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    Thread: Unpacking a shipped fish

    1. #1
      Doug is offline Super Member
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      Unpacking a shipped fish

      With some of us receiving fish via shipment, maybe Kevin or Brady can help detail the proper procedure for receiving the fish. How should they be unpacked, accilated to the owners existing water. Should they be scraped, left alone for a few days before feeding, etc. I would not want anyone to do harm to any fish because they might not know the correct procedures.
      Doug

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    2. #2
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      The way I do it is to float the bag for 15 to 20 minutes and open up and transfer the fish directly to your QT. Do not add any water from the QT to the bag. The bag water has a ton of ammonia in it and the low pH/High CO2 is the only thing protecting the fish from it.

      Ideally The QT water be prefect and shouldn't have a pH too high.

      I then let the fish rest for a day or so and then do a scrape/scope. Only then will I add any med or salt to the water...has to be a need for it. The fish will be scraped 10 to 12 days after this also

      G

    3. #3
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      Unbagging Koi,...

      Yep, Graham's right on! Float the bag for 20 minutes to get the water temps matched up, and then open the bag and lift the fish out and into the tank it's going into. Throw the bag water away!

      *** It's important to leave the bag sealed until you're ready to take the fish out - opening the bag early, and letting the oxygen/CO2 out, or adding any fresh water to the bag will change the PH of the bag water too much for safety.

      Best Wishes,
      Brady


    4. #4
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      I have always followed the rule 15/20 minutes floating in the bag, but have always added a little salt to the the QT, to relieve any stress caused due to being shipped. . Srape and scope a few days later.
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    5. #5
      Lynn is offline Inactivated
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      I do the same thing, float and then remove the fish from the bag and place him in the tank. I think that it bears mentioning to read Graham's post again. That the big difference between bringing a fish home and having one shipped.
      The fish produce tons of ammonia, but the pH in the bagged water has dropped and is probably at 6, so the ammonia is not as harmful.

      I aslo break the rules a bit when it comes to feeding. I let them settle in for a couple of hours and then offer them a bit of food, usually goldfish flakes. After a day or so I start feeding them koi pellets.

    6. #6
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      Oh and one other thing

      Make sure you net your quarantine tank....if you don't, someday you will eventually see why.
      About the time you get old enough to realize your father was a smart man, you have a teenager telling you just how stupid you are. :D

    7. #7
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      So if the pH is at say 6, and the pH in the q tank is 7.5, it's not going to cause a problem?

    8. #8
      Lynn is offline Inactivated
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      Darlene, usually the increase in pH is not so hard on a fish, it's a decrease that will send them into a stress. Getting them out of the high ammonia is more important at that point. My pH is 8.4 and it has yet to cause a problem with a newly shipped fish.

    9. #9
      Koin-Onia is offline Koi Kowboy
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      After I put them in their 30 day temporary residency I dim the lights to where it is almost dark or shut them off or cover the tank if outside and let them be for several hours then peek in on em and after a day return to light.
      The Great Smoky Mountains Koi Club

    10. #10
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      What the experienced fellas recommend is correct- IF the koi is in the bag less than 8-10 hours. IF the koi is in the bag 12- 24 hours the pH is very very very low indeed! AND the koi are in an ocean of ammonia! This is cool in that, the koi are semi protected by the low pH, which can easily be 6.2. But IF you just float the bag until temperture adjusts, two thing happen- the koi put out more ammonia and the pH is even MORE deadly in warmer water! The koi can experience pH shock as the change is great. Professionals estimate a loss of 5%- 15% in such abrupt transfers.
      THEREFORE, if your koi are in the bag more than 12 hours and the pH is low, take your pond water and place it in a bucket and lower it to match the bag water in pH. Once the pond water is the same temperature and pH as the bag- transfer the koi immediately to the isolated pond water. NOW, raise the pH in the doctored pondwater via a drip from your normal pond water. When it is within .2 of your pond or equal to your water's pH - move the fish. This way, you will never loose a fish upon direct transfer, and more importantly, you will not set the stressed fish up for disease in your new water.
      JR

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    11. #11
      auntiesue is offline Koiphen Koi Health Advisor
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      Every fish I've ever received from a dealer has been bagged in water with an ammonia binder at double the dose so I would assume that ammonia would not be a problem with a shipment less than 24 hours. Is this correct?
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    12. #12
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      Sue, it is not the compound in the water that protects the fish, it is low pH. Remember the thread on ammonia a while back? At different pH levels, ammonia becomes more or less toxic. In low pH most of the ammonia is in a less lethal form.

      While the koi is locked in the bag during shipment, it breaths in oxygen and it breaths out carbon dioxide. The trapped carbon dioxide lowers the pH. This makes the ammonia less toxic. In fact this neat little fact is what makes it possible to ship koi such a long distance without ammonia poisoning. If you were to add pond water to the bag like many people do to ‘ acclimate’ them to their temperature and pH- you cause the pH to rise, but the deadly ammonia now shifts to the much more deadly form and damages the fish.

      If you add too much ammonia lock or amquel to the water in the shipping bag, it will coat the gills or if you add both, cause a reaction ( formalin) and possibly kill the fish- I have seen this happen with large fish. Most Pros avoid this for exactly that reason. Instead they rely on the closed bag, bottled oxygen and the carbon dioxide/ pH dynamics I described.

    13. #13
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      JR:

      Slight shift in topic, but not really: I know how to raise pH . . . but if we had to lower pH to match a 6.4 or something, how is that done for a small amount of water (or *large*, for that matter)?


      Lee

    14. #14
      Fishbreeder is offline Resident fisheries biologist
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      I don;t know how other folks drop pH, but I use hydrochloric acid (muriatic).

      Works very well and isn;t toxic to the fish (as long as you don;t drop the pH too far too fast).

      I alwsy test a small amount of water to get an idea of how much acid I'll need to use. Also, be careful with acid, never add water to acid, always add acid to water. Use gloves and eye protection.

      Brett

    15. #15
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      OK, so if we are not to open the bag because it allows the co2 out and oxygen in, then how do we know the PH in the bag?
      D

    16. #16
      ma barker is offline Corsair Extraordinaire
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      Quote Originally Posted by Fishbreeder
      never add water to acid, always add acid to water.Brett
      Okay...I've not brave/stoopit enough to try it just to see what happens....so what does happen?
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    17. #17
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      Hi Guys, I use acedic acid from the photo shop.

    18. #18
      Lee B's Avatar
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      Yeh, what Doug said . . .

      Lee

    19. #19
      Fishbreeder is offline Resident fisheries biologist
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      Adding water to acid might cause the acid to splash out and get on you. Adding acid to water prevents this from being as likely.

      I'm surprised at JR using acetic acid to adjust pH. I've done it, but don;t like to use organic acids for that purpose. JR, you've always done it this way?

      With HCl (hydrochloric acid) you only get hydrogen ions and chloride ions, neither of which is toxic to the fish (unless you change the pH too fast).

      Other acidifiers like acid salts work, but are not so easy to use and some take a whole lot to effect a small change. Some acid salts I work with includes calcium sulfate and aluminum sulfate. Both of which can drop the pH.

      Doug, you almost gotta assume the pH in a shipping bag will be low. Of course you can;t test it till you open the bag, but once that is done, the time bomb starts to tick and you'd best get the fish into aerated water soon. Some places use an oxygen stone in the bags once they've been opened and before the fish are transferred to their new container.

      Brett

    20. #20
      JPR is offline Inactivated
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      Doug, get a large blue bowl and fill it with pond water/ quarantine water. You float the bag in the bowl. While the temperature is equalizing ( make sure you have removed the double or triple bags to allow for easier temp transfer) open the bag. Test the pH. IF the pH is lower than 6.6, adjust your pond water in the bowl to 6.6. You can use 'pH down' from the aquarium shop or acedic acid from the photo shop at a rate of one drop per 5 gallons ( this varies so check the pH as you go. Aerate the water in the bowl but not the bag as that will raise the pH in the bag. Once the pH and temperatures are similar/same, transfer the koi into the bowl and get rid of the plastic bag and old shipping water. Your new koi is now in well aerated , non ammonia laden water of the same pH as the bag 'was'. Now set up a drip with fish aquarium air hose ( a knot in it if the water is coming too fast)- this will now raise your bowl water towards your real pond/quarantine water's pH. This should happen over 30-40 minutes so make sure the bowl is covered! I use a koi net to cover the bowl.
      This technique has been used in marine import facilities and this simple act has cut import looses dramatically as the delicate marine fish is trapped between ammonia poisoning and pH shock upon arrival from the pacific ocean/ Indian ocean reefs.

      Brett, yep, I have used acedic acid for dips ( five drops per gallon for 1 minute) on tough costia to 'loosen' the well attached critters. Its a trick I picked up from Dr Stephen Meyers many years back. I suggested that as a pH killer but if you're not comfortable with it, the muractic acid or pH Down is easily had.

      JR

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