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  • Results 1 to 7 of 7

    Thread: "Generational Lineage"

    1. #1
      Noahsnana's Avatar
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      "Generational Lineage"

      While reading an article in Koi Nations about Generational Lineage of a breeder. The article sites the culture and inheritance of the Japanese breeders.

      My question would be of the quality of the koi generation to generation. Has superior development come from new techniques or has the old style of the older generation of fish breeder remained? Have they achieved greater than their forefathers or are they still striving to meet the standards of the past?
      Last edited by Noahsnana; 07-29-2007 at 02:28 PM.
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    2. #2
      mike pfeffer is offline Senior Member
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      I think certain varieties have come a long way, example shiro utsuri, which suggests that the current generation of breeders have taken what their forefathers have left them and improved upon the brood stock.

    3. #3
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      One thing that I didn't know, that I just read, is that Japanese breeders use the same lineage for breeding to keep the line pure. The article stated that this inbreeding causes some genetic problems but also offers the best chance for good fish.

      I always thought that you didn't use fish or any animal from the same parent just for that reason. Are fish different?

      I think the article was in the new Koi USA.
      Steve


    4. #4
      Noahsnana's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by steveamy View Post
      One thing that I didn't know, that I just read, is that Japanese breeders use the same lineage for breeding to keep the line pure. The article stated that this inbreeding causes some genetic problems but also offers the best chance for good fish.

      I always thought that you didn't use fish or any animal from the same parent just for that reason. Are fish different?

      I think the article was in the new Koi USA.

      Maybe it was the statement in Koi Nations...

      "Much has been written about the Matsunosuke blood line, often describing it as though there are two venerable old koi tucked away somewhere, one male and one female and all his present koi are direct descendents".
      The will of God will not take you where the grace of God cannot keep you. .....
      "I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." -Winston Churchill Zone 7a
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    5. #5
      Noahsnana's Avatar
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      It was said that Tashio of Isawa Nishikigoi Centre has of the last 20 yrs been breeding back into Nishikigoi the blood of Magoi, for greater growth and better structure. There has also been improvement in sumi.
      The will of God will not take you where the grace of God cannot keep you. .....
      "I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." -Winston Churchill Zone 7a
      I believe it can happen... Koi World Peace
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    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by Noahsnana View Post
      Maybe it was the statement in Koi Nations...

      "Much has been written about the Matsunosuke blood line, often describing it as though there are two venerable old koi tucked away somewhere, one male and one female and all his present koi are direct descendents".
      I found it in the Purdin Koi farm article of Koi USA. It talks about the Japanese "brand". Line breeding which means that each bloodline is bred only to itself. "Generates a high incidence of genetic flaws".

      Probably the same thing as the Matsunosuke blood line breeding.
      Steve


    7. #7
      PapaBear is offline Senior Member
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      There are a lot of directions this thread could take, but here are a few small observations.
      "Bloodlines" are much like trees. They have roots, but also have branches. The famous "Rose" bloodline is descended from one original female, but she produced several daughters from different fathers, who were likewise bred to different fathers and so on. Their offspring have some common ancestry, but also enough genetic "outsourcing" to keep the Rose line genetically strong and producing different beni and shiroji characteristics depending on the branch being spawned.
      Intensive line breeding can and does lead to genetic weakness and high rates of abnormalities, so intense culling removes defects regularly.
      What several breeders have done in recent years is breed back magoi blood into their stock with the twofold benefit of adding size and genetic vigor to the offspring. This tends to reduce the higher rates of physical defects, but takes several generations of careful breeding to "re-refine" the look of the line.
      Toshio Sakai has done some outstanding work with the Matsunosuke line by selectively breeding just the right pairings and magoi stock to produce size, strength, and quality that most of us haven't had the chance to see. Sanke with Marusome Kiwa in both the Beni AND the Sumi, and the sumi has the look of thick black velvet. Even in a picture it makes your eyes bug out...
      Ok... enough ramble from me. It's late and I'm feeling a bit 'verklempt'... talk amongst yourselves...

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