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    Thread: K1,,,,how much is too much?

    1. #1
      jtp79's Avatar
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      K1,,,,how much is too much?

      I had the pleasure of meeting with some guys this weekend and the conversation came up about my new pond build. We were talking about the amount of K1 that was needed for bio filtration. I mentioned that I was going to have a 275 gallon tote with about 24 cubic feet of k1 in it. Pond will hopefully be between 8 and 10 thousand gallons. One guy mentioned about the nexus filters,,,he said in the directions it said to let the media mature,,, if it was really dark brown,,,to add more k1 but if it was really light,,,take some media out. Most of them thought that it would hurt to have the 275 gallon tote full of aerated k1 because it would not all mature and grow bacteria. What do you guys think about this? Is there such a thing as overkill for K1?

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      Dick Benbow brought this up recently in this thread:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ghlight=jasper

      The K1 talk begins about post 18. It's an interesting read.

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    3. #3
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      When I saw you "Jackpot" thread on getting these tank, I was wondering how long it was going to be before you starting asking about how much K1

      I had missed the above reference thread...interesting discussion.
      MN Mike

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      My Pond Construction
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      Calculating K1 Bio Media


    4. #4
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      The beauty of the big tank is you can start with a little media and then add to if as money is available or if you want to go by color and decide you need more.

    5. #5
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      I did this somewhere here a while back and made a chart. But from the EA site, a Nexus with 50 liters of K1 will handle 250 grams of food per day. Ive bought all my media by cubid foot so I converted.

      50 liters of K1=250 grams of food
      1.76 cu ft = .55 pounds of food
      3.5 cu ft = 1.1 pounds of food

      A big volume of air will be needed to agitate that much K1. Plus you cannot use the entire container. I lean toward the school of using a smaller container with static media. Note, there is a difference in an agitated, moving bed and an aerated bed.

      I have about 9 (roughly) cubic feet of media in my pond though I do have a trickle through system. Even without fresh water exchange I should be able to feed a couple pounds of food a day easily. I dont feed nearly that much....of course my fish dont grow either.

      Big tanks do add water volume to the system if you have the room to hide them.

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      wakoiboy is offline Senior Member
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      Hey luke was wondering if you could explain the difference between a moving bed and aerated bed. Is a moving bed just less media so it can move around and constantly be cleaned? And an aerated bed is a lot more k1 or whatever but not as much room for it to move around? I have noticed in my moving bed it does not matter whether the media is constantly in contact with bubbles or not, and actually the media that sits at the bottom grows bacteria faster and more thick.

    7. #7
      Kent Wallace's Avatar
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      The difference between an aerated bio-filter and an aerated moving bed is an aerated filter uses a small amount of air to highly oxygenate the media and bacteria. An aerated moving bed uses a large amount of air to tumble the media offering multiple opportunities for the water to come in contact with the media and bacteria. Instead of a one time pass through of the water it creates a scenario that acts like multiple passes for each one time pass through. Like having multiple aerated filters in a row. My Airlift Dilution Reactor is a system that moves the water through the filter multiple times for each one time pass through with out moving the media.

    8. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by wakoiboy View Post
      Hey luke was wondering if you could explain the difference between a moving bed and aerated bed. Is a moving bed just less media so it can move around and constantly be cleaned? And an aerated bed is a lot more k1 or whatever but not as much room for it to move around? I have noticed in my moving bed it does not matter whether the media is constantly in contact with bubbles or not, and actually the media that sits at the bottom grows bacteria faster and more thick.
      I think you are right on track. Even traditional japanese mat systems use aeration in the bio filters to aid in cleaning but it takes substantially more air (and the right amount of media; not too full) to keep a moving bed churning. The motion of the water carries the K1 around not necessarily the bubbles themselves.

    9. #9
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      I spoke with a guy from aquatic eco systems today and he thought the idea of 24 cubic feet in a 275 gallon tote sounded about right. I know byu reading the other thread that small more efficient was the discussion but we never really made a decision in that thread. The guy at aquatic eco said if u are going to error that more is better than not enough. I am not made of money but I would rather buy 500 dollars worth of extra K1 to start with rather than lose a 300 dollar fish then have to buy the media anyways. I will be using the 4 way airstone that birdman has in order to make this a moving bed filter.

    10. #10
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      From past threads, seems like a fill rate of 50 to 60 percent for bio media is the general rule for a MB. For a 275g tank which is about 37ft when completely full, the 60 percent K1 would be 22ft. I don't know how the rolling action would be in a shorter square tank as compared to a tall round tank? So by the time you add some free space at the top of the tank, maybe your closer to 20ft or so of K1? Base on EA calculations, that would be a bunch of bio capability and give you a lot of feed potential.
      MN Mike

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      My Pond Construction
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      My Indoor Overwintering Tank
      Calculating K1 Bio Media


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    11. #11
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      Does anyone know for sure if it has been proven that too much K1 is possible? Some threads talk about it not turning brown and just slightly changing color,,, does this mean it is not doing its job?

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by jtp79 View Post
      Does anyone know for sure if it has been proven that too much K1 is possible? Some threads talk about it not turning brown and just slightly changing color,,, does this mean it is not doing its job?
      you need to read this thread.

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ghlight=jasper
      Ephesians 2:8-9
      faith is a gift, not a personal talent.


    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ethan25 View Post
      Ethan,

      I did read the thread,,,,thats why I am asking the question again. There never was a conclusion in that thread,,,some said u could not have too much and others thought less was better.

    14. #14
      Kent Wallace's Avatar
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      One aspect that will determine the amount of media in a moving bed is it's construction. You must leave about 1/3 of the volume free so it can tumble. If you have too much media it will tend to pack up and channel. The layout of the container, the air distribution and the type of outlet will all determine the maximum amount of media you can put in it.

    15. #15
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      The bacteria we grow is directly proportional to the amount of waste (ammonia) the fish produce, not the amount of media. Add a fish, grow more bugs, remove a fish, the bugs will die off to that level. The bacteria will colonize anything they can or need to if given enough time.
      What we try and do is provide the bacteria with ideal growing conditions, such as fluid bed filters with lots of surface area and lots of air. Happy bugs with big smiles.
      I think the color of the media will give you an indication of your amount of media but I also think the more the better, to a point. Makes life easier for the bugs.
      So is dark color better than light? I bet if the color gets to dark, not enough media to support the amount of bacteria growing they will go elsewhere and colonize other surfaces.
      The bottom line is your ammonia test kit.
      Take my pond for an example. If you do the math and figure cubic feet of media per pond of fish that shows I have more media than needed, my media color being light supports this. BUT, sence cycling my pond I have never seen any traces of ammonia with my test kits. So I will continue to play it safe with to much media.

    16. #16
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      All I know is that 24 cubic feet is alot, and it should be enough for whatever you throw in that pond. Just feed slow to start to give the bio a chance to catch up maybe don't put all the fish in right away to let it get it started. Its really hard for people to tell whether a filtering system will be enough or not, the best way is to install it and constantly watch the ammonia once it starts going down you know you have enough filtration, if ammonia levels arn't going down even after the media is turning brown then you don't have enough.

    17. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by jtp79 View Post
      Ethan,

      I did read the thread,,,,thats why I am asking the question again. There never was a conclusion in that thread,,,some said u could not have too much and others thought less was better.
      gotcha. One thing I realized was that as I had a lot of tosai that became nisai over the summer and gained some significant girth, my media really began to become seasoned. The same media one year that is too much, may be just about right the next season, or even 2-3 months down the line as 10 fish from 7-8 inches become 10 fish from 14-17 inches. A definite difference in bioload there.
      Ephesians 2:8-9
      faith is a gift, not a personal talent.


    18. #18
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      I think i am gonna go with the MORE cant hurt anything theory. Only problem now is trying to hide the cost of 24 cubic feet of K1 from the wife.

    19. #19
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      Is this filter a moving bed or a static filter?

    20. #20
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      Moving bed kent,,in a 275 gallon tote. Using one of birdmans 4 way cross airstones with an av 150 aerator.

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