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Thread: Anoxic Filtration.

  1. #921
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    New info about Anoxic Filtration: http://liofornellino.blogfree.net/?t=3702102
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    Visit my (anoxic) BLOG: http://liofornellino.blogfree.net

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    Still reading, taking a break at post#230.

    Is Mr. Novak still sending out the new CD ??

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    Did you see this link?

    http://www.essexsection.co.uk/html/a...iltration.html

    I didn't click through each link, but when posted in 2009, it had all the info the CD had...
    I had it, and if I can find it, I could send it to you if you wanted a hard copy... just PM me.

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    I believe the link you posted in another thread to MankySanke's site IS all the material on the CD (it was put online back in 2009-10) and that Dr. Novak no longer sends out the CD. http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/anoxic_filtration.html

    Dr. Novak frequents the UK forum KoiKeeper Unleashed and has politely answered questions for me there. I have set up a hybrid anoxic system on my small pond, in addition to my static bio and S&G, basically I switched all my in-pond plants and my vege filter over to biocenosis baskets instead of pots and dirt. I think this is a good compromise over the uncertainty of the method and the curiosity to try something different, without any harm done ...
    I have also read probably all the threads on the internet about anoxic filtration, very entertaining! And 90% negative! But the positive results from the Italian followers and some others has kept me intrigued.
    Good luck in your quest.
    Last edited by GoldieGirl; 10-01-2012 at 01:33 PM.
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    Crossposted with ICU2. So there you go
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldieGirl View Post
    ...all the threads on the internet about anoxic filtration, very entertaining! And 90% negative! ....
    Yes, I've noticed that too... so why do you think that is?
    I too have gone hybrid... actually keeping my planted baskets within the main pond... I'd like to think of them more as an aguementation to my 'conventional' filteration systems attached to my pond.
    Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils. - Louis Hector Berlioz
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldieGirl View Post
    I believe the link you posted in another thread to MankySanke's site IS all the material on the CD (it was put online back in 2009-10) and that Dr. Novak no longer sends out the CD.
    Ok. I was wondering since Mr. Novak wrote, post #127.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin novak View Post
    In my new Cd-book I have a lot more photos of peoples Anoxic filters and their ideas on how they solved their problems of placement, plumbing ect., ect.
    Does the aforementioned hyperlink contain this info? If not, would anyone mind mailing me a copy? I can pay for the postage and cd if this is a problem. Private message is always fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldieGirl View Post
    But the positive results from the Italian followers and some others has kept me intrigued.
    Any improvements on bacteria conversion rates from improved designs ??

    Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
    Yep, but have not read it yet. On my "to read" list after I finish this thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by GoldieGirl View Post
    basically I switched all my in-pond plants and my vege filter over to biocenosis baskets instead of pots and dirt. I think this is a good compromise over the uncertainty of the method and the curiosity to try something different, without any harm done ...
    Quote Originally Posted by monomer View Post
    Yes, I've noticed that too... so why do you think that is?
    actually keeping my planted baskets within the main pond... I'd like to think of them more as an aguementation to my 'conventional' filteration systems attached to my pond.
    I AGREE !!

    I never cared for the traditional bog designs due to all the problems with medications, all the uncertainty of what is actually happening, etc. Nobody ever could tell me why bogs work as they do. I would always get the same ""yeah, i got perfect water, no algae, a ton of huge koi, and all I use is a bog so it must be the bog and can't explain why it works so good and all I have are plants so it must be the plants also, but its not the final answer even though it is the final answer for me and it could be the final answer for you" Giving me the impression that I am the idiot. The circular discussion drives me crazy.

    My future bog designs will be a rendition of Mr. Novaks anoxic pond. At least, now I understand what is going on in there. Also, tremendously easier to do medications by dosing each individual, or a group, of baskets at a time. Maintenance also appears to be much easier with the Mr. Novak's implementation versus the huge S&G+plant traditional bog filters.

    I got 3 questions:

    1) Do plants become too invasive, invading multiple baskets causing problems in the anoxic pond ??

    2) For winter, do you have to re-pot, or try to salvage the Laterite, when pulling plants out of the baskets?? Do you ever have to remove the plants ??

    3) Does the Laterite ever need to be "refreshed" with new Laterite ??

    Going to read the aforementioned hyperlink after I get done reading this thread. So, I may find the answers eventually, but I would appreciate any quick responses to the questions.

    This thread gives me a good idea of what to expect and I am surprised how much more helpful this thread has become versus the previous thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldieGirl View Post
    I have also read probably all the threads on the internet about anoxic filtration, very entertaining! And 90% negative!
    Quote Originally Posted by monomer View Post
    Yes, I've noticed that too... so why do you think that is?
    I am probably wrong, but I'll take a swing at it.

    I think it is due to all the hardheadedness involved with bog owners and their "crystal clear water safe enough to drink" nonsense; such as I described previously in how it becomes a circular argument since nobody actually can explain what is happening.

    I think the koi purists believe, "if they can keep their pond clean enough, then they will never ever get any of the 'bad bacteria'". Problem is the bad bacteria actually attacking the fish is only a secondary response to the fish already having a damage immune system or wounds to allow entry. The "bad bacteria" is always there no matter what they do. So, they try to keep the "bad bacteria" population to a minimum regardless of their denitrification role. I truely doubt these koi purists are taking weekly, or a good regiment, of testing water and muck samples under a high intensity microscope to determine what bacteria is actually alive.

    Mr. Novak has come across much better in this thread. In the previous thread, he was playing it too safe like a politician instead of an altruistic hobbyist; this was irritating me like crazy. He chose to answer questions that were not hard balls. Ya gotta be willing to take a few punches if you want to try to educate people that are outside of your choir and you will be more respected for taking those tough punches. He did come across better in this thread and I appreciate this. I often jumped to see what Mr. Novak responses were since I am here to learn more about his system rather than reading the posters that present them self as the "wise guys".
    Last edited by crsublette; 10-01-2012 at 06:35 PM.

  8. #928
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    Quote Originally Posted by crsublette View Post
    Ok. I was wondering since Mr. Novak wrote, post #127.
    Since that post was from mid 2009, I would assume that the "updated in 2010" info on the website is the most current

    Quote Originally Posted by crsublette View Post
    Ok
    I got 3 questions:

    1) Do plants become too invasive, invading multiple baskets causing problems in the anoxic pond ??

    2) For winter, do you have to re-pot, or try to salvage the Laterite, when pulling plants out of the baskets?? Do you ever have to remove the plants ??

    3) Does the Laterite ever need to be "refreshed" with new Laterite ??
    The plants will root through the baskets, but this does not effect what the clay is doing, so you don't have to repot. If your plants are seasonal, just clean out the dead debris. You should not be pulling the whole plant out, they will come back next year ... Unless they are tropical, then you may have to replenish the clays in the basket (I would avoid this type of plant, myself)
    Dr. Novak recommends replenishing the laterite every 5 years or so.
    It is not considered a "bog" and does not remove "bad bacteria".

    I think the negativity results from the concept being difficult to understand, and I don't think Dr. Novak explains it particularly well. My simple take on it is that the baskets of concentrated clay absorbs ammonia and converts it to nitrogen gas which dissipates out of the pond. If there are plants, they help by consuming the ammonia first.

    I my years of hobby-ing with planted tanks, things that I have learned about plants and substrates back this theory up. I still struggle with retaining a complete grasp on the scientific details, but don't feel I need to, in order to have fun experimenting with aspects of the system.

    BTW, I have had my biocenosis baskets in place for only 2 months. Previously I was showing a consistant 20 ppm nitrogen, my last test was down to 10 ppm, with no other changes in routine. All tests are done before my weekly water change. Not convinced yet, but don't care as long as my fish are in happy water
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  9. #929
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldieGirl View Post
    Since that post was from mid 2009, I would assume that the "updated in 2010" info on the website is the most current
    Doh! Ok, I see. Yeah, the hyperlinke has "2010" on the top left corner of the PDFs. Very good!!

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldieGirl View Post
    It is not considered a "bog"
    Hmmm, I bet ya a fella could design an anoxic pond to be like bog, an anoxic bog.

    Has anyone asked Mr. Novak if the system still works if the diffusor pipe was at the bottom instead of on the side of the anoxic system ??

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldieGirl View Post
    I think the negativity results from the concept being difficult to understand, and I don't think Dr. Novak explains it particularly well. My simple take on it is that the baskets of concentrated clay absorbs ammonia and converts it to nitrogen gas which dissipates out of the pond. If there are plants, they help by consuming the ammonia first.

    I my years of hobby-ing with planted tanks, things that I have learned about plants and substrates back this theory up. I still struggle with retaining a complete grasp on the scientific details, but don't feel I need to, in order to have fun experimenting with aspects of the system.
    Yeah, I found a columnist, Syd Mitchell of Pond Trade Magazine, that introduced me to this concept. I think he explains it every well.


    Thanks for sharing your thoughts on my questions. Appreciate it.
    Last edited by crsublette; 10-01-2012 at 07:42 PM.

  10. #930
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    All the term anoxic refers to is simply an environment that is low in available oxygen... this condition could be created in a number of ways... could be in a bog filter, could be in a biocensis basket with or without plants, could be in the pores of lava rock or ceramic media, etc. An anoxic environment forces certain specialized (facultative heterotrophic) bacteria to get their oxygen from nitrate leaving behind nitrogen gas thus completing the nitrogen cycle.

    I've been using planted baskets in my ponds for the last two decades... I knew nothing of biocensis or Dr Novak back then, I'd just get some reddish-gray clay dug up from out of our backyard (sadly, we've got nothing but clay back there, makes it hard to grow anything worthwhile back there)... the clay I felt was best for all water plants (minerals without any organics to muck up the water) especially for water lilies, and then added laterite in the middle because it was a popular iron fertilizer I'd known about from back in my aquarium days. I'd take a basket, line it with burlap and place the clay and laterite in it and pop in my plant fold the leftover burlap over the top and then pile some river rock on top so the fish won't muck about in it. Never had problems with nitrates... though I didn't measure for it I would normally go a month or two without doing any water changes and yet never experienced any issues. Only more recently did I come across Dr Novak and his biocensis baskets et al theories... and thought "darn, so that's why my pond water's been so great all these years and here I thought it was the plants". Actually I don't know what to believe now, I just know what's been working for me all these years and if it just so happens that it was the anoxic environment created within those baskets so be it... or if its the plants that's doing the magic as I'd thought, then that's good too.

    So the bottom line here is I apparently have in my pond what's known as biocensis baskets with plants in them but I still will not forego my more conventional bio filtration (moving bed, static filter, trickle tower)... I'm not quite so convinced by Dr Novak's explanations to have a desire go it solo with just the baskets, besides I'd need a heck of a lot more of them according to him.
    Last edited by monomer; 10-04-2012 at 12:51 AM.
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  11. #931
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    Sounds close to it.

    Good article I found, Physico-Chemical Factors and Bacterias in Fish Ponds. Gives ya an idea of various bacteria pond water and mud and helps to show where the anoxic environment is created.

    Yeah, this entire discussion of "anoxic pond is the final answer to all bio-filitration" reminds of this debate of the FIR functionality, "scientifically" proven, found in only the Bakki House medium for the Bakki Shower in Japan, discussed on koi-bito. Eeek, a very lively debate.

    At least, Mr. Novak's idea gives idea of better way of potting plants and an alternative way of building a "bog".
    Last edited by crsublette; 10-01-2012 at 11:57 PM.

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    Greg Bickal, the guy that interviewed Mr. Novak on koivet wrote on koi-bito (post#22):

    I like plants, and want plants. Can I be using my plants more efficiently, that is what interested me about the Anoxic Filtration System. Is there a right way and a wrong way to use plants, and have I slipped into using them the wrong way, causing me bacteria problems.
    That's my motivation for trying Mr. Novak's anoxic filtration.
    Last edited by crsublette; 10-02-2012 at 02:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldieGirl View Post
    ...all the threads on the internet about anoxic filtration, very entertaining! And 90% negative! ....
    Quote Originally Posted by monomer View Post
    Yes, I've noticed that too... so why do you think that is? ...
    Quote Originally Posted by crsublette View Post
    ...I am probably wrong, but I'll take a swing at it...
    Okay then this is my take on the hostile negativity that often seems to surround him and his theories... Every forum has it own established set of self-proclaimed 'experts' and they find any new 'expert' types annoying... simple as that. Couple that together with Novak's style of coming across sounding a bit arrogant and even intolerant at times and that's a recipe for knee-jerk resistance on the part of the resident 'experts' who feel intimidated by the man's choice of words.

    Me? I don't know what to think so I expend my efforts trying to have an open mind (contrary to what it says in my signature) and think about ways to incorporated the stuff I do understand... or what I think I understand anyway.
    Last edited by monomer; 10-04-2012 at 01:46 AM.
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  14. #934
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    Yep, that's a good quote. An open mind is actually helpful when it motivates a skeptic to ask some very intense, probing questions such as Mr. Bickal did in his interview with Mr. Novak on KoiVet.

    Obviously, there is a divided crowd here on koiphen. To prove this, check out the Water Gardening forum, it has a sticky titled "Bickering & Insults". So, in this discussion of anoxic filtration, there is a bit of the "koi connoisseur probing Novak" vs the "novak 'open minded' choir" going at each other. I am just glad Novak finally figured out how to upload his entire documentation online so we don't have to hear this "just go get the free CD and then you'll 'get it' " nonesense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crsublette View Post
    ...Obviously, there is a divided crowd here on koiphen. To prove this, check out the Water Gardening forum, it has a sticky titled "Bickering & Insults"...
    Wow, who would have ever thunk Bickering and Insults would be a problem in a water gardening forum... wow, now I'm imagining old gray-haired granny ladies mud wrestling with water lilies flying through the air. This kinda combative behavior is not unique to Koiphen in the least, its actually normal human nature anytime too many 'experts' gather together in one place because most 'experts' don't back down and can't let anything or anyone slide and will never admit to being wrong about anything.

    I've been on forums/discussion groups for many, MANY years and bickering and insults are not unusual, in fact its often the main attraction for repeat visiting on some of the most popular threads in most forums... and you'll often find some of the most heavily participated threads are the most contentious threads... so its not really such a bad thing for a forum to have come up from time-to-time as it does attract many eye-balls. Bottom line is its entertainment... even for those that say they're appalled by all the rudeness and hostility that goes on in such threads and take their complaints to the mods and yet they keep on coming back to check out the latest installment of insulting posts... its very much like some gory accident scene that horrified onlookers just can't seem to turn away from. Face it, if someone was really offended that much by what was being said they'd just quit reading the thread, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by crsublette View Post
    ...So, in this discussion of anoxic filtration, there is a bit of the "koi connoisseur probing Novak" vs the "novak 'open minded' choir" going at each other...
    I first came across Dr Novak and talk about his biocensis baskets about two years ago and was so intrigued at the time that I Google 'anoxic, biocensis, and Novak' and every forum thread I found on the subject was full of controversy and argument... it did make for some interesting reading.
    Last edited by monomer; 10-04-2012 at 12:33 PM.
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  16. #936
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    Quote Originally Posted by monomer View Post
    wow, now I'm imagining old gray-haired granny ladies mud wrestling with water lilies flying through the air.
    That'd be awesome. Might be able to find it on YouTube. If not, I think I know a couple ladies who wouldn't mind volunteering.

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    Can anyone confirm that "Substrate Gold [TM], Aquarium Laterite Substrate Additive" is the appropriate product to use? My local aquarium supply had about 4 different options, most were about $35 per 20 pound bag and looked gravelly. This one was $16 for 24 ounces. It looks more like unbaked clay than gravel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mplskoi View Post
    ...This one was $16 for 24 ounces. It looks more like unbaked clay than gravel.
    Yes. that's the stuff... now all you need is some kitty litter (without additives).
    Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils. - Louis Hector Berlioz
    A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing. - Emo Philips
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    A man in love is incomplete until he has married. Then he's finished. - Zsa Zsa Gabor
    When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never tried before.
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    Thanks monomer,
    I am about to embark on the anoxic journey. Wish me well! I have a 1500 gallon pond with brand name pump pumping to brand name pressurised filter. Also a skimmer that pushes 1200 gph through a water garden planted with iris and bullrushes. I will repot these according to the good doctors directions. My pond is healthy but lacking a little in clarity and ability to handle fish load. hopefully a few baskets puts me over the edge.

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    Can someone refer me to a description of what these biocensus baskets are ?

    I am constantly experimenting with bog filters in the sense that I have a small shallow upper pond that has a waterfall in and out, that feeds my 2 koi ponds. Everything I plant in there grows like crazy, and the biggest challenge is that roots trap a lot of fine silt , and it is difficult to clean regularly. For the last 2 years , I have grown watercress ( which needs no dirt or planting medium, and also overwinters ) .
    This season, I tried putting the watercress in shallow empty pots to contain the roots, but they quickly multiplied and overran the pots, and I'm sure I have just as many roots in the pond as before.
    Subjectively, I think the bog helps my water quality, as I never have ammonia readings, even with a heavy fish load. I do have lots of other plants in the fish ponds as well. They also grow like crazy.

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