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Koigrl
09-06-2009, 12:33 PM
I had an idea to try to breed the "elusive ki shusui" in my new mud pond.

I purchased my brood stock and after eight and a half months of quarantine in the basement for the winter, i liberated them in July into the freshly dug mud pond, spring-fed, about 400,000 gallons in full sun.

The first nine fish: 1 female shusui, 4 midori, 2 doitsu lemon hariwakes (their markings are predominiantly platinum with a splash of yellow) 2 aya wakabas.

heres all i knew about the genetics of my stock.
shusui x ogon = midori
midori x shusui = aya wakaba.
What makes ki shusui?
so, i figured adding the hariwakes would give me some yellow to help the ki in the ki - shusui.

I introduced these fish to the pond on 7/3 and they spawned three days later. i put the breeding media into a net basket to protect the eggs, and when the fry hatched, they swam into the pond.

since the pond was brand new, there may not have been enough microscopic pond life to support all but the hardiest. some fry did survive.
And then I added more fish. To be cont'd shortly. :D:

(Note to guests: If you see only 28 pages on this thread, click on the ki shusui link just below in the signature line to be taken to the full version of this thread.)

Koigrl
09-06-2009, 12:40 PM
I became enamored of doitsu lemon hariwakes. i fell hard. I purchased four new hariwakes and another shusui for the project, and after quarantine, added these five to the "lake."

In three days, these koi also spawned and again, i took out the spawning brushes and kept them safely in a net basket. This spawning flourished.

Koigrl
09-06-2009, 12:55 PM
There was a third spawn -- don't know when -- and i think it produced more hariwake babies. very little evidence of shusui involvement, you you tell me. Here are some baby pictures taken yesterday.

so, no ki-shusui. a heck of a lot of babies who look hariwake, possibly platinums and yellow ogons and a few random reddish colored babies.

and now the big question: what to name all these fish? :yahoo:

Koigrl
09-06-2009, 12:59 PM
if anyone has thoughts on what i have, bone structure, coloration, and can offer advice on how to choose the keepers, i'd appreciate it. i'm thinking i will let them all winter over in the mud pond and seine them next spring.
thanks, all.

Koigrl
09-06-2009, 01:05 PM
more babies...

Koigrl
09-06-2009, 01:11 PM
and there are still a lot more where these came from ... :)

Tommygug
09-06-2009, 08:40 PM
Nice Fry....I'll take some of the doitsu lemon hariwakes!! It looks like you may have some kohaku also. I find culling the hardest part of raising fry. The first pass get rid any fish with deformities, any fish with no color, poor patterns or bad scale patterns. If you don't, it gets tougher as they get bigger. Good Luck

Koigrl
09-06-2009, 09:23 PM
tommy, you're not too far away from me. stand by.
we'll seine the lake next year. :)
i haven't seen one with a deformity and since they are swimming free, i'm kind of spared the hard awful work of culling, at least for now. i guess the winter will do some culling for me, after that, i'm not sure what i'm looking at apart from the hariwakes. all of them appear to be doitsu.
have you ever seen a midoriwake? i think i have the first one on earth! :punk1:

Marilyn
09-06-2009, 09:38 PM
Looking good Max! :clap: All those cute little bobblehead babies. Gotta love 'em. :yes:

Koigrl
09-06-2009, 09:44 PM
mar, i'm obsessed with them!
how am i supposed to be a god-like personage and decide to kill any of them?
:no: isn't that midoriwake a scream?

DebbieKSW
09-06-2009, 10:44 PM
I bought a doitsu hariwake this year.A little one.A lot of yours seem to be keepers so far.
On post no 4 there is one with a blue line down its back..shusui I think.

Keep an eye out for those too.

Koigrl
09-06-2009, 11:24 PM
hi, debbie, i like that little critter. i have also seen some two-tone guys with a zipper. the ayas and midoris are part shusui, so i'm not surprised to see the shusui traits show up, but it sure seems that the hariwakes have been busier. :)

Tommygug
09-06-2009, 11:42 PM
Nice, the first of a new type!!! The Japanese breeders will be jealous! good luck with them...I will wait and be patient. I have brought a few hariwaki's but I don't seem to have any luck with them....yet. I have about 300 hundred fry I am trying to move before the winter gets here...little by little

Marilyn
09-07-2009, 01:11 PM
mar, i'm obsessed with them!
how am i supposed to be a god-like personage and decide to kill any of them?
:no: isn't that midoriwake a scream?

They all are Max :yes: and I'm so glad you're enjoying the journey part of this.
The best you can do is "remove" any with obvious defects and deformities. It's your pond and you get to decide how god-like you want to be. ;)

Koigrl
09-07-2009, 03:23 PM
mar, they all have ten fingers, ten toes. :yahoo:
tommy, you said colorless ones are not keepers. how do you know if they are colorless or plat? rather, how old do they have to be for you to know?

tnthat
09-07-2009, 04:16 PM
Good work Max. Just finished the new book. Good fast read.

Koigrl
09-07-2009, 04:59 PM
Thanks, Tom. Glad you liked it!

Tommygug
09-07-2009, 08:26 PM
mar, they all have ten fingers, ten toes. :yahoo:
tommy, you said colorless ones are not keepers. how do you know if they are colorless or plat? rather, how old do they have to be for you to know?

I wish I knew how to answer that...I breed Sanke and Kohaku's thinking they would be easy...not so.. My first spawn, two years ago had a lot of platinums but not doitsu's. The fry were bright white almost from the beginning, mine were mixed with a bunch of flatter colored white fry. When they got larger you could tell for sure they were not platinums... I hope that helps...

JUDELT
09-10-2009, 11:36 PM
OOH! Pretty . These (lemon Hariwake) are my dream fish to aquire!

Koigrl
09-10-2009, 11:59 PM
possibly breaking news -- or maybe the sound of a breaking bubble -- but i'm happy tonight. this little guy certainly resembles "the elusive ki-shusui."
jud, i've got a lot of those little hariwakes. stand by, lol.
i'll post pictures another day.

anou
09-11-2009, 12:42 AM
Just want to say congrats! The fries looked beautiful and it sounded like you are having a lot of fun.

--Randy

Gene
09-11-2009, 09:39 AM
Max, you've got it going on! :yes:

hondataeg6
09-11-2009, 11:04 AM
possibly breaking news -- or maybe the sound of a breaking bubble -- but i'm happy tonight. this little guy certainly resembles "the elusive ki-shusui."
jud, i've got a lot of those little hariwakes. stand by, lol.
i'll post pictures another day.

Nice... Keep an eye on that one.

Airic
09-11-2009, 12:15 PM
After reading your post and seeing the pictures, these hariwakes are now one of my top favorites. The more I read the more facinating this koi hobby becomes. You plan on selling any of your growouts? I'm not quite ready, just currious.

Koigrl
09-11-2009, 01:02 PM
Hi, airic, i'm crazy about these doitsu hariwakes, too. it wasn't my original plan -- i was just adding the yellow gene to the mix to try to get that ki-shusui. but, i like them so much, i think i'm going to give the hariwakes their own pond.

i'm not planning on going into the koi business, but if you are going to be in the neighborhood next april/may when we seine the pond, send me an e-mail. :)

right now, i plan to overwinter them all in the mud, next year pick out a hundred or so, grow them out, pick the best.

Koigrl
09-11-2009, 02:21 PM
i am obsessed. :yahoo:

Limpet
09-11-2009, 05:27 PM
You definitely have some yellow in there don't you.

Koigrl
09-11-2009, 06:02 PM
rick, with the ki-shusui, or in general?
the hariwakes had a party as soon as they were put into the lake, that's for sure. :)

EricT
09-11-2009, 06:22 PM
max, those are a bunch of fry.

i bet by next year they are 9" long :eek1:

Koigrl
09-11-2009, 07:16 PM
they're in mud, feasting on EA health, so you could be right!

Luck
09-11-2009, 07:19 PM
problem solved...

Koigrl
09-11-2009, 07:28 PM
Thanks, D.

powerman
09-11-2009, 10:09 PM
i really like the little ki shusui...........cool..........and i am interested in your whole project...i would like to do a mud pond some day....keep up the good work..and i would expect some heavy culling by mother nature if you leave all of the fry in the mud pond over the winter in new york......hopefully the little ki shusui makes it.....good luck....i think the larger fish will hang on but i would worry about the little tosai going into winter...your call of course

Koijazz
09-11-2009, 10:19 PM
I don't know how I missed this thread earlier! Very cool! Can't wait to see them when they're bigger.

Koigrl
09-11-2009, 10:21 PM
Hi, Dan, i've never had babies overwinter in the mud deliberately. you are giving me pause. the pond is 12 feet deep, there are shallows and i'm going to put in a bucket heater to keep the ice open. wouldn't be easy to catch them. the pond is an irregular shape approx 150 x 40. are you saying they just can't take the cold? or is this a food thing?

Shorty
09-12-2009, 04:03 AM
Whenever my wife goes on business trips and spots a koi pond, she snaps pictures of all the fish for me. Here is one from her last trip, thought you might like to see it.

324037

Koigrl
09-12-2009, 07:44 AM
1st. that is so nice of your wife. :)
2nd. it's got yellow and a zip, and it's behavior is elusive... maybe

Koigrl
09-12-2009, 01:36 PM
Dan, talked to my fish hatchery friend who says the fry will do very well in the mud over winter. not the kind of situation as in a liner pond. :)

Ethan25
09-12-2009, 08:37 PM
nice long bodies on many of these, Max!

Koigrl
09-12-2009, 09:04 PM
thanks, E. altho i can only take credit for sending out the invites and providing the party. :)

Koigrl
09-20-2009, 02:21 PM
Here's an update on the ki shusi project.
Well, we don't call this amateur breeders' forum for nothing. :clap: a real breeder would be selecting two successful breeder males and a female for a project like this. I'm putting the fish into the pond that may make the elusive ki-shusui and i have added THE LAST NEW FISH. you heard it. Last ones.

Pictured below:
1 18" d. lemon hariwake. (he is a bit goldenrod-colored for some, but he has gone more lemon in the week and a half he has been in the pond.)
2 9" d. yellow ogons
1 9" d. l. hariwake
1 11" d. l hariwake
2 9" midori

scrolling down, see 1 22" female shusui. She is a little thin, but is beefing up considerably in the pond on EA Health and whatever bugs are available.

This last batch of new koi have not spawned and so the fry you see pictured here are from the three spawns of the koi at the top of this thread, mostly from the second spawn of the doitsu lemon hariwakes.

i have noticed new small fry, but too young to photograph now.

Koigrl
09-20-2009, 02:36 PM
more fry pictures :cheer:

Luck
09-20-2009, 02:47 PM
looking good!! Love the lake! Have you seen the one lately??

Koigrl
09-20-2009, 02:52 PM
a few more fry plus big guy's colors in morning light.

Koigrl
09-20-2009, 02:54 PM
hi, dustin! yes. i have seen him. i think that's him in that last little portrait. i'm doing best i can with point-and-shoot camera with delay as it tries to focus in the dark. (!) i think my life is about shooting pics of the fry twice a day. does that mean i'm fry-kichi?

powerman
09-20-2009, 07:37 PM
Dan, talked to my fish hatchery friend who says the fry will do very well in the mud over winter. not the kind of situation as in a liner pond. :)

your ponds are looking good and your project is interesting.....and like we discussed in the pm, your fish hatchery friend knows way more than i do about overwintering koi in the mud....so carry on..........thanks for the updates.....and yes i think you are fri kichi

Koigrl
09-21-2009, 12:33 AM
Finally got some good light. :cool3:

Koigrl
09-21-2009, 12:52 AM
Hi, Super Kindai,
If you could, i would love to learn from you about my fry.

could you tell me what to look for as the koi grow and how to choose fry to keep?
also, can you tell me about the red ones, what you think they are? also the ones that are kind of a translucent white.

if it is meaningful, the parent hariwakes are from yamasan, the midoris and aya wakabas are from yamanaka oya, one of the shusuis is from suda and another from quality koi, who tell me that the parents came from sakai. the misc. ogons and second shusui are 'niigata.'

my thanks.

Super Kindai
09-21-2009, 01:59 PM
Hi, Super Kindai,
If you could, i would love to learn from you about my fry.

could you tell me what to look for as the koi grow and how to choose fry to keep?
also, can you tell me about the red ones, what you think they are? also the ones that are kind of a translucent white.

if it is meaningful, the parent hariwakes are from yamasan, the midoris and aya wakabas are from yamanaka oya, one of the shusuis is from suda and another from quality koi, who tell me that the parents came from sakai. the misc. ogons and second shusui are 'niigata.'

my thanks.
Hi, koigrl.

Where should I start? .... It is said that originally Ki-shusui ( with navy-blue color scales ) and Doitsu Ki-matuba (with black color scales) were by-product of midorigoi breeding which was crossed a Shusui with a Yamabuki ogon.

What to look for Shusui and Asagi lineage fry including Ki-shusui at 1st culling is a black/navy colored genetic marker, which is called a Chobo sumi, on its head. (the first pic for reference). Ogon/Chagoi lineage fry do not have such a mark on their head. so you can easily find the difference among the fry. Btw, Shusui's scales are colorless during fry stage.

What to look for Hikari mono fry including Hariwake at 1st culling ( +/- 30 days old) is sheen, the pectoral fins and tip of mouth & eyelids should have sheen for Hikaimono variety.

then, what to look for other than the above description types is depend on your purpose & taste. it could be pattern, color tone of your choice, but no matter what fry has nice pattern or color, skin quality such as transparent & lustrous as if silky skin texture is the key for good fish. (the second pic for refrence). yes, you description as "the ones are kind of translucent" is a fundamental factor. :yes:

the red ones look like a hybrid type so we can't tell exactly at this time, it might be one of a kind since there are so many kawarimono type in Doitsu version. the fry in the third picture are Midorigoi with stepped yellow pattern version, and are keepers from 1st cull by a pro breeder who specialized kawarimono breeding. .....he has been possessed with yellow color.:D:


Here are some keepers of Hariwake and Shusui from 2nd cull by a pro breeder.

Shusui : keepers from 2nd cull
http://kbj.img.jugem.jp/20090803_887101.jpg
http://kbj.img.jugem.jp/20090803_887100.jpg
http://kbj.img.jugem.jp/20090803_887099.jpg

Hariwake : keepers from 2nd cull
http://kbj.img.jugem.jp/20090805_898575.jpg
http://kbj.img.jugem.jp/20090805_898576.jpg

Super Kindai
09-21-2009, 03:01 PM
i'm thinking i will let them all winter over in the mud pond and seine them next spring.


Dan, talked to my fish hatchery friend who says the fry will do very well in the mud over winter. not the kind of situation as in a liner pond. :)

Are you sure?

I don't know your winter temperature but your fry are very small compared to normal size offspring of the year because of late spawning. I am really wondering if the fry can make it all winter in the mud pond....:confused:, even if there are some survivors, good ones are weak so that best ones could be gone at first.....

Koigrl
09-21-2009, 03:04 PM
Super kindai, thank you so much for taking the time to illustrate the keepers from the shusui and hariwake culls. i learned so much. :bow:

i think my hariwake fry are very much like the ones in your picture. :clap:

i have a question about the little black dorsal line on some of the fry:
will that line become blue (or black) dorsal scales? or is it temporary?

At what age or size do the dorsal scales on shusui fry take on color?

what is the name for what i am going to call a "forehead plate" just above the eyes and does it indicate anything? i notice it is green on some of my fry. i refer to it as 'the mark of the midori.' :)

also, some of my fry are a pale yellow and some are more dark gold.

are the pale yellow, yellow ogons? or just another shade of hariwake?
are the platinum fry, platinum ogons?

thanks again for your guidance and your time.

Koigrl
09-21-2009, 03:15 PM
Super Kindai, i'm scared again. (!) I could accommodate fry in the house. but I have promised myself i will not put myself through that high anxiety hell again. i will double-check with my fish hatchery friend. he has assured me that they will be okay. eek.

the pond is spring fed. the water comes from the ground and then under the dock. i plan to insulate under the dock with thick blocks of styrofoam, use a tank heater and a solar blanket in front of the dock. the water is more shallow a the dock end, but the pond is 12' deep.

i am in zone five. technically, that means the air can go to 20 below zero, but the water at twelve feet deep, it is always 39 degrees or more.

if you are saying, "they will die, max," i have to see what to do now.

rainblood
09-21-2009, 03:21 PM
Geez Max, why don't you get a real mud pond :rolleyes:




:bow::bow::bow:

Koigrl
09-21-2009, 03:26 PM
:)
thanks, rain.

rainblood
09-21-2009, 03:32 PM
Prem and I will come and pull those babies for you before winter ;)

Koigrl
09-21-2009, 03:41 PM
come on down! er. up. east. whatever. lol.

EricT
09-21-2009, 06:47 PM
I think they will be just fine.

they will be at least 3" before the first freeze over (hopefully) and they have all that depth to swim in.

just keep your aerators on all the time.

-Eric

Koigrl
09-21-2009, 11:08 PM
re: wintering the fry over in the mud. :P
i used the 'emergency only number' (!) and called my friend in the fish hatchery business to make double-darn sure the fry (July spawn) will be okay. From his experience in a town near mine, same temps, less depth in his mud, he says the fry will do fine. hoping for a temperate winter, everyone. :snow: and that my planned heat and insulation under and around the dock will give the little ones a little extra protection.

Super Kindai
09-22-2009, 02:47 PM
Super kindai, thank you so much for taking the time to illustrate the keepers from the shusui and hariwake culls. i learned so much. :bow:

i think my hariwake fry are very much like the ones in your picture. :clap:

i have a question about the little black dorsal line on some of the fry:
will that line become blue (or black) dorsal scales? or is it temporary?

At what age or size do the dorsal scales on shusui fry take on color?

what is the name for what i am going to call a "forehead plate" just above the eyes and does it indicate anything? i notice it is green on some of my fry. i refer to it as 'the mark of the midori.' :)

also, some of my fry are a pale yellow and some are more dark gold.

are the pale yellow, yellow ogons? or just another shade of hariwake?
are the platinum fry, platinum ogons?

thanks again for your guidance and your time.
you are welcome, Max. Yes, your Doitsu Hariwake fry are pretty much like the ones in that previous picture....:D:

As far as I know, the little black dorsal line on some of the fry is temporary and that is a trail of Asagi blood/gene. For instance, the 1st picture is, believe it or not, Kujaku' fry.

I have never bred Shusui in our back yard so I don't have personal experience but according to a breeder's articles/reports in JP monthly koi magazine that I read before, color of the dorsal scales on shusui fry will appear during winter, let's say several month old, I don't know about size but 6"- 8" is a normal size for new born tosai.

> a "forehead plate" just above the eyes.....
Does this mean a round or triangle shaped mark as if underlying sumi on the head? If so, that is called a Chobo sumi (chobo = small).

Here are new pictures of another breeder's keepers from 3rd cull, --the degree of intensity & uniformity of Hikari /sheen is top priority throughout all culling process--, we can see different shade of beni in two groups, offspring of same parent.

"tosai is tosai"....... this short phrase means that tosai is changeable but a tendency of each fry/tosai such as skin quality, color tone/shade, body flow/line, proportion of bone structure remain same way as fish grow.
How can you learn or experience about it in person? ......you have a quite lot of best teachers in your mud pond. ;)

Koigrl
09-22-2009, 03:10 PM
Super kindai, this is a short message to say thank you for your new posting. again, such good information.


i am working on insulating the section of my pond near the dock for winter. i have found a solar blanket that is 16 mil thick, clear, and should import and hold some warmth from the sun as well as from the tank heater. the solar blanket would be about 18' x 36'. i would put an air pillow under it lengthwise. the pillow is 4.5' x 15'. this would create a tent shape that might deflect snow and at least stop the snow from weighing down the blanket and or sinking it. i would tether the panel to the dock on two sides and to the land on the other two sides. there is a cove at the front of the pond that would make this possible. the water becomes deep quickly, but there is more shallow water in this area of the pond.

my thanks again, and if anyone reading this thinks my idea for a heat tent is ridiculous (!)-- feel free to weigh in. i'm experimenting and appreciate input. the link to the solar blanket is below.

http://www.intheswim.com/Pool-Covers/Solar-Pool-Covers-and-Reels-for-In-Ground-Pools/Diamond-Series-Ultra-Clear-Aluminized-16-Mil-Solar-Blankets-in-ground/

Koigrl
09-26-2009, 04:02 PM
I've been having problems photographing the fry as the big fish become less afraid, they break up the fry party. Figured out best way to photograph the littles. Beach 'em!

Koigrl
09-26-2009, 04:09 PM
Hungry. Now. (!)

EricT
09-26-2009, 05:08 PM
:eek1: that last pic is priceless.

-Eric

Koigrl
09-26-2009, 06:51 PM
:)
luckily, they like EA, not their young.

LIjohn
09-27-2009, 08:12 AM
got yourself a potential gold mine ;) ... looking good :yes:

Koigrl
09-27-2009, 11:06 AM
thanks, neigbor. just fun watching them grow right now. they seem to change a little bit every day.

Koigrl
09-27-2009, 12:38 PM
Super Kindai, in your post # 59, you show 3rd cull keepers (hariwake?) with two shades of beni. is there a preference for one shade of yellow/gold over another? or is it just a difference. the numbers next to each fish: were they ranked in some order?
re: my pale yellow/yellow-and-white fry.
if they are one color are they ogons? two colors hariwake?
i see some of my fry with darker beni on plat that look to me like ki-kisui.
i see some that are getting small black dots. are the dots blemishes? or is the fish on its way to becoming something else, like midori.
any possibility that the red-and-white fish are aya wakabas?
or is all too soon to tell?
thanks, SK.
the mud is teaching me a lot, but your examples for comparison and your interpretation is helping more.

btw, some of the fry are over 3" now. phew. still feeding EA Health but mixing in with Microbe-lift wheat germ with probiotics. the water temp was 60 degrees F. last night. air temps going to 65 degrees today.

Koigrl
09-27-2009, 12:50 PM
SK, have posted a fish with black spots coming up -- becoming midori? or becoming crapagoi? :rolleyes:
also a red-and white one that makes me ask if it is aya wakaba? and some with strong sheen on a platinum body with a gold head. hariwake?
also, one with a darker beni on platinum -- kikusui? or?
i'm seeing a lot of fish with what looks to me like good hikari. high sheen on skin, eyelids, leading ray? yes?

Koigrl
09-27-2009, 01:13 PM
more. :rolleyes:

EricT
09-27-2009, 01:30 PM
:clap: more please

Koigrl
09-27-2009, 02:06 PM
eric, lol. thanks for the applause and the encouragement.
it's raining out. and a heron was spotted this morning.
will the little fish grow discernably larger in 24 hours?
will i spot one we've never seen before?
will they reach viable size before the weather dips?
stay tuned to "Life in the Mud. Ki-shusui With a Twist."
we'll be back right after the break. (Tomorrow)
:)

EricT
09-27-2009, 02:26 PM
lmao..

i see a few i wouldn't mind to have. :rolleyes:

-eric

Koigrl
10-01-2009, 08:41 PM
Hoping little guy will keep his coloration and thrive. :yes:

Koijazz
10-01-2009, 08:42 PM
Very cute!

Russell Peters
10-02-2009, 12:30 AM
Hoping little guy will keep his coloration and thrive. :yes:


That's your next Oyagoi.:yes:

Koigrl
10-02-2009, 09:57 AM
the size of the little fish -- don't know if they qualify as fingerlings -- 2.25" on the bulk of them, 3.0" on the first spawn, and plenty below 2" from the third spawn, must have been beginning of august.

will be trying to insulate the pond just a little. have found an intense solar blanket from a swimming pool supply company. link below. the plastic is 16 mil, says it can import and hold solar heat. the goal here is not to heat the entire pond, just to have an area that is a bit warmer for the littles.

will put a bucket heater in the shallow end, also a disk aerator between the dock and the solar blanket cover which is an 18 x 36 oval . the dimensions of the pond are 150 x 40 so this solar blanket will only cover a small area in the shallow end.

also, have ordered two air pillows 4.5' x 15' which we are planning to lay end to end, making a spine under the blanket along the 36' length, sort of a tent effect, so that snow, ice, won't sink it.

here's the link to the solar blanket.

http://www.intheswim.com/Pool-Covers/Solar-Pool-Covers-and-Reels-for-Above-Ground-Pools/Diamond-Series-16-mil-Ultra-Clear-Aluminized-Solar-Blankets-above-ground/

RE: FISH BEHAVIOR LAST THREE DAYS:
on sept. 26 adult fish were getting too friendly, interrupting feeding the young by going into shallow water to feed. babies began swimming into the shallows to be photographed.


sept. 28 -- freak out.
babies didn't come to be fed. big ones snapping at surface. food being left over.

i thought, predators: what kind?
kingfisher in the area. raccoon footprints under the dock. we tightened up security by stapling deer fencing to front and rear of dock, then running more electric fence to the front of the dock.

spoke to fish hatchery friend yesterday. he said, "my fish are acting weird."
he was having same behavior, yet, his bird predators are moving south (ospreys). and he says raccoons really don't get lucky much in mud pond.
relieved that his fish, twenty miles from mine, were acting the same.

now, thinking -- full moon? drop in temps? earthquakes and butterfly wings?
thoughts, anyone.

re: new pictures i'm posting.
i put a length of deer netting in the pond to measure the fish. the knots in the line are at every 1" so there's a rough measuring stick.

These pics taken just before the change in fish behavior.
have posted some hariwakes and also some non-hariwake cutesters because the are ... adorable. :) i see a few who might become ki shusui -- we'll see. :)

Koijazz
10-02-2009, 10:57 AM
Cool! I love the fry in the 6th pic.

Koigrl
10-02-2009, 11:52 AM
Thanks, kj!

koiaddict
10-02-2009, 12:20 PM
I hope its just butterfly wings & the tsunami in Samoa

Koigrl
10-02-2009, 12:38 PM
checked the water temp and it's 55 about 8 inches down. i'm thinking that's it. sudden dip in temp. could be nearing the end of the feeding season. big fish were up after a lot of lag time, but i think the littles are protesting the cold. interestingly, the big fish seem to be hanging out under the ugly, regular strength solar blanket i put out to give them a place to hang out when heron comes around.

i've turned off the very turbulent aeration and am glad i ordered the new, bigger, even more improved solar cover. :)

DebbieKSW
10-02-2009, 06:26 PM
Fantastic and exciting project Max.
I love Hariwake anyhow but the little fellas with the blue lines will be rippers mate.
I am not sure how the solar cover will go but would liove to see it.

Koigrl
10-02-2009, 07:05 PM
debbie, thanks for the shout-out, girlfriend! i've ordered the solar blanket and i'm eager for it to arrive. i'll post the "installation" when we're ready to go. i do not think it will be beautiful, but i think the fish will like it. (!)

EricT
10-02-2009, 09:28 PM
nice pics Max.

that string is a great size reference. do you know how long between each 'spike'?

Koigrl
10-02-2009, 09:38 PM
yes, it's one inch mesh, cut from a piece of deer fencing. primative. i was working on refining it, when the temps dipped and my babies became "elusive." :)
looks like they're working on three inches, but not there yet.

EricT
10-02-2009, 10:13 PM
yes, it's one inch mesh, cut from a piece of deer fencing. primative. i was working on refining it, when the temps dipped and my babies became "elusive." :)
looks like they're working on three inches, but not there yet.

www.kentuckykoi.com/koi-fry.html

i have two- 3inchers.

EricT
10-02-2009, 10:32 PM
yup, you do.

mine aren't near as pretty as yours. lol.

one day, i will try and breed kohaku or yamabuki ogon.

-Eric

Super Kindai
10-03-2009, 02:28 AM
Super Kindai, in your post # 59, you show 3rd cull keepers (hariwake?) with two shades of beni. is there a preference for one shade of yellow/gold over another? or is it just a difference. the numbers next to each fish: were they ranked in some order?
re: my pale yellow/yellow-and-white fry.
if they are one color are they ogons? two colors hariwake?
i see some of my fry with darker beni on plat that look to me like ki-kisui.
i see some that are getting small black dots. are the dots blemishes? or is the fish on its way to becoming something else, like midori.
any possibility that the red-and-white fish are aya wakabas?
or is all too soon to tell?
thanks, SK.
the mud is teaching me a lot, but your examples for comparison and your interpretation is helping more.

btw, some of the fry are over 3" now. phew. still feeding EA Health but mixing in with Microbe-lift wheat germ with probiotics. the water temp was 60 degrees F. last night. air temps going to 65 degrees today.


SK, have posted a fish with black spots coming up -- becoming midori? or becoming crapagoi? :rolleyes:
also a red-and white one that makes me ask if it is aya wakaba? and some with strong sheen on a platinum body with a gold head. hariwake?
also, one with a darker beni on platinum -- kikusui? or?
i'm seeing a lot of fish with what looks to me like good hikari. high sheen on skin, eyelids, leading ray? yes?
Oops, I am sorry for my late reply, Max....:bow:

Actually, the definition of Hariwake ogon, Doitsu Hariwake ogon, and Kikusui are a little complicated.
 
Hariwake ogon is Wagoi (scaled koi) as basic form, and it originally had Nezu (= oxidized dark silver) color skin + ogon's golden hi plate.
it has platinum color skin (or Jitai as a ground skin) in recent years and Doitsu Hariwake ogon is the latest fashion.

Within Doitsu Hariwake ogon.............
ones with orange color hi plate are called as Doitsu orange Hariwake ogon.
ones with yellow-golden hi plate are called as Doitsu yamabuki Hariwake ogon.
and then, ones with strong reddish beni are called as Kikusui. it originally had flowing hi pattern as if shusui but it's Doitsu platinum kohaku in these days.

Btw, Yellow color is recessive heredity compared with red color, and so it is a sort of rare among the color variations of Nihsikigoi while Hikari as sheen is dominant heredity, therefore Hikari can be put on all nishikigoi variety.
"Lemmon yellow" color without muddiness is best as for the hi plate of Doitsu Hariwake ogon but Kikusui with strong reddish beni tends to be selected as a winner at koi shows.

Yes, the numbers next to each fish in the pics of the post #59 were ranked from #1 - #5 for the reason of a degree of sheen + pattern by the breeder himself, and the yellow ones was ranked higher than orange ones.

Yes, single color ones with sheen are either yamabuki ogon and platinum ogon. some fry with small black dots maybe blemishes but they change especially fry age. the red-and white ones are not wakabas IMO but the crossbred offspring of different parental variety especially shusui and asagi often produce some unknown or one of kinds koi so that it's difficult to say definitely.

3" is good.......probably they will be able to pass the winter in the mud pond. I wish they were around 6" at this time because of toughness. Btw, it is said that if koi grow double length, they gain 8 times volume weight.:eek1:

will be continue.......:D:

Koigrl
10-03-2009, 08:51 AM
Junichi, thanks very much for the lesson. we are all learning from you. i am sorry that my littles are going to be hard to photograph as winter comes on, but instead, we get the pleasure of holding our breath(s) until things warm up in may and we know what survived, and what has changed.

when you get a chance to continue, you will find me here!
:bow:
thanks again!

Airic
10-05-2009, 10:25 AM
I don't know what it is and I'm no fish expert but these fish look perfect. I've been looking at a lot photos and trying to learn the different types and yours are still on the top as my favorite. I think you have somthing special going on here. Keep up the great work as I think your insticts are going to reward you well.

Koigrl
10-15-2009, 10:35 AM
Junichi, Powerman, et al.
I have been sufficiently concerned about freezing and fasting the 2-3" babies through a long winter, so have taken measures. it is too bad that the more i do for the fish, the more I junk up the pond.
fish first!

in previous posts, i mentioned this heavy-weight solar blanket purchased from 'in-the-swim' pool supply company.

here's the pictorial story of floating the thing with air pillows and tethers to the shore. got the pond protected just before the noreaster.

note,
i have an ordinary and small solar blanket floating in the pond and when i fed the koi in the last few days, the babies darted out from under it to feed. last night, after the new dirigible had been docked at the deep end, again, babies running reconnaisance out from the edges of both blankets.

so -- fish like solar blankets.

last steps, we're hauling the aerators up from the bottom of the pond and will site them at a couple feet below the surface so we don't stir up the water layers at the bottom. will also put in one bucket heater just to keep a hole open in the ice.

Airic
10-16-2009, 11:37 AM
I'm not too sure about that. Looks like it might blow away in some strong winds. You might be better off without the blow up thingmajig if the blanket will float on its own.

Koigrl
10-17-2009, 07:35 PM
Hi, Airic,
You've got a good point but i didn't say, we've tethered the thing to rebar. i will double check the knots in the morning. the point was to keep the blanket from sinking under ice. I'll run your thoughts by the guy who does the work around here :) and see what he thinks. also, thanks for your nice comments on the fry. i hadn't seen your previous post. its hard for me to be objective, but i really like the coloration and cannot wait to see how they get through the winter, what they turn out to be.

Koigrl
10-21-2009, 09:04 PM
The temps were in the low sixties, water in the high 40s today. i've been feeding a little manda fu daily (the instructions say can feed manda fu to 45 degrees) and have not stopped feeding yet.

The light and the opportunity were right to take pics of the lake with landscaping going in and the little fish schooling. I don't know what the solar blanket is giving them, but they do like it!

The fry are definitely more shy than previously when i was feeding them at the dock, but I think its a good thing for them to be wary. I also think the heron does not like the "solar system." Haven't seen him since the solar installation.

Pix of fry and their relationship to the solar blanket. And a few shots of the lake as we start to landscape. I have high hopes for it to be good-looking next year.

Marilyn
10-21-2009, 09:07 PM
Max, it's so pretty and look at all those gorgeous little bobbleheads. :hug: :cheer:

EricT
10-21-2009, 09:14 PM
:cheer:

i love 'em!

Koigrl
10-21-2009, 11:06 PM
Thank you!
i'm gonna miss them when Indian Summer is over and the cold comes in for real. :snow:

EricT
10-21-2009, 11:52 PM
catch some and bring them inside.

-Eric

EricT
10-21-2009, 11:55 PM
can i have a scoop of platinums? :D:

Koigrl
10-22-2009, 09:23 AM
eric, yer lookin at 400,000 gallons of 47 degree temp water, 12' deep ...
u catch 'em, u got a dozen platinum fry.
This offer applies only to Kentucky Koi for the month of October 2009 and is not transferrable. Contestant must work alone and gives permission for photography of his effort to be published on koiphen and also the interweb. Shower, fluffy towel, and hot chocolate will be provided to the contestant should he get wet. :harhar: the owners of the ki-shusui project are not responsible for damage to contestant, his nets, vehicle, camera, cell phone, clothing, scuba gear or other tools which he will provide. Ki-shusui is also not liable for any sniffles, bronchial asthma, pneumonia or any other medical conditions caused by plat-catching operation. Ki-shusui will arrange transportation from the wassaic train station to the site and provide, free of charge, either two pom-pom girls or two elderly women with pom-poms --whichever is available. :D: :cheer::cheer:

Marilyn
10-22-2009, 09:24 AM
:rofl2: Max, that is too funny! :bow:

This is such a fun thread to follow. :yes:

Koigrl
10-22-2009, 09:34 AM
Mar, you are invited!
I'll get you a pair of pom-poms -- then it will be two of us, contract fulfilled!

Marilyn
10-22-2009, 10:52 AM
Have pom-poms will travel... :yes: :clap:

koiaddict
10-22-2009, 11:25 AM
LOL Max...

Gene
10-22-2009, 11:49 AM
You go, girl! :yes:

:cheer: :cheer:

Koigrl
10-22-2009, 01:31 PM
y'all just want to see me shake my pom-poms, lol.

EricT
10-22-2009, 02:08 PM
lol. i think i'll take my offer back now :D:

EricT
10-22-2009, 02:09 PM
i don't mind everything else, just skip the pom pom girls :lmao:

EricT
10-22-2009, 02:12 PM
eric, yer lookin at 400,000 gallons of 47 degree temp water, 12' deep ...
u catch 'em, u got a dozen platinum fry.
This offer applies only to Kentucky Koi for the month of October 2009 and is not transferrable. Contestant must work alone and gives permission for photography of his effort to be published on koiphen and also the interweb. Shower, fluffy towel, and hot chocolate will be provided to the contestant should he get wet. :harhar: the owners of the ki-shusui project are not responsible for damage to contestant, his nets, vehicle, camera, cell phone, clothing, scuba gear or other tools which he will provide. Ki-shusui is also not liable for any sniffles, bronchial asthma, pneumonia or any other medical conditions caused by plat-catching operation. Ki-shusui will arrange transportation from the wassaic train station to the site and provide, free of charge, either two pom-pom girls or two elderly women with pom-poms --whichever is available. :D: :cheer::cheer:

where were you yesterday when i needed you?

i was officially classified as 'the mud man'

i lost one boot in the mud, ruined a shirt, and got mud where mud should never be. :D:

plus, i needed a better cameraman then the one i had.

Koigrl
10-22-2009, 08:19 PM
LOL, eric,
mud-ponding is not for the chicken-hearted.
:cheer2:
(only one elderly woman with pom-poms available at this time.)

EricT
10-22-2009, 08:52 PM
LOL, eric,
mud-ponding is not for the chicken-hearted.
:cheer2:
(only one elderly woman with pom-poms available at this time.)

thats better than two :harhar:


im' going to get me a pair of nice brood stock for platinum ogon, and yamabuki ogon in the spring, and we will see what happens.

i've already got kohaku and mastuba. :D:

you want more fry for that pond? :cool:

Koigrl
10-22-2009, 09:20 PM
The grown-ups in what may be their last week of autumn frolic; hariwakes, midoris, shusuis, and aya wakabas.
I hardly get to see them together this clearly in the mud, but the water is more transparent as it gets cold.
do fish feel happy?
if so, i think that they are!

EricT
10-23-2009, 07:51 PM
did you find the second :cheer: ?

Koigrl
10-23-2009, 08:19 PM
the second :cheer2: is in california, waiting to hear if she needs to take her pom-poms out of the locker ~~~~

Marilyn
10-25-2009, 11:53 AM
:D:

Love the pics Max, they are still looking plump and very happy. :yes:

Koigrl
10-29-2009, 01:39 PM
Mar, Long Tall Sally, my QK shusui has definitely put on weight. definite girly shape. not sure how her skin looks as only get quick peeks through the mud. but she's thriving.

rainblood
10-29-2009, 05:49 PM
Max -

Whatever you are planning to do, have yet to do, need done, need cleaned up, need taken apart, need greased, pushed, moved and/or repaired....I volunteer Prem.

Marilyn
10-29-2009, 10:37 PM
Good news on Sally, Max. I'm sure she is loving her huge mud pond. Make sure you give her the obligatory speech about her function in that there pond. ;)

Btw, I second the nomination of Prem to do all the work that needs doing. :thumb:

Koigrl
10-31-2009, 11:13 AM
mar/rain/prem
i second that uh-motion.
prem, community svc. help needed here at ki-shusui project! as always, the offer is good to pick you up at the train, wassaic station, transport to and from site, fluffy towels and hot choc. if you get wet -- and aging cheerleaders, free of charge. well, one aging cheerleader, anyway.
:cheer2:

re: sally.
i think she has been holding her fire while she puts on weight, but i'm guessing will be in the mood to party in the spring! selling tix to the event. :yahoo:
re: "studly" -- that pricy hariwake, cantelope-colored with kohaku pattern i bought from kodama. he has turned nice yellow hariwake-color since going into the mud and getting sunshine. he is also big and friendly and i'm wondering if he isn't biding his time, waiting for sally. or stella, the sexy shusui with the kuchi beni, and beautiful white skin. also noticed a female hariwake looks like she's building up the egg trove. should be fun around here in may! :D:

note to all watching this thread (eric!) the larger babies from july 6, 2009 spawn are not as present as the more recent spawn -- possibly august. august spawn are feeding on manda fu more regularly, hoping to heaven they can survive, i guess.

all the fish have gone somewhat feral since weather cooled down. water is just about 50, air temps going up to 65 today, but i think we're looking at the last remains of Indian summer.

how are the solar blankets working out, you ask?
the fishes love their blanky. :punk1:

murky mud pics below taken 10/21
studly
stella
hariwake maybe eggs in future?
sally
studly
sally from the back
sally munching

cheers, dears!

premster
10-31-2009, 11:30 PM
lol .. did some one volunteer me .:D:

They are looking good max .

CHICHI
11-01-2009, 03:39 PM
Fabulous Thread Max :yahoo: Well Done You :clap:

That`s a whole lotta "DOITSU" Babes :D: well and truly Satisfied my New Doitz Craving for today :punk1: Can`t wait for the Updates ;)

Thank You Darling ..:yes:

Koigrl
11-01-2009, 05:04 PM
hey, chichi, i've been busy this summer that's for sure. getting those fish out of the basement and into the mud was such a high: you're free!!! go forth and make little doitsu babies!!!!
the last shusui, long tall sally, has been a point of contention because she was not in great condition when i got her. skinny. dirty skin. one of her parents is shusui, the other asagi. so -- she may throw some wagoi genes into the pool. i hope not! we will see next spring. thanks for the high-fives!

CHICHI
11-01-2009, 05:44 PM
hey, chichi, i've been busy this summer that's for sure. getting those fish out of the basement and into the mud was such a high: you're free!!! go forth and make little doitsu babies!!!!
the last shusui, long tall sally, has been a point of contention because she was not in great condition when i got her. skinny. dirty skin. one of her parents is shusui, the other asagi. so -- she may throw some wagoi genes into the pool. i hope not! we will see next spring. thanks for the high-fives!

My Heisei Nishiki at 5 yrs old suddenly lost all his Sanke Sumi during the Summer :eek1: and is heading Doitsu Lemon Hariwake :confused:

Hope you still have Ki-Shusui`s come Spring :cheer: I`ve never heard of or seen them before until this Thread :cool3:

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc183/mio022/YepheadingLemonH.jpg

Koigrl
11-03-2009, 02:03 PM
chichi, wow. that's something re your heisei nishiki. yes, will keep y'all posted re: the ki shusui project. am expecting many interesting changes in the year to come. :)

Gene
11-03-2009, 02:12 PM
chichi, wow. that's something re your heisei nishiki. yes, will keep y'all posted re: the ki shusui project. am expecting many interesting changes in the year to come. :)

I expect great things from you, Max! :yes:

Koigrl
11-03-2009, 05:44 PM
With your continued guidance, gene. :bow:

Airic
11-04-2009, 09:50 PM
Keep those updates comming and glad your solar blankets are holding up well. Those parent fish are looking good. Love this time of year when the water clears up.

What part of NY do you live? I've got a work project going on in Manhatten for the next 6 month and wonder how far you are out from there.

Koigrl
11-05-2009, 12:14 AM
hi, airic, i'm about two hours upstate from new york city. snow expected tonight!

lukef
11-05-2009, 01:50 AM
Koigrl,
Kindai has given you very accurate information, from some of the best sources in the koi world.
i will give you my insight into the good and bad that you have done.
First the good (and it is very good)
it is very difficult to get as good and accurate a spawn as you were attempting. Choosing and finding proven pairings is perhaps the hardest thing Breeders must do. So often it does not work out and an entire season is lost.
While you have not chosen the most difficult varieties to work with there are many pitfalls in these varieties when trying to find oyagoi.
Now the bad...
unless you are willing and can actually cull the fry after no greater than 6 weeks you reduce the quality and size of the total spawning results...the fry you have would have most likely been twice the length they are if you had culled them twice and removed at least half of them at each culling. Right now you should have 10% of the fry remaining from ALL the spawnings.
You are not alone. First time breeders typically don't understand that culling is central to a successful harvest.
if you can't find a way to cull the pond twice over the Summer then you should consider not breeding in that pond..IT IS THAT IMPORTANT. Your fry show an extreme amount of potential (as a whole) that they will never achieve. And crowding them will increase the amount of deformities, decrease the rate of growth, and a disproportantely large percentage of the better fish die when they have to compete with the "plain white ones".
And keeping tosai in cold water is not the norm and can result in extreme mortality. Put some of the good ones in warm water over the Winter.

Now back to some more of the good... I was quite happy to see you go off and breed a koi variety so far from the spotlight..your effort shows that you are very industrious and secure in who you are and what you like. I know of No one that would have put those fish together (on purpose). But it was a very successful endeavor (till you didn't have the ability or desire to cull them properly.)

Koigrl
11-05-2009, 09:58 AM
Dear Luke,
Thanks very very much for your critique. There's no "but" about it, i'm printing out and reading again. and again.

because my spawns happened in this large body of water, 400,000 gals or more, i didn't see that the proportion of fry to adult population and gallonage would have a significant impact.

by september, water level was down all over the county which meant if i lowered the lake to seine, i wouldn't be able to fill it back up in a timely fashion. also, i didn't want to stress the big fish going into winter.

i get your point about culling.
and i see that i may have stunted some growth here. some say they will catch up given good circumstances, but certainly they are small now.

but we have to move forward.

i have another pond. it's empty. i mean -- empty of water. i think we have stopped the leak and it is filling now from a temporary water source, as i write this.

i'm going to post a thread about the "lower pond" later today and will put a link on this thread.
the lower pond has about 250,000 - 300,000 gallon capacity.

in line with your point on crowding and culling, i am trying to figure out the best use for this new pond.

-- use it as grow-out pond for the tosai we have?

-- move spawning media to this new pond immediately after spawn in the spring? and keep the next generation of fry in net baskets inside this pond?

-- selectively move out a few of the hariwakes from the "lake", 2 males and a female, and give those hariwakes a pond of their own. that way, i will have 100% doitsu hariwakes in a pond of their own and let the ki shusui project carry on in the lake. i have hariwakes in there to spare.

-- would appreciate your thoughts on the best use of this new pond, luke. and thanks for your comments.

lukef
11-05-2009, 11:45 AM
On a lark right now I would choose 150 fry to put in the lower pond..pick the best of several of the color patterns you see in your tosai.
you will learn what proper stocking does for tosai (maybe).
I say "maybe" because tosai should not Winter outside in your Weather Zone.
If you properly culled you would be down to a manageable amount..THAT IS THE REASON TO CULL..it is not to select all the koi worth anything. It is to get the number down to a biomass that YOU can provide the MAXIMUM level of care for...
it isn't about raising 1000 good fish.
It is about raising 200 awesome fish...200 Awesome fish require pampering.
Sure you could try and winter some of the second string tosai outside.
First time breeders fail because they keep too many fry. I have repeatedly told backyard breeders to throw away 90% of the eggs of a pair of koi they intentionally spawn....the reason is because the Hobbyists is already overwhelmed and the fry haven't even hatched.
Take a good long look at the REALISTIC number of koi fry/tosai/nissai you can keep at the ideal stocking level and force yourself to stay within those limits. it is not about having 5000 cute minnows.


So what to do next year?
get rid of all this year's tosai. I know you can't but you should.
Prep the ponds so fry growth will be maximized during the first month they are alive..dry it out over the Winter till in a little lime and fertilize with a little chicken manure.
Spawn what seemed to work best from last year's pairings in the big pond...spwan what was second best in the lower pond.
when the fry are approaching 2 inches seine the pond and get rid of over half of them.
when they are less than 5 inches long do it again and get rid of at least half of them..if you are not going do another culling then reduce the amount by at least 80%...
Sometime in the next year figure out a way to keep 100-300 tosai from next year's fry..
Bring in the best 300 ( before the water temp drops below 60 degrees, and keep them warm and fed over the Winter. (cull through the Winter). Do not put all your eggs in one basket. Choose the best quality of several different coloration and patterns that show up in the fry for Winter Pampering.....

Another and perhaps more prudent use of the two ponds would be to breed in only one pond and then when you cull return the keepers to the other pond

Koigrl
11-05-2009, 03:25 PM
Luke,
Good advice. Tall order!
thanks very much.
and here's a link to the lower pond thread. http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1726321#post1726321

Koigrl
11-05-2009, 08:39 PM
Question: what tastes like styrofoam?

I've tasted it. I know. :cool3:

EricT
11-05-2009, 08:43 PM
manda fu?

CHICHI
11-05-2009, 08:45 PM
I Imagine it does :eek1: :D: Those Sweet Fry Appear to Love It Though :yes: as mine did the "CAT-KIBBLE" Yesterday even though they were still chewing it an hour later :eek1:

Koigrl
11-05-2009, 08:47 PM
It's a fruit/vegetable koi food, supposedly 98% digestible, and it's fine to feed with temps as low as 45*, which is what my temps were today. Has no taste at all! Hard to find, Manda Fu, but I understand new batches are due or in. Search our vendors. Also Kodama usually has it.

Koigrl
11-05-2009, 08:49 PM
Chichi what's your water temp in Fahrenheit, if you know?
It's too cold here for me to try cat kibble, altho I have it here in seven or eight delicious flavors including sensitive stomach and anti-hairballs. :)

CHICHI
11-05-2009, 08:55 PM
Chichi what's your water temp in Fahrenheit, if you know?
It's too cold here for me to try cat kibble, altho I have it here in seven or eight delicious flavors including sensitive stomach and anti-hairballs. :)

:eek1: Believe Me Max The Whole "Cat Kibble" Episode Freaked Me Right Out :eek1: they were chewing for over an hour head down in one spot :eek1:

I Accidentally Threw in a Handful mistaking it for the Babes Pellets ? these being alongside each other (Not Anymore) I hasten to add :no:
Current Temps have dropped steadily to 14-ish C :yes:

Koigrl
11-05-2009, 09:26 PM
chichi, i read the thread you posted on this. :)
the fish are fine, right?

CHICHI
11-06-2009, 03:33 AM
chichi, i read the thread you posted on this. :)
the fish are fine, right?

Fine now Yes Max :yes: Weird for a while at the time though :eek1:

Sounds very Cold over there ?? Hope the Fry are OK ;)

Koigrl
11-06-2009, 10:34 AM
chichi, it's freakin' cold.
But, the water is deep. there is a heater to keep a hole in the ice open, a gigantic solar cover and a secondary one in the shallows to trap a little sun-generated heat. some floor algae to munch on.
i don't know what their overwinter prognosis is.

-- some say, they are too small and it will be bad for them and they will die or only the best ones will die.

-- some say, this is life in the mud, happens all the time, your fry will be fine.

-- maybe there will be some third option -- only the ugly ones will die.

But, none of them look fugly to me. as my great-grandmother, Annie Moore, used to say about her thirteen children, "All of them are beautiful. show me one that isn't." lol.

-- i cannot bring them inside. impossible to catch without lowering the pond and that's just not on. too late. too cold. not enuf spring water yet to replenish the pond until winter.

so, the fish, big and small, are on their own starting now.

junichi told me that this breeding program is a very great learning experience. it truly is. and Luke makes excellent points, too.

of course, i never set out to have a fish farm. just wanted ki shusui! the rest sorta happened like a lightning-strike of a first date in the back seat of a car.
unplanned! not really! but a really cute idea! with consequences. :rolleyes:


flashing back, looking forward

last year at this time i was trying to make 120" of koi survive in 400 gallons of water in the basement. I'm sure you remember! crisis almost every day. i hate to think about it. :eek1: but except for one very determined jumper, they all made it into the mud in July. :clap:

i have a feeling that mostly my hariwakes were breeding last july. that's what it looks like and maybe a shusui got into the act.

truth is, i don't know what next years' spawns will look like with a lot of shusui influence, especially from the one very large shusui who is half asagi.
could get a lot of koizillas; (ethan, get ready!) yellow-headed, black cobblestone things. :gack:

the learning curve has already started!
in eight months, we will know more.:biggrininvasion:



i'm lucky to have the mud and the room for this project -- and i'm very lucky to have found koiphen -- don't mean to get sloppy here ;) -- but seriously, this would never be happening without what i've learned from by fish friends on kp. :bow:

CHICHI
11-06-2009, 11:06 AM
chichi, it's freakin' cold.
But, the water is deep. there is a heater to keep a hole in the ice open, a gigantic solar cover and a secondary one in the shallows to trap a little sun-generated heat. some floor algae to munch on.
i don't know what their overwinter prognosis is.

-- some say, they are too small and it will be bad for them and they will die or only the best ones will die.

-- some say, this is life in the mud, happens all the time, your fry will be fine.

-- maybe there will be some third option -- only the ugly ones will die.

But, none of them look fugly to me. as my great-grandmother, Annie Moore, used to say about her thirteen children, "All of them are beautiful. show me one that isn't." lol.

-- i cannot bring them inside. impossible to catch without lowering the pond and that's just not on. too late. too cold. not enuf spring water yet to replenish the pond until winter.

so, the fish, big and small, are on their own starting now.

junichi told me that this breeding program is a very great learning experience. it truly is. and Luke makes excellent points, too.

of course, i never set out to have a fish farm. just wanted ki shusui! the rest sorta happened like a lightning-strike of a first date in the back seat of a car.
unplanned! not really! but a really cute idea! with consequences. :rolleyes:


flashing back, looking forward

last year at this time i was trying to make 120" of koi survive in 400 gallons of water in the basement. I'm sure you remember! crisis almost every day. i hate to think about it. :eek1: but except for one very determined jumper, they all made it into the mud in July. :clap:

i have a feeling that mostly my hariwakes were breeding last july. that's what it looks like and maybe a shusui got into the act.

truth is, i don't know what next years' spawns will look like with a lot of shusui influence, especially from the one very large shusui who is half asagi.
could get a lot of koizillas; (ethan, get ready!) yellow-headed, black cobblestone things. :gack:

the learning curve has already started!
in eight months, we will know more.:biggrininvasion:

and i'm very lucky to have found koiphen -- don't mean to get sloppy here ;) -- but seriously, this would never be happening without what i've learned from by fish friends on kp. :bow:

I Hope you get some "Ki Shusui" Max for all your Endeavor :yes: :cheer: I don`t Breed because I won`t Cull either :no:

Know only too well about Wintering in Low Gallonages Max :eek1: I kept 80" Koi in 300 Galls Water whilst some were Injured/sick and having to run the gauntlet of Cycling :eek1: All Suvived Thankfully ..

BTW My Lemon Hariwake Convert is reverting back to "Hesei Nishiki" :confused: perhaps chewing on the Kibble for over an hour "Shocked" his system back the other way :D: :D: :D: ;) ;)

Forgive me for overlooking your Query Max :rolleyes: Temps in PH :D: and not "C" are 57 :yes:

We have Enjoyed your exploits and being your Fishy Friends too :cheer: Do Keep us Posted :yes:

lukef
11-06-2009, 01:05 PM
we ALL have enjoyed your endeavor and the style you have chosen and shown both in doing it and writing

Now to keep kicking the dead horse....
You state what you hoped to have from the "endeavor" ... Ummm well errr .................................................. .in relation to just the raw numbers, did you get it?

And you can NOT let them all breed next year when they want to and to who they want to....
When it gets warm enough in the Spring, get all your males in the front seat and all your girls in the back seat.... I don't care how, just get it done before you have Chirren even Grandma regrets getting in the back seat for.

Koigrl
11-06-2009, 08:04 PM
Luke -- that is a darned fine point and truly speaks to one of the possibilities for that lower pond:
front seat -- the lake,
and back seat, the lower pond.


and now, where to put, say, a hundred-fifty of the best-lookin' "chirren" while they grow?

i'm running out of pond sites. :rolleyes:
although i do have one of those 5000 gal intex pools. (yech.)
it's a possibility though.

Koigrl
11-06-2009, 08:15 PM
Chichi!
ain't it a b*itch having too much fish, not enuf water? gawd. the accidents. the water changes. twice daily. the emergency calls to CINDY!!!! thanks for your cheerleading on the sidelines. i have a couple of possibilities in this year's spawn that look like -- hate to jinx myself -- ki-shusui. it would be a miracle, i know. but i'd like to retire from fish breeding ahead of the game. lol.

CHICHI
11-06-2009, 08:17 PM
Luke -- that is a darned fine point and truly speaks to one of the possibilities for that lower pond:
front seat -- the lake,
and back seat, the lower pond.


and now, where to put, say, a hundred-fifty of the best-lookin' "chirren" while they grow?

i'm running out of pond sites. :rolleyes:
although i do have one of those 5000 gal intex pools. (yech.)
it's a possibility though.

Hiya Max ..:D:

There are so Many "Valid Points" in Lukes Post which is why I don`t Breeeeed :eek1: :yes:

I Know little about Breeding but the TAD I have gleaned shed light upon some aspects namely that even Japanese Oyagoi can throw an Inferior spawn following an Initial "Good" one :eek1:

Also in relation to Biota/Phyta Mud Ponds are repeatedly "Fertilised with "Chicken Manure" etc in order to Boost emergance of all these Natural Foodstuffs ..

Koigrl
11-06-2009, 08:33 PM
chichi,
we did fertilize the lake with hi phosphorus fertilizer when we put the fish in. that was the way easy part. i was learning on the fly, still am. i was so relieved to get the fish outta the basement i sprouted wings. (see my avi!) i truly didn't think ahead to too many fish, and what to do in years to come, just wanted to see if i could achieve "the elusive one."

now with luke's back seat/front seat idea, i'm thinking how some of my adult fish are tosai themselves, so I may not really know what their sex is/are when i get my hands on them again. out of the 20 adult fish, i've got about 6 or so "unknown."

i'm all for simplifying life next year.
gotta see if the lower pond will hold water.
gotta get a new well or reliable water source for that pond if it does.
and i've got six months or more before i have to get muddy!
good news? i have no desire to buy more fish. lol.
who else can say the same? anyone? no. :harhar:

CHICHI
11-06-2009, 08:44 PM
chichi,
we did fertilize the lake with hi phosphorus fertilizer when we put the fish in. that was the way easy part. i was learning on the fly, still am. i was so relieved to get the fish outta the basement i sprouted wings. (see my avi!) i truly didn't think ahead to too many fish, and what to do in years to come, just wanted to see if i could achieve "the elusive one."

now with luke's back seat/front seat idea, i'm thinking how some of my adult fish are tosai themselves, so I may not really know what their sex is/are when i get my hands on them again. out of the 20 adult fish, i've got about 6 or so "unknown."

i'm all for simplifying life next year.
gotta see if the lower pond will hold water.
gotta get a new well or reliable water source for that pond if it does.
and i've got six months or more before i have to get muddy!
good news? i have no desire to buy more fish. lol.
who else can say the same? anyone? no. :harhar:

For a Novice Max you have "Excelled" Sweetheart Truly :cheer: Your Tenacity knows no Bounds :no:

I was Referring to the "New" Smaller Lake which hopefully is "Holding" Water Now re:- the "Fertilising" just in case you were wanting to use this for fry :yes:

Koigrl
11-06-2009, 08:56 PM
chichi, re: fertilizing now!
sorry, didn't get it, but i do now. wonder if this isn't too early tho. you think microscopic stuff will grow in these temps? if so, this is pretty easy to do.

Marilyn
11-16-2009, 11:55 PM
... I don't care how, just get it done before you have Chirren even Grandma regrets getting in the back seat for.
:lmao: That is priceless.
Luke, following this discourse is highly entertaining and even sometimes educational. :D:

I love ya Max and I hope your bobbleheads do ya proud. :yes:

CHICHI
11-17-2009, 05:09 AM
chichi, re: fertilizing now!
sorry, didn't get it, but i do now. wonder if this isn't too early tho. you think microscopic stuff will grow in these temps? if so, this is pretty easy to do.


Possibly Max :yes:

There is a risk of over stimulating a Premature Algal Bloom with all the Forebodings associated with such if undertaken too Late in the season :eek1:..

Better to wait until Spring now :yes:

Koigrl
11-17-2009, 07:48 PM
hi, ya'll, 'specially luke!
while i was out the chirren jumped back and forth between the seats and produced an august flock of the gang-bang variety. :eek: cannot get close enuf to really see them -- fish are quite wary this time of year, or else it's my long heron-like shadow... anyway, the aug. chirren are mutts! pure and simple!

about the leaky pond; still leaking.
pond contractor fellow is thinking to put cow poo in there. apparently, 'round here, cow poo seals leaks in mud ponds.
i haven't heard from my pond guy this week, so just letting the lower pond fill with brook water. level rises four inches, drops two inches.
i don't know -- ***.
but hoping that maybe enough bentonite will eventually seal it if i just keep it full of water. you think i know?
i, too, am learning as i go. :smile: :yes: :yahoo:

afertuna
11-17-2009, 09:24 PM
This has been fun going thru this thread. I too love Ki-shusui and I have been trying to get some. This year I was ably to get three 2 longfin and one standard all of which were in terrible shape I thought ohwell I will try it. Only the standard made it thru the quarintine. Saldy I noticed it had a bent tail and what looked to be the koi version of cleft lip. I gave it to a friend :(
BUT I allow a spawning a year and I have a few little shusui's swimming around. I too allowed my shusui male to be with my female yellow doitsu I dont know the name of the all yellow doitsu canary metalic yellow with darg yellow zipper down the back. The fry are developing nicely and one has an amazing zipper. I have my fingers crossed....Thanks for sharing your breeding line and this thread
Allen

Koigrl
11-18-2009, 09:31 AM
Allen, thanks for your post. hey! i have a fellow ki-shusui kichi on the other side of the country. start a thread for your project, why don't you? post pics!

EricT
11-19-2009, 11:13 PM
:protest: we need winter pics!

Koigrl
11-20-2009, 07:36 PM
Hello Eric -- and other interested parties, :new: pix

It has been very warm this week. the water temps are in the lo-50s so I risked feeding manda fu and then yesterday a very small amount of microbe-lift wheat germ food with probiotics.
i took pictures.

but gotta say the littles are very very shy this time of year. my camera is too poor to take decent pix, so trust me when i say there are vortexes of babies and i did, see the fish i think of as ki shusui this eve. :yahoo:

the first pic is the best photo of the littles;
next, the much-maligned long tall sally.
following are some pics of the lake and then,
the bigs.
i think of them as kind of a fruit salad ;)
papaya-wakabas and lemon hariwakes with a garnish of shusui . :clap:

fish still loving their blankets (and their electric fence.)

will take more pics of the fry soon. :D:

CHICHI
11-20-2009, 07:51 PM
I Love that they are Popping out from under the "Well-Thought-Out" Solar Blanket Max :yes: You are a True Matriarch to Your Babes and they`re looking Pretty Robust Too :yes:

You Did Good Girl :D: and must be enthralled by your "Ki Shusui" Progeny and the Condition of them all this Late in the Season :yes:

Koigrl
11-20-2009, 07:57 PM
hi, Chichi!
It's an unorthodox herd, but i sure do love the way they look together. the babies look every bit as robust as the adults. i wish i could get the fry to come closer, but no way. and yes, that extremely well-thought-out blanket delights them -- if fish feel delight :)

as for me ... :rapture:

EricT
11-20-2009, 08:14 PM
:clap::yahoo::cheer:

Koigrl
11-20-2009, 08:21 PM
:bow:

EricT
11-20-2009, 10:21 PM
:bow:

aww shucks :mylove:

Koigrl
11-22-2009, 08:23 PM
A little fuzzy, but this is the elusive baby ki shusui on the lower left side of screen.
fuzzy babies pix follow.
also photos of the grown-ups today in the sunset. in the last pic, an aya wakaba (center) spreads his wings. :clap:

CHICHI
11-22-2009, 08:45 PM
:cheer: They look sooo much Bigger than previously Max :yes: I expected a type of Growth Cessation period due to the Cooler Temps :yes:

I Guess "Mud Pond" life provides so much more by way of Phyta/Biota access to these Fry Babes they continue to thrive regardless :cheer:

Love the "Ki shusui" Babe :D: must make your heart skip a beat at every encounter ...

We have a Truly Indian "Autumn" for want of a better description here :rolleyes: hope some of this has headed your way too :yes:

Koigrl
11-22-2009, 08:59 PM
hiya, Chichi! yes, we have unseasonal warmth here. the lake water is still hovering at around 50 degrees F. i do think the littles have grown, but it is hard to photograph them with my little point-and-shoot especially when they insist on swimming in the middle of the lake!!! i was elated that i captured the little ki shusui on digital :).
it's hard to read the other babies, but i see many with little zips. i wonder if the zippers will carry over to adulthood, or if this is simply the mark of the asagi. the adult koi are also growing and changing in good ways -- and i saw another recent spawn in the lake this afternoon. i reckon they are maybe 3-4 wks. old. I'm not naming them -- but not counting them out, either. :)

CHICHI
11-22-2009, 09:09 PM
hiya, Chichi! yes, we have unseasonal warmth here. the lake water is still hovering at around 50 degrees F. i do think the littles have grown, but it is hard to photograph them with my little point-and-shoot especially when they insist on swimming in the middle of the lake!!! i was elated that i captured the little ki shusui on digital :).
it's hard to read the other babies, but i see many with little zips. i wonder if the zippers will carry over to adulthood, or if this is simply the mark of the asagi. the adult koi are also growing and changing in good ways -- and i saw another recent spawn in the lake this afternoon. i reckon they are maybe 3-4 wks. old. I'm not naming them -- but not counting them out, either. :)

:eek1: :eek1: :eek1: Hope your Nerves can take it :D:

I Have to Log Out Now it`s 1 am here :rolleyes: Look forward to the Updates Max Sweetie - your Dedication knows No Bounds :cheer:

Marilyn
11-23-2009, 07:08 PM
Max, they look so good and so big! I'm glad your weather is giving them a little more grow time before true winter sets in. Love the ki shusui and all the adult pics too.
Please keep the pics coming, even when you start getting snow. :hug:

And why do I see a few mud harvest thread in your future? Lots and lots of pics when that time comes. :D:

Koigrl
11-23-2009, 07:14 PM
hey mar,
it is really stupendous that i'm feeding them in november. will certainly seine the pond in spring -- if we can plug up the leaky lower pond. otherwise, heaven help me. :eek1:

Marilyn
11-23-2009, 08:17 PM
I'm so sorry to hear the lower pond is continuing to give you trouble. Dang it all, don't the powers that be know you're a woman with a ki shusui mission?

I wish I could be there for the seining come spring. That will be so exciting! :bow:

Koigrl
11-23-2009, 09:00 PM
lol, mar. be careful what you wish for!
i will keep you posted. :yes:

CHICHI
11-23-2009, 09:08 PM
lol, mar. be careful what you wish for!
i will keep you posted. :yes:

Where There`s A Will (along with substantial acreage - Dogged Determination and Commitment ) ;) There`s A Way Max :D: I`m sure you`ll Find It Being the Trooper that you are :yes: :cheer: :D: and it`s 1 am again here :rolleyes: Nite All :hug:

Koigrl
11-23-2009, 09:24 PM
chichi, thanks for checking in. and actually, i'm the one that proves the point -- to be careful what you wish for!
g'night gf.

EricT
11-25-2009, 01:29 AM
:clap:

Hirogoi
11-28-2009, 09:47 AM
Dang, I gotta try your breeding strategy.

Koigrl
11-28-2009, 11:35 AM
Got mud? :wink:

powerman
11-28-2009, 12:08 PM
Max...your little ones are looking good...nice pic of the awesome little ki shusui...i want mud.....and i hope you get that other pond sealed up soon...i am sure that one way or another you will solve the problem....kudos to you..koi breeder.....:bow:

Koigrl
11-28-2009, 12:25 PM
dan, thanks so much for the kudos. :D:

the lower pond is still a question mark and it will determine how many of the littles i can grow out. i'm importing water from the brook which is free of predator fish at present, hoping that a full pond will eventually stop leaking.

link to the lower pond
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104263

i have about a thousand pounds of sodium bentonite left over from the lower pond project, that i will have shoveled into the pond in the spring. it is a very pretty pond, 300,000 gallons, perfect for tosai. so here's hoping. :crossing fingers:

i just found an old post on bentonite clay written by gene winstead of koi valley, a wonderful guy who is the final word on clay. see his post #8 if you are thinking of putting in a mud pond or are just interested in the benefits of koi clay.
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65385

i am thinking, maybe i should put a bag of the bentonite in the ki-shusui pond, just to make sure the koi big and little get all their minerals!

powerman
11-28-2009, 12:31 PM
dan, thanks so much for the kudos. :D:

the lower pond is still a question mark and it will determine how many of the littles i can grow out. i'm importing water from the brook which is free of predator fish at present, hoping that a full pond will eventually stop leaking.

i have about a thousand pounds of sodium bentonite left over from the lower pond project, that i will have shoveled into the pond in the spring. it is a very pretty pond, 300,000 gallons, perfect for tosai. so here's hoping. :crossing fingers:

i just found an old post on bentonite clay written by gene winstead of koi valley, a wonderful guy who is the final word on clay. see his post #8 if you are thinking of putting in a mud pond or are just interested in the benefits of koi clay.
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65385

i am thinking, maybe i should put a bag of the bentonite in the ki-shusui pond, just to make sure the koi big and little get all their minerals!

ok i will read the thread and look for post number 8.....i add Gene's koi clay to my pond on a regular basis and i think it contributes to skin quality....of course a mud pond would do even more.....and right now the mud pond thing is a dream...i don't have a piece of property to do this yet so no mud pond in the near future...i do have an idea for adding another filtered pond to my yard...but i think it is on the five year plan.....

lukef
11-28-2009, 02:42 PM
to plug that hole you got to do it with rock and sand and then clay.

Marilyn
11-28-2009, 03:18 PM
Anyone fancy a trip to Max's for seining and sorting? Just kidding Max! You'd have all of KP descending on your happy hamlet. :D:
:hug:

Koigrl
11-28-2009, 03:51 PM
WOW, mar!!! Super nice of you to pay for all accommodations. Everyone, Mar is putting WWKC ppl up at the local Willows motel -- meals included!!!! What a great gal you are, hon. Pls. p.m. marilyn for her charge card number and also send her your wader size as she has an account at WWW.Waders-R-Us.com. Chichi, Debbie -- Mar has a pilot friend, can get super discount airfare rates int'l variety. Just when you think you really know someone -- this! :harhar: :harhar: :harhar:

Marilyn
11-28-2009, 03:55 PM
Oh ouchie! Making mental note not to joke about descending en masse on a certain collections of mudponds in NY. :D:

But hey, if I hit the lotto and after I've purchased my own mudponds... watch out. :jive: ;)

Koigrl
11-28-2009, 03:56 PM
:lmao:

Marilyn
11-28-2009, 04:49 PM
And I'll have you know I'm sportin' Cabela's waders... and buying a lottery ticket or three. :D: I figure if I'm there I can pick my ki shusui before the rest of the crowd. :whistle:

DebbieKSW
11-28-2009, 05:29 PM
I would be there in a instant but right now am enjoying all the sun that summer has to offer...and playing with my own koi...so......
good luck with the new pond Max.

EricT
11-29-2009, 01:34 AM
i'd be there, but its winter! :eek1:

Koigrl
11-29-2009, 08:49 AM
not forever, buddy ......
:no:

EricT
11-29-2009, 04:35 PM
not forever, buddy ......
:no:

did i mention i can't drive?? :no:

Koigrl
12-01-2009, 05:07 PM
Update, Dec. 1, 2009 --
the koi in the ki-shusui project are still browsing for food. the air temp. is currently 38* F, the water is 46* and the feesh are hungry. yesterday, i fed twice, 5 Tbsps of Microbe-lift Wheatgerm, medium-sized pellets with probiotics and about 8 manda fu at each feeding -- for a total of 20 adults and i don't know how many babies, so, not very much.
just to say that they were out and about!
a few pics below. :yahoo:

Marilyn
12-01-2009, 06:18 PM
Max, second to last pic... the bottom right is Sally? and who is the shusui at 12 o'clock?
Great pics too for this time of year! :yes:

Koigrl
12-01-2009, 07:05 PM
mar, re: the pics you asked about.
the bottom right is sally. twelve o'clock is bella. stella (lol) is under bella. she's the one with kuchi beni (what evah!) although you can't really see her so i'm posting other pics below:

sally today (1 and 2)
bella in front (3)
bella and sally (4)
stella (5)
stella was in the basement last year this time!

swear i have better pics! especially of Stella, but this is a do it now, kinda thing. lol.
L8R. :wave:

TODDER
12-01-2009, 07:59 PM
I read alot on here about fry not doing so well when water temps are down. Given how far north you live, do you think you'll have any problems with this?

CHICHI
12-01-2009, 07:59 PM
Still Looking Great Max :yes: :cheer: and Eager For Food :D:

Love the Contrast in the "Adult vs Fry" Dimension Shots :eek1:

Beginning to freeze Over Here :eek1: First Frost This morning and in the Minus Ambient Temps :eek1: Heater has been Deployed for the " Heat Cycling Protocol " :eek1:

Koigrl
12-01-2009, 08:20 PM
chichi, it's good we're in roughly the same latitude so we don't have to convert those pesky C to F degrees! are you heat cycling new fish? i may have missed your posts.

maximus; yes we have discussed potential for fry mortality in winter earlier on this thread. i'm in zone 5 = could go down to 20 below. but the water in the pond, because it is below ground level will never go below 39*. the reason i rigged that beautiful solar cover blimp was to provide more heat -- don't know if it will do anything useful, except i think it may be growing algae as i have seen some pool cover sucking going on. ;)
i cannot seine now, could not provide good housing for fry, and local fish people say they will do just fine in the mud. we shall see...

CHICHI
12-01-2009, 08:35 PM
chichi, it's good we're in roughly the same latitude so we don't have to convert those pesky C to F degrees! are you heat cycling new fish? i may have missed your posts.

maximus; yes we have discussed potential for fry mortality in winter earlier on this thread. i'm in zone 5 = could go down to 20 below. but the water in the pond, because it is below ground level will never go below 39*. the reason i rigged that beautiful solar cover blimp was to provide more heat -- don't know if it will do anything useful, except i think it may be growing algae as i have seen some pool cover sucking going on. ;)
i cannot seine now, could not provide good housing for fry, and local fish people say they will do just fine in the mud. we shall see...

I Would "Solar Cover" it All Max Love ;) Were it Mine and your Fry Babes look to be Robust enough to "Cope" now Truly :yes: Time will tell re Predation risk etc :eek1:

I have for the First Time Combined all My Koi from Pond /QT/GO etc with one another into a Single Vat :eek1: and want to "KHV Heat Cycle" them as a Precautionary Measure given some possibly most have not been through this Protocol whilst at the Dealers ....:no:

Koigrl
12-14-2009, 07:28 PM
About those solar pool covers and air pillows:
I cannot tell if the water is open directly under the air pillows, but the pool covers are frozen to the lake~

CHICHI
12-14-2009, 07:53 PM
About those solar pool covers and air pillows:
I cannot tell if the water is open directly under the air pillows, but the pool covers are frozen to the lake~

:eek1: WOW that happened Fast Max :yes:

Is there any way of Checking :eek1: I suspect where the Pillow is will be Ice free on the Principle of the "Floating balls" Technique :yes:

I would still want a "Hole" the other end via an air pump or Floating low watt Heater maybe ..

Marilyn
12-14-2009, 07:54 PM
A belated thanks for saying the who is who in the pond, Max. :bow:

And it looks like a much larger solar cover might be needed for next year. :eek1:

Koigrl
12-14-2009, 07:59 PM
guys, i put in an emergency call to gene when the lake froze over and my air was off and my stock tank heaters were frozen solid. he said, and i'm more or less quoting:
1. don't worry. 2. your fish will be fine for months without a hole in the ice (because of the size of the pond). 3. sealing over with ice is actually good for the fish.
(i think this is a temperature thing.)
i had already ordered pond deicers from tractor supply. so i will have them. but maybe not use them. :shrug:
thanks, y'all.

TODDER
12-14-2009, 10:03 PM
I have not had a mud pond for koi but have had a mud pond for crappie and bass. In the winter they would freeze over solid for 2 months or more and never had any fish loss. I dont know if it would be the same for koi though.

Koigrl
12-14-2009, 10:09 PM
i know, maximus. otherwise if you wanted to get rid of crappie and bass, and some people do -- it would be a snap. :) i'm going to drop in the deicer when i get it tomorrow so i don't have to put my head in the oven if the fish don't make it over the winter.

expat
12-15-2009, 11:04 AM
Don't know all the facts but I think that the bottom water in a mud pond 5 to 6ft deep stays about the same temp most of the year, you may be upsetting the stratification of this warmer water by using air which will mix the water layers. The koi will be at a low level of activity and should need a low amount of oxygen. I would not worry too much, fish usually survive being frozen over for a while.

Koigrl
12-15-2009, 08:58 PM
hi, expat, thanks for your thoughts on this. i would only use the aerator a few inches below the water line to keep the pond from freezing over. my tank deicers failed and the new ones that i bought today, have even less wattage. :shrug:
still working on this.

EricT
12-16-2009, 09:13 AM
:protest::protest:

i want baby pics!

:rolleyes:

winter looks cold KG.

its 18* here but no snow :no:

Koigrl
12-16-2009, 10:05 AM
" :protest: :protest:

i want baby pics! " Eric.

hold on, eric. maybe in four or five months. :)

lukef
12-16-2009, 10:40 AM
kgrl,
And for any other person that does not understand the environment ...

think of your pond as a house...with walls and a floor made of dirt/rock/fiberglass/concrete/whatever...BUT THERE IS NO ROOF....
Now if you wanted to keep warm how warm would your house be if you put up a roof that was 10% of the surface area?
How 'bout it covering 90% of the surface....

Incompletely covering a pond is like having a house with a roof and leaving the sky lights...
but that is why a thick covering of ice is insulation...till the ice forms your pond looses heat through convection (rapid loss of heat)...once a thick layer of ice forms you will still loose heat but more by conduction than convection and thta is SLOWER than convection.

Koigrl
12-16-2009, 01:10 PM
thanks, luke, that's what gene was telling me.
so what about the hole, hmmm?
handyman is coming tomorrow with propane to cut small chimney sized hole in 'roof,' say a foot or so in diameter. plan is to simply put in an air hose, no bubbler, just an inch or two below the roof to keep it from freezing over in that one spot for evacuation of gases. your thoughts?

lukef
12-17-2009, 12:06 AM
No to an air pump...the air can actually cool the water down to a detrimental level up where you live...
If I did anything where you live and with that size pond I'd throw a small heater,1-2 kilowatt, in it...put it on a rope attached to a float and have it positioned just off the bottom..it might not do a thing..but it won't hurt.

Koigrl
12-17-2009, 10:37 PM
luke, was only talking about a small hose of air two inches below surface to keep a small air hole open, but happy to entertain idea of heat. why put heat just off the bottom? are you just thinking to provide warmth for fry? what brand name of heater or type of heater?

Hirogoi
01-16-2010, 07:54 AM
Heat at the bottom because heat rises and it'd disperse more through the water would be my guess. That way you don't lose all the heat immediately to the surface.

EricT
03-03-2010, 09:43 AM
:bump: Spring Bump!

Koigrl
03-03-2010, 09:53 AM
Thanks for asking.
:snow:

rainblood
03-03-2010, 10:30 AM
Wow. That's one ugly cat :eek1:




:D:

Koigrl
03-03-2010, 10:38 AM
Wow. That's one ugly cat :eek1:




:D:

All Pinky has to do to make me happy, is sleep on my head and purr.
And that's what she does. :yes:

jonathan
03-03-2010, 07:34 PM
look you found eric's cusin lol :harhar:

EricT
03-03-2010, 10:48 PM
look you found eric's cusin lol :harhar:

no. he is my long lost cousin. twice removed. (and i think we know why.)
:rolleyes:

EricT
03-03-2010, 10:49 PM
AAHH!! MAX!!! Don't remind me of that dreaded white fluffy stuff!!!!! It just finally melted, and is getting up in the low 60*'s.

-Eric

jonathan
03-03-2010, 10:54 PM
you know what they say you can choose your friends but not your family

EricT
03-03-2010, 11:04 PM
you know what they say you can choose your friends but not your family

:yes:

Koigrl
03-12-2010, 12:00 AM
News for all who are following the ki shusui with a twist (of lemon hariwake) project.

I threw some manda fu into the opening in the ice near the dock at lunch, and at 5:00 p.m., went to check with zero expectations --- I had to run back to the house for my point-and-shoot.

results below. :clap:

I didn't see all of the babies I remember from December and I did not see the special one who may be ki shusui -- but it's 400,000 gallons + and it's very possible that not all of the fry got the memo. :)

Hoping to get better pictures in the morning. :cheer:

vernon619
03-12-2010, 12:24 AM
nice!

Marilyn
03-12-2010, 12:46 AM
Look at all those pretty bobbleheads! :jive: Nice pics, Max. I needed a baby update. :clap:

CHICHI
03-12-2010, 04:49 AM
PHANTASTIC ! Max :clap: :yahoo:

Clearly Many /Most even have made it through the Winter :cheer:

Koigrl
03-12-2010, 09:53 AM
i will keep you posted!
i saw larger fry toward the bottom. i saw one of the grown-ups, too. water is flowing through the lake at a good rate and the temps are 45-48 degrees. Fahrenheit!

rainblood
03-12-2010, 09:54 AM
THEY'RE ALIVE :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:

Koigrl
03-12-2010, 10:10 AM
:girl: ---------------------------------------> the fry whisperer.
(me)

EricT
03-12-2010, 05:50 PM
:clap:

EricT
03-12-2010, 05:51 PM
Hey, i'm ready to take you up on that offer for the plat fry. LMAO!

(as long as you promise to keep the pom pom girls away)

Koigrl
03-12-2010, 11:00 PM
There is still ice on 4/5 of the pond but, some of the larger fry appeared today for evening chow. Thanks for your comments, ya'll. :)

EricT
03-12-2010, 11:02 PM
WB my offer? LMAO

EricT
03-12-2010, 11:19 PM
I'm just pulling your leg KG.

-Eric

Koigrl
03-13-2010, 12:24 AM
:harhar:

DebbieKSW
03-13-2010, 06:24 AM
hurray hurray ....good news maxine!!!!

Airic
03-15-2010, 12:43 PM
Looking good. I have no ice and I can't seem to get mine to come up and feed. My water is pretty clear and could see around 8-10 swimming around but, they are just not interested in food. What gives?

Russell Peters
03-15-2010, 01:35 PM
Looking good. I have no ice and I can't seem to get mine to come up and feed. My water is pretty clear and could see around 8-10 swimming around but, they are just not interested in food. What gives?


It might still be too cold for them. What is your water temperature?

Airic
03-15-2010, 02:10 PM
At the time I tried to feed them it was 50 deg. Had lots of rain recently and its now dropped to 45 deg but, not tried to feed them since trying the first time. This is all surface temp from a little pool floaty temp gage. This is the first winter of having Koi so I'm not sure what to expect.

Koigrl
03-15-2010, 06:40 PM
Airic, my guys are not coming up to the surface regularly. we also had a ton of cold rain. i saw baby fish for two days. saw one or two of the senior fish, at the same time, but they didn't eat. it's early. i think the cold is going to lift next week and maybe we'll see some action, then. let's hope!

Gene
03-16-2010, 03:51 PM
:yahoo:

Oakridge
03-16-2010, 04:32 PM
Our fish have just started eating this week. Temps were in the mid 50s for about 4 days before getting hungry. They act like they are starving to death. Feeding Cheereos and Blackwater cool weather food. IT'S GREAT TO HAVE THE FISH UP AND EATING AGAIN.

JMorris271
03-17-2010, 10:28 PM
Bump

Koigrl
03-17-2010, 10:45 PM
I will have a report and pictures at the end of the month.
And thanks for your interest. :)

Airic
03-22-2010, 11:15 AM
Mine ate for the first time last week but only the one day. It is amazing because I think my 55deg water temp is critical. The only day the temp was at 55 was the day they ate. Come on warm weather!

Koigrl
04-03-2010, 12:14 AM
Friends of the Ki Shusui Project, hello.
I was away for a couple of weeks during some bitter and rainy weather. Returned on March 29th to find the lake defrosted and not a koi to be seen.

Over the last few days, I have been quite anxious to see baby koi and of course the big ones, too. The water temps have been in the high 40s, so have been crumbling manda fu and broadcasting a little wheat germ chow, and finally saw some action -- the grown-ups came to the table.

But, still -- I hadn't seen the babies in over two weeks, and the ones whose pix I posted here while the ice was still on the pond, were the late august/september '09 spawn, the smallest guys. Didn't see many of the early July spawn, bigger-sized fry.

Today, I took off the pool cover and tested out the new camera purchased just to photograph the fry. I did finally see a swirling column of the larger fry as they raced from the deep end of the pond where the large pool cover had been -- to the other side where the small pool cover and the dock are located.

The young 'uns have all gone pretty feral over winter.
I am posting the swirl o' fry -- you gotta look hard -- plus some pix of the grown-ups today. I will try to entice the fry for close-ups in the days to come.

;)

EricT
04-03-2010, 12:18 AM
:clap:

CHICHI
04-03-2010, 07:27 AM
:cheer: A Shoal of Koi Fry :yes: Yippie :D:

Great sight to see :yahoo:

Koigrl
04-03-2010, 11:49 PM
Still waiting for babies to come close and be photographed. Some photos of the grownups while we wait? Just a few. :)

Airic
04-06-2010, 03:24 PM
Love those doitsu lemon hariwakes. I could have my pond just dedicated to those alone. By far my favorite.

EricT
04-06-2010, 03:42 PM
the second to last picture looks like the little Cingular guy. lol

EricT
04-06-2010, 09:46 PM
eric, gonna look for the cingulair guy. :cool3:


http://images.google.com/images?rlz=1C1DVCB_enUS337US337&q=cingular+guy&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi
:D:

Koigrl
04-16-2010, 08:24 AM
I have very little patience for my babies who are hanging out in the middle of the pond and won't come in for their I.D. photos. Last Fall, they were posing for their close-ups, and now, I'm begging them. "Please little guys. Swim closer."

Yesterday, the ides of April, a handful of bravehearts swam within ten feet of me. Mostly the TomatoWakabas, or Akawake w/ zips. )

First, "Dancin' with koi" and a darlin' papayawakaba with fab eyeshadow.
Then some babes.

Btw, the air temp is still dropping into the thirties
The water temp hangs around 60. F.

Koigrl
04-16-2010, 08:33 AM
a little guy from last year's july spawn who looks like a keeper to me. ;)

CHICHI
04-16-2010, 08:35 AM
Love the Contrast in size represented there Max :yes:

Those Parents look Huge now :eek1: