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    Thread: Stone Inside or Not?

    1. #1
      afarmboy's Avatar
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      Stone Inside or Not?

      Can you give me pros and cons of both ways of finishing off the top of the pond and liner. I initially was convinced that I wanted stone inside going down below the waterline, thinking that would be the best looking. But after having seen some photos of few done without stone inside, just a capstone and stone veneer outside, I think that may look cleaner. And it would be half the work. Please give me your thoughts and concerns relating to aesthetics, water and fish health, etc. \
      Thanks all!
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      Last edited by afarmboy; 01-12-2008 at 06:15 PM. Reason: pic cropping
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    2. #2
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      i did mine the second way and like the finish and look - I wish I had taken it down further like you are going to do. I always heard that if you do it the first way with no stone the top few inches of the liner is exposed to UV and reflected UV - which is very bad and will shorten the life - now if the shortened life is too short - who knows.

      The whole pond is a time consuming job - so doing the stone is relative - do it how it is pleasing to you - it's not worth cutting corners - you have to live with it hopefully forever
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    3. #3
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      Go with plan A . Less work, less likely to fail, less likely to injure a fish.

    4. #4
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      I did mine the 2nd way, but the liner was polyurea.

      But not sure if I would do it that way with a regular liner cause it would be near impossible to fix if a leak ever developed behind the stone.

    5. #5
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      pick option C

      the stone inside the pond. only run down say a couple inchs below the lowest running water level. this works for most part in hiding the liner. and after algea starts to grow and turn everything green below the water you can't make anything out. this keeps most if not a thin line of jagged edge objects just right at the water line. keeping fish safe for most part if they rub into a wall. exception that couple inchs that stick down into the water.

      alot of folks tend to do above. pending on size of the rock / stone they are putting on the inside wall. they may make a actual shelf to build up off of.

      rarely due you see folks build a stone face from the very bottom of the pond wall all the way up on the inside. just due to the fact you will never be able to make out what colors and in most cases what shape the rocks are once the algea starts growing on it.

      that and there is no point trying to clean the algea off. due to the algea is part of your filteration system. and it will grow back fairly quick.
      Pond and Construction Forum 101 good place for any first timers to the forum. for finding resources and general info.

      Ryan

    6. #6
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      ...
      Last edited by mrpig; 01-13-2008 at 01:43 AM.

    7. #7
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      I was going to put stone down in to the water, like is shown in your first drawing. After building the pond and looking at it, I decided against it. My capstone overhangs the side-wall of the pond, and the water is only 2" down from the bottom of the capstone. I didn't feel it was worth the extra effort.

      I would feel different about this- had I not installed cover tape on the seams. It doesn't bother me to look at a seamless black surface, but I wouldn't like it if there was exposed folds.

      Also, if the exposed liner was more than a couple inches... I wouldn't like that, either.

    8. #8
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      I went with B

      However I had a concrete ledge to stack motared rock on. I would be cautious about putting wire mesh in the pond. That said our rock goes 12" under water line to avoid premature aging of liner. In the event of a spawn, I would lower water level below rocks as fast as I could and then its off to the Koi dealer with the offending male Advice, use smooth rounded rock below the waterline you dont want any sharp edges for fish to contact.
      Regards, Ken

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    9. #9
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      Mr. Pig, are there any pics of your pond handy?

      Ryan, I would be building off of a shelf and not going all the way to the bottom of the pond, only about 16" down. I like the idea of only having a couple inches of stone below water but not sure yet on how to effectively, cleanly, and securely fasten the stone and deal with liner folds on such a small area. Any ideas?
      Ken, I will for sure protect the liner with a 1" mortar float before I start stonework and that includes a shelf I'll work off. Big problem is that the stone I am using is pretty rough. Should I go back through with a diamond cup wheel and knock of the points and edges of the stone that's underwater?

      If I go with the 2nd style, stone inside, it will be shorter than I thought as the updated drawing below shows. I spent a while today digging out the footing and shooting levels and I'll only be using 2 blocks of height, 16". With the water level held down a bit from the top I'd only be looking at about 13" to 14" of stone under the surface.
      Thank you all very much for the input.
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    10. #10
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      Scrap liner

      is the way to go at the the bottom of the rock. I used carpet also. A few pics.
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      Regards, Ken

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    11. #11
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      I used a shelf so the rocks are flush with liner and tried to use smoother rocks on the inside. You don't have to go very far under water level cause the algae will eventually cover up anything under water.

      The water reflects the stone like a mirror, so if stone just touches the water it looks like it goes several feet deep depending on how much is exposed above water line.

      Here are a couple photos before and after water.
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    12. #12
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      mortor / concrete itself should be enough to protect the liner from rocks.

      otherwords...

      start filling your pond with water. working out folds as it fills up all the way.

      lower the water if need be some below were your rock edging will go in.

      put down some mortar / concrete.

      also slap some mortar / concrete into back side of the ledge. (( make sure the mortor doesn't gloob up over top of rock when ya set it in. ))

      set rock down.

      continue down with a few more peices of rock. (( repeating, the last 2 steps ))

      after about 1 to 2 hours (completely depends on how wet the mortar / concrete was when ya mixed it ), go back with steel brush, spike (large nail), trowl, hard bristle brush, perhaps damp wash cloth, and remove extra mortar / concrete, that squeezed out while setting rock. (( be carefull when scraping / removing extra mortar / concrete, its almost like using sand paper and sanding stuff, but using the above for mention tools, you don't want to remove large chunks at a time, but taking little bit off at a time. )) this should give you your finished look.

      once ya got your bottom layer of rocks all done around the pond, start on the next row, just remeber though, don't do everything at once, because you will need to go back and scrap and clean up all your extra mortar / concrete.

      waiting to long to scrap the extra mortar / concrete. will result in needing to grind stuff. so make sure you alot yourself enough time to remove the stuff. that same day, and approx 1 to 2 hours after setting the stones in place.

      trying to remove extra mortar, right after initally setting rocks, can cause the rock itself to completely shift out of place, which is no good, and reason why ya wait the 1 to 2 hours, to let the concrete to stiffen up and set.

      ONCE ya got your rocks all done, its time to drain the pond, and this is a good time to clean out all the extra mortar / concrete that ended up getting into the pond.

      then cut holes, and fit in your bottom drains, TPR's, GPR's, Skimmers, etc...

      refill with water.

      folks normally have other things they want to get done so they can get through fish into the pond and do so. and finish up with cap stone, and outside edging later.

      but when it time to do cap stone. this is the time to cut off excess liner, and extra chicken wire / wire mesh if you used it. and then fold them over a little bit if need be first, then slap some mortar under neath the folded over part, and then put down some more mortar on top, and set down your cap stone, wait 1 to 2 hours, and clean up excess, mortar that got sqeezed out while setting, and ya done.

      ===================

      some folks use tile, or perhaps a thin flag stone and use it like a tile, to do the inside edging. and use some hangers. or possible an anchor / bolt that goes directly into concrete wall / block wall. that the flag stone partially sets on. with mortar behind it and around its edging.

      folks using actual rocks, or stacking flag stone on top of each other, much like, hacnp. normally require a ledge. to set it all on. a tip if you are doing this. is litterly take the pallet you got from the quary, and take all the stone off the pallet and start sorting by thickness in piles. (( have a tape measure handy while ya do this, till ya get confromtable eyeing thickness. )) this is also a good time to take a wire brush, to clean up the rock / flag stone.

      when using rocks / flag stone stacked on top of each other. some folks may put in a wire mesh or chicken wire. between the rock and liner wall. as they put in the rocks. the wire mesh / chicken wire should set within the mortar. and not be directly against the liner, with mortar covering it. the primary doing of this is when cracks do form. is to keep the rock and mortar they are embeded into, from flaking off and falling into the pond.

      the bad thing with the chicken wire / wire mesh is, it can be a pain in the rear to fix a loose rock, because when ya get that crow bar in there to get that rock out so you can fix that spot. you end up pulling, 10 plus other rocks out with it in all directions, because the stinking chicken wire / wire mesh is held onto everything else.

      without the chicken wire / wire mesh in. normally its just taking a board and sledge hammer and a crow bar, and nocking out the couple layers of rock above it, cleaning up the rocks with a chisel and hammer and a wire brush, placing new mortar down, and re-inserting the couple rocks that got removed.

      is wire mesh a good thing or a bad thing? depends. on our little short height walls. say 2 feet high max that the rock is being stacked up high. i say forget the chicken wire. but on higher walls were there needs to be some sort of backing to hold it all together, so large sections of a wall don't come crashing down one day on to your head. then ya something needs to be done. those that live in earthquake country, would think chicken wire / wire mesh either way would be a good thing. so after one ya not coming home finding rocks that have poped out and in bottom of your pond. though *shrugs*
      Pond and Construction Forum 101 good place for any first timers to the forum. for finding resources and general info.

      Ryan

    13. #13
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      I did mine halfway like your #2. I intended doing it like #1 but could see the liner...I couldnt make enough overhang with the rocks I had. So, I put one row of rocks around. Unfortunately, it makes kind of a jagged edge on the lower side so am worried if the fish ever decide to spawn. Going all the way down to the footer was not really an option since it is 32" down. I wish I had used a 4" top block around the perimeter to make a tiny ledge one block deep. That would have removed my irregular edge underneath the rocks.

    14. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by luke-gr View Post
      I did mine halfway like your #2. I intended doing it like #1 but could see the liner...I couldnt make enough overhang with the rocks I had. So, I put one row of rocks around. Unfortunately, it makes kind of a jagged edge on the lower side so am worried if the fish ever decide to spawn. Going all the way down to the footer was not really an option since it is 32" down. I wish I had used a 4" top block around the perimeter to make a tiny ledge one block deep. That would have removed my irregular edge underneath the rocks.
      ...continuing on this thought... If I was going to install it like luke's (and I still can), I would use tumbled slate tile. It's smooth, rounded and low-profile, & there's nothing for the koi to get snagged on.

    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by mrpig View Post
      ...continuing on this thought... If I was going to install it like luke's (and I still can), I would use tumbled slate tile. It's smooth, rounded and low-profile, & there's nothing for the koi to get snagged on.
      Good thought. Using something thin like that wouldnt be a big issue.

      Many of my rocks are an inch plus thick. I wanted to use real rocks and hasnt been a problem yet, but I do worry a bit.

    16. #16
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      ...Polyurethane sealant sticks well to epdm, and it also sticks well to tumbled slate, so I'm thinking it may work great in-place of mortar. I don't think I'd even bother to grout/mortar between them.
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    17. #17
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      We didn't go in the water and you really only see the pretty cap stone and outside stone and of course my plants

      Marie
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    18. #18
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      I did it a little differentyl. The liner came up and over the top of the collar or block at the water line. Then I mortared one layer of rock and backfilled if the rock didn't fully cover the top. The liner was then folded back over this layer toward the pond and cut off mid way. The finished layer of top stone covered the liner. So I have rock just to the water line. No liner is exposed and I don't worry so much about the fish rubbing up against the rock.

      Note that my rock had some rough or sharp edges that I rounded off and smoothed. Lot of work to clean the rock.
      Last edited by Joey S; 06-29-2008 at 06:59 PM.
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    19. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rick Gippner View Post
      Go with plan A . Less work, less likely to fail, less likely to injure a fish.
      Ditto

    20. #20
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