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    Thread: Pattern...

    1. #1
      Jeff R. is offline Senior Member
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      Pattern...

      In another thread, in another Parish, the idea of a koi with no identifiable pattern (collector fish) would lose to an equally high grade koi which was smaller yet had a good pattern. Can someone elaborate on this for us? Are the patterns the same for all Gosanke? Are there a fixed number of Kohaku patterns upon which all else is built in Gosanke? Let's keep the discussion to Gosanke in order to better focus our thoughts, please. I look forward to the responses.
      Jeff R.
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    2. #2
      JPR is offline Inactivated
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      Hi Jeff, yes, there are certain standards for basic patterns in gosanke. And young fish especially should not deviate too far from the standard. As koi get larger and their conformation and quality become more apparent, they can stray from the 'rules' on pattern to some degree, but balance of a pattern is never off the table.
      Collector fish would be large conformation fish of excellent quality. They might not have a show pattern but have some dramatic element to there pattern that makes them note worthy. Make sense? JR

    3. #3
      Jeff R. is offline Senior Member
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      Somewhat. Are the basic patterns 2-step, 3-step, 4-step and inazumi (lightning bolt)? Are there others? What would be an example of a "dramatic element" that would make a particular fish noteworthy? Do you have any pictures to illustrate? Are we still talking a Kohaku pattern? What about a Sanke? Where would you wish for the sumi to be positioned? Is sumi on the beni or the shiro preferred? Is the sumi position important on Sanke? Showa? Please elaborate.
      Thank You,
      Jeff R.
      F'ubba

    4. #4
      Lynn is offline Inactivated
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      JR, just to jump onto Jeff's questions. The pattern should extend onto the head but not cover the yes as in a mask? But to the eyes is acceptable? And the fins, the hi should stop before the caudal? And never extend into the dorsal?

    5. #5
      Sarge's Avatar
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      Very good topic. Lynn, I always thought that for the pattern to extend over one or both eyes was a negative The pattern should extend on the head and preferably make a shoehorn type shape.

      James, what about the Odome? Is this a detractor if the pattern extends to the tail without a space?
      "Sarge"


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    6. #6
      Jeff R. is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
      JR, just to jump onto Jeff's questions. The pattern should extend onto the head but not cover the yes as in a mask? But to the eyes is acceptable? And the fins, the hi should stop before the caudal? And never extend into the dorsal?
      Good Morning Lynn:
      I am hoping that there will be some illumination on the recognized patterns and what they are based on. I have seen fantastic koi who had red extending into the dorsal. It can be a difficult subject because there is always a desire to find rules to follow and yet it seems to be more complex. Kind of like the artist must learn the rules to know when he can break them and still produce something extraordinary. IMHO the rules should only be brought into use when judging two koi of equal development that are very close. The remainder of the time, I think that the rules are influencing your view of a fish (as they must) and yet not slavishly. Hope that makes sense, because the question was for JR and I kind of butted in. Sorry. :o
      Jeff R.
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    7. #7
      Lynn is offline Inactivated
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      No, Jeff, thank you! I am at the point of trying to develop my eye. And thanks to boards like this one I have the opportunity to learn from many that are more learned than I.

    8. #8
      JPR is offline Inactivated
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      Good morning Koiphenians!
      I'm up and out early to the Quality koi harvest and auction. Its a few hours away so I'm running out now. But I would love to continue the conversation! I'll be back later tonight and WITH PICTURES! Please stay tuned! JR

    9. #9
      MikeM is offline Super Member
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      To appreciate pattern, I'd suggest Vol. I of Kodama's book. High quality koi are compared on the basis of pattern.

      When it comes to pattern, fashion changes. Certain features are absolutes, at least today. A solid red pectoral would not be acceptable. In the past red covering the eyes of Kohaku was a serious negative. Today, red covering one, but not both eyes, can be acceptable.

      Many of the "rules" reflect the negative qualities of a variety when it was being developed. Early Kohaku suffered from excessive red, spotting and other characteristics lingering from the early genetic development. Traits which were connected to wild ancestral roots of the variety became serious demerits. As the overall quality increases, the purpose behind some of these standards is no longer furthered, and the standard begins to bend and may eventually be discarded. So, there is both a degree of fadishness ("The All-Japan Grand Champ had a marking like that! I gotta buy that fish.") which influences judges (They are just people); and a recognition of progress in the refinement of the variety. This recognition allows one to perceive that a long-established standard should not be applied stringently when its purpose is not served.

      Imagine for a moment the most perfectly formed, blemish-free white body with skin so translucent you did not think a koi could glow like it. A perfect Maruten of the deepest blood red Hi, and every fin solid red in a matching blood red. That would be an incredible fish, but it would not match current thinking. The judges could classify her as Kawarimono to not disturb their sense of what constitutes Kohaku, but in choosing Grand Champ, would they give a nod to a kawari with the highest quality of any koi in the show? Or, would the red fins be so disturbing to settled expectations that they could not accept the idea? And, is the answer the same if in a district show in Japan the prior year such a fish had been awarded Best in over 32" ?

      But do not get the idea that it is just a matter of personal preferences. The standards of the day must reflect the progress of the genetics, and arise from an appreciation of the art of koi.

    10. #10
      Ray Jordan is offline The Rocket
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      Preferred Show Patterns

      I'll try to get us going until JR returns. Pattern is a huge topic to try to discuss in depth. Just thinking of kohaku and it's two colors. One of the basic elements is the relationship (location & % coverage) of the background skin color (white in Gosanke) by the accent color (red in kohaku) This is one reason why there is a strong preference for stepped patterns as they are considered more refined.

      In order of least preference(and most common occurance) kohaku patterns(steps) are one(Moyo), two(Nidan), three(Sandan), four(Yondan), and so on. The pattern is supposed to be interesting and balanced (front to back & side to side)the best are even surprizing. Think of the famous GC koi with names like "seven" or the "crown princess" etc. Also understand that the more unique and/or the more rare a "good" pattern the higher the appreciation in a show or value to purchase. A high quality Sandan is more appreciated than a high quality Two Step. Then there is the elusive Yondan - when is the last time you saw a surperb four step - "value/price" forget it!!

      Koi are also considered art. Kohaku are said to be a attempt to represent Cherry Blossoms on newly fallen snow. So think of a pleasing, surprizing, and artisic pattern of fallen cherry blossoms on newly fallen snow. It wouldn't be a random meaningless scattering of blossoms. It wouldn't be a big single patch of blossoms. It would be......

      I once heard a breeder talk about kiwa for over a hour. I didn't know how little I knew about it until I realized I had more questions afterh this lecture than before. Koi are amazing. The more you see the more you want to know.

      Here are just a few of the possible additional topics having to do with kohaku patterns that could be seperate discussions by themselves.

      head pattern/insertion
      mauratan vs larger 1st step that continues onto the shoulder
      kiwa/edge sharpness
      sashi/insertion of red scales under the white
      body wrap/preferred on largest step
      hi on face or fins/not preferred but usually present
      Shoulder stop (seperates great koi/read very expensive from good koi)
      tail stop (seperates great koi/read very expensive from good koi)
      symmetry of steps/1st step same size/position as last step

      Enough, I'd better stop here!

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    11. #11
      Jeff R. is offline Senior Member
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      Great Posts...

      Thank you for all the input. I look forward to considerably more as we try to navigate a part of this topic. I think Ray has an excellent idea in breaking this up into various threads. Perhaps if those in the know and our judges could start us off at the beginning, it would be a good place to start. When they feel like we have exhausted that topic then perhaps we could start another related thread; i.e. Ray's suggestion -
      head pattern/insertion
      mauratan vs larger 1st step that continues onto the shoulder
      kiwa/edge sharpness
      sashi/insertion of red scales under the white
      body wrap/preferred on largest step
      hi on face or fins/not preferred but usually present
      Shoulder stop (seperates great koi/read very expensive from good koi)
      tail stop (seperates great koi/read very expensive from good koi)
      symmetry of steps/1st step same size/position as last step

      or wherever we are led. It would be nice if the Thread titles could be "Pattern..." where the next topic is filled in after the "...". This will make it much easier to do a search and come up with a comprehensive group of threads concerning pattern. Thank you again for your contributions. I look forward to more contributors and much mroe time being devoted to this fascinating aspect of our hobby. JR & Ray - Great Start!! Bob Winkler, Dr Phillips, Tim Waddington, Steve Childers & others - where are you?
      Jeff R. :D :D
      F'ubba

    12. #12
      danm is offline Master Bug Photographer
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      The saying "the more you learn, the more you realize what you don't know" especially applies to koi appreciation! I'm admittedly a tosai in my journey, so my first 'good' koi is of course a kohaku, "the beginning and the end of koi appreciation". Threads like this are very valuable, thanks all!

    13. #13
      Blammo's Avatar
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      This is a good classic on selecting sanke.
      I tried to link but... as usual... the AKCA site is ...welll...

      by Dr. Arthur Lembke Selecting a good sanke, when the fish are 4-8 inches in length, is very similar to selecting a good kohaku. The head of the sanke, as in all varieties of koi, is one of the most important things to look at. The head should be the exact same head as you would buy in a kohaku. There must be red on the head and the red should go down to the nostrils. The nose is better if it is white. One eye may be covered in red as long as the red is not over-powering. Red is too over-powering when it covers both eyes. THERE MUST NOT BE ANY BLACK ON THE HEAD.
      Next look for an interesting pattern of red all the way down the body. Do not pick a koi with only red on the front half or on the back half of the body. If you have followed the above steps, you will notice you now have a good kohaku.
      Now we must add the black. It is best if the first black spot is on the shoulder (not on the head). If there is no black until further back on the fish, the head can look too elongated. The rest of the black further back on the fish should be in a nice pattern that is balanced and preferably in the white areas rather than on the red. Some black on the red pattern is alright but the more black in the white the better. The black spots are better if not much larger than a quarter and should not distract from the red pattern.
      Modern sankes are basically kohakus with a few small black spots placed in the white field. Red should take up about 70% of the fish, the black about 10%, and the rest white.
      At an early stage, look for a fish with a lot of interesting red and very little black. Black tends to come out later and if you start with too much black, the black may be too powerful later. The red may be bright red or orange-red because the red can improve with age. The white should be snow white or slightly pink white. Black develops later, so pick one with only a little black that is balanced now. Avoid any sanke that has a lot of small, black, peppery like spots. Pepper like spots can be a sign of poor quality.
      The fins on the sanke should be either all white or white with black stripes. There should be no red in any of the fins. Be careful buying an early sanke with many black stripes in the pectoral fins. These sometimes develop too much black at a later stage.
      Again, as in all koi, look for broad shoulders, large skull, and large pectoral fins for good growth potential. Make sure there are no defects or disease on the fish. Happy koi keeping.
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    14. #14
      Dr J I Phillips's Avatar
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      Hi Jeff
      I am late on this one. I think a lot of good information has been given already.
      In any judging scheme be it the more traditional
      Body shape 50%, Colour 30%, pattern 20%.
      Or Body shape 30%, colour 20%, pattern 20%, quality 10%, refinement 10%, character 10%. You can see pattern is only 20% of the marks. Not that judges formally give marks out of 100. It is a guide to relative importance.
      I beleive the point has already been made that in small Koi, it is difficult to separate body shapes and refinement and elegance etc so pattern does assume more importance. Providing the overall quality is uniform, small Koi with pattern flaws are going to lose out. In larger Koi the overall volume and presence of the Koi becomes more important and minor pattern flaws can be overlooked in the context of the whole Koi. Koi are also a form of art and a nice balanced sandan kohaku may appear boring to some while a unique maruten might be considered interesting and giving the Koi character. Again attributes like character are more appropriate to larger Koi.
      There is also the fashion element. In a way this is not so much fashion per se but the the way the quality of Koi have evolved. Long ago, I suppose you had to be strict with the criteria for Kohaku - red above the lateral line. No red in any fins etc etc. Now, good kohaku are plentiful and the basics patterns are available. If the hi is more wrapping, or if there is a little ball of hi in the base of the pectorals; this may not be so serious if the hi is of tremendous quality.
      Personally, I like a fairly evenly spaced and sized sandan (3 step pattern)pattern, but I have read in magazines eg Nichirin about prize winning Koi that are described as having a boring sandan pattern. I suppose now a sandan pattern is common place, something unique and interesting comes at a premium. Personally, I do not find a traditional sandan pattern boring, but I can appreciate a unique pattern (as long as it is balanced). A year ago I had the choice of 3 Japanese bred Kohaku. I chose the one with (in my opinion and the dealer's) the worst pattern. This Koi had the best skin quality. Now the Koi is bigger, the pattern is looking better and the quality is still there. The pattern has to be balanced though, not all at the head end or all on one side. Some pattern elements are a matter of personal preference. It depends somewhat on the overall pattern but generally, I like kuchibeni (lipstick) while others find it gaudy and distracting. That is why in a close contest, not all the judges will agree and the winner is decided by ballot.
      I like Douglas' description of Sanke. To me a good sanke must be a good kohaku, enhanced by well placed sumi.
      Here is a Kohaku with a wrapping pattern and a head marking that barely reaches the level of the eyes.
      Attached Images Attached Images  

    15. #15
      JPR is offline Inactivated
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      Morning! The discussion of pattern would be out of sequence if you don’t talk about the frame it is on ( the body) OR the white ground which acts as the canvas to set off the pattern.

      True students of nishikigoi must FIRST learn Jitai. This is the relationship between body and skin type and is the fundamental and most important part of judging a koi. Quite often a new exhibitor will buy a killer pattern on a koi with very poor jitai and then wonder why the judges ignored such a nicely patterned animal in the competition?
      A koi’s BODY shape is important. Especially in larger fish. In small fish, were color/finish and pattern dominate the decision, ‘body’ in the classic sense of the word, I.E. BIG, is not as important as Jitai. A perfectly proportioned male in size two with exceptional shiroji ( white ground color and skin type) is far superior to a chubby female with slightly yellowed skin.
      So jitai is number one. Then pattern must fit the body! This moves us into a difficult area of Japanese esthetics. Balance is important in koi appreciation. But it is not necessarily the same ‘ balance’ the western eye sees. You may say, “who cares! WE are in the USA and so is the fish!!!” But this would be ego eccentric because the fish you buy are culled and priced according to the Japanese sense of taste and priced accordingly! You won't see a chagoi winning a Japanese koi show but westerns pay big bucks for fish that are considered table fare in Japan!
      Pattern is appreciated for this artist merit as well as level of difficulty. Gosanke, are refined nishikigoi. As such, the color pattern is located ON The dorsal area of the fish. A wrap is desirable ( down to the lateral line) but not below the line. And Dan or stepped patterns are extremely desirable as they turn the simple carp into a complete work of art. That is, the body, Jitai and hi plates come together best for show purposes in Dan or stepped patterns. This is the ‘center of the universe’ for ALL JAPAN show type champions.
      So pattern standards are built around these basic concepts. How far away these patterns drift from the standard is dependent upon the next levels of critical review- quality and subjectivity.
      This gets complicated and drifts off the subject so I’ll return to basic pattern—

      Fundamentally, kohaku and sanke of high show value will be –

      Nidan- a simple two step pattern
      Sandan- three step pattern
      Yondan- Four step pattern
      Godan - Five step pattern

      Before this, in more ‘wild type’ primitive patterns we might see omoyo and ‘aka’ types. Inazumi would be a slight evolution to this pattern class and is more about ‘ economics’ and sales than about producing high class show types. But subjectivity in judging is important here as some very impressive individual koi can emerge from these lower evolved patterned fish. Just NOT as general rule.
      Finally, because pattern is art, taste of the day can make for “fish of the day”! This is fine, natural and part of the evolution of nishikigoi. But things should not spin off their axis in the review of odd ball patterns.
      Running long again—
      JR

    16. #16
      Dr J I Phillips's Avatar
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      Thanks JR, I'm still trying with jitai and appreciate all the information.
      The Koi I posted, above, looks inelegant to me. I do not like the wrapping pattern or the truncated katsuberra, giving a bald look to the head . The Koi won a ZNA Chapter show in Japan though. Its other qualities overcame its pattern.

    17. #17
      Bob Winkler's Avatar
      Bob Winkler is offline Tooth Carpenter, Wine Drinker, but always Koi Kichi
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      Higher quality, with good pattern will usually beat out size and slightly less pattern. The degree of difficulty in raising a large quality koi has to be considered, or "weighted" against a smaller, good patterned/ quality koi.

      I happen to know the two koi Jeff mentioned in the first post rather intimately. They are both mine and were in a recent show competing for GC with each other. Well, I think it is the two koi he meant, but if not illustrate his question and "dilemma" well.

      One is an 4 year old Isawa Sakai 24" Inazuma Kohaku with many good qualities. Good beni, great white (better than the picture shows) and wonderful skin. Soft and silky, with incredible Fukirin. Nice fish, but still has a year or two b4 she is really show ready. Not finished. Nor am I biased, can you tell? :p The other koi is a 6 year old Isa Showa that is 33.5". The conformation is perfect, and very rare to see in a koi this size. The sumi is also perfect through out the koi, with pretty good white, but the beni (red) was breaking up. So she is over the hill, but impressive in a pond setting. And very friendly, so fun to have. You could say that the pattern on both are good, but each have their shortcomings.

      I knew the smaller one had a chance for a big award, but the bigger one, while a nice fish is not in the same class anymore. Of course, I have had a long time to study them both. The Kohaku is the fish that wins easily, although almost 10" smaller. It is a much more complete koi. All elements are there, while the Showa is incomplete in the very important beni. If the beni was solid, but not well placed, it would win easily. Or if I could just get it to become a Shiro Utsuri. Which it may be in a couple years. The size, conformation, and sumi quality would be too much to overcome. But here they are, so you can decide yourself. The Showa is too big for my bowl, so I don't have the greatest picture of her. Arrg.. the pictures on my computer arent working.. will try later to post them.

      Best regards,

      Bob Winkler

    18. #18
      Bob Winkler's Avatar
      Bob Winkler is offline Tooth Carpenter, Wine Drinker, but always Koi Kichi
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      Found some not so good pics of these two koi, but you can get the idea. Which would you vote for as GC?
      Attached Images Attached Images   

    19. #19
      Sarge's Avatar
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      Kohaku Pattern seems more equitable on the koi
      "Sarge"


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    20. #20
      Bob Winkler's Avatar
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      Right Sarge, the Pattern on the Kohaku is better than the one on the Large Showa. That is what Jeff was asking originally, I think. When does a smaller better patterned koi beat a larger, less patterned one. Here were two koi just like that, 10" apart in size. The smaller one isn't so small. 24". The big one is huge and pretty decent on it's own. The kohaku does not have the perfect show pattern either tho, so it gives an "opening" there. It's shortcoming is no Odome, and the beni is not quite finished. She will look better when 28"+ in my opinion. A pretty good Sandan or even Nidan Kohaku would have beaten her. Or maybe this 5 step Iggy Sanke, when it's sumi is finished.

      In any case, the judges at this show agreed. They voted the Kohaku GC and the Showa was best in Size 6. So the point many have made is bigger is not always better. But it sure can be fun.

      Best Regards,

      Bob Winkler
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