of both lava rock shower and BH shower, no sludge accumulates from the system when fed via bottom drain or directly from submerege pump (no settlement)

tewa

Hanyakoi
08-02-2005, 12:30 AM
Failing which you may try a safe alternative in Rocephin (Ceftriaxone).

Regarding sludge accumulation in Mr Hong's pond, it is very likely. He may have to reconfigure his water channels. The view that there is no sludge with BS/BH setup as suggested by hanyakoi may not be always true then.


dtbh, you mentioned it only happened to his prized kois BUT I understand it happened to one of his prized koi; unless hikkui disease knows how to pick their partners.

If sludge accumulation is the reason, I doubted it too becos Mr. Hong does regular water change at 10% which amounts to something like 20ton per day.

By keeping such a regimental stance, there should not be much sludge accumulation in his submerged chambered filtration system, right? Moreover he is using 1 ton of BH to drive his pond, thus I would say - not much of sludge would be accumulated in his sub-chambers....

I would attribute it to that particular koi itself - probably it's a genetic problem or other problems as being discussed and brought up by JR & the rest.

For Mr. Hong, I dare to bet it is not due to sludge accumulation problem becos it should be minimal or none with his elaborate set-up.

dtbh
08-02-2005, 12:36 AM
I don't know how his system works. That is why I suggested that he may have to reconfigure the water channels. If he has been supplying water to his BS/BH AFTER the submerge system he may have a problem there. However would you agree that if the supply is from the settlement chamber (like hanyakoi) there should be minimal sludge accumulation?

Will check with him anyway.

dtbh
08-02-2005, 12:40 AM
dtbh, you mentioned it only happened to his prized kois BUT I understand it happened to one of his prized koi; unless hikkui disease knows how to pick their partners.

If sludge accumulation is the reason, I doubted it too becos Mr. Hong does regular water change at 10% which amounts to something like 20ton per day.

By keeping such a regimental stance, there should not be much sludge accumulation in his submerged chambered filtration system, right? Moreover he is using 1 ton of BH to drive his pond, thus I would say - not much of sludge would be accumulated in his sub-chambers....

I would attribute it to that particular koi itself - probably it's a genetic problem or other problems as being discussed and brought up by JR & the rest.

For Mr. Hong, I dare to bet it is not due to sludge accumulation problem becos it should be minimal or none with his elaborate set-up.

Hi hanyakoi, almost all his kois are prized kois. It has happened to some of his gosankes. As to how it has occurred, it is baffling to me as well. :confused:

Hanyakoi
08-02-2005, 12:48 AM
Sorry I have to harp on the issue of hikkui. This is a condition I am very interested in simply because there seem to be no cure. If we can get more info about it I hope we can prevent it from happening to our kois.

To recap the factors mentioned that are associated with hikkui :
1. High nitrates
2. Nagging nitrites
3. High organic content
4. Diet
5. Genes?

I would like to believe, in the case mentioned, that the BS/BH would have taken care of the 1st 3 factors above. It is known that there need to be chronic exposure to whatever factors is/are causing it. With these in mind, I personally would not put factor 1 and 2 high on the list, if at all, and am more inclined towards factor 3.

Has anyone studied the histology of this condition? I am sure if we know the histology we can at least for a start know if this is an infectious condition or just a skin reaction etc. Meanwhile we will have to put the causes as idiopathic ie we hobbyists as "idiotic" while the kois are pathethic. LOL

PS Hanyakoi, the one year I mentioned is to mean that we have to give the factors enough time to act since hikkui only occur when there is chronic exposure to whatever factors are involved. It is not a theory.


1) Hikkui on his koi - was this koi bred from tosai stage till today in his pond?
2) If that particular koi was not bred from tosai stage and was brought into his pond (say at sansai stage), would it be that hikkui was already there on a 'starting stage' that was not noticable at that moment?
3) BH went into his setup (like you mentioned) a year plus ago; was his pond in a deporable condition before the BH set-up? I think so
4) If that being the case, I would say BH helps to improve his pond overall condition from what we observed.
5) I thought he did a 'overhaul' to his whole filtration system when BH was added, so there should be an overall improvement with his filtration system set-up, right?
6) I would factor in (a) gene & (b) diet to be associated to hikkui.

Another thing, dtbh, if sludge accumulation is the main factor - the usage of benotite(sp?) clay would also contribute to sludge accumulation becos of its tedency to stick/accumulate to the media in the chambers - you would be suprised at the amount of clay used by the Americans & the Europeans.

Hanyakoi
08-02-2005, 01:01 AM
I don't know how his system works. That is why I suggested that he may have to reconfigure the water channels. If he has been supplying water to his BS/BH AFTER the submerge system he may have a problem there. However would you agree that if the supply is from the settlement chamber (like hanyakoi) there should be minimal sludge accumulation?

Will check with him anyway.

Nope, dtbh... all these while the water are drawn from the koi pond and flushes back into the koi pond. 3 tsanumi pumps running 24 hours a day driving 100kg of BH. There is only one (2" pipe I think) running to the 1st settlement chamber. In it it's filled with brushes and 1 pump does the flushing once a week and there was minimal sludge accumulation. 2nd & 3rd filled with coral, biorings and media mats. Now only half submerged with water cos the flow wasn't strong from the pond. And I think much of the **** are pulverised by the BH which does the job. That's it, simple isn't it? I changed 10% water once a week, that's all.

dtbh
08-02-2005, 06:07 AM
1) Hikkui on his koi - was this koi bred from tosai stage till today in his pond?
2) If that particular koi was not bred from tosai stage and was brought into his pond (say at sansai stage), would it be that hikkui was already there on a 'starting stage' that was not noticable at that moment?
3) BH went into his setup (like you mentioned) a year plus ago; was his pond in a deporable condition before the BH set-up? I think so
4) If that being the case, I would say BH helps to improve his pond overall condition from what we observed.
5) I thought he did a 'overhaul' to his whole filtration system when BH was added, so there should be an overall improvement with his filtration system set-up, right?
6) I would factor in (a) gene & (b) diet to be associated to hikkui.

Another thing, dtbh, if sludge accumulation is the main factor - the usage of benotite(sp?) clay would also contribute to sludge accumulation becos of its tedency to stick/accumulate to the media in the chambers - you would be suprised at the amount of clay used by the Americans & the Europeans.

Don't know the answers. Anything I say will then be speculation.

Sludge and bentonite deposits are 2 different things with different compositions. I vaguely remember sludge encourages anaerobic activity which apparently releases methane gas. This gas apparently reacts with the kois' pigments to cause hikkui. This is from Mr Izeki in one of his write-ups in Nichirin. Will try to dig up the article to reconfirm his postulate. I will still like to know the underlying histopathology. Anyone in the Klang Valley, Malaysia has a koi with hikkui that he/she would like to sacrifice?

JPR
08-02-2005, 07:48 AM
I’ve been having great fun with my bacteria house suburban sub-division! I guess I figure BEFORE studying ancient Chinese history, hidden Japanese springs, Chi and FIR, NASA research, FIR underwear or the White house security system that I might actually study the media in question? :)

And as many of you know, I contend, rightly or wrongly, that several things are at work here. I agree with Lord Valac that the placebo effect is real, universal and powerful. Secondly, that switching from sub par filtration to a very large, rapidly turning wet/dry system will yield spectacular results. And third ( and the thing I’m setting a test up for now) that mis-direction is involved in most of these true believer’s observations. I contend that degassing, full oxygenation and a larger percentage of water in the filter section is responsible for most observations more than FIR presence.
To explore my theory, I will run two parallel systems. One in a TT fashion and the other submerged. If FIR is emitted from BH there should be no difference in performance or results. IF however, a misdirection is involved, we will see/consider that massive degassing and oxygenation is somehow linked.
Scientists tell us where powerful FIR bombardment has had an effect on molecules, the effect is very short lived ( tiny fractions of a second). If this in someway supports the FIR effect, I will turn water over 6 times and hour.
Stay tuned. JR

JPR
08-02-2005, 07:56 AM
To Hanyakoi-
Hannie, I'm already trying something you will be interested in. As you know I've miniaturized the bakki shower using a series of 5 gallon aquaria. I have four sets of three tiers. One set, circulating in a 90 gallon sump and seeded with live bacteria yesterday, was fed as of this morning, one cup of fish waste and accumulated dead algae ( harvested from the sump on my pond). I will ‘fed’ this system a cup a day for two weeks ( photographed daily) and we can see what happens in a heavily organic burdened system. JR

tewa
08-02-2005, 09:41 AM
I’ve been having great fun with my bacteria house suburban sub-division! I guess I figure BEFORE studying ancient Chinese history, hidden Japanese springs, Chi and FIR, NASA research, FIR underwear or the White house security system that I might actually study the media in question? :)

And as many of you know, I contend, rightly or wrongly, that several things are at work here. I agree with Lord Valac that the placebo effect is real, universal and powerful. Secondly, that switching from sub par filtration to a very large, rapidly turning wet/dry system will yield spectacular results. And third ( and the thing I’m setting a test up for now) that mis-direction is involved in most of these true believer’s observations. I contend that degassing, full oxygenation and a larger percentage of water in the filter section is responsible for most observations more than FIR presence.
To explore my theory, I will run two parallel systems. One in a TT fashion and the other submerged. If FIR is emitted from BH there should be no difference in performance or results. IF however, a misdirection is involved, we will see/consider that massive degassing and oxygenation is somehow linked.
Scientists tell us where powerful FIR bombardment has had an effect on molecules, the effect is very short lived ( tiny fractions of a second). If this in someway supports the FIR effect, I will turn water over 6 times and hour.
Stay tuned. JR


Hi JR

No need for the test i will tell you now that submerge BH will not be anywhere as good as bakki shower BH. Maeda has said it mike has said it max has said it i have said it.

I think you are confusing effects of FIR, I posted a few posts back what are the benefits of FIR, they are healthier koi, faster healing and increase growth rate. In terms of biofilm better function of bacteria, and possibly less numbers of harmful strains. Takeaway the ample oxygen in any system and there will be no comparisons.

we already know that there will be more chances of anaerobic bacteria and the film will have less aerobic bacteria compared to the shower BH.

I would have thought a test with say TT of lava rock cs TTof BH and say submerge j mat or k1 vs submerge BH would be more useful.




tewa

tewa
08-02-2005, 09:45 AM
To Hanyakoi-
Hannie, I'm already trying something you will be interested in. As you know I've miniaturized the bakki shower using a series of 5 gallon aquaria. I have four sets of three tiers. One set, circulating in a 90 gallon sump and seeded with live bacteria yesterday, was fed as of this morning, one cup of fish waste and accumulated dead algae ( harvested from the sump on my pond). I will ‘fed’ this system a cup a day for two weeks ( photographed daily) and we can see what happens in a heavily organic burdened system. JR

Hi JR

Good experiment just out of curiosity amount of media in the shower and estimated weight of fish waste and turnover through this 90 gallon sump :)

Jr could you do the same setup with lava rock or say some of the ceramic u use in your TT just as a control :D:

cheers

tewa

kingkong
08-02-2005, 10:00 AM
Hi Tewa, I thought the premise is, that the FIR ceramic Bakki media alters water molecules among other suggestions. Wouldn't the BM have a more profound affect on the system submerged, apposed to a gentle bath or shower over the media ?

MJJoyce
08-02-2005, 11:01 AM
FIR notwithstanding, if the postulates about the specific organisms that are supported by the BH media are also being tested, might not the organisms that favor a submerged environment be very different than those that grow in the shower environment? Thanks! MJ

Hanyakoi
08-02-2005, 11:01 AM
To Hanyakoi-
Hannie, I'm already trying something you will be interested in. As you know I've miniaturized the bakki shower using a series of 5 gallon aquaria. I have four sets of three tiers. One set, circulating in a 90 gallon sump and seeded with live bacteria yesterday, was fed as of this morning, one cup of fish waste and accumulated dead algae ( harvested from the sump on my pond). I will ‘fed’ this system a cup a day for two weeks ( photographed daily) and we can see what happens in a heavily organic burdened system. JR


Interesting JR... but please provide further information about your above test. Is it that:
(1) you are doing a trial test in a 5 gallon aquarium with no fishes and see how the water reacts when you feed 1 cup of **** a day x 14 days and run these mixed water over a 3 tiers miniaturized bakki shower system?

or are you...

(2) doing a trial test in a 5 gallon aquarium with 4 or 5 goldfishes, feed the water with 1 cup of '****' a day x 14 days, run these mixed water over a 3 tiers miniaturized bakki shower system and see how the goldfishes react to the overwhelming ****** water and see how fast the goldfishes die?

or are you...

(3) doing a trial test of which this is the initial of 4 tests coming along the way (becos you mentioned 4 sets of 3 tiers mini bakki shower system) and you are feeding an empty aquarium with 1cup x 14days of ****** water and see how the BH reacts to it?


JR, would be interesting if you could do 1 more test with your seeded BH.

Here is how you should do it, JR.
(a) Use your normal 5 gallon aquarium or if you have a 10 gallon one, should be better.

(b) Fill it with water, put in 5 to 9 goldfishes (up to you, sizes that fits a 5 gallon or 10 gallon aquarium). Set up your 3 tiers mini bakki shower system over this aquarium and use a aquarium pump to drive water from the aquarium onto the seeded BH.

(c) Add no other media and you don't have to do anymore water change till the 1st 1 or 2 goldfishes die; just top up to the marked water level (on the aquarium) if the water evaporate.

(d) Normal feeding, 3-4 times a day as much as these 5 or 9 goldfishes could eat. Test for yourself and see how long these super sensitive goldfishes will last in this aquarium. These goldfishes will eat, **** and live in the same water day in day out. In a normal mediaed environment (ie with bioring, coral, media mats, charcoal, etc), these goldfishes will die within a month if you don't do any water change, just like your koi pond (if you don't do the normal daily 10% or weekly 10% water change) and these normal media (ie the biorings, coral, media mats, charcoal, etc) would not be able to 'coup' with it. The cotton wool, media mat will be very, very dirty becos of their eat & **** 'mentality' and you have to do cotton wool or media mat cleaning almost every few days or else these cotton wools or media mat will be clogged with the goldfishes **** that water wouldn't be able to pass through.

(e) With no water change other than topping up for evaporation, JR please observe how long these goldfishes will last in a 5 or 10 gallon aquarium that is fed only with a mini 3 tiers bakki shower. And I think 2 - 3 kg of BH should be enough to keep them alive for a long, long time.... probably more than 6 months without water change!

So now, JR... you have fully used up your 4 sets of 3 tiers bakki shower system. Interesting? I bet it is... cheers :yes:

tewa
08-02-2005, 11:01 AM
Hi Tewa, I thought the premise is, that the FIR ceramic Bakki media alters water molecules among other suggestions. Wouldn't the BM have a more profound affect on the system submerged, apposed to a gentle bath or shower over the media ?

Hi KK if you were aiming to see a more pronounce effect of the FIR for its healing properties then yes using it submerged like i have posted with my sick koi is what i would feel is better. Allowing the koi to come as close contact to the FIR source. I think a lot of people have misunderstood this debate of FIR, from the point whether they existed or not to what they do. Now a lot of people seem to think that we have marketed FIR as the major component of why the filter work. that is not true the we mainly debated whether FIR could be emitted from BH and if it did we were debating that it can break water clusters down. if you have read all the other sites selling FIR stuff and FIR saunas, the main use is to help healing and maintain health this is exactly the same case for BH. and the fact that FIR aids absorption of nutrients and detoxification. But if you were trying to measure filter efficiency then being submerge would definitely not be as efficient as the shower. The major role of FIR is not to increase filter efficiency

JR seems to think that FIR is going to increase the filtration effects of the biofilm, this will happen to a certain extent as the water clusters of the bacteria in the biofilm are smaller this aids them in functioning more efficiently, but the key point is still the ample oxygenation in a wetdry that allows for greater numbers of bacteria especially aerobic bacteria as oppose to the submerge.

BH is a great media in terms of structure especially when use in a shower. We musn forget what is the purpose of FIR do reduce water clusters, allow more dissolve oxygen which is healthier for the koi, this would lead to increase absorption of nutrient for the koi and also higher metabolism and more efficient waste removal from the cells of the koi. This is done regardless of whether in submerge or shower. Which would be more efficient? the same amount of media emitting the same amount of FIR submerge or the same media emitting FIR with even more oxygen from a shower. Which biofilm would perform better submerge with FIR or shower with FIR. thus measuring filter efficieny does not show the effects of FIR. Koi growth and health.

IF I was really trying to see the effect of FIR than it should be a comparison of two submerge filters. Which media results in better appetite and ultimately koi growth. Since both media are submerge then the biofilm are exposed to the same levels of oxygen. Different medias have different surface area, and even I know don't know the rough surface area of a given piece of bacteria house as every piece is different, and even if you went by weight the hole structure is random and different in every piece. So to me you could only measure it by the recommended amount of food fed the media can handle for eg 50L of k1 does 250g of food with settlement, then for BH 30kg would handle 250g of food with settlement. Then from there measure the growth rates. Then you could see whether the effects of smaller water clusters lead to better health and growth rates.

your comments KK?

tewa

Hanyakoi
08-02-2005, 11:23 AM
Originally Posted by JPR
To Hanyakoi-
Hannie, I'm already trying something you will be interested in. As you know I've miniaturized the bakki shower using a series of 5 gallon aquaria. I have four sets of three tiers. One set, circulating in a 90 gallon sump and seeded with live bacteria yesterday, was fed as of this morning, one cup of fish waste and accumulated dead algae ( harvested from the sump on my pond). I will ‘fed’ this system a cup a day for two weeks ( photographed daily) and we can see what happens in a heavily organic burdened system. JR


Sorry JR, I think I read your post wrongly... what you meant is you are using a 5 gallon aquarium as a single tier and you have 4 sets of 3-tiered aquarium as mini bakki shower system for your experiment. OK n thanks but try one for what I posted. ie no water change. Cheers

sundan
08-02-2005, 11:28 AM
Tewa,
My Bh looks really black compare to other photos I have seen of others BH. Does Momotaro BH look like this? I am seeing good results of water and koi. Been using bakki shower a year now. Todays photo of koi and BH. These koi were tosai last year, all are around 15 inches to 20 inches now. Just remember I have tropical weather all year around in Miami area.

tewa
08-02-2005, 11:31 AM
To Hanyakoi-
Hannie, I'm already trying something you will be interested in. As you know I've miniaturized the bakki shower using a series of 5 gallon aquaria. I have four sets of three tiers. One set, circulating in a 90 gallon sump and seeded with live bacteria yesterday, was fed as of this morning, one cup of fish waste and accumulated dead algae ( harvested from the sump on my pond). I will ‘fed’ this system a cup a day for two weeks ( photographed daily) and we can see what happens in a heavily organic burdened system. JR


JR

I am glad that i wasn the only one concern with this experiment this is what i have calculated

1 x 5 gallon aquaria container for BH media is = 19L

10kg of BH is 34L so 19kg is equivalent to 5.6kgof BH

You have three of these ie 18kg of BH.

Now i am curious and worried at the same time when you say adding a cup full of waste how much waste is that really? Is that a 250ml cup, where half of the liquid is solid waste, or where 90% of the mixture is solid waste. Please give more details.

I assume you will be running a control pond for this test. ie another same setup with different media?

Could you tell us what you are looking for in this experiment?

It is obvious that the biofilm would not have grown in one day, secondly it is also very clear there is definitely not enough media (with a fully matured film) to deal with that amount of waste per day and now we are doing the experiment with no biofilm on the media at all and not even allowing the film to deal with an existing dose of waste but adding it on a daily basis.

I am trying to guess at the possible results you are looking to measure visual clarity of water in comparison to another control pond. Maybe you are trying to see whether FIR will break down all the organics even without a biofilm.

Hi guys can anyone see what else JR could be looking at? KK, koi story?

tewa

tewa
08-02-2005, 11:37 AM
Tewa,
My Bh looks really black compare to other photos I have seen of others BH. Does Momotaro BH look like this? I am seeing good results of water and koi. Been using bakki shower a year now. Todays photo of koi and BH. These koi were tosai last year, all are around 15 inches to 20 inches now. Just remember I have tropical weather all year around in Miami area.


hi sundan

great looking koi there. To be absolutely honest the ones i have seen at momotaro are a dark chocolate brown, not really black. I have seen in sentul koi park in malaysia BH that is also very dark almost like yours i am wondering whether it is the tropical weather. Is your shower covered with shade cloth, pond liner or poly carbonate?

The one in sentuls werent covered with anything.

tewa

sundan
08-02-2005, 11:43 AM
Bakki shower is shaded with 95% shade cloth so no direct sun.

tewa
08-02-2005, 11:45 AM
hi sundan

have you tried taking pieces of BH fom say the very bottom of the tray and say in the middle region and is it the same colour

tewa

sundan
08-02-2005, 11:53 AM
BH is only black at tops of trays. Remove some BH and color is a tan color.

kingkong
08-02-2005, 12:06 PM
[QUOTE=tewa]Hi KK if you were aiming to see a more pronounce effect of the FIR for its healing properties then yes using it submerged like i have posted with my sick koi is what i would feel is better. Allowing the koi to come as close contact to the FIR source. I think a lot of people have misunderstood this debate of FIR, from the point whether they existed or not to what they do. Now a lot of people seem to think that we have marketed FIR as the major component of why the filter work. that is not true the we mainly debated whether FIR could be emitted from BH and if it did we were debating that it can break water clusters down. if you have read all the other sites selling FIR stuff and FIR saunas, the main use is to help healing and maintain health this is exactly the same case for BH. and the fact that FIR aids absorption of nutrients and detoxification. But if you were trying to measure filter efficiency then being submerge would definitely not be as efficient as the shower. The major role of FIR is not to increase filter efficiency

JR seems to think that FIR is going to increase the filtration effects of the biofilm, this will happen to a certain extent as the water clusters of the bacteria in the biofilm are smaller this aids them in functioning more efficiently, but the key point is still the ample oxygenation in a wetdry that allows for greater numbers of bacteria especially aerobic bacteria as oppose to the submerge.

BH is a great media in terms of structure especially when use in a shower. We musn forget what is the purpose of FIR do reduce water clusters, allow more dissolve oxygen which is healthier for the koi, this would lead to increase absorption of nutrient for the koi and also higher metabolism and more efficient waste removal from the cells of the koi. This is done regardless of whether in submerge or shower. Which would be more efficient? the same amount of media emitting the same amount of FIR submerge or the same media emitting FIR with even more oxygen from a shower. Which biofilm would perform better submerge with FIR or shower with FIR. thus measuring filter efficieny does not show the effects of FIR. Koi growth and health.

IF I was really trying to see the effect of FIR than it should be a comparison of two submerge filters. Which media results in better appetite and ultimately koi growth. Since both media are submerge then the biofilm are exposed to the same levels of oxygen. Different medias have different surface area, and even I know don't know the rough surface area of a given piece of bacteria house as every piece is different, and even if you went by weight the hole structure is random and different in every piece. So to me you could only measure it by the recommended amount of food fed the media can handle for eg 50L of k1 does 250g of food with settlement, then for BH 30kg would handle 250g of food with settlement. Then from there measure the growth rates. Then you could see whether the effects of smaller water clusters lead to better health and growth rates.

your comments KK?

Tewa, Poor JR, he is going to work himself to sillyness with all our suggestions. If the FIR is acting just as a catalyst in these normal bacteria bio functions, then one would have to neutralize a BS ceramic foam grouping of FIR and test that and compare it to the over the counter as you buy it BS, in the same exact environments. How would you neutralize or de-energize the BS media? Put it in a dark room until it burns out?

tewa
08-02-2005, 12:28 PM
Tewa, Poor JR, he is going to work himself to sillyness with all our suggestions. If the FIR is acting just as a catalyst in these normal bacteria bio functions, then one would have to neutralize a BS ceramic foam litter of FIR and test that and compare it to the over the counter as you buy it BS, in the same exact environments. How would you neutralize or de-energize the BS madia. Put it in a dark room until it burns out?[/QUOTE]

HI KK

That is exactly what MTTk did previous versions of BH did not emit FIR, in fact the version that won best filtration media in the world in germany didn emit FIR, but had the structure of BH.

The non emitting FIR BH were tested as one of the forty five different medias in the three test ponds

http://www.tewakoi.com/Gif%20Files/BakkiShower3.gif

this picture just shows the different medias tested at mttks own ponds for bacterial count, different strains and time taken to reduce a given ammnia load.

These different medias were also tested on ten of momotaros ponds and tosais to see their effects on koi and visual observation on the amount of waste.

Thus to me it is quite difficult for a hobbyist to be able to conduct proper test, these different medias were also tested for their ability to emit FIR. When you are testing growth rates you also need to have koi from the same spawn at very similar if not same lengths at the beginning of the experiment.

tewa

tewa
08-02-2005, 12:34 PM
BH is only black at tops of trays. Remove some BH and color is a tan color.

I can only assume that the dark colour is due to algae from the UV light. Try putting pond liner on the sides of the bakki shower held by some clips on the stainless steel, you should see the difference in colour in a matter of 2 to 3 weeks. try it its fun to watch i was amazed.

tewa

tewa
08-02-2005, 12:37 PM
Hi KK

I didn really answer your quesiton in the last post. The answer is no you cannot deenergize BH as it will always emit FIR in its stable state, thus the closest thing we can use to compare is lava rock, though its structure is not as porous. I am not sure whether lava rock emits FIR or not.

tewa

tewa
08-02-2005, 12:43 PM
hi guys

what is the time over in US now, here its 12.38am. Is it bed time for US folks? I am just wondering cos JR hasn answered my question as to the purpose of the test with lots of organics.

Is JR trying to show that any reduction in ammonia would be due to heteretrophs growing quickly and consuming the ammonia rather than the nitrifiers. Especially since heteretrophs love the organic waste? Maybe he is trying to show that trickle towers cannot cycle like the way roddy makes them?

tewa

dtbh
08-02-2005, 07:21 PM
Did any of you measure the DO at various parts of the pond pre- and post-usage of the BS/BH or TT set-up? I would like to know the change and the contribution of oxygenation to the improvement of well-being of kois after using BS/BH.

Thanks.

L5Vegan
08-02-2005, 07:35 PM
Hi KK

I didn really answer your quesiton in the last post. The answer is no you cannot deenergize BH as it will always emit FIR in its stable state, thus the closest thing we can use to compare is lava rock, though its structure is not as porous. I am not sure whether lava rock emits FIR or not.

tewa

Lava rock most definitely emits FIR, and I can prove it. :yes: :rolleyes:

How, You ask. It's a little game of connect the dots.
We start with what we know to be true about FIR. The only thing that anyone seems to be able to agree on is that the result of FIR is heat.
Next we need to compare the result of passing identical amounts of water through identical amounts of the two medias in matching systems.
Then we compare the temperature of the water to see which media is emitting the most FIR. :yes: :confused:
Luckily for us, SMG did just that last summer and has shared her findings.
Check KoiBito in the "Bakki Tower" thread if my Data thieving abilities are in question. :)
Lets start on 5/19/04, the respective temperatures are Bacteria House filtered tank 74.7F, and Lava rock filtered tank 74.4F. Could it be that the BH is giving off a little more FIR? Let's fast forward through the next few weeks and see.
Date, BH temp, LR temp
5/21/04, 76.4F, 76.4F
5/23/04, 76.1, 76.1
5/24/04, 77, 77
5/26/04, 75.4, 75.4
5/28/04, 78, 78
5/29/04, 79, 79
5/31/04, 78.8, 78.8
6/04/04, 77.8, 77.8

From these results we can conclude that the Bacteria House and Lava Rock are giving off nearly identical amounts of FIR.

So there you have it. Lava Rock must be giving off massive quantities of FIR. The only other explanation is just unthinkable. :no: :( :mad: :D:
Dan

junglegeorge12
08-02-2005, 08:33 PM
That is an irrelevant test.

JPR
08-02-2005, 08:58 PM
8/02/05 general observations:

The first 4 foot tall tower which was set up on Sunday July 31 is now two days old. The upper layer of media is getting a light mint green cast to the formally pristine white surface. The beginning of algae growth.
a 'slight' odor can be detected rising from the top of the tower. Degassing into the humid air of the indoor room. Pictures tomorrow. This is the type of cylinder I'm using in this experiment. JR

junglegeorge12
08-02-2005, 09:36 PM
Any changes or studies started on the fish behaviour yet JR?

L5Vegan
08-02-2005, 11:19 PM
10kg of BH is 34L
Thanks Tewa,
I've been wondering about the weight to volume conversion.

I'm getting 10kg equals about 1.2 cubic feet. :thinking: (Someone please let me know if i messed up) :yes: :(

ShiroMujiGirl
08-02-2005, 11:51 PM
Those who were wondering about the temp, o2 levels, ect. in my BH vs LR experiment might check out the ORP readings on the Koi-Bito Bakki Tower thread also.

Tewa, you know the 20 koi I added to the experiment after 6 months? They were full blood siblings of approx the same size, Kohakus and Yamabukis. They continued to grow at the same rate in both tanks.

JPR
08-03-2005, 07:47 AM
George, I have five different setups ( some in sets of two) going or about to go. The earliest one started on July 31 and the second ones on Aug 1. This weekend two more will be started. In all experiments and demonstrations I'm interested in only the nature of the media. Tewa would like to do the standard set up and running of the entire concept- media + shower design= bigger fish. I'm not really interested in that, at least not initially. I'm interested in 'knowing' the media.
These tests, experiments and demos will verify:
1) normal cycling characteristics.
2) the porosity of media after biofilm coating.
3) the influence of location/design and oxygen levels on media performance.
4) growth rates of a single spawn in TT environments Vs submerged.
5) the issues of biofouling.
6) the ' mystery' of organic management when using this specific media ( not shower influence- it will be factored out and then reapplied).

Now obviously, many of these experiments will allow for certain conclusions to be drawn regarding the :
a) the presence and influence of low levels of FIR emitted from ceramics ( as opposed to volcanic media, granite, zeolite etc.
b) the isolation of the media itself and its influence , if any, on organics in circulation. Again through FIR influence or mechanical action.
c) growth originating from the TT design or the media itself. Submerged conditions vs TT conditions.

As you can imagine, since these experiments started, I’ve gotten Emails from all camps and from many countries. That unscientific and unsolicited polling is a study in itself. Many theories about media, performance, lack of performance, growth issues and opinions regarding why some fish grew and some didn’t. For all who have given me their experience and thoughts- thanks!

JR

JPR
08-03-2005, 07:52 AM
And George to answer your question- the koi have just been moved so they are a little tense , at least for the last two days. They are eating surface pellets with caution and appetites are slightly less at the moment for these reasons. In this setting, and with this stocking rate, water usually deteriorates in a week. So this will be the first opportunity, I suspect, to make statements about water quality and fish's feeding habits.

JR

JPR
08-03-2005, 08:12 AM
Tewa, please don't think I'm ignoring all your questions! Your nervous energy and concerns about whether I will do my 'testing' properly are not well founded. Tewa, my masters is in animal behavior, my young career was running a testing lab. I'll be OK , promise.

Max?! These's a blast from the past!

Maeda has filled the entire under the decking run which formally housed Jmat with BH. The statement that it doesn’t work as well, is THE point and reason I’m investigating it! The purpose of my tests , like all testing, is to isolate every phase of performance so that simple pieces of a puzzle can be extracted one at a time. Running side by side demos is not going to give us those bits of information. In the end, I do not have a full lab, spectrographs and PhDs at my disposal. But I will get some pretty neat observations and basic measurements. Stay tuned. JR

meanwhile to keep you from developing a serious ‘facial tick’ here are some things to think about:

- TTs and wet/drys all will increase oxygen levels and thereby increase ORP readings
- TTs and wet/drys will all improve growth rates due to higher oxygen levels improving protein
Synthesis
- TTs will degas dense water
- Wet/drys will trap POC
- all objects emit FIR. Look at the spectro readings on granite and ceramic for instance.
- The Japanese, Korean and Chinese culture is DEEPLY involved with Chi energy and FIR
- Western scientists as a majority, reject the claims of the power of passive FIR radition. Those
That believe that water molecules can be modified by FIR acknowledge that it is a
Momentary effect.
- koi grown 365 days a year get larger than seasonal koi. This catches up in both groups over
Several seasons.
- modern genetics should not be confused with powers in a filter system.

junglegeorge12
08-03-2005, 10:52 AM
OK, but not really sure if that will give any really solid conclusions about FIR.

I would like to see some studies on breeding habits and activity, the average depths they hang out at, feed rates, growth rates, healthiness issues compared to other filters, etc. etc.

Not for the issues of FIR, but just in general how it stacks up to other filtration methods. We have a team of university and government sponsored research scientists on the island who specialize in researching different fish related health problems, dna work for varieties of purposes, etc. The health issues are a great concern and focus of theirs. That was why I asked, not to get you to compare growth rates.....

I guess you have talked to different western scientists than I have, but that is ok, differing views is often what spurs research and interest that leads to further discovery, so march on and we will see what we can find out on this side of heaven.

The guys doing the dna research here did not have any problem with the FIR part, they shot past that into health issues related to particular sicknesses and breeding issues in the fish world that were over my head.......

We are going to be setting up a shower in a reputable wholesalers shop who has been using other medias for years and had certain issues. That is the hangout spot for those scientists I mentioned, so we will see what comes out of that, but it will probably take months to a year or so to have any reliable results and they seem focused on certain issues at the moment.

I think too JR you should check the experiences of folks who have had some dipped in their drink and noticed an obvious taste difference, I think attributing that many testimonies with none to refute it to the placebo effect is unscientific. Placebos never work 100% of the time.

As for the momentary effect, that is all it takes for waste to get stuck to the media rather than continuing in the water, even if it is a slight reduction it is worth the healthier living conditions for the koi, especially for breeding purposes.....

The whole religion thing is just a distraction from the real issue and an erroneous was to bring disrepute on those who support FIR technology. Just like here in the US, UFO's have been turned into a religion. Does that mean those people saw nothing? No. They saw something, but what it was attributed to was probably off base. Many times during those 'sightings' there were military and experimental aircraft tests going on in the area.

The actual original concept of Chi with energy in everything and energy exchanges is actually proven by western scientists, just without the religious implications. The theory or relativity. I myself am a christian, so for me a knee jerk western response would be to attribute their claims to some demonic thing, but that is a dumb response too. Did you have a chance to read any of those journals I posted earlier?

The thing that really grabs my eye is the irrefutable evidence of so many champions coming from Momotaro's facility. The % of winners, is just too much to be a concidence, and if you see the pics they won fair and square. So something is going on there that lava showers and turnovers have not previously produced. Maybe they put saki in the water, who knows.....but then they claim to dip the media in their saki too.....

junglegeorge12
08-03-2005, 10:53 AM
By the way their koi have the same genetics as others, and the same genetics work available to them, so why are they not producing the same results?????

ShiroMujiGirl
08-03-2005, 12:38 PM
quote by Junglegeorge12:I think too JR you should check the experiences of folks who have had some dipped in their drink and noticed an obvious taste difference, I think attributing that many testimonies with none to refute it to the placebo effect is unscientific. Placebos never work 100% of the time.

Er..... George? Did you realise that my friends and I eagerly tested that one last year also? The BH media did change the taste of cognac, tequila and 21 year old scotch. But when we wrapped the media in impermiable plastic and soaked it in the ETOH esters, there was no change. So cannot be rays, but some kind of buffer perhaps. SMG

JPR
08-03-2005, 02:19 PM
George , I do not mean to be condescending so please do not take it that way, but I’m wondering where you are getting this picture of Japan from? The size of koi was noted to be small on a growing number of the stock many years ago now. It was Sakai of matsunosuke and Sakai’s Yogyojo of Hiroshima that started producing large young koi. One by introducing magoi genetics and the other by creating a longer growing season, heated indoor grow ponds and pure oxygen injection. Soon after, that Maeda was in the business of master grower- producing results from adult and young prospects that could benefit from ‘big water’ and special diet secrets. At that time there was no such thing as bakki shower. The secret then was outdoor mud ponds covered with plants and then the indoor jumbo pond stocked at unbelievably low stocking rates and those rates treated to good ground water constantly. Around this time, 75 cm plus fish begin appearing regularly. And a rumor was started that the first breeder who produced a one meter koi would be given one million US dollars as a ‘reward’. And since around 2001, I think all Grand champions have been 90 cm plus? Ill hedge that off the cuff remark and say that 85 plus has been the expectation for ALL Japan GC’s for the last half dozen plus years?
The first big gosanke that won the All Japan show and was over one meter was breed by Matsunsuke. It was sold to another dealer at a young age and grown on in a huge lake-like setting. It was then sold and grown out by another dealer/breeder type. Finally when it stalled out it was brought to Momotaro’s big grow out pond. . And indeed Maeda was of a different mindset in this 1999 interview- “ it is one way to create the field pond surroundings as close as nature. This year we had an experience where the yearlings raised in a field pond were scooped out of the pond and placed in a concrete pond. To my surprise all koi gathered together and didn’t try to move , they didn’t even try to eat. So I brought some water plants in from the field pond and put them in the concrete pond. Immediately they stopped forming a school and began eating actively.”
There was no bakki show on the big pond then. But he did mention experimentation with filters and filter media in that interview.

The latest rising star is Japan for jumbo production is probably Omoto in Saitama prefecture. He believes oxygen is the catalyst after you have selected jumbo genetics in one and two year olds. He also believes in the one fish per 100 ton rule. He currently holds 30 over 90 cm females and several over 80 cm males. O- and no bakki showers. More of the techniques employed by Sakai Hiroshima.

With all this competition going on around the production of 100 cm gosanke and all the money at stake, I’m stunned that more competitors of Momotaro are not using BH? Why do you think that is George?
JR

sundan
08-03-2005, 03:05 PM
Momotaro's farm. It just gets larger and larger.

First photo:
Kohaku92cm
The 33th ZNA Grand champion
The 37th ZNA Grand champion

Second photo:
Sanke 93cm
The 33th ZNA
Grand champion

Third photo:
Kindai showa, cause I like it!

ShiroMujiGirl
08-03-2005, 03:38 PM
You mean Maeda not using impervious wrap when testing the saki and beer to rule out rays?

Ladies and Germs, Bakki Shower is a great method IF you have flush water.
Want to get soaked? Use BH media. Otherwise, use lava rock. Unless of course you feel extra good about being soaked.

JPR
08-03-2005, 09:51 PM
Sundan, I think you may be operating under a false assumption ? In Japan, a person who breeds a fish- that is, puts a chosen male and a chosen female together to strength his line or produce a new generation is called a ‘breeder’. But a person who takes someone else’s tosai or nissai and raises that fish is also said to have ‘bred’ that fish. In other words, a fish breeder and a fish grower are both called breeders. In the case of the 33rd All Japan kohaku ( 88 cm) , the breeder of the fish was Sakai fish farm. The grower was momotaro. In some cases the grower worked on the fish for several years and in other cases less than one year. This ten year old fish was with Maeda for at least three full years if not longer.
In the case of the 37th All Japan Kohaku ( 92 cm) the breeder was once again Sakai fish farm and the grower/handler and dealer was Momotaro. The common denominator by the way, was the owner- Nobuo Takigawa, a fierce ZNA competitor that wanted to get every inch of quality out of his koi before entering a national competition. Maeda is the guy who can do that.
So of the something like 72 or so – ALL Japan shows ( ZNA and Shinkokai) Sakai Hiroshima has bred( produced) by far the most, with a GC count in the neighborhood of at least a dozen or so? Matsunosuki ( both brothers and Igarashi) is probably second and Dainichi a very close third ( although Dainichi, unbeatable before 1995, still holds the record for repeat wins and ‘hat tricks’ in a given year).
Hope this clears up a few misunderstandings.

JR

dtbh
08-03-2005, 10:01 PM
That is an irrelevant test.

Hi George, I presume this posting is in response to my query on pre- and post-TT or BS/BH usage and I am sure you have a valid reason to say that. I would be glad to know why it is irrelevant.

Judging from the reports from those using BH/BS they seem to have almost instant improvement which to me can only be due to physical reasons and not biological activity. With the known effect of TT and BS/BH on improvement in oxygenation and the effects of oxygenation on the wellbeing and growth of kois (as alluded to by JR and many others), don't you think the change in oxygenation has to be excluded?

Thanks.

tewa
08-04-2005, 03:44 AM
George, I have five different setups ( some in sets of two) going or about to go. The earliest one started on July 31 and the second ones on Aug 1. This weekend two more will be started. In all experiments and demonstrations I'm interested in only the nature of the media. Tewa would like to do the standard set up and running of the entire concept- media + shower design= bigger fish. I'm not really interested in that, at least not initially. I'm interested in 'knowing' the media.
These tests, experiments and demos will verify:
1) normal cycling characteristics.
2) the porosity of media after biofilm coating.
3) the influence of location/design and oxygen levels on media performance.
4) growth rates of a single spawn in TT environments Vs submerged.
5) the issues of biofouling.
6) the ' mystery' of organic management when using this specific media ( not shower influence- it will be factored out and then reapplied).

Now obviously, many of these experiments will allow for certain conclusions to be drawn regarding the :
a) the presence and influence of low levels of FIR emitted from ceramics ( as opposed to volcanic media, granite, zeolite etc.
b) the isolation of the media itself and its influence , if any, on organics in circulation. Again through FIR influence or mechanical action.
c) growth originating from the TT design or the media itself. Submerged conditions vs TT conditions.

As you can imagine, since these experiments started, I’ve gotten Emails from all camps and from many countries. That unscientific and unsolicited polling is a study in itself. Many theories about media, performance, lack of performance, growth issues and opinions regarding why some fish grew and some didn’t. For all who have given me their experience and thoughts- thanks!

JR

wow looks like i have missed a lot.

Hi JR

Just for the record I was always assuming that your doubts about bacteria house was how it worked compared to current systems, this was because of several reasons. One you were always on about how the marketing said BH is way better than any other media and you were sceptical with it as it was new and you whether it was better than just a normal tt with say other ceramic or plastic. Thus a comparison of media and system. Then you commented about organics of a bacteria house shower as oppose to normal settlement and biochamber and TT. As you have said on NI you knew which you preferred so again another comparison of media and system. That is why i strongly encouraged the comparison of the full recommended bakki system vs your preferred system.

If you are not interested in that, that is fine. You are probably thinking all these people want me to test this and test that, if they wanted to know that bad they should bloody well do it themselves the way they want to. Thus I commend you for taking your own time and expense to do these experiments.

I think you already know in your mind the answers to points 3 and 4 and are really interested more in the rest. From your different tests i personally feel you cannot possibly draw conclusion A. With conclusion b and c I am utterly confident that you will see the positive results that you were so sceptic about, especially in regards to growth both in TT and in submerge. You and everyone on this board know the answer that the TT will give greater growth rates with BH.

Whatever your tests JR as long as you have another control for comparison that is fine especially when trying to verify point 5 and six. You are really using the 90 gallon, 1 cup of fresh pooh a day experiment to verify point 5 and six. You are probably not interested in the normal recommended waste bacteria house can handle nor the possible koi hobyyist pond waste but you really want to see how much organic **** BH can handle mechanincally (since there is no biofilm matured yet) and what you observe with your eye happens to the organic waste. That is fine but i just wanted to make sure that everyone is aware that, that kind of organic load on any virgin media, lava rock, K1, JR's 20 yr old ceramic, is way too much. thus it is important to have a control to compare the performance of the BH. JR you may have already tested lava rock with the same test and know the results and thus u are able to evaluate the performance of bacteria house but others that haven done such a test would not know. So please do tell the rest of the public how the evaluation can be made.

tewa

tewa
08-04-2005, 04:14 AM
JR great to hear you are a masters in animal behaviour and spent your youthful life in a lab.

Maeda has filled the entire under the decking run which formally housed Jmat with BH. The statement that it doesn’t work as well, is THE point and reason I’m investigating it!

So you should be testing Jmat submerge vs BH submerge right?

The purpose of my tests , like all testing, is to isolate every phase of performance so that simple pieces of a puzzle can be extracted one at a time.

So you want to know why shower BH works better than submerge BH or maybe you want to know how much better?

You already answered with TT will degas, increase 02 create a better biofilm hence lead to higher growth rates.

But then I hear you say you want to know the effect of FIR on either submerge or TT, but you don't want the porosity of the structure ie surface area to effect the results.

Firtly how can you compare FIR submerge of the same media to FIR of a shower with the same media. I think its impossible with the equipment you have, not to mention the two different styles of filtration alone with any other media will give you a premeditated result. Thus my idea find a media with similar porosity so that the mechanical side and surface area issue is negligible and make sure that media does not emit as much FIR as BH (since everything emits FIR its the quantity or intensity that counts).

Running side by side demos is not going to give us those bits of information. In the end, I do not have a full lab, spectrographs and PhDs at my disposal. But I will get some pretty neat observations and basic measurements. Stay tuned.

Yes it is difficult to get those "bits of information" and I am still sceptical whether your neat observations and basic measurements will answer it (but at least you are trying your best :clap: I have full respect for that :bow: unlike those that make their presumptuos ideas without testing it themselves though you have only just left that group)

meanwhile to keep you from developing a serious ‘facial tick’ here are some things to think about:

Haha JR serious facial tick is more like wrinkles from laughing and smiling in front of my laptop everytime i log on to this thread.

- TTs and wet/drys all will increase oxygen levels and thereby increase ORP readings no disputes mate :no:
- TTs and wet/drys will all improve growth rates due to higher oxygen levels improving protein Synthesis no disputes either :no:
- TTs will degas dense water no disputes either :no: but unless you can measure accurately the organic waste each day and also accurately measure how much organic waste you put in then you wouldn be able to accurately tell how much degassing is going on, thus you should have a control
- Wet/drys will trap POC even flushing daily you will have some level of POC on submerge or wet/dry thus the necessity of water change. You question how much you need for BS shower to maintain a healthy system, I answer, as much as you would with a submerge system. You doubt it because you doubt the media can handle the amount of waste per given amount of media because your submerge system and TTs can't

- all objects emit FIR. Look at the spectro readings on granite and ceramic for instance well i am glad we finally agree on that one JR because earlier on i was quite sure you didn reckon BH can emit FIR until the many sites you read tell you that everything emits FIR, question is intensity and amount.
- The Japanese, Korean and Chinese culture is DEEPLY involved with Chi energy and FIR Absolutely chi gong has been around for thousands of years mate before anyone ever bothered about nishikigoi
- Western scientists as a majority, reject the claims of the power of passive FIR radition. Those that believe that water molecules can be modified by FIR acknowledge that it is a Momentary effect. I believe george has already commented on this one
- koi grown 365 days a year get larger than seasonal koi. This catches up in both groups over several seasons. That is debatable, but more importantly you want a 9, 10, 11 yr old koi at 90 plus cm or a 5 yr old one.
- modern genetics should not be confused with powers in a filter system But the best genetics will result in a **** fish if placed in a lousy filter system it goes hand in hand for a koi hobbyist you want the best everything has to be good, water genetics, food, filter system and most important of all the love and passion of the hobbyist, thats a pat on the back to every serious hobbyist especially those that are sole eagerly reading this thread because after all they are seeing whether they can better their koi keeping with using BH ;)

tewa

tewa
08-04-2005, 04:17 AM
quote by Junglegeorge12:I think too JR you should check the experiences of folks who have had some dipped in their drink and noticed an obvious taste difference, I think attributing that many testimonies with none to refute it to the placebo effect is unscientific. Placebos never work 100% of the time.

Er..... George? Did you realise that my friends and I eagerly tested that one last year also? The BH media did change the taste of cognac, tequila and 21 year old scotch. But when we wrapped the media in impermiable plastic and soaked it in the ETOH esters, there was no change. So cannot be rays, but some kind of buffer perhaps. SMG

Hi SMG i believe BH is quite inert, thanks for sharing anyway i know you had a great time doing that test no matter what the result ;) :D:

tewa
08-04-2005, 05:01 AM
It was Sakai of matsunosuke and Sakai’s Yogyojo of Hiroshima that started producing large young koi. One by introducing magoi genetics and the other by creating a longer growing season, heated indoor grow ponds and pure oxygen injection.

Ah this is gonna turnout to be a classic. wheres sarge with the ding ding

Ok here goes, lets see momotaro has been in the business 11 or 12 years now sakai of matsunosuke and hiroshima for at least 3 decades (i might be wrong here on the exact number so dont shoot me like you guys have on the rest of momotaro supporters like george and sundan), why the heck hasnt toshio sakai won a GC in excess of 1m at the all japan, he was the one that did great work with magoi so he has had more time to breed and raise an all japan GC in excess of 1m than any other breeder in japan, something no one can argue with. Sakai of hiroshima first to introduce a longer season, surely he has the most chances to raise the largest tosais and nisais and sansais and yonsai. Why does majority of dealers from all over all reckon momotaros jumbo tosais are bigger :thinking:

Soon after, that Maeda was in the business of master grower- producing results from adult and young prospects that could benefit from ‘big water’ and special diet secrets.

Big water every mud pond has big volumes of water, wouldn those that have been breeding for so many years have an upperhand over maeda :thinking: Secret diets, again wouldn other breeders who have bred longer tried different diets and come up with their own secret diet, sakai of hiroshima has his own special diet and reckons if he was to market it it would be the most expensive koi food in the world this was on hiroshima dreaming by koivision.

The first big gosanke that won the All Japan show and was over one meter was breed by Matsunsuke. It was sold to another dealer at a young age and grown on in a huge lake-like setting. It was then sold and grown out by another dealer/breeder type. Finally when it stalled out it was brought to Momotaro’s big grow out pond.

Well isn a big lake = big water i am sure diet couldn have been that bad either since the genetics were there right. key word the koi stalled out after everybodys effort, it was then bought by maeda raised in the 1500 ton pond with bakki showers and grew faster than it did anywhere else (any other large lake or mud pond which i am sure is in excess of 1500ton) per year, and finally reached in excess of 1m and won the all japan 34th GC :cool:

And indeed Maeda was of a different mindset in this 1999 interview- “ it is one way to create the field pond surroundings as close as nature. This year we had an experience where the yearlings raised in a field pond were scooped out of the pond and placed in a concrete pond. To my surprise all koi gathered together and didn’t try to move , they didn’t even try to eat. So I brought some water plants in from the field pond and put them in the concrete pond. Immediately they stopped forming a school and began eating actively.”

HMMMMMMMMMMmmm :thinking: Maeda has been only breeding for 10 to 12 years of course his mind set has changed, even JRs trickle towers have been aroung for longer, nearly twice as long.

There was no bakki show on the big pond then. But he did mention experimentation with filters and filter media in that interview.

the man experimented with change and was not happy with just the way things were done so that is why momotaro is where it is now.

The latest rising star is Japan for jumbo production is probably Omoto in Saitama prefecture. He believes oxygen is the catalyst after you have selected jumbo genetics in one and two year olds. He also believes in the one fish per 100 ton rule. He currently holds 30 over 90 cm females and several over 80 cm males. O- and no bakki showers. More of the techniques employed by Sakai Hiroshima.

Lets see 1 koi per 100 ton so there should be 15 in the 1500 ton pond :jawdrop:
And you guys (JR) complain his big growth rates are due to big water, lots of fresh water and good diet. I think 1 koi per 100 ton is even worse how many hobbyist can afford that, at least 5 jumbo koi per 100 ton is more achievable. What is safer for the average hobbyist using bakki shower or pure oxygen. i am not saying these guys arent great but I haven heard sakai publicise they have bred and raised a koi to 80cm in 2 yrs and 4 months, i think last years runner up all japan the tancho kohaku was only 82 or 84cm at 6 years old. Has sakai raised a male sanke to 95cm in 4 years.

So how come momotaro was the first in history to have three kokugyo awards from the same spawning? Plenty of breeders have had more chances then momotaro. how does a man with breeding of only ten years do so many historic events.

JR are you sure no other breeders or dealers use bacteria house?

tewa

tewa
08-04-2005, 05:04 AM
Hi George, I presume this posting is in response to my query on pre- and post-TT or BS/BH usage and I am sure you have a valid reason to say that. I would be glad to know why it is irrelevant.

Judging from the reports from those using BH/BS they seem to have almost instant improvement which to me can only be due to physical reasons and not biological activity. With the known effect of TT and BS/BH on improvement in oxygenation and the effects of oxygenation on the wellbeing and growth of kois (as alluded to by JR and many others), don't you think the change in oxygenation has to be excluded?

Thanks.


dtbh

i believe george was referring to the temperature test of SmG results posted by dan

JPR
08-04-2005, 07:27 AM
Moving on, Tewa you asked me- JR are you sure no other breeders use BH? NO I'm not sure. Many have used produces like Biohealthy Ceramic Stone in their trickle towers over the last fifteen years. Montmorillonite stone in ceramic base is another popular one. These are also the people that manufacture PSB ( Photosynthetic bacteria). So the idea of ceramic stone in TTs is very well established. How many have or will switch to BH? I have to idea?
Personally, I can not believe no one has tried steroids or hormone therapy on female koi with all the money at stake? I've seen Chinese dealers come with customers to places like Maeda and drop $100,000 on ten jumbo nisai without blinking! Maybe the next frontier will be in hormone therapy? That is if Korean cloning ( see the cloned afghan hound puppy the other day?) doesn't beat them to the punch--
JR

tewa
08-04-2005, 08:49 AM
Much talk lately about bacteria house media adding FIR ( far infrared ) rays to the water. One suggestion is that this makes for tiny oxygen clusters that are oxidizing and more easily accepted into the koi’s body.
Now the shape and size of things does matte-r but not here. I remember trying a diet where I only ate flat and small things and avoided round things that might make me rounder! So I gave up apples and heads of lettuce and went on a pizza ( flat food) and chocolate diet ( small flat chocolate bars) ! The philosophy didn’t work very well in real life.
There was a dealer here in the USA that said all the Japanese breeders were using only small pellets for the koi because when they were swallowed they were smaller and were absorbed better in the digestive tract. How convenient for a guy making only small pellets! LOLs. I pointed out to him that koi have a grinding stone and teeth that reduces anything they ingest to small crumbs! You can sometimes see the pieces coming from the gill opening as they chew- especially paste and home made gel foods.. He was speechless and quickly found an excuse to slip away!
And now we have oxygen molecules ( all oxygen is already DISSOLVED mind you) reduced in size so that fish can absorb them better into the body and ‘work’ better as living creature. All one needs to ask is “ if these normal oxygen molecules are two big for my koi, how the heck do those tiny bacteria manage!” LOLs
The truth is, oxygen levels are high in the air, lower in the water in a dissolved state and even lower in a living fish. But like a train, the process of diffusion ‘pushes’ oxygen from the atmosphere into the water and at the level of the gill, into the gill and the passing blood. And this circulation ‘point of contact’ is very close to the outside water. In fact, just a few cells separate the inside ‘fluid’ of the fish from the greater outside environment. The gills have a huge surface for gas transfer ( much more surface than their entire body X 5) and an ability to take in oxygen rich water and pass it over the gill surface, extracting 50-55% of all the oxygen in that water sample in one pass in and out. In this process, the issue of oxygen and its ability to enter the blood stream is more about abundance and purity than its ability to be diffused into the fish.

Just read this on NI unfortunately i can't post there, so where in the world did this come from "small oxygen clusters" certainly not from this thread. I definitely am sceptic.

tewa

schildkoi
08-04-2005, 01:31 PM
Or should I say "inference?" by TEWA. Attributed to BHM? I suppose that the Koi had stropped growing and then miraculously started growing again after BHM? Not hardly! There is absolutly no scientific evidence to date in this thread or elsewhere to support the claim(s) that BHM helps growth!

Steve <shaking head>

junglegeorge12
08-04-2005, 02:58 PM
ok schild- i bought 3 koi (2 kohaku 1 sanke), they grew in my suppliers pond for three months from 6" to 7.5-8" each. When they got in my pond, with showers running, they grew to 11-13" in less than three months. He fed them the same food I use, and his guys fed them more than I do. Our water comes form the saem treatment plant, the only difference is our filtraion systems. He has trickle towers with different plastic medias and high turnover rates.

junglegeorge12
08-04-2005, 03:00 PM
Now that is not a totally controlled growth comparison, like others have done, but it does show clear evidence of a difference. I am sure the opposer of FIR will now post thirty five reasons why that could be so without FIR, but the reality is, this situation involved FIR.

What ever gave shiro the idea impermeable plastics do not affect FIR emissions?????

junglegeorge12
08-04-2005, 03:02 PM
We could try wrapping the sun in plastic to see if that has an effect, try walking under an umbrella in the hot sun, then remove umbrella, feel a difference???

schildkoi
08-04-2005, 03:28 PM
Take any system, reduce stocking densities, add any efficient filtration system and you will see improvements....let alone seasonal growth changes.

I am gald you are happy with your Bakki showers and media...I really am....but PLEASE stop trying to convince people your results are a direct result of this "miricle" media...because its not. Its not even near the "clear evidence" that you procliam! In a much earlier post I offered to compare a Non Bakki system to one...no one bit so here are a few statistics for you to attempt to reach.

6 Koi, 12" in May, 2003. Average length in Oct. 2003 was 20"....same breeder results in mud ponds was 19" that same season. What does it prove? Not much other than a superior designed system can match mud pond growth rates....regardless of the system.....no psuedo science to attempt to justify anything either. By the way, my example, if you do the math, is 8" in less than 6 months...yours is 1" per month. Also remember that the bigger the Koi is, typically the slower the growth rate. You want clear evidence of a superior system? There ya go! Well, as "clear" as your example anyway....and very well documented in fact. By the way, the pond I cite has also produced 5 GCs in 3 years....yours?

In short, its NOT the media itself giving you positive results....its simpy the additional filtration...regardless of its efficiencies.

Steve

tewa
08-04-2005, 10:06 PM
Or should I say "inference?" by TEWA. Attributed to BHM? I suppose that the Koi had stropped growing and then miraculously started growing again after BHM? Not hardly! There is absolutly no scientific evidence to date in this thread or elsewhere to support the claim(s) that BHM helps growth!

Steve <shaking head>

No scientific evidence true, reality shows the evidence, was the 101cm previous to the 1500 ton pond deprived of large volume of good quality water and top quality food no. Read JR's post it was stalled and than brought to momotaro.

tewa

tewa
08-04-2005, 10:09 PM
Take any system, reduce stocking densities, add any efficient filtration system and you will see improvements....let alone seasonal growth changes.

I am gald you are happy with your Bakki showers and media...I really am....but PLEASE stop trying to convince people your results are a direct result of this "miricle" media...because its not. Its not even near the "clear evidence" that you procliam! In a much earlier post I offered to compare a Non Bakki system to one...no one bit so here are a few statistics for you to attempt to reach.

6 Koi, 12" in May, 2003. Average length in Oct. 2003 was 20"....same breeder results in mud ponds was 19" that same season. What does it prove? Not much other than a superior designed system can match mud pond growth rates....regardless of the system.....no psuedo science to attempt to justify anything either. By the way, my example, if you do the math, is 8" in less than 6 months...yours is 1" per month. Also remember that the bigger the Koi is, typically the slower the growth rate. You want clear evidence of a superior system? There ya go! Well, as "clear" as your example anyway....and very well documented in fact. By the way, the pond I cite has also produced 5 GCs in 3 years....yours?

In short, its NOT the media itself giving you positive results....its simpy the additional filtration...regardless of its efficiencies.

Steve

You get 22 to 24 inch tosai in momotaro and the various hobbyist in UK that use bakki shower. Thats around 2 inch every month and in 6 months is 12 inches oppose to 8 inches 150%. By the way if you read carefully george has grown from 8 inch to 13inch in 3 months, that is 5 inch in three months or 10 inch in six months still more than 8 inch.

Are you talking about sakais pond? if i am wrong i am sorry, and if i am wrong then can i ask is this your own personal pond?.

superior designed system

so what is this superior system and how many hobbyist out there have it and can claim to grow 2 inch in one month. There are numerous bakki shower users that have claimed growth of 2 inch per month. Which other filtration system on its own can boast that many users with that kind of growth. What about the BKKS champion 86 to 94 or 04cm in 2 years. how many hobbyist can continue to grow a jumbo in their pond?

tewa

schildkoi
08-04-2005, 11:02 PM
Its more than just filtration. A system is the pond, the flow rates, turnover rates, currents, etc, etc, etc. Its a TOTAL design. Then you have to have genetics and husbandry on top of everything else. For every "miricle" BHM pond you can state I'll be happy to counter with a non BHM pond with similar growth rates......again, its not the media!

Steve

tewa
08-04-2005, 11:56 PM
Not like you??!! Tewa, how could you say that! I love you like the little Asian/Australian/malaysian brother I never had! ;)
Seriously, I'm glad you pulled back from the edge. And again I will bring you back to the point of our many conversations- The MEDIA!
Can you understand now how those fish you pictured have next to nothing to do with the bakki tower's media? Some are pre-bakki 'boarders' and others were well on their way before the bakki showers were added. For instance, in an interview with Maeda in 1994 he said, when asked about the 26th GC:
When he ( the owner) asked me to take care of this koi two years before the show, he wasn't confident because it wasn't in good condition. He thought that all he could do to revive the koi was release it into a wild pond. But this was also a big risk. He ( Maeda) honestly told the owner that the koi might die in a wild pond. However the owner believed in the breeder ( maeda).
The koi was 'bred' in Mr Maeda's wild pond with only ten other koi ( amazing stocking rates hey Tewa? :) ) They were given color enrichment food and home made paste food. After one year, it grew 6 cm longer. ( it was 78cm when it arrived from another grower). But it was still fleshless ( lacked volume).
Maeda decided to keep the koi one more year to gain weight.This time it was kept in a 1500 ton indoor pond with 90 other koi. ------
The koi GC won at size of 88 cm.


Hey JR

Glad to know the love is going around mate :)

Yes i can agree that the previous GCs did not have the benefit of bakki shower but the 101cm did and koi such as eagle, monster momotaro, seio and a few other koi from the same spawn as seio that reached ove 90 at 5 or 6 years did.

So is it fair to say that momotaro koi that have reached 90cm at 4 to 5 yr old benefitted from the bakki showers? at momotaro there are more and more nisai at 70 to 72cm and sansai at 80cm. I don't know sakai koi at all, in 2001 92cm at seven yrs old compared to 2003, 92cm at 5 yr old, compared to 2005 sakai 6yr old at 84cm.

tewa

dtbh
08-05-2005, 12:07 AM
Hi tewa, that male is truly a monster. Will put many females to shame.

The novelty of great growth, in my opinion, will pass in due time esp in this part of the world where growth of up to 20cm/year is possible for tosais and nissais. Even in overcrowded pond as proven by Hanyakoi. Whether it is due to BS/BH is debatable (I personally don't think so as my system can achieve a similar results....only difference is my kois are older and there is no overcrowding). For eg my Sakai kohaku grew (nissai to sansai) from 60cm to 74cm in one year, my Omosako shiro grew (as a sansai) from 69cm to 77cm in 8 months. Our tosais grew even faster for obvious reasons. We all know there are multifactors being in play.

tewa
08-05-2005, 12:09 AM
Its more than just filtration. A system is the pond, the flow rates, turnover rates, currents, etc, etc, etc. Its a TOTAL design. Then you have to have genetics and husbandry on top of everything else. For every "miricle" BHM pond you can state I'll be happy to counter with a non BHM pond with similar growth rates......again, its not the media!

Steve

Hi steve

back to my question was that your pond with 5GCs and 8 inches in six months?

Lets start with my pond 30000L 29 koi of genes that were from koi imported 30 years ago in australia. I have 1 koi grow at 28cm in 6 months and 3 others at 26cm, the rest grew between 3 to 3.5cm per month (which i find slow and thats about 8 inches in 6 months). Do you know of any other aussie ponds with those growth rates? and this is a pond that started for 6 months. Koi was added when media and shower were put on the pond

tewa
08-05-2005, 12:16 AM
Hi tewa, that male is truly a monster. Will put many females to shame.

The novelty of great growth, in my opinion, will pass in due time esp in this part of the world where growth of up to 20cm/year is possible for tosais and nissais. Even in overcrowded pond as proven by Hanyakoi. Whether it is due to BS/BH is debatable (I personally don't think so as my system can achieve a similar results....only difference is my kois are older and there is no overcrowding). For eg my Sakai kohaku grew (nissai to sansai) from 60cm to 74cm in one year, my Omosako shiro grew (as a sansai) from 69cm to 77cm in 8 months. Our tosais grew even faster for obvious reasons. We all know there are multifactors being in play.

hi dtbh

do you think its normal for most hobbyist in malaysia with the stocking rate of hanyakoi 37 large koi in a 10 ton system (plus 2 filter) with that amount of filtration achieve those results every month? If i remember correctly your system was 18 ton with a 24 ton filter. Do you confidently feel you can keep 66 koi of similar size to hanyakoi and achieve the growth rates you have been achieving thus far.

I am sure that is debatable as well unless you really tried it ;)

tewa

dtbh
08-05-2005, 12:43 AM
hi dtbh

do you think its normal for most hobbyist in malaysia with the stocking rate of hanyakoi 37 large koi in a 10 ton system (plus 2 filter) with that amount of filtration achieve those results every month? If i remember correctly your system was 18 ton with a 24 ton filter. Do you confidently feel you can keep 66 koi of similar size to hanyakoi and achieve the growth rates you have been achieving thus far.

I am sure that is debatable as well unless you really tried it ;)

tewa

Not normal but there are some with that results. Most hobbyists prefer to avoid overcrowding.

As to whether I can achieve the same results I think I can. Probably just have to work harder than what I am doing now. :thinking:

Hanyakoi
08-05-2005, 01:52 AM
Hi Hanya,

I was just sharing my experience with the kois I had. I wouldn't dare to extrapolate from there. If you choose to conclude as such that is your prerogative. I have seen your sanke. What do you think of her hi?[/B]

Fair enough, I do understand you are sharing your personal experience with the koi you had. No doubt about that.... Ahhh!!!... My momotaro sanke... oh yes? btw, what do you expect out of a US$200 momotaro sanke... ok, now you tell me... and I am waiting for your answer... (wait till this momo sanke wins another prize... chinese saying "drop spectacle, then you know!" Ha!Ha!Ha!)

Have you tried Yamamatsu from Niigata? He may change your opinion of Niigata koi.

Yamamatsu - a breeder eh? Sorry for my ignorance... tell me more.

[B]Momotaro will definitely continue to improve...and so will other breeders and Sakai. Meanwhile with all the prizes Sakai kois are winning they will have the right to say "Catch me if you can".

Wow! You said it or were they so arogant to say "Catch me if you can"; all these while I thought the Japanese are humble people. Yep, given a matter of time, chances of Niigata koi winning grand championship will be like 'floating in air' if sakai koi keeps on winning moreover you have momos tagging along the line.... so, what have you got to say about Niigata koi other than Maruyama winning this year?

I have tried Sakai Hiroshima, Sakai Niigata, Igarashi, Marudo, Dainichii, Seitaro, Shinoda, Omosako, Suzuki, Hoshikin, Kawakami etc. How many breeders have you adventurously tried?

So... where are the koi today? They have tested your patience too, that you gave up on them? Or did you 'off loaded' to to members becos their grith size or hi quality were not up to your expectation?

Me? I think I have bought and gave away more koi than many a senior members. I am adventurous enough to tried koi from all the vendors, adventurous enough to try mudpond, adventurous enough to try BH/BS.

I am serious enough to buy better koi and to grow them using my limited skill. I stop buying 'cheap' matsunosuke and feature them in forum and when members said they are 'craps', our friend cried 'malice'. Adventurous enough?

What's next for a young member like me... let's see... ok, visit Niigata, ok, visit Japan Koi Show, ok, visit Hiroshima and pay hormage to Sakai & Momotaro... only thing is that at this moment, I have not... Sakai Niigata, Igarashi, Marudo, Seitaro, Shinado, Suzuki, Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki and the rest...

I have tried horizontal flow, up-down filtration, midstream supply, bottom drain supply, jap mat, matala, Izeki nets, brushes, bioballs, corals and the list goes on. If my filter is not performing I will try TT, BS/BS if need be. What have you tried?

I don't have enough land space, my brother dtbh, so I have not tried 'over-sized' horizontal flow, up-down filtration, midstream suppy, bottom drain supply, jap mat, matala, izeki nets, brushes, bioballs, corals and what not... but I thought all these media are supposed to be used in sub-chambered filtration system?

Given a limitation of space, I am adventurous enough to improvise and used the TT/BH/BS system (not like others who wanted too, but chose bioballs instead - and said "Hi! Your koi grew so well in your pond, why you still need to put your koi in the mudpond! If he chose to use BH, probably his koi would do equally as well... no need to 'tumpang loh', LOL)

dtbh, try to do something 'out-of-the-box' not the old conventional way... that is what I am asking you to try...

I have had almost as many Sakais and Momotaro. I am now trying a momo sanke. I still have my old faithful Sakai Rose. Only one more new tosai Sakai kohaku. It is not a one off comparison. I said at the price range I can afford, age for age, and price for price, my personal preference is Sakai. Personal preference mind you. For the record my most expensive fish is still a Momotaro kohaku.

What to do... you chose to 'overpay' for that momotaro kohaku... okay, okay, I also did tell you it is a matter of personal preference... so compare an apple with an apple, not with an orange... I told you wert, I used to have 12 sakai and none did well, so I gave them all away...



cheers :yes: :yes:

JPR
08-05-2005, 06:37 AM
Tewa, with regard to the 101 cm sanke that won the 34th All Japan show in 2002, you're hearing Mate but you are not 'listening'.
As Toshio Sakai said - " The ONLY gosanke that are capable of growing beyond one meter are from matsunosuke bloodline. It is not possible to have a one meter gosanke without magoi blood. All Grand champions now are at or above 85 cm and its very hard to reach 90cm. But this sanke put on 6 cm in one year ( that was Maeda's contribution Tewa). magoi just brings in different genetics.

Tewa, I had dinner with Sakai after this fish won. He was very proud as this was a fulfillment of a dream and a culmination of 15 years work. The crossing of magoi and then the use of sanke and kohaku to get color back in the new Matsunosuke line- all that time and countless crosses. The fish was over 94 cm when maeda accepted the challenge to grow her further. He is an expert in these things and his efforts brought the fish over the one meter mark. This is why BOTH breeders are shown in the photograph with the owner taken at the awards ceremony.
You would be interested to know however that this sanke has a sister! She was 98 cm last I heard. It’s the genetics mate. No magic rays involved!

JR

dtbh
08-05-2005, 08:15 AM
Yamamatsu - a breeder eh? Sorry for my ignorance... tell me more.

Elder brother of the famous matsunosuke bloodline.


So... where are the koi today? They have tested your patience too, that you gave up on them? Or did you 'off loaded' to to members becos their grith size or hi quality were not up to your expectation?

Me? I think I have bought and gave away more koi than many a senior members. I am adventurous enough to tried koi from all the vendors, adventurous enough to try mudpond, adventurous enough to try BH/BS.

I am serious enough to buy better koi and to grow them using my limited skill. I stop buying 'cheap' matsunosuke and feature them in forum and when members said they are 'craps', our friend cried 'malice'. Adventurous enough?

What's next for a young member like me... let's see... ok, visit Niigata, ok, visit Japan Koi Show, ok, visit Hiroshima and pay hormage to Sakai & Momotaro... only thing is that at this moment, I have not... Sakai Niigata, Igarashi, Marudo, Seitaro, Shinado, Suzuki, Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki and the rest...

I have enjoyed most of the kois from these breeders. My matsunosuke sanke went to the pond in the sky at age 8yrs, my famous Igarashi kohaku is still at our ZNA president's pond, etc. I wouldn't say I have offloaded them...just that it is time to move on by creating pond space for new purchases.

Hats off to you as there are few who has the type of vigour like your goodself. I believe paying homage to the land of koi will do you a whole lot of good.


...dtbh, try to do something 'out-of-the-box' not the old conventional way... that is what I am asking you to try...

I would try almost anything that will do good for my system IF my pond is not producing results. Similarly in your case I don't expect you to try anything else for the moment since your filtration system is performing to your expectations. Frankly if I have to modify my filter I will try the TT or BS/BH setup for a change.

I was as adventurous as you in my early days. I have tried kusuri clay, pp, polytack, oxidan, superclean C, solcoseryl injections, oxygen concentrator etc. each of which I can give the pros and cons of their usage. After a while one gets tired....


...What to do... you chose to 'overpay' for that momotaro kohaku... okay, okay, I also did tell you it is a matter of personal preference... so compare an apple with an apple, not with an orange... I told you wert, I used to have 12 sakai and none did well, so I gave them all away...

With all the hype about Momotaro esp with your then persistent "advertisement in the Malaysian forum :) , I had to try (again can't say I don't try). When this koi came along and as I am a sucker for good body, I just paid the handsome sum the dealer asked for. The hi then was mediocre. I questioned the dealer and later even Daisuke and got the standard response. The hi improved a bit after a year but still quite disappointing. Compare apple to apple you say? The hi was worst than the hi of kohakus I now have (or used to have) and they cost less than a third of the price I paid for the momo.

I am sorry your Sakais did not turn out well. It could be you were then too trigger happy when it comes to buying and you were not so discerning. I have seen you have improved leaps and bounds in your selection skills of late. I am sure your purchase from now on will not be so disappointing whether it is sakai, momotaro or kois from any breeder for that matter. You have shown now that one does not need to pay too much and turn them into decent kois. Kudos to you friend.

And also my respect to all you guys who are participating in this thread. You guys are good. :yes: :yes:

schildkoi
08-05-2005, 09:00 AM
Hi steve

back to my question was that your pond with 5GCs and 8 inches in six months?

Lets start with my pond 30000L 29 koi of genes that were from koi imported 30 years ago in australia. I have 1 koi grow at 28cm in 6 months and 3 others at 26cm, the rest grew between 3 to 3.5cm per month (which i find slow and thats about 8 inches in 6 months). Do you know of any other aussie ponds with those growth rates? and this is a pond that started for 6 months. Koi was added when media and shower were put on the pond

Well TEWA, yes and no. Did I own that pond? Nope. Did I design it? Yep. But as I stated before, results are not the direct result of any specific thing, but the combination of an almost limitless combination of things. The Koi I quoted growth rates on were nothing spectacular in the way of genetics, Hasagawas but were sold as Tosais being that they were not up to Hasagawa San's standards to grow another year...but yet they outperformed his "keepers"...at least in the way of the growth statistics I quoted.

One dead give away to a debater that is on the ropes is when they quote examples and when proven not to be what he claims, that person falls back to totally different criteria.....in your case quoting Japanese stats and then falling back to Aussie stats and thier genetics. If you are going to use Japanese statistics, stay with them....Aussie stats, fine, stay with them but don't attempt to play both sides of the fence...its "unbecoming".

Here's a question for you TEWA, do you think fast growth at an early age = Larger overall Koi at their maturity?

Steve

tewa
08-05-2005, 11:50 AM
Tewa, with regard to the 101 cm sanke that won the 34th All Japan show in 2002, you're hearing Mate but you are not 'listening'.
As Toshio Sakai said - " The ONLY gosanke that are capable of growing beyond one meter are from matsunosuke bloodline. It is not possible to have a one meter gosanke without magoi blood. All Grand champions now are at or above 85 cm and its very hard to reach 90cm. But this sanke put on 6 cm in one year ( that was Maeda's contribution Tewa). magoi just brings in different genetics.

Tewa, I had dinner with Sakai after this fish won. He was very proud as this was a fulfillment of a dream and a culmination of 15 years work. The crossing of magoi and then the use of sanke and kohaku to get color back in the new Matsunosuke line- all that time and countless crosses. The fish was over 94 cm when maeda accepted the challenge to grow her further. He is an expert in these things and his efforts brought the fish over the one meter mark. This is why BOTH breeders are shown in the photograph with the owner taken at the awards ceremony.
You would be interested to know however that this sanke has a sister! She was 98 cm last I heard. It’s the genetics mate. No magic rays involved!

JR


JR

One of us must be giving the wrong information the 101cm sanke was bought by momotaro as a potential parent. This was when it was 8 years old at 82cm, it had stalled out despite everyones efforts. In the following three years it grew at momotaro by 8cm (9 years old, 90cm), the following year by 5cm (10 yr old, 95cm), and the next year 6cm (11yr old 101cm). You might think i have my info wrong but it was on momotaros site as well before they updated it. So it wasn just the last years growth was due to maeda. Please I have a feeling that someone is trying very hard to take the glory away from maeda's work and the effects of bakki showers, regardless of genes the koi would not have gone pass 100cm without maeda and the bakki showers, period. To date sakai of hiroshima and sakai of isawa still haven entered a gosanke in excess of 100cm and won GC period. Momotaro is getting close to growing eagle pass 1m without magoi genes, she will probably be aroung 10 or 11 by that time. Momotaro continue to grow the biggest nisais around 72cm and sansai around 83cm. They have many kohaku that reach 90 and over at only 5 yrs and it would not be difficult for them to push them to 1m over the next three years and it would still be quicker than any other breeder to get a 1m kohaku.

tewa