Fish nearly died, now abnormal behaviour

[avz10]

It is summer in South Africa and my fish are(were) very healthy. I was away for the week, and on Thursday my daughter phoned, saying that three of the fish are dying, gasping for air, having "convulsions", sinking to the bottom, balance gonee, and turned upside down.

I told her to backwash the water and add new water. While doing so, she realised that the Venturi was not working and that their could have been an oxygen deficit. (The water level in the sump was too low).That was rectified.

A massive water change was done, etc, etc. One fish recovered totally. Two others are acting very strange/sick, but have been surviving up to now. This is Saturday afternoon. Testing the water is of no use now, have changed a lot of the water. All the other fish are fine.

I spoke to my koi guy, but he had no other explanations, except for a big pH drop or swimming bladder.

Will try and post a video

[Lee B]

I'm sorry ... you can just about guarantee that if something is going to go wrong with the pond, it will be late at night, you will be out of town, or it will be a long, holiday weekend. At least your daughter was able to help.

Three fish were in distress; one recovered - two did not, and the rest of the collection appears to be OK. I don't know what to tell you

I have had fish that were laid over (on their side) recouperate. Fish that float on their backs on the surface do not have a very good prognosis. I'm not saying that a fish or two hasn't recovered, but most do not. It's a common disease in fancy goldies, and I've never had one recover for more than a week or so before flipping back over.

Make sure the water is DEAD on, with all parameters as good as you can get them. For some reason or other, goldies seem to flip if nitrAtes get a little high; maybe koi do, too. Check it. Keep the O2 levels up, try for saturation (you didn't mention water temp, so I can't make a suggestion on what "saturation" would be for you right now, but you can easily find that info on the 'net). Watch those two fish: if the one on the surface does not show improvement soon, you may wish to consider putting it down. Meanwhile, it will need to be protected from birds and sun exposure (a sunburned belly!). The fish is under enormous stress: having its belly exposed on the surface is not too good , so, even if it recovers it may be subject to other stress-related opportunistic factors.

Good luck to you AND your fish.

[avz10]

For those interested, I have put two video clips on youtube- don't know how to do it on this site!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5Cv_Y8EYVI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNBe0HbpeQU

[Joey S]

Indeed, very strange behavior.... and not affecting all the fish.

[sundan]

Have you had any large rainfall? Do you have any treated wood nearby? Could be a toxic runoff into pond. Treated wood has arsenic in it.

[avz10]

I uploaded 2 more videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0hFBMqg-lE
(just look how he recoveres)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0ZZcRclEsg
(this is how the one will lie on the bottom, recover, move to the surface, etc).

My daughter actually says they look better!


The current water temperature is 21 degrees Celsius, I think that's about 70 degrees Fahrenheit. The water temperature on Thursday would have been approximately the same

[avz10]

I was thinking of some sort of poison as well, and although we have had heavy rain, I dont think it could have been poison.

I attach a photo of my pond, it's dusk now in south Africa

[avz10]

Forgot to say, it has been raining continuously for the past week. And there is no sun to burn the belly!

[maxinegrundy]

Hello
i am sorry to hear you are having problems with your koi ...it can be a nightmare when things like this happen.
I am presuming you have checked your water parameters ..if all is ok ..
I would advise putting the affected koi into a quarentine pool away for the others and dose with salt ..0.3% or at least give them a salt bath.
I have a freind that has had a similar problem and hides epsom salt inside peas and feeds it to her ill koi ...and they have come on a treat.
I would also do a scrape to see if there are any parasite problems.
regards
Maxine

[Midorigoi]

I noticed in all the videos the koi look...partially paralyzed? I had a similar episode a few days ago when the pump stopped working! Three of my fish were floating and swimming awkwardly. Two died but the other lived after I transfered him to my other tank that had a working pump. My guess is lack of oxygen.

[avz10]

No, they are luckily not paralyzed!

Could someone please explain a salt bath? I do not have quarantine facilities. In other words- what sze container, how many litres, how many kilograms of salt, for how long should they stay in?

Thanks for all the responses

[vrap393]

I would'nt stress them out in a heavy salt concentration, they are already in distress so any further agrivation will surely push them over the edge.

Basic salt treatments are as follows, you can raise the salt level to one pound per hundred gallons in the pond, this will reduce some stress.

You could go up to 3 lbs. per hundred but if you have any plants this is as far as you can go without causing them harm. In your case I would stick with a lower level of no more than two pounds per hundred.

This must be added in increments over a couple of days to avoid sudden spikes.

Any salt concentrations above 3lbs. per hundred should be done in a quarentine tub and to only the affected fish, levels like these should only be used if parasites are proven present as high salt levels will have no effect on internal bacterial issues.

Also I would never go above 6lbs. per hundred unless you have expirience in recognizing when koi are in distress from treatment as opposed to being distressed from what your treating for.

The very first thing you need to do though is achieve a correct diagnosis to what your Koi are suffering from before any treatment regiments are persued as you can do more harm than good if approached incorrectly.

Also a large water change would seem to be in order if you suspect that the rainfall you had may have been the cause.

[maxinegrundy]

Hello
Doing a salt bath is a tonic for the koi ...and not a cure all.
Container must be cabable of holding the koi and enough room for it to move around in...plus the water however many gallons you put in there.( preferably water from the pond to try and keep the temps the same but dont return the salted water to the pond ..throw it away when you have finished bathing them).
Salt bath should be 3 ounces per gallon (pure dried vaccuum salt or PDF can be bought at local shop)...mix the salt until disloved in warm water then pour into the container with the water in. (un-disolved salt will burn the koi)
I suggest you do one koi at a time..dont bung them all in ..
Pop the koi into the salt bath .. you must keep an eye on them all the time!!as soon as they look like they are rolling over take them out and return to the pond. (generally 15 mins )
When returning to the pond you may have to support the koi for a little while salt will chill them right out and they will be a bit lethargic..so support the koi until you are confident that it can hold its own ...it may take a few mins.

Try not to add salt to your main pond as it is a pig to get out.
And there are quite a few treatments you cannot use with a salted pond.
Have a read at this you will find it interesting.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/duncan....gar%201111.htm
Having had discussions with other people ..one question comes to mind Oxygen ! do you have enough air going into your pond ?
One of my freinds has seen this before ...where there isnt enough air in the pond the koi start struggling and cant right themselves...usually happens in warmer weather..
Do they look any better today?
Have you tested your water ?
What are your readings...it is very important you test the water.
regards
Max

[avz10]

Dear Max

Thanks for your reply. I left home today, so they are in the hands of my kids and mother!!

I still think it is the oxygen. The two inlets that supply O2 are the venturi and the waterfall. When it happened, the sump/cylinder water level was very low apparently, only the waterfall running slowly and the venturi came to a standstill. (Please look at my photos)
I am unsure for how many hours or even days this could have been the case. As I said previously, a big water exchange was done; actually more than once, as I also did it on Saturday.

The good news is that the smaller black and white one (?not sure of the identification) is much better, still lethargic, but not gasping, etc. Even the bigger one (Kohaku) looks better, able to lie straight up, but as soon as you think she is OK, she starts her?his manoeuvres.

With regards to water testing, will do it on Friday and post. I thought the readings will in any case be inaccurate because of all the water changes.

One other point- I noticed over the weekend that my UV light has blown, so I replaced it on Sunday. I currently have quite an extensive filtering system, with very clear water.

Thanks
Albie

But tonight is Monday, 4days after the episode, perhaps they will make it.

[maxinegrundy]

Hello...
Does sound like not enough air ....well fingers crossed for your koi.
Still worth testing the water and maybe another water change...
And at least you know how to do a salt bath now it does work and will chill the koi out too.
please keep us informed always interesting to know the outcome.
regards
Maxine

[avz10]

Will do so during the weekend. Thanks for all the advice

[docballyhoo]

Sounds like a fluke infestation. The koi gasp for air, turn over and act like they are suffacating, because they are. Add some praziquantel or formalin if you are not able to scrape the gills for a scope diagnosis . Salt will not help and will only kill the koi on the edge.

[McKTX]

No one else thinking it could be as simple as brain damage due to O2 deprivation?

Carol

[avz10]

Will report when Im at home on Friday, but the black and white one has totally recovered apparently, and the Kohaku still would go and lie on the bottom of the pond for short periods. My mother arrived on Tuesday and she told me tonight that the Kohaku has only once done it today, and no gasping for air> So it seems as if they are on the road to recovery, but I will go and check (obviously!) when Im home. Will keep you informed

[vipldy]

Will report when Im at home on Friday, but the black and white one has totally recovered apparently, and the Kohaku still would go and lie on the bottom of the pond for short periods. My mother arrived on Tuesday and she told me tonight that the Kohaku has only once done it today, and no gasping for air> So it seems as if they are on the road to recovery, but I will go and check (obviously!) when Im home. Will keep you informed

Great news for sure