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  • Results 1 to 18 of 18

    Thread: cppond's Sakai Atarashi Sumi Showa #79

    1. #1
      Carl's Avatar
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      cppond's Sakai Atarashi Sumi Showa #79

      Here's my rationale, or maybe rationalization for 79.

      I know we are first to look for body (after eliminating defects) but my skills at that are not so good particularly when I can't make a direct comparison to others. Also, since these come from Matsunoke lineage, the little I know about conformation may not even apply.

      Next, we need to look for quality in skin and color. I think all of these showa have good quality. The shiro on the back of this koi is very good. We are usually told that we don't want to start out with too much sumi or too much finished sumo, but the sumi is supposed to be stable on these koi, so we pretty much can be assured of good sumi. It looks like the fish has a good start for motoguro though we are told that if the lead ray has sumi all the way to the end, it may retain the sumi on the entire pec.

      The beni on this koi looks to be problematic on the back of the first step, and here is where I am going to take the risk. I am going to rely on the the things we know about the lineage of these koi, and hope the beni is stable. We know these koi develop Maruzume Kiwa, and I am hoping that the fact that they do, and the fact that sumi is rising in the area where the beni appears weak accounts for this apparent weakness. So, I will learn something from this fish. I am hoping that the white in the face brightens.

      Finally, if the beni remains stable, it will have three steps of hi, in a pretty good kohaku pattern. The beni is a little high on the koi for a kohaku, but since it is showa, the sumi will rise from underneath, anyway. If the beni remains stable, the face and tail of this koi will have all three colors, to some extent. I think if this koi maintains it's quality, it will have one of the best patterns of the group.

      In any event, that is my guess and my hope, and I get another choice anyway.
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    2. #2
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      Bart is holding my showas until I make more room here. Here are some pics of #79 upon arrival at summer camp in Georgia, and one pic with both of my choices.
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      -- Carl --

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    3. #3
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      Number 79 at 12.5 inches, 10-5-08.
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      the parent club of Koiphen.


    4. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by cppond View Post
      Number 79 at 12.5 inches, 10-5-08.
      Very nice Shiroji, give it a little time, after coming out of the mud, for the colors to come up again. It looks like the beni is stable.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    5. #5
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      Looking good Carl, when does it come home?
      Sadia

      ...Formerly known as Luvmykoi

      Love for All, Hatred for None

    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by LuvmyKoi View Post
      Looking good Carl, when does it come home?
      I think its going to spend another season in the mud. I have to confirm with my expert conditioner, Bart.
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    7. #7
      koitoo is offline Senior Member
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      Sir, you are so lucky to have such nice conditioner! Tell Bart to feed that baby. Is there any underlying sumi? Yeah, the white is very white!
      Happy Koiing!!! Water and nothing but water or filtration????

    8. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by cppond View Post
      I think its going to spend another season in the mud. I have to confirm with my expert conditioner, Bart.

      Carl I think my showa "Tigger" is jealous :-) It'll be really interesting to see that sumi pop out after being in filtered water. Keep us updated with pics! I already netted my pond, so unless I have wayyyyyyyyy too much caffeine in my system I won't be netting Tigger for pictures.
      Sadia

      ...Formerly known as Luvmykoi

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    9. #9
      lukef's Avatar
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      Cpp
      I don't see it.
      I know sumi can hide, and I saw the touch of sumi on the nose from the first pic and the sumi dust in front of the dorsal hi..but this koi would have to be houdini to become a showa..
      I will be happy to be wrong
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by lukef View Post
      Cpp
      I don't see it.
      I know sumi can hide, and I saw the touch of sumi on the nose from the first pic and the sumi dust in front of the dorsal hi..but this koi would have to be houdini to become a showa..
      I will be happy to be wrong
      In light of the type of and the location of the sumi on the body, the motoguro, and the touch of sumi on the head, it's a showa. The question would be how much sumi would it have when it finishes and when will it finish? Since this is an atarashi sumi showa, I can't really venture a guess, but I think we would expect it to take 3-5 years to finish.

      But, if it stops being a showa, it's Bart's fault.
      -- Carl --

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      the parent club of Koiphen.


    11. #11
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      Two more pics.
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      -- Carl --

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      the parent club of Koiphen.


    12. #12
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      It will be interesting to compare mud ponded vs. filter ponded! The white on yours looks very nice. The white on mine still has that "nonfat milk" appearance.

    13. #13
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      I selected two showa from this growout and I have a thread for each of them. However, I thought I would post this in both threads for the educational value of seeing these pics side by side. these koi just came out of Bart's mud pond.

      I selected #79 as the 18th overall selection during the growout selection process and I selected #11 as the 47th overall selection.

      The first three pics are #11. You can see that a lot of sumi came up in a few months, pretty much where I hoped it would. It might even be more than I wanted, but the beni will take a few years to finish and it remains to be seen if colors will balance out. Normally, with showa you do not want too much sumi coming up through the red, but with atarashi sumi, the sumi should completely block out the red with quality sumi. This presents a new way to look at sumi in terms of development and I donít think we will want to apply the old rules (still applicable to regular sumi) to these fish.

      Number 11 could use some motoguro, and there does appear to be some developing. The shiro still seems quite nice, so I think we will be waiting on the beni with these fish. Both #11 and #79 have long bodies, common with the sanke from the Matsunosuke house.

      Number 79 does not have that much sumi, and I am hoping that it will develop from the nose through the head. If it does, this fish could be quite nice. However, the sumi does not scream atarashi to me, so it remains to be seen if it does in fact develop the inky black that #11 has. It would not be shocking to me that not all koi intended to have atarashi sumi actually end up with it. On the other hand, there might be characteristics of the sumi of #79 even at this stage that indicate to people with experience with this sumi that it does, in fact, have Atarashi sumi. It is all fairly new to me.

      Overall, I am very pleased with the quality of the fish and the value of the learning experience. As I have said before, this sumi is still fairly new to the hobby and we here at Koiphen have a great opportunity to learn about this characteristic and share our experiences with the rest of the hobby.


      Thanks to Bart and Kathy for the mud and the pics.


      Growout thread for #11.
      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79188

      Growout thread for #79.
      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78024
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      -- Carl --

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      the parent club of Koiphen.


    14. #14
      Carl's Avatar
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      #79 at time of selection, May 2008, 7".

      #79 at time of pond pull, Oct 11, 2008, 12.5".

      #79 at time of pond pull, Nov 22, 2008, 13".
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      -- Carl --

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      the parent club of Koiphen.


    15. #15
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      Here are some updated pics of the showa that Bart took for me. It's been in his mud. Unfortunately, the koi has a deformed head. If you look from the side you can see that it's pinched.
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      the parent club of Koiphen.


    16. #16
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      The showa is 22 inches ..not bad growth in a year
      Ashame about the head
      BART

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    17. #17
      Carl's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by HAMMERHEAD View Post
      The showa is 22 inches ..not bad growth in a year

      It's great growth. The skin looks nice. The beni would benefit from a respite from the growth, though. Too bad about the head.
      -- Carl --

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    18. #18
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      Yup, too bad about the pinched head. Nice showa otherwise.

      Brad










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