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  • Page 48 of 62 FirstFirst ... 384546474849505158 ... LastLast
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    Thread: Anoxic Filtration.

    1. #941
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      Quote Originally Posted by stevek View Post
      Can someone refer me to a description of what these biocensus baskets are ?...
      Here you go buddy... get a cup of coffee because you'll be reading for a while.
      Last edited by monomer; 07-24-2013 at 12:36 PM.
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    2. #942
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      "Can someone refer me to a description of what these biocensus baskets are ? "
      Steve, Lots to be read at the link that monomer provided, and lots on this thread. I have been reading this heavily this week and am going to try it out in the next few days. My pond set up like yours is ready to go with some water garden areas attached. I have all of the supplies and will report back with my results.
      If I can summarize what I have read-
      Fill 11 x 11 x 7 mesh basket with unscented, no additives, non clumping cat litter, about 2-4 inches. put a cup of laterite in the center in a slight depression. layer some more cat litter over it and plants [roots washed fairly clean] and then top with a heavy pebble to hold things in place. Put the basket in a bog or water garden like area that has good flow past it and back into pond.
      This system is not dependent on the plant activity. To the extent that a plant can clean water your plants already are. The system can be done without plants. The science behind it is that the laterite due to electrical field/ ions will draw pollutants towards it and into the pot. The anoxic conditions which we all fear are only deep within the pot in that fistful of laterite. It does not make your pond anoxic, your bog or anything else. Just the sweet spot of laterite is anoxic. This anoxic condition deep within the pot creates a different type of bacterial growth than exists in most pond systems, and this bacterial activity is very effective at processing what we need processed.
      Very simplistic review but might help to have that overview before you dig deeper.

    3. #943
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      Thanks- that's a good short description. By the way, there is a product that is used for drying out baseball infields called Turface , which is nothing more than baked clay granules. It is much cheaper than cat litter, and doesn't cloud the water. It comes in big bags ( 25 or 50 pounds ) I have been using this year for potting plants, and I like it better than other dirt products I have used. It doesn't contain any nutrients, but I seem to get enough from fish waste to grow plants well.

    4. #944
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      Steve,
      from what I have read that product [Turface] should be suitable. Others have mentioned an oil absorbing product used by auto repair shops. Sounds like for the minor cost of some laterite and the time investment of repotting your plants you can create biocensus pots. Keep us posted.

    5. #945
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      I started reading about this anoxic filtration. What I don't understand is all the frustration and disagreements. I stopped reading the posts after awhile...it's rather long. Has anyone tried to do any experiments on this? Like a empty tank (perhaps a spare quarantine tank) and put a few of these biocenosis baskets with no plants in there, maybe put in a air pump / diffuser to move air around a little and pour in some good old ammonia (controlled amounts, of course).

      If the ammonia level drops or becomes undetectable while nitrate levels remains to be zero, then anoxic filtration wins! If not, then maybe something else is going on.

      Too bad I had to give up the hobby a few months ago (relocating)...otherwise this would be a cool experiment to run.

      Gordon
      Gordon

    6. #946
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      Quote Originally Posted by gckw View Post
      I started reading about this anoxic filtration. What I don't understand is all the frustration and disagreements. I stopped reading the posts after awhile...it's rather long. Has anyone tried to do any experiments on this? Gordon
      Yes, one guy did some very controlled experiments, using 3 identical setups.

      steve

    7. #947
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      9 days ago I removed all of my plants and repotted them as Biocensus pots. I have three large planters that my skimmer water runs through. I removed 6 Iris planters, hacked away at their very substantial roots and repotted them in kitty litter with 1 cup of laterite buried in the middle of the pot. I am sure that I lost a lot of filtration with all of the roots hacked away, so didn't expect results too quickly. My parameters have always been good, just clarity suffers during the hot stretch of summer. Well, I am happy to say that I can see the bottom of my 4' deep pond. I could only see about 2' down 9 days ago, by day 7 I was seeing the bottom. I still do not have "gin clear" water, but feel that I am well on my way. It should be noted that we have had cooler temps the last 9 days. That may have played a part also, but I do expect filtration to improve as my freshly planted plants get those roots back outside of the mesh baskets and start filtering too.

    8. #948
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      So with all of the trash talking about this system, while I was waiting to see how the Anoxic system would work I built a "Birdman" sand and gravel filter. I call mine the "dog-man" as it follows the concepts of Birdmans, but with modifications made by myself, a dog lover. Anyhow, my dog-man SG filter had to fit in a space 7 inches wide, 48 long and 24 high. To build the tank I used cedar 2 x 6 for the ends and bottom and did the sides in concrete backer board. I ran two PVC pipes into the bottom [1 inch], one for water input and parallel to that one for air input for backwashing. Put grate over the two pipes and filled with gravel, pea gravel, and chicken grit. By day 14 of my new biocensus pots my water was nearly gin clear. I added my dog-man filter and now have crystal clear, I dare say gin clear water. To recap, two circuits, #1-skimmer [panty hose for catch filter] goes thru a cheap Home Depot mesh and bio balls filter [rated for 1000 gallons] then into three big planters full of 6 biocensus pots and then gravity flows into pond. Circuit 2 pumps off the bottom of pond [no BD] up into a Laguna pressure flo filter [with backwash, rated for 2100 gals] into my dog-man filter then gravity flow back into pond. Returns are pointed to create circular motion to direct water around to submersible pump that has an aerator just above it. No BD, no sieve, no settle chamber. 1500 gals using 135 watts [20w UV in Laguna]. My current view on Anoxic- a great addition to supplement other systems. As a side note, my three hounds that hang around the pond all choose to drink from one of the planters with two biocensus pots in it. This pot is harder to get at/drink from, but is their preferred drinking water. What does that say?

    9. #949
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      Quote Originally Posted by mplskoi View Post
      So with all of the trash talking about this system, while I was waiting to see how the Anoxic system would work ....

      ...As a side note, my three hounds that hang around the pond all choose to drink from one of the planters with two biocensus pots in it. This pot is harder to get at/drink from, but is their preferred drinking water. What does that say?
      That global warming (climate change) is caused by anoxic plant filters and dogs will take over the earth.

      steve

    10. #950
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pond,James_Pond View Post
      That global warming (climate change) is caused by anoxic plant filters and dogs will take over the earth.

      steve

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    11. #951
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      Any chance of a video of your "dogman" filter. Sounds neat.

    12. #952
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      Cottagefog- I have some pics. Will try figure out how to post them in a few days when time permits.

    13. #953
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      Personal Life Experience will draw us to what NEXT appeals to us INDIVIDUALLY regardless of what anyone else think`s says does etc .. we KNOW that intrinsically ...

      In light of that and (minus prejudice) I decided to convert my small Pond into a Plant ( mainly Bulrush) filtered system given results gleaned from `Sewage Treatment` trial information .. namely their capacity to not only convert Nitrogenous waste effortlessly .. but also Sanitize/Neutralize harmful Bacteria during the process ...

      TDS/ORP values have actually improved subsequently

      PH even despite copious rainfall rarely impacts KH given little Bio influence is involved here ..

      The Downside being Supersaturation of O2 during Summer daytime which cannot be `BUFFERED` into submission short of a KH of 40 dh = to 40 x 17.6 ....

      Stilling the water at such times allows CO2 to remain in situ thereby quelling degassing of such ..

      It will require future tweaking But so does everything else

    14. #954
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      It would be great if testers could provide data. For me data and being able to duplicate results is convincing. Terms like "improved subsequently" are difficult to quantify.

      Proving any new concept is difficult. Expect the bar to be high and the process unpleasant. Data can help.

    15. #955
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      Quote Originally Posted by Waterbug View Post
      It would be great if testers could provide data. For me data and being able to duplicate results is convincing. Terms like "improved subsequently" are difficult to quantify.

      Proving any new concept is difficult. Expect the bar to be high and the process unpleasant. Data can help.

      Improved ? is a touch vague I appreciate

      I was stunned actually ... that all parameters (Am/Nit/Nat) remained at ZERO despite topping up evaporation water has been the only replenishment this Pond has received ..
      ...

    16. #956
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      Ok People.

      I have a suggestion. Proposal.

      As you all saw from my construction thread. own place now, perm pond construction happening Jul somewhere. my mid winter.

      It WILL be an anoxic set up. For testing and standardisation purposes i will not place plants in the baskets.

      I will give full and precise coverage and pictures.

      Please list the tests and recorded data you would like to see.

      Lay it all out. ask everything and anything.

      (p.s i will NOT do a mid winter dip in the pond in a borat costume and post pics of it. NO! )
      Dave.

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    17. #957
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
      p.s i will NOT do a mid winter dip in the pond in a borat costume and post pics of it. NO!
      Well, that WAS going to be my initial suggestion to you (not!), but since you are opposed to that idea.......

      I have found discrete scientific claims difficult to pin down for this system, but from the most coherent information I can locate on the internet:
      (http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/ano...on_part_1.html), a couple of points emerge. Quoted text is taken verbatim from the website:

      1. According to the information provided, ammonia in the water is drawn towards the center of the *biocenosis baskets.* As described, this is a chemical/physical process, and is not based on the establishment of bacterial colonies:

      ” please just accept that ammonia molecules are attracted into the baskets by the negative electrical charges that exist within it…… Another important feature to understand is that it is only the ammonia molecules that are drawn into biocenosis baskets. Obviously, water floods into them when they are immersed, but after that, water doesn’t actually need to flow through them in order to filter out ammonia. The electrical charges in the centre of the basket only draws in ammonia molecules; it doesn’t draw in water molecules.”

      For your analysis, then, measuring ammonia/ammonium levels would seem to be important. This would be particularly relevant during the initial phase of the pond break-in, where a more conventional nitrogen-cycle type of bacterial colonization often results in a peak of ammonia prior the bacteria becoming established on the bio-filtration media.

      2. Once established, the bacterial colonies established within the biocenosis baskets reportedly perform some different metabolic processes than those observed with conventional nitrification:

      “With the anoxic system, ammonia is either converted directly to nitrogen gas, (more correctly called di-nitrogen), by bacterial action in the unplanted baskets, or it is taken up by plant roots in baskets that also contain plants.”

      Since you will be evaluating without the use of plants, monitoring ammonia levels would again seem to be a pretty important part of any evaluation of the system.

      3. The website description adds that the typical nitrification pathway is also occurring:

      “Ammonia is also being nitrified throughout the whole pond…..It may not be immediately obvious but there are also ample opportunities for the nitrogen cycle to take place actually within the biocenosis baskets themselves. The baskets are underwater and so, stating the obvious, all surfaces of the clay particles are wet. The water that is just inside the baskets will also be rich in oxygen and carbonate, so we have an ideal place for nitrifying bugs to set up home and to convert ammonia to nitrate.”

      Based on this, monitoring ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels would all seem to be important parameters to follow. To what extent is standard nitrification taking place, as opposed to some other pathway?

      4. The explanation on the website seems to describe a denitrification process occurring within the biocenosis baskets:

      “Remember the nitrate that was produced by the nitrogen cycle bugs? The chemical symbol for nitrate is NO3, (one atom of nitrogen, joined to three atoms of oxygen). For a facultative anaerobic heterotroph, this is a feast. It can easily take the three oxygen atoms and leave the nitrogen…….when there was little or no oxygen available, as in zone C, their [bacteria] first trick was to obtain some by taking the atoms of oxygen from any nitrate that had been produced by the nitrifying bacteria…”

      Actually removing nitrogen – in some form – from the water is a pretty major issue. This explanation underscores the importance of tracking ammonia and – most importantly – nitrate levels over time as the pond matures.

      In summary, then, most of the operative claims associated with anoxic filtration center on the fate of ammonia and nitrate. I would monitor nitrite levels as well. Do bear in mind that a *proper* scientific experiment would include both experimental and controlled systems under comparison. This concept, however, is impractical for most backyard ponders. Given enough time, though, following these three water parameters should tell you a lot about the system performance.

      Best of luck with your efforts.

    18. #958
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      Good luck Dave. I am still a few months away from finishing my anoxic setup. When its finished, I will be updating my construction post with pics and results.
      Practicing Pescetarian

    19. #959
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      Ok, Thanks so far.

      Comprehensive test results for.

      A. Pond Test Results Required.
      1. Ammonia
      2. Nitrite
      3. Nitrate
      4. KH
      5. DH
      6. Temperature

      B. Test of results of top up water, from flushing settlement chambers.
      1. Ammonia
      2. Nitrite
      3. Nitrate.
      4. Temperature

      C. Analysis of Anoxic Chamber/Baskets.

      What ideas here???


      Keep the Questions Coming.
      What concerns you about This Filtration System?
      Dave.

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    20. #960
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
      Ok, Thanks so far.

      Comprehensive test results for.

      A. Pond Test Results Required.
      1. Ammonia
      2. Nitrite
      3. Nitrate
      4. KH
      5. DH
      6. Temperature

      B. Test of results of top up water, from flushing settlement chambers.
      1. Ammonia
      2. Nitrite
      3. Nitrate.
      4. Temperature

      C. Analysis of Anoxic Chamber/Baskets.

      What ideas here???


      Keep the Questions Coming.
      What concerns you about This Filtration System?
      Like we have a CLUE what Nature is capable of, by way of INTERVENTION/OVERCOMING EVERY Obstacle in it`s path ....

      The KNOWN STANDARD just like news bulletins is already Obsolete 5 minutes later ....

      Why Fixate upon what has come before when so many unknown FASCINATING factors are in the process of discovery SCIENTIFICALLY/BIOLOGICALLY /QUANTUMLY ..

      SIMPLY Do what RESONATES with YOU regardless

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