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  • Results 1 to 19 of 19

    Thread: Bio filter for mud pond?

    1. #1
      mmzullo's Avatar
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      Bio filter for mud pond?

      HI All,
      New here but have been reading for a while now. I have a mud pond(converted wet area in yard). It's about 35x25. 3 to 5 feet deep. It's spring feed and water run off from higher ground. The water is always merky. I've tried to keep it clear but with no luck. I've used a sediment filter with just a pad. Works ok but I have to clean every couple days. There is a waterfall/stream which I built for aeration. I'm not worried about the mery water. I have only two koi in the pond and which spawned so the water is good quality. I dont test the water. I've had gold fish in there for about 10 years. I must have taken about 2 to 3 hundred goldfish out already. There have never been any dead fish. Only the heron takes them on me.
      I'm not good with naming the type of koi. CRS. I think they are called Kin Matsuba. 1's gold and the other is orange. They look like the picture in the Koi id cd. Two large koi are about 14 to 18 inches. But my question is is it worth doing a vortex filter for larger particals in the pond. I do use this for watering the lawn and garden so there are large partical that come through the pump.
      Thanks in advance.
      All coments are welcome.
      Mike

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    2. #2
      luke-gr's Avatar
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      If there is no liner (earth bottomed) I think you would be fighting a losing battle. Ive seen how clear the water can get in the mud ponds over at Koi Village with no fish....it can be clear down a couple feet. Give ten big fish a few hours. No more clear. The fish constantly root around in the mud and stir things up.

    3. #3
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      Hi luke gr,
      Yes it's an earth bottom. I'm not woried about clear water but rather the larger particals of debri in the pond. I think it's from leaves and other plant matter that the koi kick up. My question is will a gravity filter pad clean better then a vortex type filter. Or do you think the leaf matter is too light to be cleaned by a vortex type filter.
      Thanks Mike

    4. #4
      Brian Drake's Avatar
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      Your biofilter is the clay on the bottom of the mudpond.

    5. #5
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      On an established mud pond, the debris created from plants and organic stuff settles to the bottom to be munched by the ponds scavengers, worms, benign bacteria, it turns to a very fine mulm which in turn becomes clay over time.

      There might be some value having an additional bio filter settling pond, to pump water up a small height where it recycles back to the mud pond after plants, roots and settling has allowed suspended particles to separate, a veggy filter configured to return clear water to the mud pond

      Beds of water hyacinth, water mint, parrots feather, aquatic iris... easy to chop up with a mower for mulch to thin out when they bulk up

      Regards, andy
      http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

    6. #6
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      <<...the debris created from plants and organic stuff settles to the bottom to be munched by the ponds scavengers, worms, benign bacteria, it turns to a very fine mulm which in turn becomes clay over time.>>

      Point of interest....clay is an inorganic mineral.
      Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is. And you must bend to its power or live a lie.”― Miyamoto Musashi

      "Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." ~ Jimi Hendrix

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      Craig

    7. #7
      andrew davis's Avatar
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      Clay is hundreds of inorganic minerals

      Regards, andy
      http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

    8. #8
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      "Clay is hundreds of inorganic minerals"

      It can be, but the salient point is that clay minerals are silicates and result primarily from erosion and weathering of silicate bearing rock. So organic mulm does not "becomes clay over time".
      Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is. And you must bend to its power or live a lie.”― Miyamoto Musashi

      "Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." ~ Jimi Hendrix

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      Craig

    9. #9
      mmzullo's Avatar
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      Thanks for all the comments. I think I'm going to put in a sediment filter using filter pads. I have used this for about 2 years and worked good. I just have to make it bigger. I'm almost done with the waterfalls(I think).
      But please any more comments are welcome. As soon as I can figure out how to post pictures I will.
      Thanks Mike

    10. #10
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      I think I got pictures!!
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    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by CraigP View Post
      The salient point is that clay minerals are silicates and result primarily from erosion and weathering of silicate bearing rock. So organic mulm does not "becomes clay over time".
      Exactly correct. Clay is predominately composed of microfine silicates and some oxides. Clay has very little (if any) organic content and it is *not* formed by the decomposition of organics. Clays that are mostly volcanic in origin are utterly devoid of organics, and even those clays which are "organic-rich" tend to less than 1% of free organic content.

      People get this confused all the time. I've had "experts" tell me that clay in a pond "eats-up" KMnO4 something fierce, when in reality it doesn't have any effect on the dosing. What they really are trying to say is mud ponds (with clay linings or bottoms) tend to have an intermixed amount of fresh organics which most certainly WILL eat-up anything that acts like an oxidizer.

      But for the record, clay and mulm are two different things, and one does not the other make.

      Roark
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    12. #12
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      Thanks for the 'clarifications' Craig and Roark.

      Anyway, my clay ponds get crystal clear by June and only get cloudy after hard rains.

      The plants: lotus and lilies eat up any decaying organic debris that settles to the bottom.
      ...Joyce

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    13. #13
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      Sure, mulm becomes clay over time.

      Just dig a large pond, say 1,000 sq ft, with a 5' deep sump area. Plant it heavily with aquatic plants.

      After five or ten years go look at what is in the bottom of the five foot deep area. A very fine grey clay, derived from the minerals that the plants abstracted. Been there, done that.

      Regards, andy
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      http://www.state.ar.us/agc/clay.htm
      The term clay is used in 3 different ways: to designate a diverse group of fine-grained minerals, as a rock or sediment term, and as a particle-size term. Clay is generally defined as any very fine grained, natural, earthy material, which is generally plastic at appropriate water contents and hardens when dried or fired. Despite the lack of a standard definition for clay among geologists, agronomists, engineers, and soil scientists, the term clay is generally understood by all who use it.

    14. #14
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      Back to your question, which is not about clay, but about the crap that is floating in your pond. I am assuming floating?

      A mud pond is not at all like a liner pond, two different animals totally. And with Koi in the pond, you will always have them rooting around for food, it is the nature of the beast. Put in minnows, bluegill and bass, and it will remain pretty clear to several feet down.

      What a mud pond needs is several things, water movement and aeration. Your water falls work only on the pond where the pump and falls are, no where else. You need to aerate the whole pond, not just part of it.

      You also need to clean it over time, as is is not a self cleaning system like your liner pond should be.

      You also mentioned that your water is good because your Koi spawned. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

      You also mention you have a spring coming into the pond. Test the spring water, and the pond water. Need to also have an idea on flow, how much water leaves the pond,etc before I could give you some solutions for the pond.

      Some people use a fountain to add air, others use an air pump and pads.

      Just some thoughts.

      d

    15. #15
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      Andrew the organics are gone and they didn't turn into clay. They might have left mineral deposits behind from what they had disolved within them,which I even doubt, but the organic didn't change into an inorganic.

      Is it possible that the fine silt that you saw is just wind blown mineral that have built up over the years and really had nothing to do with the plants. Is it possible for you to find a chemical forumla for a clay any clay that has carbon, organic base, in it.

      http://www.depauw.edu/acad/art/Facul...ages/clay.html

    16. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by andrew davis View Post
      Sure, mulm becomes clay over time.

      Just dig a large pond, say 1,000 sq ft, with a 5' deep sump area. Plant it heavily with aquatic plants.

      After five or ten years go look at what is in the bottom of the five foot deep area. A very fine grey clay, derived from the minerals that the plants abstracted. Been there, done that.
      Actually, you could have left the plants out entirely and had the same results. Or you could have put a liner in there, kept the plants, and you would NOT be having the same result.

      The point is, the plants are largely irrelevent. Plants don't produce clay. Clay is produced by the weathering of rock, generally feldspar. (Ever wonder why some of the largest clay beds are found next to ancient rivers, oxbows, or floodplains?)

      I think what Andy is seeing is nothing more mysterious than water doing what it's good at, ie, it's being a very efficient transport mechanism for microfines.

      There is clay in just about any type of soil. When you dig a hole in the ground and fill it with water, that water moves constantly. Scavenged fines from elsewhere in the pond (and those trapped when they blew across the surface) will always congregate at the lowest point. What you've produced is basically a settlement chamber. These fines are heavier than water so they go to the bottom.

      Andy states his 10 year old bottom-clay is gray in color. If he is correct in his theory that this bottom-gunk is a true clay and it is produced by plants, then I should be able to dig a pond anywhere, put-in the same plants and get that same color. Except it doesn't work that way.

      Ever wonder why some ponds have a black clay in the pit, others have brown clay, and some even have **white** clay in addition to Andy's gray clay? It has nothing to do with the plants, but has everything to do with the local soil composition. Clay isn't organic. It isn't produced by organic processes. The color, texture and composition of any clay you find in a sump is going to be determined almost entirely by the surrounding soil conditions. That is... provided it's clay and not just mulm.

      Roark
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    17. #17
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      Hello, I see you're in NJ, I am based in NJ also and would be happy to come by and look at the pond. We build filter systems for natural ponds that work very well at not only improving overall water quality but also at stripping sediment form the water for very nice clarity as well. Let me know if you'd like to discuss it. Regards,

    18. #18
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      Mike,
      After todays rain the pond is going to be clear. Now I have to watch out for the heron. I think I gave up on keeping it clear.

    19. #19
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      Red face

      Quote Originally Posted by mmzullo View Post
      Mike,
      After todays rain the pond is going to be clear. Now I have to watch out for the heron. I think I gave up on keeping it clear.
      Hi everyone, been along time since I posted. But this has struck my interest. We also have a mud pond. We have taken out all the fish, put them in the lined pond. It has never been clear. We have Georgia red clay. It holds the water okay. Have used bentonite. Also gypsum granules. The gypsum has helped clear the pond. It absorbs the mud. Out problem is our golden retreivers love the water. Thinking of keeping the pond for them. Since we can never get it cleared up. We have very slick mud in the bottom of the pond. We had also thought of lining the pond, so the dogs would have a clear pond to swim in. Just thought I would let everyone know I am giving up with the mud pond idea. It is just muddy water. Take care, try that gypsum works okay Lynda

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