KHA is changing-

[Popfish]

It has come to my attention that Karen Pattist has submitted her resignation to AKCA as KHA Program Director. In addition, our highly respected founder, Spike Cover, has resigned. I have the utmost respect in what Spike and Karen have accomplished and in how they have developed and supported the KHA program.

I am concerned that AKCA will not feel that supporting the KHA program is a priority - as with their proposal to terminate the KHA insurance - and thus I have also submitted my resignation.

THANK YOU, Spike and Karen for the thousands of Koi that have been saved and the hundreds of pond owners that have been educated by the KHA program. No one can ever take that away from you!

I respectfully suggest that, if you share my concerns, you contact Karen Pattist.

Steve

[Sarge]

If the KHA program were to go it would be a huge impact across the country. I sincerely hope that whatever the cause for this impasse folks will put personal differences aside and look at the greater good of the KHA program.

[lukef]

KHA
That's the strangest rudderless boat I ever did see...
the definition of practicing veterinary medicine always includes advising the owner of an animal on a health aspect of that animal...and koi health Advisors were suppose to do what?
And it is against the law to practice veterinary medicine without a license. Advising a home owner to treat their koi with any remedy would be illegal, never mind actually doing something.

[koiman1950]

If the AKCA drops/dropped the KHA insurance, that leaves all the KHAs without an umbrella, or parachute against liability issues. If this is the cause of it all, and the crap going on about them on the boards, if I was one, I'd be hittin' the road as well. Sorry to see Spike go in this direction, but I can certainly understand, after all he's done and means to the hobby as a whole. I don't know about Karen enough to comment other than to say I wish her well and hope she continues to be a force in the hobby in another avenue.

Mike

[Carl]

KHA
That's the strangest rudderless boat I ever did see...
the definition of practicing veterinary medicine always includes advising the owner of an animal on a health aspect of that animal...and koi health Advisors were suppose to do what?
And it is against the law to practice veterinary medicine without a license. Advising a home owner to treat their koi with any remedy would be illegal, never mind actually doing something.

It's more complicated than that. The laws vary from state to state but for the most part they are intended to prevent the unlicensed practice of veterinary medicine for monetary gain. Free advice is usually not a problem, depending on the jurisdiction, or we all would be in jeopardy because we all give advice.

The AKCA would have been wise to hire attorneys to help design the program. However, the fact that there has never been a lawsuit against a kha is a testament to the quality of the program.

Any problems with the program should have been addressed and the program should have been cultivated. Instead, the same people did what they always do and chased good people out of the AKCA.

It's a shame.

[CHICHI]

Words Fail Me !

[deg1952]

I was looking at the KHA application forms last night and had decided to apply and start the program. Now I guess I'll wait and see what happens.

[Popfish]

People are always blaming their circumstances for what they are. I don't believe in circumstances. The people who get on in this world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want, and, if they can't find them, make them.

George Bernard Shaw

So, maybe we can get Karen to start a whole new Koi Health program to better meet the future needs of all hobbiest, wherever they are and whatever their affiliation. Lets make that happen!

[Sarge]

People are always blaming their circumstances for what they are. I don't believe in circumstances. The people who get on in this world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want, and, if they can't find them, make them.

George Bernard Shaw

So, maybe we can get Karen to start a whole new Koi Health program to meet our needs. What about that??

Not so sure there needs to be an 'our needs' in there. The KHA Program should be free of politics and focused on assisting with issues of all koi regardless of their owner's particular affiliation.

Not saying that to start a fight - just stating that this is an area that should not be a 'us vs them' type scenario

[Popfish]

Not so sure there needs to be an 'our needs' in there. The KHA Program should be free of politics and focused on assisting with issues of all koi regardless of their owner's particular affiliation.

Not saying that to start a fight - just stating that this is an area that should not be a 'us vs them' type scenario

True, and I agree. Thanks. Will edit that sentence!

[MikeM]

If the AKCA drops/dropped the KHA insurance, that leaves all the KHAs without an umbrella, or parachute against liability issues.
Mike

??? There was never any liability insurance covering KHAs. Those who thought there was insurance were misinformed or misunderstood.

[Joey S]

??? There was never any liability insurance covering KHAs. Those who thought there was insurance were misinformed or misunderstood.

Well, there certainly were a lot of folks that misunderstood. How come YOU were so informed. One thing for sure, there is NO insurance now. But then there's no Director either. Very sad state of affairs. Guess I can modify my siggy now.

[hacnp]

The insurance thing that is. I am not in the KHA program and know a couple of folks who won't take the course due to the restrictions placed on the members of that program. The lack of insurance is baloney IMHO as anyone who has the high dollar fish that would cause a huge lawsuit award if anything went amiss should be able and willing to call a REAL vet to look at a problem.

The AKCA as I understand it was thinking along the lines of self insurance, not a good idea IMO as it lays it all out there if a lawsuit happens then the AKCA's existence itself could be at risk.

In today's sue happy society someone who helps a fellow hobbiest is just going to have to be savvy about who he or she helps and what he does, as well as accepting some risk if helping a fellow hobbiest with a problem. I have done this (helped someone out) a couple of times and would do so again.

People helped me when I started in the hobby and its only right to pay it forward.

[lukef]

It's more complicated than that. The laws vary from state to state but for the most part they are intended to prevent the unlicensed practice of veterinary medicine for monetary gain. Free advice is usually not a problem, depending on the jurisdiction, or we all would be in jeopardy because we all give advice.

The AKCA would have been wise to hire attorneys to help design the program. However, the fact that there has never been a lawsuit against a kha is a testament to the quality of the program.

Any problems with the program should have been addressed and the program should have been cultivated. Instead, the same people did what they always do and chased good people out of the AKCA.

It's a shame.

Carl,
I'd have loved if the money part you add in was actually part of it..but it ain't. Pure and simple it ain't.
if a KHA misdiagnosed a situation,and did tell someone to do something and it killed their fish, and the KHA had said I am a KHA I took the KHA course offered by the AKCA. And I got my badge. How successful would a lawsuit be?

hey i haven't been sued for providing aid to people with distressed fish..so me and the KHA are equally as successful.

Now in case you think i have stated i am against the KHA's. i am not. i am against them not positioning themselves correctly to begin with.
KHA's should have been never been called KHA's. Something cute like "Koi Candystriper" or "Koi Buddy" .
Something less pretentious than "Koi Health Advisor". Just the title would get you behind the legal eight ball.
Then never give out a certificate. After someone takes the Koi Buddy course their percentile scores are posted in the AKCA website. When a Koi Buddy is contacted by a distressed koi hobbyist. they are told to go to the AKCA Site and look at the percentile scores of the person they are considering look at their koi.
When the Koi Buddy shows up at the pond, the hobbyist must fill out a form with the percentile scores written on it stating they understand that the Koi buddy" is just a good Samaritan, and is not in any way shape form or fashion a "Koi Health Advisor". And that what the koi Buddy saids is not gospel, nor is it in any way a plan that the Hobbyist should blindly accept.

A worse possible name than "Koi Health Advisor"?
Hmm... " The Officially trained guy to tell you what to do"

[Ryan S.]

I thought the advisor name was OK. If I screw up a company's computer I'm pretty sure they don't sue Microsoft b/c I'm a MCSE (Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer). I would think a organization could just look at other methods of minimizing risk, have a seperate LLC do the certification, attorney help in waivers for each state and certification writing, volunteer insurance appears to be cheap, etc.

[luke-gr]

Im just catching up to this news so not sure what prompted these actions other than what I have read in this thread. I did hear on the radio that a couple folks in an adjoining county are being charged with practicing vet med without a license.

[Carl]

Carl,
I'd have loved if the money part you add in was actually part of it..but it ain't. Pure and simple it ain't.
if a KHA misdiagnosed a situation,and did tell someone to do something and it killed their fish, and the KHA had said I am a KHA I took the KHA course offered by the AKCA. And I got my badge. How successful would a lawsuit be?

hey i haven't been sued for providing aid to people with distressed fish..so me and the KHA are equally as successful.

Now in case you think i have stated i am against the KHA's. i am not. i am against them not positioning themselves correctly to begin with.
KHA's should have been never been called KHA's. Something cute like "Koi Candystriper" or "Koi Buddy" .
Something less pretentious than "Koi Health Advisor". Just the title would get you behind the legal eight ball.
Then never give out a certificate. After someone takes the Koi Buddy course their percentile scores are posted in the AKCA website. When a Koi Buddy is contacted by a distressed koi hobbyist. they are told to go to the AKCA Site and look at the percentile scores of the person they are considering look at their koi.
When the Koi Buddy shows up at the pond, the hobbyist must fill out a form with the percentile scores written on it stating they understand that the Koi buddy" is just a good Samaritan, and is not in any way shape form or fashion a "Koi Health Advisor". And that what the koi Buddy saids is not gospel, nor is it in any way a plan that the Hobbyist should blindly accept.

A worse possible name than "Koi Health Advisor"?
Hmm... " The Officially trained guy to tell you what to do"

Actually, a lot of jurisdictions have exemptions for the gratuitous treatment of someone else's animal in the case of an emergency. Some don't even include fish in their definition of animal for the purpose of defining the practice of veterinarian medicine and others will not prosecute if there was no charge for services (but NEVER rely on the exercise of prosecutorial discretion).

The liability issues could have been handled. This was mostly about a power grab.

[six6guy]

Does the KHA program have to remain under the AKCA? Can it be independent of that group?

Brad

[cindy]

Actually, a lot of jurisdictions have exemptions for the gratuitous treatment of someone else's animal in the case of an emergency. Some don't even include fish in their definition of animal for the purpose of defining the practice of veterinarian medicine and others will not prosecute if there was no charge for services (but NEVER rely on the exercise of prosecutorial discretion).

The liability issues could have been handled. This was mostly about a power grab.

Correct. As long as I don't represent my self as a vet, Ky's law's are pretty open. One of the requirements of the kha program was to have a vet to work with. Luckily my best friend is a vet and very open to helping with fish problems.

[Carl]

Does the KHA program have to remain under the AKCA? Can it be independent or that group?

Brad

I don't know if it matters what you call it, but if people are chased away from the AKCA they tend to come here. If they want to start something within the auspices of our club, I am sure they would be welcome provided we resolve the liability issues, etc.

But I wouldn't be surprised if the people that run the program would eschew tying themselves to any club at this point. Maybe they will go on their own.