PDA

View Full Version : Dealing with ugly liner folds



CarolinaGirl
01-20-2005, 04:30 PM
I know that the water pressure will flatten them out to some degree, but I don't want to see folds in my liner. Since my pond is oval, I WILL have folds. Seaming tape is REALLY expensive. Can rubber cement be applied to the EDPM to stick the folds together? Will this hurt the fish? Is there another way to handle the folds? thanks!

devilsquest
01-20-2005, 04:45 PM
i saw a kitt some where for joining two liners together,so if it will do that it will hold a fold down,,,,,just cant remember where the site was :thinking: :thinking: :no:

CarolinaGirl
01-20-2005, 04:47 PM
I know what you are talking about, but that stuff is like $25 for a 10' roll. I would like something a lot less expensive. I wonder if Silicon would work??

Ryan S.
01-20-2005, 05:02 PM
If you buy a good grade of say 50yr clear silicone it will work, ~$4-5 a tube for the stuff I use. It sticks to epdm very good, I've had to pry stones off of liner that I used silicone on. The liner seaming tape pops up on ebay all the time, very cheap, like ~$20 for 100ft rolls if I remember correctly (none there now though). There are advantages and disadvantages in trying to seal these folds.

gander
01-20-2005, 05:03 PM
use rocks :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

CarolinaGirl
01-20-2005, 05:04 PM
I will keep my eyes on Ebay...maybe I will luck out. I just got a quote from a tape company and they want $380 for a 100' roll :eek: :eek: :eek: . I wonder what the disadvantages to sealing the folds would be??

CarolinaGirl
01-20-2005, 05:05 PM
use rocks :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Quite the comic, aren't ya??? :D :D :D

savannahrobinson
01-20-2005, 05:07 PM
About the best you can do is plan the folds. Glopping them full of goo doesn't work in the long run.
Plan it so that the water flow is into the fold, and not over the fold. Over the fold will encourage mulm to accumulate, and anaerobic conditions to develop.
Stuff pushed into a fold by the water - if you plan it that way, will at least have the benefit of fresh water and aeration.

(direction of water) ---> _\\_ (fold direction)

Graham
01-20-2005, 05:19 PM
Personally I would never seal large folds, but then again I wouldn't have large folds. It's almost inpossible to get them totally water tight and then you end up with a cup of dead water that you can't get at.


Try and think of the liner like a pleated skirt...have a whole bunch of very small pleats that are created as the liner is filling. A lot of them won't even become folds as much as they become slight rubber ridges in the liner that don't hold a thing

G

kntry
01-20-2005, 05:21 PM
Cindy, try here:http://www.justliners.com/splice.htm

I've used the Lap Sealant several times before. It's black and made for EPDM liners and applies like Silicone.

You'll still have to use some type of tape to hold it in place till it dries though.

After your pond matures, you won't see the folds easily if you make small folds. They will be overgrown with algae. You'll be focusing on the fish and plants and won't really notice them.

luke-gr
01-20-2005, 05:27 PM
Seems like, even if you glue them, they are still folds... :thinking:
Ive read a couple articles about seaming, but it still scares me and is expensive.

Savannah, I was thiking the opposite about the folds, but your reasoning does make sense... :thinking:

Luke

DaKid Koi
01-20-2005, 05:28 PM
100% silicone works great, just let it dry really good before add the water and it's cheap too,
I know the single side tape also works but a little more on the cash flow side , then you and always do like gary say use rocks :D :D :D :D :D

Pacificcoastkoi
01-20-2005, 05:30 PM
Use multiple small folds like pleats as described before

Charlie_23456
01-20-2005, 05:56 PM
In the long run, I doubt silicone would work...After a while it will just peel away. Using seam prep, seam tape and lap sealant would work but like everyone is saying...make it so you have small seams.

What I did to minimize seams is to stretch the EPDM tight using block to hold the liner around the edges...As you fill the pond, slowly let the EPDM slide into place as the water weight draws it down. You will need to constantly adjust the blocks so they don't fall into the pond as the liner pulls itself into the hole. For large folds, try to fold it inside itself...like you're gift wrapping a package but from the inside out.

DaKid Koi
01-20-2005, 06:05 PM
In the long run, I doubt silicone would work...After a while it will just peel away
Hey Charlie why say that it don't peel away in the coners of a fish tank and that what they use I have use it on my pond liner for a yr now still look good for the top,but then again I have not drain the pond and really check it.
Ok thats my 2cents worth :eek: :D :D :D :D :D

Charlie_23456
01-20-2005, 06:20 PM
DaKid...I feel it works well for solid joints like glass in aquariums but on EPDM, it just doesn't seem to keep it's hold that well...at least in my experience. Maybe if the EPDM is scuffed up real well...it may hold better.

Van Isle
01-21-2005, 01:00 AM
You should always use the correct product designed for seaming EPDM. When using either tape or adhesive clean the area thoroughly with seam prep or white gas (camp stove fuel) and a clean lint free rag. Put a very little bit of adhesive on the rag once the area is clean and rub it in until the seam patch or fold area becomes sticky. When using adhesive apply a thin coat of adhesive to both sides of the area to be stuck together wait until it dries to the touch then put the two sides together and roll or apply pressure. I have been using this stuff for many years and it works. Available in 1 gallon cans at any roofing supply company that deals in EPDM products. I do use the tape a bit but I prefer the adhesive. Cheers Gary

seanmckinney
01-21-2005, 06:27 AM
I have used the stuff Van Isle shows in the above photo, just allow a day or 3 for it to cure fully, the solvents within the adhesive are, from memory, flammable and probably therefore unkind to fish. I was given mine by a roofer so it was the dregs of a can and very thick. WEAR GLOVES it takes a while to get it off skin. I guess a friendly roofer might do the same for you or a very friendly roofer might give or sell you enough fresh adhesive to do the job. I wouldn't 'paint' the whole of any large folds, just the leading edge because the cure time will be increased if the whole of a large fold is 'painted'. If done properly the 'join' would be water tight and the liner would be flattened against the wall. If the join isnt water tight the fold will take the shape dictated by the springiness of the liner material.

For anyone else DO NOT use this stuff on PVC, PVC liner doesnt like it, I know!!!!


Incidently some 'rubber' liner firms will supply pre shaped liners, known here as "box liners", bottom of the page (http://www.butylproducts.co.uk/Products-Services/Ponds-Lakes/DesignGuide/). Plane oval might be doable and I think some US firms offer the same service

DaKid Koi
01-22-2005, 03:05 PM
Thanks Charlie I'll have to see what it really look like this coming spring when I do spring pond clean up and see if it really is wholeing up, right now there about 6 to 8 " of ice over the pond :eek:

CarolinaGirl
01-22-2005, 03:07 PM
Thanks for all the great replies. I think at this point, I will try to lay the liner in and keep the folds as small as possible. If I end up with a few large ones, then I may seal them to keep debris from collecting there. I just want to make sure the pond looks nice, but also does not have traps to catch waste in so it never makes it to the drains.

seanmckinney
01-23-2005, 10:15 AM
For what its worth I found over coming male impatience and taking it real slow when trying to get folds 'right' is well worth the effort. Dont try to get it perfect first time around. It took about 4 circuits of my fish pond to get things sorted as best I could.
The last 'pond' was easy as it is a shoe box shape, no shelves, and I found it easiest to get in with a couple of inches of water and get the bottom lined up and flat, then work the sides as it filled.

CarolinaGirl
01-23-2005, 10:20 AM
I plan to use duct tape to hold the fold where I want them until the water fills. I can pull the tape back off once the pond is almost full. I would love to put water in the bottom while I work the sides, but I am afraid in February, it might be a bit too cold to wade around in ankle deep water for that long.

gonecadd
01-23-2005, 11:24 AM
Hi CG. Well here's my 2 cents worth. Just make the little folds. IF for some odd reason you have to go back and pull up the liners edge to fix something you are not going to have the extra liner that the folds provide if you seam them.
Do you have new pictures anywhere?

gander
01-23-2005, 11:29 AM
Well cg I wish I had your problem to deal with. I need another coouple ponds in the worst way. :D :D :D

CarolinaGirl
01-23-2005, 11:31 AM
No new pics yet. I started backfilling yesterday, and was going to run some of the return plumbing but then it got too cold again to work with PVC glue. And it's supposed to be cold again today :( . So I am going to try to get the plumbing done next weekend instead. And then I can put in the liner.

Charlie_23456
01-23-2005, 12:21 PM
I plan to use duct tape to hold the fold where I want them until the water fills. I can pull the tape back off once the pond is almost full. I would love to put water in the bottom while I work the sides, but I am afraid in February, it might be a bit too cold to wade around in ankle deep water for that long.
The duct taping...I feel may not work...as you fill, the liner will stretch and may pull it apart...also If those flaps are on the pond side holding the flaps down, as soon as you pull the tape off, the flaps will just flap around in the water...depending on how large those flaps are. I feel the best bet is to make adjustments to the liner as you fill the pond up.

CarolinaGirl
01-23-2005, 02:54 PM
The duct taping...I feel may not work...as you fill, the liner will stretch and may pull it apart...also If those flaps are on the pond side holding the flaps down, as soon as you pull the tape off, the flaps will just flap around in the water...depending on how large those flaps are. I feel the best bet is to make adjustments to the liner as you fill the pond up.

You are probably right :( . I guess I better locate some good hip waders so I can work in the water. I am going to try to keep the flaps really small, even if means having more of them.

luke-gr
01-23-2005, 06:14 PM
Why is it better to use lots of small folds instead of a few big overlaps? Is the concern of waste getting trapped? Seems like it would be better looking to have fewer folds.... :confused:

CarolinaGirl
01-23-2005, 06:18 PM
It would look nicer to have fewer larger folds, but in my past experience I have found that large folds trap an amazing amount of debris. Smaller folds wont really show anyway, once the algae starts to coat the liner.

Gene
01-23-2005, 06:18 PM
Why is it better to use lots of small folds instead of a few big overlaps? Is the concern of waste getting trapped? Seems like it would be better looking to have fewer folds.... :confused:

Yes, a bunch of small folds won't create as much of a problem with dead spots where there isn't any water movement which would cause anaerobic conditions.

seanmckinney
01-24-2005, 06:35 AM
Carolina re getting in the pond in Febuary a pair of too large waders worn over jogging pantts and wooly socks perhaps, just make sure to clean the soles of the post before stepping into the post in case there is something sharp stuck in the sole. Thats why I go bare foot but not at this time of year :yes:

Harveythekoi
01-26-2005, 10:15 AM
Making a larger fold then gluing it down. Then as the final step using some of the adhesive shown above and completely covering it with another pie shaped piece of liner? Leaving a 4"-6" overlap so it has a good area to adhere to?

There would be no worries about leaks as the liner was never compromised. And other than a lump from the fold the liner would be smooth. There's almost always enough scrap liner available from the edges to do this so the cost would be only the adhesive. Way cheaper than the seam tape and wide enough to cover the entire fold.

Just a thought.

Garrett

http://members.cox.net/g.a.k.-1/Liner Fold.jpg

Harveythekoi
01-27-2005, 01:08 AM
How unusual. I was hoping someone would like the idea and try it out. That way I wouldn't have to be my own guinea pig again.

Garrett

luke-gr
01-27-2005, 10:42 AM
Garrett,
I was wondering something similar, possibly just making a bigger fold and gluing? With your idea, there will still be two seams all around where the additional layer was put on top.

Harveythekoi
01-27-2005, 06:16 PM
But the seams wouldn't have to hold water per se. While it would be nice if nothing got behind it there would be no water loss if in fact it did leak. Also I don't think there would be much pressure trying to compromise it.

The hard part is still dealing with the curve in the pond. I may try it when it comes to putting the liner in my new pond. It will be easier to tell if it will work when your seeing it layed out rather than just on paper or in my head.

Garrett

luke-gr
01-27-2005, 09:43 PM
I know the seam doesnt have to hold water, I was just thinking that you're not gaining much??? I mean, instead of looking at a fold, you will be looking at seams and glue goo...?? Sorta like 6 of one half a dozen of another :)

Then again, I am the pondless wonder :D ;)
Luke

Harveythekoi
01-27-2005, 10:05 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of it sealing the folds better, kind of a back up to the glued fold. I doubt you'd see much along the seam as it would only be a piece of liner glued to the liner. Pretty thin and once algae covered it wouldn't make a difference.

Guess I'll have to find some scrap and play. The play list keeps growing.

Garrett

OttawaPonder
01-28-2005, 12:11 AM
Garrett, Has a good idea and it is much easier to do with a new liner.

Now I was thinking folds in a liner are simular to a bad hair cut.
And we all know the answer to that one.
Wait a few days and it will go away. :D
So wait a while and the algae will grow over it ;) he he he
You will stop thinking about it or looking at it.

luke-gr
01-28-2005, 12:49 PM
I almost posted the same thing, Ottawa, but not having a pond of my own I held back. I know there a lot of concern about folds, but most ponds Ive been to (and are matured) I dont notice folds on the edges. If there is other stuff to look at I dont scan the liner :D

seanmckinney
01-28-2005, 02:34 PM
Garret the seam, singular, of your 'patch' would have to be water tight otherwise the water will get between the proper liner and the patch. The patch will then sit as it chooses and if added in a loose state it will be free to 'flop' about to its heart's content.
That said if the seam were watertight, WHAT A GREAT IDEA. :yes: :yes:

CarolinaGirl
01-28-2005, 02:37 PM
I almost posted the same thing, Ottawa, but not having a pond of my own I held back. I know there a lot of concern about folds, but most ponds Ive been to (and are matured) I dont notice folds on the edges. If there is other stuff to look at I dont scan the liner :D

The folds along the walls don't bother me, it's the folds in the bottom that I don't like. I like Garrett's idea very much, and if I can't manage to keep the folds small enough, I am going to give it a try.

seanmckinney
01-28-2005, 02:49 PM
Folds along the the bottom or the lowest section, or which ever floor is chosen as the starting place of the liner, should not occur if the bottom is level. It took me about 15min of lifting and twisting and slow pulling to get the floor of the deep in my last pond wrinkle free but there literally isnt a ripple in there now.
If the bottom is coned to feed sediment into the BD's then I would have though it possible and beneficial to arrange the fold so that the run straight up and down the slopes.
If the floor of the deep section has been chosen as the starting point of the liner and is wrinkle free and you have annoying folds on the floors of shelves above the deep than may I suggest laying black plastic or liner over them, I am contemplating this for the floor of my 2' shelf and have already effectively dont it for the floor of my 1' shelf. Visually my 1' shelf has been covered by gravel, for pot free loose planting, but that gravel sits on a sheet of plastic which in turn covers the liner and its folds. The plastic sheet will also hopefully stop plant roots from getting into the folds

Harveythekoi
01-28-2005, 05:04 PM
Garret the seam, singular, of your 'patch' would have to be water tight otherwise the water will get between the proper liner and the patch. The patch will then sit as it chooses and if added in a loose state it will be free to 'flop' about to its heart's content.
That said if the seam were watertight, WHAT A GREAT IDEA. :yes: :yes:

Sean, That is the intention. My mention to Luke was that if it did in fact leak it wouldn't be catastrophic. Once glued up the water pressure on it would likely keep any forces from peeling it off. Except of course a scrubber or some other item, maybe a net. I still think with a 6" or so seam all the way round it would hold really well.

Garrett

seanmckinney
01-28-2005, 06:50 PM
:yes: :yes:

OttawaPonder
01-28-2005, 08:26 PM
CarolinaGirl, I hope the day you get to place the liner in is a nice warm/hot one.

For two reasons:
1) To be able to lay the liner in the sun for a while helps to move it about and get it in to the shape you want, to shape it to the pond.
2) Once in place to be able to fill it up with 6" to maybe a foot of water, be able to walk around with bare foot, or even socks on your feet, GRINS, and smooth out the bottom as you pull up and shape the sides and slide your feet around in the water. LOL

I still recall doing that. :D

Don't sweat the small stuff. Its not biggieeeee :)

Gene
01-28-2005, 08:38 PM
The folds along the walls don't bother me, it's the folds in the bottom that I don't like. I like Garrett's idea very much, and if I can't manage to keep the folds small enough, I am going to give it a try.

If you prep the bottom so it is smooth before the liner is placed you should not have any wrinkles.

CarolinaGirl
01-28-2005, 08:39 PM
Unfortunatly,it won't be a nice warm sunny day when I put the liner in. I need to have this pond up and running before I go to Orlando in early march. SO...I will lay it out in the sun and find dead center and the roll it back in from the corners so it will be easier to unfold inside the pond. And I will have to wear hip waders to fix the folds as the pond fills. It won't be great...but I will manage. :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

OttawaPonder
01-29-2005, 12:33 AM
:thinking: Why the "need to have this pond up and running before I go to Orlando in early March"

Why rush? :thinking: (if I may ask)

A large QT - which is temp. can be used till pond is ready if you plan on picking up fish. They are much easier to take down. But a pond you want it right the first time out. PLUS to enjoy the experience..

Best of LUCK

Scott
03-15-2006, 02:18 PM
CG... :)

how did this turn out?

luke-gr
03-15-2006, 02:24 PM
CG... :)

how did this turn out?

You were thinking of me werent you?

CarolinaGirl
03-15-2006, 02:24 PM
CG... :)

how did this turn out?

turned out great. Folds don't scare me anymore. I didn't tape them...just made them small and neat.

CarolinaGirl
03-15-2006, 02:29 PM
The liner was much easier than I though it would be. No wrinkles or folds anywhere on the floor, and the folds on the walls do not catch and hold crap. And once the algae grew, the folds are nearly invisible anyway. The ring tank came out even nicer I think! Too bad I am tearing the ring tank apart and moving it soon. :p:

Scott
03-15-2006, 02:37 PM
You were thinking of me werent you?
I was thinking of us both Bro... :yes: :D:

Scott
03-15-2006, 02:38 PM
The liner was much easier than I though it would be. No wrinkles or folds anywhere on the floor, and the folds on the walls do not catch and hold crap. And once the algae grew, the folds are nearly invisible anyway. The ring tank came out even nicer I think! Too bad I am tearing the ring tank apart and moving it soon. :p:
Looks nice! Do you have any shots of the main pond with new and or seasoned (algae covered) folds?

luke-gr
03-15-2006, 02:44 PM
I remember when CG did these and everyone was excited about how neat the folds were. I didnt know whether it was a good job or not. :rolleyes: Im gonna go home and show wifey CG's pic and tell her I need it to look like that.LOL! Scott, Ill post a pic of mine in this thread when I get it done. Still shooting for the weekend :cross fingers:

CarolinaGirl
03-15-2006, 02:45 PM
Looks nice! Do you have any shots of the main pond with new and or seasoned (algae covered) folds?

I'll look thru my pics when I get home and see if any of my fish shots show the liner. :yes:

Scott
03-15-2006, 02:47 PM
I remember when CG did these and everyone was excited about how neat the folds were. I didnt know whether it was a good job or not. :rolleyes: Im gonna go home and show wifey CG's pic and tell her I need it to look like that.LOL! Scott, Ill post a pic of mine in this thread when I get it done. Still shooting for the weekend :cross fingers:
Cool!! Good luck!! I will keep my fingers crossed :yes:

ANY pics of your pond would be cool! I am doing the blockwork before I start on the plumbing..... I expect water by end of April/early May

Scott
03-15-2006, 02:48 PM
I'll look thru my pics when I get home and see if any of my fish shots show the liner. :yes:
Hiya Girlie :) That would be cool :yes:

CarolinaGirl
03-15-2006, 06:45 PM
OK Scott...I looked in all my pictures and found NONE that showed the liner folds. So I went out and snapped these a few minutes ago. Water is a little green...I just restarted my UV a few days ago. :p: One is a picture of one of the TPRs.

vrap393
03-16-2006, 02:19 AM
If you get in the pond while it's filling you can usually get most of the folds out with a lot of effort,you will still have some,but that is what algae is for soon it will cover everything and you won't notice the folds!

Harveythekoi
03-16-2006, 03:17 AM
Lots of work and it aint cheap but it can be done. Holding like a champ so far and now that the algae has finally grown over the tape it's almost invisible. Funny how it took two months extra for it to grow on the tape. Must be some kind of coating.

Make sure to use the primer. Drussel tried his without and the tape lifted after a while. He's since fixed it and all seems well.

I'll try and get a pic in the light, the flash makes too much glare to see in the water.

Garrett

Scott
03-16-2006, 12:49 PM
Lots of work and it aint cheap but it can be done. Holding like a champ so far and now that the algae has finally grown over the tape it's almost invisible. Funny how it took two months extra for it to grow on the tape. Must be some kind of coating.

Make sure to use the primer. Drussel tried his without and the tape lifted after a while. He's since fixed it and all seems well.

I'll try and get a pic in the light, the flash makes too much glare to see in the water.

Garrett

Do you have a wide clear glass cake pan or something? Float it in the water and shoot the pic through it.... :yes: I don't know if this will actually work... may end up with more reflection... :dunce:

CarolinaGirl
03-16-2006, 12:51 PM
Stick the camera in a plastic zip loc bag and shoot the seams from underwater. I bet that would work great!

luke-gr
03-16-2006, 12:52 PM
Garrett, I cant remember what you did? Single sided tape? DId you put water in it first? Seems like it might pull them apart as it settles in? I have more odd angles than you do.....

I did rough folds on mine last night. I think it might have been better in warmer weather. It was 42 when I came in last night.

luke-gr
03-16-2006, 12:53 PM
Stick the camera in a plastic zip loc bag and shoot the seams from underwater. I bet that would work great!

Make sure it's a good bag. My dad ruined a camera that way.

CarolinaGirl
03-16-2006, 12:53 PM
Make sure it's a good bag. My dad ruined a camera that way.

:eek: :eek: :(

DRussell
03-16-2006, 01:19 PM
If you tape the folds definaltley use the "firestone quick prime plus" first and make sure the area is dry before applying the tape,I used a hair dryer to speed up the drying time . For a added saftey measure I also bought a 1 gallon mix of Firestone adhesive it's kinda like contact cement I brushed that on the fold area and tape sticky side let dry and then applied.

Sellis
03-16-2006, 02:33 PM
Has anyone tried Firestone adhesive and a narrow strip of liner to cover folds? This may stick better than the tape and be less expensive.

Stan

DRussell
03-16-2006, 05:31 PM
Has anyone tried Firestone adhesive and a narrow strip of liner to cover folds? This may stick better than the tape and be less expensive.

Stan

I did think of that , but the tape is more ridgid and thicker and I think helps mask the fold a little better than just using liner material.

luke-gr
03-16-2006, 10:11 PM
Well crap! Came home today and half my liner was back in the hole. Wind. :mad: I hoisted it back up and will give it another try. I keep looking at CGs pic and I cant make them look like that. :sigh: :D:

Eric Marsh
03-17-2006, 10:44 AM
EPDM has a release compound on it that is used in the manfactoring process. This is designed to prevent it from sticking to the equipment used to make it but it also will cause difficulties using adhesives to glue it flat (or even seam two pieces together). I think that "use rocks" is the most practical advice. :D:

Of course there is also "use polyurea" but that's a whole different thing.