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    Thread: Ethics of keeping fish in QT long term

    1. #1
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      Ethics of keeping fish in QT long term

      Here's my situtation - no koi pond. Having lurked on this board for a very long time (long before registering), I know what I want to have: 10,000g pond "done right". I know where I want to put it in the back yard, know what I want it to look like (I'm picturing Marie's beautiful pond in my backyard).

      I just don't have the funds. I've been telling my wife "2009" for awhile, but even that is questionable based on my gut feeling for what this is going to cost. It's hard to justify the huge upfront investment. For Christmas and birthdays, I've received books and magazines. But I can't really get a gift certificate to the local dealer for fish until I have something to put them in! I don't really want to build a smaller pond - especially since it would have to be deep and a minimum of, say, 3000g to survive the winters here anyway. Besides, there's economies of scale at work.

      But the koi kichi bug has bitten me hard. I'll drive to the local dealer just to look at the fish, lurk on this board looking at all of your beautiful fish, scroll through "live koi" on ebay just to look at the pictures. A sad existence, I agree.

      So last night I'm looking through Koi Nations, particularly the article on building a wood QT. I've seen threads on this before, but last night the thought occurred to me - If I'm going to need to build a QT anyway, with its own filtration system, why not build it now and buy 2 or 3 koi? That would help introduce me to the hands-on aspects of koi keeping, including water quality, feeding, fish care, etc. It might even get my wife hooked (though that's unlikely). The only downside is that I understand that it might be harder to maintain a smaller volume of water.

      A 4' x 4' x 8' QT should hold around 900 gallons. Would this be suitable for just 3 koi (initially babies) long term, as in possibly 2 years? If this were in my garage, would the temperature be OK in the winter (and summer, for that matter, since it's all above ground)? I think it fits the criteria of gallons/fish, but I'm not sure of the ethics of having them live in a box...

      So, what would you do? Build a long term QT tank for a few fish, invest $$ in a small outdoor pond that you'd want to make bigger before you even began to dig, or just bite your tongue and keep waiting?



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    2. #2
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      I have 2- 6 inch koi in a 120 gallon aquarium in the family room. they are there until at least April before I can put them outside. The chineses resturant in town has several in smaller aquariums that have been there for years.


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    3. #3
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      We understand your dilemma. I am thinking that this temporary solution might solve one part of your quandry (you get some koi in the very near future), but I am wondering if you'll soon feel bad that they don't have more room to swim around in. Then you'll feel guilty about keeping them there for a year or more. I wouldn't do it. It's different if you were building it now and housing 3 babies ( 6 inchers or under) just for the winter and had a pond for them to go into come late Spring. You'll be running utilities to keep them there too (lighting, filters, etc) and have to do water changes every week. Just something to think about.
      Paula



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    4. #4
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      Yes, you will need a QT. So building it first is a great idea, and 900 gallons is plenty for 3-4 fish. Not so sure I would want to keep fish in the garage for 2 years though without sunlight. If you built a small 1000 gallon pond outside as a QT, you could always use it later as a watergarden. This would give you practice in building a pond.

      You have the right idea to build the best and biggest first rather than rebuilding over and over as many here have done.

    5. #5
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      Talk to Rudy, Marie (Vipldy) and others: their fish had or have been living in a garage for years without harm. I would suggest going as big as you possibly can -- more like 1000 to 1200+. I see nothing wrong with this idea as it will help you learn about their care. But becasue you are learning I would start with pond quality.

    6. #6
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      can you build a QT tank outside - your winters won't be too bad where you are in VA ?

      If you insulate and use a small heater for the worse part - then come spring they will be outside ?

      Failing that I don't see a problem being inside !! - If it is long term - make sure you have an easy way of doing water changes - i.e. can get the water outside or to a drain and have a fresh supply handy via hose or whatever.

      If you think ahead - you can even build the filter system to use on your perm pond - (or part of) getting a more suitable QT filter later - this also spreads the cost a bit for you. Planning ahead will help you greatly later.

      I understand the "bug has bit" part - i can't get my fish until spring - even though my pond is ready and it is a killer !

      I say Go For It
      .
      .








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    7. #7
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      I am in a similar situation. I rent for the time and have been koi crazy for almost three years now. I stated with a 110 gal. fiberglass tank then I built a 300 gallon wood and liner tank in my garage.(this was all pre-Koiphen) I had two small koi in it. WELL that wasn't enough so I then built a 750 gallon addition to the tank and now have almost 1,100 gallons with 5 koi ranging from 6 in to 16 in and all are doing well and growing well. I also have a 6 ft pearls tank With a couple 12 inch koi in it. All is in my garage. I know it is not the most perfect home for them but I maintain my water as near perfect as I can and the koi take care of themselves. With frequent water changes and low level PP doses, it can be done. I want to build a pond in a year or two, if not I will build another 1000 gallon tank. If you have any questions let me know! Dustin
      Watch your thoughts; they become words.
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    8. #8
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      The one problem that jumped out at me is the swing of temp. in a garage over the summer . I know there are things you could do for that , but my garage gets Very hot during the day .

      This can be done ! I have a friend (Club Member) that has around 10 Koi (I don't suggest that many) in a 800 gal. outdoor framed tank . He keeps his filters clean & does water changes OFTEN ! You wouldn't believe the growth he gets from his koi . This would be a way to learn how to keep water .

    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by Luck View Post
      With frequent water changes and low level PP doses, it can be done. Dustin
      If your keeping the filters clean & doing the water changes you should be doing , Why are you doing PP treatments ?

    10. #10
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      My indoor pond is 980 gal. and I have 13 koi in there 12"-24" and DIY filters..The water is spot on,they eat twice a day and get water changes OFTEN Temp is 74..It can be done but it is alot of work atleast for us with this many You will just fine!

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    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by Headache View Post
      If your keeping the filters clean & doing the water changes you should be doing , Why are you doing PP treatments ?
      Mostly to allow me to only change the water every other week and keep my water bill a little lower. I alternate PP and water changes every other week. Now that I am not feeding much at all I will prolly stop the PP till spring.
      Watch your thoughts; they become words.
      Watch your words; they become actions.
      Watch your actions; they become habits.
      Watch your habits; they become character.
      Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.

      Dustin

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by Nightstorm View Post
      Here's my situtation - no koi pond. Having lurked on this board for a very long time (long before registering), I know what I want to have: 10,000g pond "done right". I know where I want to put it in the back yard, know what I want it to look like (I'm picturing Marie's beautiful pond in my backyard).

      I just don't have the funds. I've been telling my wife "2009" for awhile, but even that is questionable based on my gut feeling for what this is going to cost. It's hard to justify the huge upfront investment. For Christmas and birthdays, I've received books and magazines. But I can't really get a gift certificate to the local dealer for fish until I have something to put them in! I don't really want to build a smaller pond - especially since it would have to be deep and a minimum of, say, 3000g to survive the winters here anyway. Besides, there's economies of scale at work.

      But the koi kichi bug has bitten me hard. I'll drive to the local dealer just to look at the fish, lurk on this board looking at all of your beautiful fish, scroll through "live koi" on ebay just to look at the pictures. A sad existence, I agree.

      So last night I'm looking through Koi Nations, particularly the article on building a wood QT. I've seen threads on this before, but last night the thought occurred to me - If I'm going to need to build a QT anyway, with its own filtration system, why not build it now and buy 2 or 3 koi? That would help introduce me to the hands-on aspects of koi keeping, including water quality, feeding, fish care, etc. It might even get my wife hooked (though that's unlikely). The only downside is that I understand that it might be harder to maintain a smaller volume of water.

      A 4' x 4' x 8' QT should hold around 900 gallons. Would this be suitable for just 3 koi (initially babies) long term, as in possibly 2 years? If this were in my garage, would the temperature be OK in the winter (and summer, for that matter, since it's all above ground)? I think it fits the criteria of gallons/fish, but I'm not sure of the ethics of having them live in a box...

      So, what would you do? Build a long term QT tank for a few fish, invest $$ in a small outdoor pond that you'd want to make bigger before you even began to dig, or just bite your tongue and keep waiting?
      Nightstorm! You got it really bad!
      CP



    13. #13
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      I think the idea of an outside tank might be better for the fish? If your winters are not very harsh, with some insulation around the tank (good for both summer and winter) and a hoophouse type structure over it for winter (might look like a covered wagon though lol) I think they would do fine. Drop a 800w heater in the winter and you can probably keep the temps up to maybe even being able to continue feeding through the winter, but at least enough that you would be able to keep them in a safe range.

      Just be careful!! 2 or 3 can multiply quickly to MANY more..and I'm not talking about spawning!!! I just know your type of mentality as do many more on here... "I just GOTTA have that one...." Find a local mentor that will slap your hands

    14. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by Luck View Post
      I am in a similar situation. I rent for the time and have been koi crazy for almost three years now. I stated with a 110 gal. fiberglass tank then I built a 300 gallon wood and liner tank in my garage.(this was all pre-Koiphen) I had two small koi in it. If you have any questions let me know! Dustin
      Have you had any problems with the temperature in the winter? I'm a little concerned that an above ground tank, even in the garage, could freeze solidl



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      "It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change" - C. Darwin



    15. #15
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      What are your winter temperatures?

    16. #16
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      I couldn't cut and paste the temperature graph, but it can be found here:

      http://www.weather.com/outlook/trave...omnav_business

      In January, average highs of 41, lows of 22. Garage helps some, obviously. Maybe I'll leave a bucket of water out there this winter to see what it does...



      -- Chris

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      "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." -- Hubert H. Humphrey

      "It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change" - C. Darwin



    17. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by Nightstorm View Post
      I couldn't cut and paste the temperature graph, but it can be found here:

      http://www.weather.com/outlook/trave...omnav_business

      In January, average highs of 41, lows of 22. Garage helps some, obviously. Maybe I'll leave a bucket of water out there this winter to see what it does...
      remember - won't the water be moving (filters) ???? mid point pickups and returns ?
      .
      .








      WWKC Diamond Lifetime Member #2 I miss you so much Rudy !

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      is worth more than an hour of praise after success"

    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by Nightstorm View Post
      Have you had any problems with the temperature in the winter? I'm a little concerned that an above ground tank, even in the garage, could freeze solidl
      No, temps in the tank rarely drop below 45 degrees even when its 20 outside.
      Watch your thoughts; they become words.
      Watch your words; they become actions.
      Watch your actions; they become habits.
      Watch your habits; they become character.
      Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.

      Dustin

    19. #19
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      I encourage you to get started. There is always a learning curve from hands on experience and you might as well get it started now as later. Write steve direct and ask him what you could change on his plans to make the QT tank movable in a coupla years. You'll always need a good qt Tank.....and there is a difference between what your told in learning and what you pick up by experience. I'm glad to see you excited about getting started. If your concerned about what indoors does to colors you can post a request for
      what folks do with special lighting
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    20. #20
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      I'll let you know about the garage. My pond isn;t done so my fish are in a 10' Intex in an unheated drafty garage (there is a bedroom above the garage). I have a bubble wrap tarp over Intex and filters. So far, garage is 10 degrees warmer than outside and water temp is 4 degrees warmer than the garage -- so water is 14 degrees warmer than outside air. (I know that was simple math but I didn;t want you to have to think too hard on a Friday. ) If that same ratio holds, if we get a 10 degree few days (and every few years we do), my water will freeze. I just bought a bucket heater and will try to rig it up this weekend. (Current temps are 35 outside, 49 in water. Nightime lows in the 20s still aren't noticeably lowering the water temp. Yet.)

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