Abdominal swelling

[avz10]

I have previously discussed the problems that I have with abdominal swelling and in the last year I have had 3 deaths because of it.
The one with current swelling is the white one(1st two pictures) (I'm a newbie!!)(What are the black spots?).
I also need to know about pop eyes-Should I do anything about it(3rd picture)
Could someone help me to name my fish in the fourth picture?
The last picture shows one of the fish that have died.
Any advice will be helpful!

[Carl]

I have previously discussed the problems that I have with abdominal swelling and in the last year I have had 3 deaths because of it.
The one with current swelling is the white one(1st two pictures) (I'm a newbie!!)(What are the black spots?).
I also need to know about pop eyes-Should I do anything about it(3rd picture)
Could someone help me to name my fish in the fourth picture?
The last picture shows one of the fish that have died.
Any advice will be helpful!

AV

A few things will cause swelling and bulging eyes, the most likely of which is dropsy, which is a symptom of a problem, not the actual disease. Dropsy can be caused by several things

The other causes for swelling are tumors and eggs. Koi can die as a result of being egg bound.

In your case, the problem is likely to be water quality. To get effective assistance here, you need to test you water and post the exact results here. That will help the experts formulate a response.

They will also want to know the size of the pond, particularly the volume of water, how the pond is filtered, how often you perform maintenance on the filtration, and when was the last time you performed any maintenance, water changes or added new fish.

[cindy]

Also, what do you feed?

[avz10]

I will let you know. I will take photos of my pond tomorrow and send you details of my system. (Evening in South Africa!)

Cindy, I basically feed them with pellets. I try to buy good quality, but one is not always sure. I also occasionally give them brown bread, but that is basically it.

[FishOCD]

I am not an expert by any definition, but it doesn't look like the dropsy I have seen where the fish belly and body swells uniformly. It's lumpy, like something is growing in there. Are there any parasites unique to Africa that could do this? Some sort of worm?

I am hoping the people on this board can help your fish, but if another one dies, perhaps you should do a rudimentary necropsy. Visually see if there is a large parasite, if not then scrape and scope.

Good luck and sorry you have to go through this.

[KoiCare]

When exactly were these photos taken?
The photos do not look at all like dropsy! This is either Egg Impaction or a Tumour - my best guess is egg impaction.

Did you keep your pond heated throughout winter and did you feed your fish right throughout winter?

We have had a very bad year this year with little rain, and funny temperatures, a really odd Spring going into Summer Period as well - a couple of people I know all lost fish due to egg impaction this year.

With egg impaction as the female enlarges the spine will bend quiet considerably almost banana shaped, the eyes will also tend to push outwards at the intense pressure - and if you do not inject with hormones (and hand strip the female - and the risks of this are also high at loosing her anyway) you will probably find that her intestines will burst out of the side of her body and the fish dies a really terrible death!

I do not know where you are in SA, but if I were you I would contact Dr Alshof (011) 679-1042, and tell him that you have a good suspicion that you have a female which is egg bound and ask him whether he can come out to look at her! and at the same time he can bring the hormone injections. I personally doubt that it is a tumour as the swelling is symetrical on all the sides - tumours normally do not present symetrically.
But I am not a Fish Vet - so I could be wrong!

Give him a call - if anyone can help you he can!

Also, give us all an answer about the feeding and heating!

[avz10]

Will take more photos today and let you know.

Thanks for all the responses!

[Lee B]

Koi Care is correct: a tumor would be more to one side, and usually more pronounced in one area. Your fish is equally distended on all sides. Your weather is the opposite of ours ... you're going into Winter whereas we're headed for Summer. If your fish has not dropped her eggs at this point, she's unable to do so. And if she's forced to remain in this condition through Winter, she will not make it.

Make that call ... at least someone local will be able to give you a little more assistance with injections and whatever else may be needed.

Oh, FYG: the fish is a Platinum Ogon. The black speckles are "shimi", unwanted black spots that usually develop on fish you really, REALLY wish wouldn't develop them (like Kohaku!). Sometimes it's a result of hard water, but most of the time it's genetics.

In the 4th photo, you have your Ogon, the white and red fish is a Kohaku, the red and black fish is a Hi Utsuri, and the red, white and black fish is a Sanke. If the black was more forward, onto the head, it would be a Showa - but you have a Sanke.

[avz10]

To answer some of the questions:

I have tested my water again today: Nitrates; Ammonia and pH all fine. Salt at 2,9%
With regards to heating of the pond. It is end of summer now. I don’t heat the pond in winter. I normally stop feeding when the temperature is below 10°C.
Remember, the one with the swelling is not the one with pop eyes.
All the photos were taken 2 days ago, except for the last one-probably a year ago.

With regards to parasites, I used a commercial parasite “cure” with Malachite green 6mg per ml and Formaldehyde 40% 6 weeks ago.

I have a ±10 000liter pond with 2 outlets.
(1st photo)

The one is a top drain that feeds the water to the bottom of a sump that I have divided in two with a wall. In that first part I have ten bags of plastic “off cuts”. (2nd photo)


The water pushes upwards through this filter, over the wall, into the second chamber. (Third photo: Ten cm from the bottom it is sucked by a swimming pool filter, through the weir, through the coarse sand, through a 30 Watt UV light, through one of those high pressure bio filters with bio tubes into the pool by means of a waterfall and a Venturi (it splits). (last photo)

Then there is a “bottom drain” It is merely a pipe lying on the bottom and constantly sucking water to the weir, sand filter etc. So basically my two systems come together just before the weir/swimming pool filter. I do have problems with the sand clogging, especially in summer


Hope this all clear and not totally confusing. I leave both systems always on, but after 2-3 days the return pressure is often low and the waterfall is slow. So I need to backwash and stir the sand.

Any comments about my fish, types, etc?

[Carl]

Below is a quote re popeye. My understand is that your current proplem is with the two white fish, one of which is bloated the other has popeye. Is that correct? If so, I don't believe you CURRENTLY have an egg problem, though that may have been the case with the sanke (red, white, black koi).

(Edit - It's possible that you have an egg problem with the swollen one. Can you get better pics of that one?)

You did not mention the nitrite reading and you did not give the exact nitrate and ammonia readings. Can you provide those?


"Popeye, or exophthalmia is the condition of an eye wherein it protrudes from its normal position in a socket. For years in the literature, the causes of exophthalmia were few, and almost all literature surveyed suggested it was a mycobacterial infection, or Tuberculosis forming an abscess or granuloma behind the eye. In this case, that may very well be true, and you should be aware that there are few drugs effective against piscine tuberculosis, there are even fewer that can access the space behind the eye. In humans,m these infections are still hard to treat becasue the space behind the eye is isolated from real good vascular supply. As well, tuberculosis, particularly the one for fish, is transmissable to humans through open sores. I'm not saying it's always TB, but it could be, so avoid contact. Other causes of pop eye include viral and other causes of inflammation to the Choroid or vessels leading to the eyeball itself, and trauma ranks high in this group. If the eye does not get picked OFF when it protrudes like this, it is entirely possible that it could actually pull back in as the swelling behind the eye reduces. Let me say a word or two more about bacterial or TB pop eye. It spreads slowly, and gets its foothold through stress. Be sure water quality is optimal, and that the diet and temperature are perfect for the chosen species you maintain. You can try antibiotics with this, even injected ones if the fish warrants it, but I really suggest you not get your hopes up."

http://www.fishdoc.net/faq/faq_details.php?faqId=3412

[Lee B]

Your filtration is quite efficient, and your rockwork is NICE. I live in an area where there aren't any rocks; any rocks I get I have to pay for, usually something in the vicinity of $.15 to $.65 (USD) per POUND. So, nice rockwork always makes me envious . Especially BIG rocks.

I'd give Dr. Alshof a call and ask his opinion. He's local and can be an invaluable resource to you.

[Lee B]

FWIW: Mycobacterial/TB infections are relatively uncommon in koi. When they do occur, they're usually in conjunction with other symptoms, such as "wasting disease". Bacterial infections are a much more common cause for popeye.

It's always a good idea to wear latex gloves when handling the fish; if not, then make sure that your hands are well washed afterwards.

[Luck]

To answer some of the questions:

I have tested my water again today: Nitrates; Ammonia and pH all fine. Salt at 2,9%
With regards to heating of the pond. It is end of summer now. I don’t heat the pond in winter. I normally stop feeding when the temperature is below 10°C.
Remember, the one with the swelling is not the one with pop eyes.
All the photos were taken 2 days ago, except for the last one-probably a year ago.

With regards to parasites, I used a commercial parasite “cure” with Malachite green 6mg per ml and Formaldehyde 40% 6 weeks ago.

I have a ±10 000liter pond with 2 outlets.
(1st photo)

The one is a top drain that feeds the water to the bottom of a sump that I have divided in two with a wall. In that first part I have ten bags of plastic “off cuts”. (2nd photo)


The water pushes upwards through this filter, over the wall, into the second chamber. (Third photo: Ten cm from the bottom it is sucked by a swimming pool filter, through the weir, through the coarse sand, through a 30 Watt UV light, through one of those high pressure bio filters with bio tubes into the pool by means of a waterfall and a Venturi (it splits). (last photo)

Then there is a “bottom drain” It is merely a pipe lying on the bottom and constantly sucking water to the weir, sand filter etc. So basically my two systems come together just before the weir/swimming pool filter. I do have problems with the sand clogging, especially in summer


Hope this all clear and not totally confusing. I leave both systems always on, but after 2-3 days the return pressure is often low and the waterfall is slow. So I need to backwash and stir the sand.

Any comments about my fish, types, etc?

Was that a 2.9% on your salt level? Or did you mean .29%?

[Joey S]

Yes, I hope the salt is only .29%. But if it weren't, I don't think we would see fish swimming.

[Luck]

That's true. Just a bit scary to read.

[avz10]

Thanks for all the responses.

I will need time to go through all the opinions. Will use this forum in future!!

Any other comments on my filter system? It struggles in summer with all the algae.

I attach 3 photos- 2 of the one with pop eyes and one of the bloated one.

with regards to salt, I normally put 10kg in to get it to raise by 1%. This is the reading that I get from the local pool shop- perhaps 10kg on 10 000 litre will then raise it by 0,1%!

[KoiCare]

Just do not take too long to call Dr Alshof! Time is not on your side at this moment! Egg impaction (which is what it looks like to me) is very serious - and the fish will most definately 100% die without urgent treatment! On the pop-eye fish - he can advise you on the course of treatment!

[Merlin]

Now this thread has mad me sad , the white ogon is the spiting image of the one I lost, right down to the yellow eyelids sadly in my case it was a tumour . I would post some pics but unfortunately my PC is now sick and I am working off an old one .


Hope you manage to save your Koi

Edit: managed to find 2 on photobucket.

[avz10]

Thanks everyone, will give him a call next week.
Long weekend in South Africa and we are going away!

[avz10]

Some feedback:

I spoke to dr Alshof, who feels that the swelling can be due to eggs-very symmetrical-but it is too cold to inject the fish now, so he suggests that I keep an eye on the fish.

He also feels that the one with the pop-eyes, I should just observe, as it is not too bad.

So this is what I'm gonna do, will keep you posted