• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
    Results 1 to 20 of 23

    Thread: sodium bentonite for mud pond?

    1. #1
      Simi Koi's Avatar
      Simi Koi is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2005
      Location
      Simi Valley, CA
      Posts
      3,894

      sodium bentonite for mud pond?

      I have read that the best clay to line a mud pond with is Sodium Bentonite clay. But I am also told that you end up with a thick, mucky bottom that will suck the shoe off your foot if you step in the pond. Is this right? and if so is there a better alternative to Sodium bentonite clay?

    2. #2
      sundan's Avatar
      sundan is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2004
      Location
      Lake Wales Fla
      Posts
      2,091
      You are right, however if you rotortill the clay in with sand, dirt, will work best.

    3. #3
      Simi Koi's Avatar
      Simi Koi is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2005
      Location
      Simi Valley, CA
      Posts
      3,894
      thanks sundan. Rototill was my next question. Didn't know if I should just spread it out or mix with the soil. Thanks!

    4. #4
      cindy's Avatar
      cindy is offline Moderator ~ WWKC Vice President ~
      Koi Health Care Committee Member
      is Hopeful
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Mt. Wash. KY - 7 miles outside Louisville
      Posts
      63,421
      bentonite is what we recommend, that or a liner for the farm ponds.

      I have little booklets on mud ponds. If you want, I'll send it to you Monday. Its at work.
      My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."


      K.O.I.

      Member: EIHIOICGI

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...nd-Information

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...06#post2606106 Show thread

    5. #5
      Graham's Avatar
      Graham is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Location
      Halifax Nova Scotia
      Posts
      5,418
      Is it not calcium bentonite that recommended not sodium which is clumpable kitty litter. I think all ponds are lined with it to prevent them from leaking.

    6. #6
      luke-gr's Avatar
      luke-gr is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2004
      Location
      Boone, NC Zone 6
      Posts
      12,643
      Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
      Is it not calcium bentonite that recommended not sodium which is clumpable kitty litter. I think all ponds are lined with it to prevent them from leaking.
      Huh? Is there a typo in your first sentence, Graham?

    7. #7
      Graham's Avatar
      Graham is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Location
      Halifax Nova Scotia
      Posts
      5,418
      Quote Originally Posted by luke-gr View Post
      Huh? Is there a typo in your first sentence, Graham?

      Huh no, there are two types of bentonite clay or montmorillionite ...calcium and sodium. Sodium is what kitty litter is made out of

    8. #8
      sundan's Avatar
      sundan is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2004
      Location
      Lake Wales Fla
      Posts
      2,091
      Here is some writing I found from Gene. He is the man when it comes to clay....
      I am not an expert on montmorillionite but as I understand it, the sealer for mud ponds is sodium bentonite, which expands significantly more than calcium bentonite, which is the basis of most clay additives for koi health.
      The idea off adding the many trace minerals in the calcium bentonite into what are ponds that have no source of mineral content (rubber liners, polyurea, epoxy sealers, etc.) seems like a common sense type of thing.

      As far as anecdotal evidence goes, I feel the addition of the clay bonds with other suspended particulates in the water column and allows these to be filtered out, leaving the water clearer than without. I also tend to notice fewer surface bubbles after using it, leading me to believe it somehow causes a reduction in DOC levels, but this is purely anecdotal.

      While at the koi show in Charlotte this past weekend I had a chance to talk to Stephen. He asked me about "Koi Clay" and I told him some of the things I had learned about bentonite clay over the past 7 years. He asked me to post some of the information on this forum. Here it is.

      Clay minerals are divided into four major groups. The most important groups are Kaolinite, Montmorillonite/Smectite, Illite (or The Clay-mica) group and the Chlorite group which contains the largest number of types. Many years ago I worked at a brick yard and my brother was the lab tech for the company. They use many types of clay when making bricks as well as make blends to get different colors and effects. I’ve also been involved with ceramics and they also use many types of clay.

      I started raising Comets, Sarasa Comets and Shubunkins in 1991. In 1997 I noticed that another fish farmer near me had Comet goldfish that were very red instead of orange like mine. When I saw how red my friends Comets were I thought they were different from the ones I had and bought some from him. I took some of them to our garden shop we had at the time and sold them, but I put some in one of my mud ponds. Over a period of time the red on those Comets changed to more of an orange. My friend and I both were feeding the same type of food so I started looking for other reasons for the change. The one difference I noticed between our ponds was the clay soil his ponds were dug in. It had a different color than my clay so I decided to look into that area for the cause.

      Once I started looking for information on benefits of clay for fish I found out that many of the higher end koi hobbyists used bentonite / montmorillonite clay to add to their closed ponds to enhance the koi’s color and white ground. I found several major brands of bentonite clay being sold for this purpose, but the price was very high, and being the resourceful person that I am I knew I could find a much cheaper source since I knew so much about clay. Well, I thought I knew a lot about clay, but I found out that I didn’t really, and then I thought I did, and then I found out I didn’t… Actually, the only real knowledge I gained was that the best clay for life is bentonite / montmorillonite clay, of which there are two (calcium bentonite and sodium bentonite) and that calcium bentonite is the best clay for koi ponds and water gardens.

      Over the years I’ve collected samples from bentonite clay mines from around the world. The ones that were advertised for koi ponds all said they were the best for that use. Since that couldn’t be true I set out to find out which one was really the best. The only way I knew to find the answer to that question was to send the samples to a lab for testing. I couldn’t afford to send all the samples to a lab, but any time I could scrape up enough cash I’d send samples to the lab for mineral analysis. The results from the first six samples literally dropped my jaw. The differences were amazing. Each of the six had the same minerals present but there was a big difference in the percentages of those minerals. One sample had a calcium content of 21.8% and another sample had a calcium content of 2.81%. From the next group of samples I sent to the lab one had a calcium content of 1.7%. All the samples I sent to the lab were calcium bentonite clay with a purity level of 95% or better. Here are some comments from the lab tech on some of the samples I had analyzed.

      “Samples R03-0173, R03-0174, are roughly 95% pure bentonite. Sample R03-0176 is roughly 98-100% pure bentonite. Sample R03-0175, R03-0177, R03-0178 contains a large part of impurities including silica and calcite. Samples R03-0326, R03-0327, R03-0328 and R03-0329 were tested on 4/15/03. Sample R03-0327 contained a large amount of calcite resulting in the high calcium number on the XRF data.”

      I was very excited when I found my local co-op carried bentonite clay in 50 lb. bags. Written on the bag was “100% bentonite clay”. It should have been “100% sodium bentonite clay. I was doing physical test on the clay from the co-op and three other samples I had bought. The first thing I do with any new sample is put one level teaspoon of the clay in 4 ounces of water, let it sit a couple minutes and swirl the jar to see how well it goes into suspension. Before I got to the jar with the co-op clay it had sucked up all the water and stuck to the glass like glue. I had to scrape it out with a spoon and use a scrubby to clean it out of the jar. I didn’t bother to send that sample to the lab. No matter what the mineral analysis it would not work for recirculating ponds but it would be good for sealing a dam in a mud pond.

      By the winter of 2000 after many emails and phone conversations with heads of geological sciences at major universities, the heads of the ceramic departments at those universities, agriculture extension agents that specialize in clay, koi breeders, koi hobbyist and anyone else that had anything to say about clay I came to the conclusion that as much as we thought we knew it’s just the tip of the iceberg.

      Sometime back in the 50’s one of the major pineapple farmers in Hawaii was losing his crop. They were doing all the same things as in previous years but their plants were dying. Fortunately they discovered that a trace element that was essential for pineapple growth had been leached from the soil. Once they found a source for that trace element they were able to save the crop and avoid total disaster.

      Bentonite clay not only provides needed minerals but it also removes poisons/toxins from animals. Macaws and Amazon parrots regularly visit what is called “clay licks” to ingest clay. Here is a direct quote from a web site about these birds:

      “First, macaw and parrot clay licks are special deposits of clay along riverbanks or sometimes in the forest interior in the Amazon rainforest. The birds flocks to the clay, usually in waves that start at 600 or 630 am and end at 1100 am or noon, to eat thumb-sized lumps each day. The clay appears to detoxify the nasty poisons in their diets of seeds of rainforest trees and vines.”

      What it boils down to is plants and animals need all the necessary vitamins, minerals and trace elements to function at peak performance. In order for an automobile to maintain peak performance it has to have exactly the right mixture of gas and air, a good exhaust system, clean filters, proper adjustment of the timing, etc. Even though they will still get you there most of the time with a couple plugs not firing or too much gas to air mixture they will not last as long and will use more gas as well as produce more pollution. If plants don’t have the needed minerals they will not grow as well and will be more prone to parasites and disease. If animals don’t have the needed minerals the immune function will not perform well and they are more prone to allergies and other health problems.

      The only type of clay that provides minerals as well as removing toxins from the body is bentonite clay. While the clay is traveling through the digestive system it picks up toxins, but it also releases the minerals which leach through the sides of the intestines and gets into the blood stream. When you hear all the benefits of bentonite clay to animals it sounds like a pitch form one of the “Snake Oil” salesmen. How could anything truly provide all those benefits? It’s simple; all the clay does is provide the body with the one or few trace minerals that is lacking in their diet. By doing so it just allows the body’s immune system to perform the way it should. Everything that any living thing needs to function properly is in nature and all we have to do is use it. We humans have a tendency to “smart” ourselves to death.

      One area that I got into was very fascinating. I found out that the clay they use in health spas for mud baths and facials is calcium bentonite clay. Bentonite clay is also sold in health food stores for human consumption to clean the colon and provide the body with minerals and trace minerals that are now lacking from our foods and water. At one time these minerals and trace elements were in our soils but due to extensive farming they have been leached out and they haven’t been replaced. Bentonite clay with a purity level of 95%+ contains no less than 67 colloidal minerals. Colloidal means the minerals are in suspension and are easily assimilated by plants and animals. In order to function at peak performance plants and animals need a good balance of minerals. We’ve known for a long time how important vitamins are to our health but it has only been in the past 10 years or so that the medical professionals are starting to realize just how important minerals are to health.

      Bentonite clay has over 1,000 uses. It can be found in toothpaste, candy bars, shoe polish, plastics and too many other products to mention, including pharmaceuticals. It is used for well drilling mud as a lubricant and to help discharge the rock particles from the hole. One source of bentonite clay is used to clarify cooking oil and it is also used to clarify wine. I’ve collected and tested samples from all these sources and more. Just because it is “bentonite” or “montmorillonite” clay doesn’t mean it will be the best for our ponds. All calcium bentonite clay is beneficial for koi but I wanted to know which one was the most beneficial. If I was going to add clay to my ponds I wanted it to provide the best results. The only way I knew to decide which would be best was to find out what the mineral requirements are for koi. Of all the samples of the major brands of clay on the market for koi ponds “Refresh” had the best balance of minerals. Fortunately there was another sample that was from a mine here in the US that was extremely close to “Refresh” so in March 2002 I put it on the market as “Koi Clay”.


      This covers just a little bit of what I’ve learned about bentonite clay. I started this research to benefit the koi here at Koi Village and not to find something to sell. Once I discovered the clay I wanted to use I realized I could offer it to my loyal customers for a fraction of what they would have to pay for “Refresh”, “Refine”, TeraPond”, and some of the other brands on the market. I did offer it wholesale to a couple of my friends in the business but all the others came to me.


      The feedback I’ve gotten from those that have been using “Koi Clay” is fantastic. One of the most exciting reports came from Terry Knauer who owns Economy Aquatic Gardens in Louisville, KY. Cindy knows Terry so she may want to ask him about his experience. I had been dealing with Terry since 2000 and he was one of the first retail distributors of “Koi Clay”. He told me that he received a box of 6” Japanese import koi from a dealer that were “eat up” with mouth rot. He told me he dumped a 6 lb. box of “Koi Clay” into a 100 gallon tank and fed them sinking food so they would have to root around in the clay to get the food. He didn’t use any antibiotic food or any chemical treatment. He went on to tell me that he only lost a couple of those koi and the rest healed up without any scars.

      If you have any questions I’ll do my best to answer them. If I don’t have the answer I will try to find it. There is no doubt that there are others out there that know more about this subject than I but they are very hard to find. If any of you know someone that can tell me more about bentonite clay please let me know who they are and how I can contact them.
      __________________
      Gene

    9. #9
      Graham's Avatar
      Graham is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Location
      Halifax Nova Scotia
      Posts
      5,418
      good post and worth keeping in the clay file

    10. #10
      luke-gr's Avatar
      luke-gr is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2004
      Location
      Boone, NC Zone 6
      Posts
      12,643
      Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
      Huh no, there are two types of bentonite clay or montmorillionite ...calcium and sodium. Sodium is what kitty litter is made out of
      EDIT: I am aware of that, but your post was written as "Is it not calcium bentonite that recommended not sodium which is clumpable kitty litter. I think all ponds are lined with it to prevent them from leaking.", which has the word "not" before calcium and before sodium so I wasnt sure what you were saying.

      Sundan's post confirmed what I thought was right. Im OK.
      Last edited by luke-gr; 09-15-2007 at 10:43 PM.

    11. #11
      Andrew Hoag is offline Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2007
      Location
      Canada, Ontario
      Posts
      60

      Very interesting Sundan

      This clay sounds ideal for koi health/ growth, but tell me. I just built a 75,000 gallon( 25 ft x 75 ft x 10 ft deep ) mud pond. We lined the pond walls with the clay which we dug up from under the earth. Are people accually bringing in thousands of pounds of clay from other places and lining their mud ponds with this. Wouldn't this cost thousands of dollars to do?

      Also, where does one go to have their clay tested? The koi I have in my present ponds ( two year old ponds ) seem to have good hi and shiro and good health. Could this mean I have good clay here in ontario, Canada.

      Thank you for any help.

      Andrew

    12. #12
      Gene's Avatar
      Gene is offline Koi/Pond Supply Business Owner
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      East Tennessee
      Posts
      6,963
      The only time you need to add clay while building a mud pond is if you have sandy or rocky soil that will not hold water. If you have enough clay in your soil you don't have to add anything.

      If you do need additional clay the best choice is sodium bentonite.

      Both calcium and sodium bentonite come in different purity levels depending on the source. Kitty Litter is made from the lowest quality (cheapest) of sodium bentonite.

      The only difference between natural sodium bentonite and calcium bentonite is the relationship of calcium and sodium. If the percentage of sodium is higher than the percentage of calcium it is sodium bentonite and if the percentage of calcium is higher than the sodium content it is calcium bentonite.
      Gene




      WWKC Annual Member # 1

      http://www.koivillage.com

      The only failures are those that stop trying!

      There is a very thin line between procrastination and delayed gratification.

      You won't be happy with what you want, if you aren't happy with what you have.

      It's not what you are looking at, but where you are looking from.

    13. #13
      JMorris271's Avatar
      JMorris271 is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2006
      Location
      Columbia, SC
      Posts
      2,164
      This makes me wonder why I am busting my back digging through red and white clay to put in a liner. My first 2 ft is mostly sand but after that, all clay.

    14. #14
      Ellie's Avatar
      Ellie is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2007
      Location
      Las Cruces, New Mexico, USA
      Posts
      1,306
      Where would one buy calcium bentonite is huge quantities if they had sandy or rocky soil?

    15. #15
      stephen's Avatar
      stephen is online now Koiphen Member
      WWKC Lifetime Charter Diamond Member #2
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Location
      Koiphenville
      Posts
      31,143
      Quote Originally Posted by Ellie View Post
      Where would one buy calcium bentonite is huge quantities if they had sandy or rocky soil?
      Like Gene said, sodium bentonite would be the best bet under those soil conditions.

      http://www.sturgismaterials.com/bentonite.htm

    16. #16
      cindy's Avatar
      cindy is offline Moderator ~ WWKC Vice President ~
      Koi Health Care Committee Member
      is Hopeful
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Mt. Wash. KY - 7 miles outside Louisville
      Posts
      63,421
      Or contact your local farm store.
      My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."


      K.O.I.

      Member: EIHIOICGI

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...nd-Information

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...06#post2606106 Show thread

    17. #17
      DebbieKSW's Avatar
      DebbieKSW is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2007
      Location
      Tamworth Aust
      Posts
      2,840
      It is commonly used here in Australia to line farm dams.
      Debbie
      K.S.A. member

      let me be a little kinder




    18. #18
      PapaBear is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2006
      Location
      Elsewhere
      Posts
      1,827
      Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Hoag View Post
      This clay sounds ideal for koi health/ growth, but tell me. I just built a 75,000 gallon( 25 ft x 75 ft x 10 ft deep ) mud pond. We lined the pond walls with the clay which we dug up from under the earth. Are people accually bringing in thousands of pounds of clay from other places and lining their mud ponds with this. Wouldn't this cost thousands of dollars to do?

      Also, where does one go to have their clay tested? The koi I have in my present ponds ( two year old ponds ) seem to have good hi and shiro and good health. Could this mean I have good clay here in ontario, Canada.

      Thank you for any help.

      Andrew
      There is a very good chance your clay has a high montmorillionite content as it is. Some of the best sources for it are in the northern Rockies and surrounding plains.
      As Gene already mentioned, adding clay is only called for if you have the wrong soil type to begin with (leaky that is). Supplementing your pond with mineral clays to maximize the health benefits of a mud pond really revolve around maintaining optimal water conditions.

    19. #19
      Chatterbox is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2008
      Location
      EDMONTON ALBERTA CANADA
      Posts
      5
      Hello All. Fellow Ponders & Mud Ponders:

      Sodium Bentonite can be Purchase right here in Canada..The Plant is Located in Wilcox, Saskatchewan . The name of the Distributor is called
      "Canadian Clay"
      Here is the link for their website..
      http://www.canadianclay.com/

      I hope that helps fellow Mud pond builders on obtaining Sodium Bentonite locally.
      Thanks Lyle...(Chatterbox)

    20. #20
      Tristan's Avatar
      Tristan is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Under the bridge
      Posts
      5,501
      Sodium bentonite is what well drillers use. It is found in the western area of the USA (Montana, Wyoming etc) in the states, while calcium bentonite is found in various areas like in the south east. Calcium bentonite will work but it will take a lot more of it to do the job. Sodium is the way to go and if its a new pond, the best is to layer it in and roto till. I have sandy soils, in some areas of where my ponds are built and it always seeped out slowly but not enough to worry about. I eventually added sodium bentonite by broadcasting on the surface in the seep area and it stopped the seep. Later on I had an opportunity form a commercial well drilling company that was looking for a place to dump their well drillers mud on weekends. Seems they like to dump the mud and start with fresh at least weekly as it gets too thick or too thin or something like that. They said it was nothing but sodium bentonite and water, so I allowed them to pour it in my ponds one weekend. A huge tanker truck showed up with a crew of guys in a stake body truck and a pickup truck. They hooked up hoses and started to flow it all around my pond edges, you could see it flowing or creeping out into the pond. They also sprayed the slurry mix out into the ponds as well. Now I no longer have any seeps or leaks, my grandkids swim in the ponds as well as my dogs, and there really is no sign of bentonite ever being put in the water to begin with as its mixed into the sub soils etc. No worse than any Natural mud pond would be.

    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •