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    Thread: Skimmer is not sucking with pump on!

    1. #1
      vvnguyen1981 is offline Senior Member
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      Skimmer is not sucking with pump on!

      Hello,

      So I am currently in my pond build and wanted to see my TPR jet run so I decided to turn on the pump. The skimmer though is not sucking in water. Here is my setup below.

      I have a 16'x10'x4 pond. I have two 3" bottom drains connected to my Helix skimmer line which runs on a 2" line. All three connections go via 3" immediately into a 125 gallon drum. The pond water then goes to another 125 gallon drum which is directly gravity fed to my 8200GPH external pump. The external pump currently pumps water through my UV light and to my TPR jet. I currently have my three way valve only going to the TPR jet and not the waterfall.

      While the whole system is in motion, my skimmer is not sucking in water at all. It seems that both the bottom drains are working because the 1st 125 gallon drum is currently pulling water which then transfers water to the 2nd 125 gallon drum which is feeding the 8200GPH external pump.

      Is is possible I have air in my skimmer line? I tried searching the forum but can not find anything.

      Thanks in advanced.

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    2. #2
      tbullard is offline Senior Member
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      So you have 2 X 3" bottom drain lines and the 2" skimmer line all gravity flowing into the first barrel correct? I think your not pulling water from the skimmer due to the 2" line being out competed by the 2 X 3" lines. Maybe try attaching the skimmer line after the barrels just before the pump.


      Found the original post with drawings of the system that make it easier to follow. I think your problem was also addressed there https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...Vortex-filters
      Last edited by tbullard; 02-12-2017 at 03:21 AM.

    3. #3
      MCAsan is offline Senior Member
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      Sounds like it time for version 2 of the pond....with 4" bottom drains and pipes directly to a filter pit. Skimmer can use 3" or 4" to the filter pit.

    4. #4
      ricshaw is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by tbullard View Post
      So you have 2 X 3" bottom drain lines and the 2" skimmer line all gravity flowing into the first barrel correct? I think your not pulling water from the skimmer due to the 2" line being out competed by the 2 X 3" lines. Maybe try attaching the skimmer line after the barrels just before the pump.

      Found the original post with drawings of the system that make it easier to follow. I think your problem was also addressed there https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...Vortex-filters


      Not the best fix... but you could try connecting the skimmer line to the shorter bottom drain line with a sweeping drain tee to get a venturi effect to help pull water from the skimmer.


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    5. #5
      richtoybox's Avatar
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      If there is an up and then down in the plumbing from the skimmer to the connection point, then yes, there could be air trapped preventing the flow of water to the connection point. If you could block the two 3 inch lines, then the skimmer might overpower the air block and start to flow. If you were to use a sub pump with appropriate plumbing, you could blow the air out of the line. If it is not drawing at all, then there has to be some form of blockage.

      The arrangement that you have is not ideal, as you have too much draw from the barrels with that size pump, on too small of plumbing. From barrel to barrel, it should be 4 inch pipe, and may need double 4 inch pipe to prevent major draw down of the second barrel. The two bottom drains and the skimmer each should come into the first barrel without the restriction of combining in such a small pipe. Just not enough flow going into the first drum, with it all going through such a small pipe in a gravity flow situation. If each pipe went into the first drum, then you could add restriction there if needed for balance of the pipes.
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    6. #6
      vvnguyen1981 is offline Senior Member
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      Thanks for the quick responses everyone!

      So with only my TPR jet going, I found out a lot. RichToyBox is correct. Between both 125 gallon barrels, I have a 3" connection. The problem is my 8200 mph pump is drawing down the 2nd barrel (BIO) too fast! What I am hoping for is 2 things to solve this issue. Because I am only running from the pump straight through my UV into my TPR, I assume this will move a lot of water. Eventually, my 3-way valve will allow me to divert to my two water falls. One is my bio-falls and the other is just a simple spill way. With the head being roughly 14'-16' high on both falls, and my TPR jet going, I'm assuming my 2nd (BIO) barrel will not drain too fast.

      Next, I believe tbullard is correct. I think both my 3" bottom drains are out-competing my 2" skimmer line. I do not believe my skimmer line is airlock after reviewing my plumbing. What I will do is actually run the 2" skimmer line straight to the pump as well so the pump will be pulling from the skimmer as well my 2nd (BIO) drum. I'll probably do a 3-way valve there as well to control the correct water pressure.

      Again, this is my 1st time working with bottom drains and external pumps. My previous ponds all deployed submersible pumps and pressurized filters.

      Enjoy the photos!
      Attached Images Attached Images      

    7. #7
      vvnguyen1981 is offline Senior Member
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      More photos!
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    8. #8
      DarrenLucas is offline Junior Member
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      Unfortunately the way your plumbed your skimmer and drains won't work. 2" line is to small to pull down the floating weir in the skimmer. You will need to run a bypass directly to your pump to make this work.

    9. #9
      icu2's Avatar
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      I think you might regret plumbing these as pictured...

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/attach...1&d=1486954406

      I'm hoping for the best!
      --Steve



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    10. #10
      vvnguyen1981 is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I think you might regret plumbing these as pictured...

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/attach...1&d=1486954406

      I'm hoping for the best!
      Oh oh! That doesn't sound good. Can you expand on this thought? I tied both 3" bottom drains together and am running directly to my 1st vortex. Again, I will remove the 2" skimmer line off of this.

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    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by vvnguyen1981 View Post
      Oh oh! That doesn't sound good. Can you expand on this thought? I tied both 3" bottom drains together and am running directly to my 1st vortex. Again, I will remove the 2" skimmer line off of this.
      Tying the two 3" BD lines together limits You at that point to equal only one 3" line. So max You can gravity flow from both BD lines is cut in half. Then You used 2" pipe after that ,which cut the gravity flow in half again. Sorry, but You didn't listen to advice 4 months ago.
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...14#post2587214

      I think the only way to fix Your system now is with direct suction.... Direct to the pump through a Zacy Sieve

    12. #12
      RickF's Avatar
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      I agree that the lines are too small. I have two 4" bottom drains with separate pipes and my skimmer has a 6" line all gravity feeding a 75 gallon sump. From the sump, I am pumping between 6000 and 6200 GPH. A 2" line from the skimmer is just asking for it to become clogged with leaves.

    13. #13
      vvnguyen1981 is offline Senior Member
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      Thanks again for everyones unfiltered advice! So this weekend, I am just going to run the skimmer line directly to my pump. That way, my pump will be drawing from my skimmer along with my 2nd BIO barrel.

      It's been a great experience building so far. When I last posted and didn't take some of the advice offered, it was because I was overwhelmed by this new construction. Now that I am in the build, I am much more comfortable with everything.

      Take a look at my changes and let me know your thoughts. Again, I can make some changes. Obviously, I can't make any changes to the bottom drains but I could make small changes else where.
      Attached Images Attached Images  

    14. #14
      catfish whiskers's Avatar
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      That will help , but Your bottom drain lines will still be limited.
      If You spend $1200 ish on a Zaci sieve , You will be able to suck more from Your bottom drains.

    15. #15
      RickF's Avatar
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      Having the two bottom drains connected together is asking for trouble in the future. It will restrict the flow, and if one of them becomes clogged, you will have a difficult time detecting where the clog is and even more difficult time cleaning it. I would have separate lines from each bottom drain to the barrel. That will give you better flow, you can tell whether a line is clogged, and you can clean the clogged line from the barrel.

    16. #16
      vvnguyen1981 is offline Senior Member
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      I'll definitely do more research on the Zaci sieve and see if its still not too late to incorporate it.

      Let's hope the bottom drains don't get clogged out. I would assume I would have to dive down there and take the lid off and blast a hose line through each bottom drain if that occurs right? The good news is my yard is completely bare since this was a new construction so I'll definitely be careful with my landscape.

      Here's a photo of my waterfalls thus far. It's about 50% done.
      Attached Images Attached Images  

    17. #17
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      The way I clean my bottom drain lines when they clog is from the sump end. I put a drain bladder on the end of a garden hose and push it through the drain line as far as it will go. Then, I turn on the water until the bladder blocks the line, then turn the water off and pull on the hose as hard as I can. The bladder will suck most debris out of the line as it is pulled back. To make it easier, I use two hoses - one from the spigot to a hose shut-off valve and the other from the shut-off valve to the bladder. That way, I do not have to run back and forth between the pond and the spigot. I have never had to go into the pond to clear a line.

      With your lines being connected, if the clog is between the drain and the T (or Y), you are in trouble.

      The bladder I linked is for 4" to 6" lines, but they also have one for 1 1/2" to 3" lines.

    18. #18
      Zac Penn is offline Supporting Member
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      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/attach...1&d=1486954406


      The above picture shows another HUGE problem....
      You did not install a concrete collar around the perimeter of the pond. Then you installed a bunch of heavy rocks on top of the ground, and you are building a really big waterfall on one side of the pond that has no structural base to stop the liner from slip-n-sliding down the hill and into your pond. I have seen first hand what happens to a pond with out a concrete collar and rocks not he edge of the pond. Eventually (maybe not this year) the edge of the pond is going to collapse into the pond along with all of those rocks.

      You really need to stop construction, remove all of those rocks, then drain the pond down a foot or so, pull back the pond liner and create concrete forms around the pond. Then install some rebar in those forms, and pour a concrete collar around the pond. Then you can put the liner back down, and recreate the rock work.

      If your intended flow rate is going too be around the 8,000 gph mark then you will need the 24" Zakki Sieve in order for this to actually happen with your plumbing. A single 3" pipe is never going to gravity feed enough water into your barrels for this to work. With the 24" Zakki Sieve I can install a single 3" inlet and a single 2" inlet without any modifications to you currently plumbing plan. You will need to have the skimmer separate from the bottom drains though.

      If you don't want to go direct suction then you have to remove everything and redo your plumbing and install two 4" bottom drains and run two 4" pipes over to the filters. Then you will have to remove the barrels you have and install something MUCH larger to handle the kind of water flow you want. Lets say you want 6,000 gph through the bottom drains....You are going to need a 600 gallon vortex filter to settle out the debris.
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    19. #19
      EddiD is offline Senior Member
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      Those bottom drains aren't aerated, are they?
      If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!
      My build, slowly but surely coming along.

    20. #20
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      I am with Zac,very helpful advice. Please hold on to that waterfall and spend your time to do the concrete collar.
      Tony

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