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    Thread: New pond shape ideas needed; Pics inside!

    1. #1
      vtextc is offline Junior Member
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      New pond shape ideas needed; Pics inside!

      Hey all,

      My wife and I moved into our new house last fall. As you may have read elsewhere, we're building our first new pond with the help of a contractor. Since our house is brand new, most of the landscaping will be completed this summer. First off, some stats about the pond:

      -Appx. 12'x10'x3' in size.
      -Few marginal shelves with the idea of maximizing water volume
      -Biofalls system with 3' height and two tiers
      -Skimmer and mechanical filteration
      -4 underwater lights
      -Auto fill valve
      -Rock lined with Alberta Fieldstone/rainbow blend

      Now, this is where you all come in. I'm looking for ideas for the pond shape. The third picture with the red markings indicate where a patio will be installed at the base of the existing deck. The pond will lie to the top and left of the patio, with the falls being installed in the top left hand side of the picture where the two fence sections intersect.

      Feel free to edit/chop up the picture and post here with your ideas. Scale is not so much of an issue as my empty head at the moment which is having a rough time conjuring up what shape might suit the lay of the land best. While I know that most pond shapes are purely subjective, I'm looking for ideas to get my creative juices flowing.

      Two considerations to shape:
      1) We're planning on mulching and planting around the pond, so some soft contours might lend well to growing plants around the pond
      2) We would like a smooth transition between the patio and the edges of the pond, such that parts of the patio almost appear as an "island" or pier in the pond.

      Here are the various pictures of the area where the pond will sit. Sketch away!

      Cheers
      Asif
      PS-Don't mind the laundry being hung out to dry!




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    2. #2
      Dwight is offline Senior Member
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      A kidney shape wrapping around the patio would be nice. First I must bring up a few points about your pond criteria. If you are building a KOI pond it needs to be deeper and have a bottom drain or two. Also rocks in the pond are simply a place for muck and gunk to hide. If the rocks are cemented in they will disappear after a couple of years so they are basically a detrement either way. You will also need bio filtration along with mechanical filtration. Is your contractor a pool builder. If so he should know all of this.

    3. #3
      kdmatrix is offline Senior Member
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      First of all.. Welcome to the forum.

      Second.. why do you want the pond location right under the patio steps? I would move it to the left of the patio.. safety purposes.

      What type of fishes are you going to raise? If koi.. I would suggest make it deeper..
      Kevin D.

    4. #4
      CarolinaGirl is offline Inactivated
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      First of all, Welcome to Koiphen!!! OK...now the suggestions. First...in your area, 3' deep is not enough for koi. Go deeper.....at least 5'. Also....forget the rocks in the bottom. Rocks are pretty...but create stagnant areas that harbor bacteria and parasites. Your pond will need at least one bottom drain for pulling water from the bottom of the pond and sending it to the filter, much like a toilet drain does. Without a bottom drain, your fish are living in an unflushed toilet. Most of their waste and uneaten food ends up on the bottom. Not a healthy environment at all! Read thru the threads here in the construction forum...you'll learn a lot about the requirments of koi.

    5. #5
      vtextc is offline Junior Member
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      Hey folks,

      Thanks for the warm welcome. Now to answer all the questions (which I anticipated anyway

      I have considered a kidney shape as well, and want to design it such that I can implement a small decorative bridge in the future as well. The bulk of the pond will actually lie to the left of the patio, with maybe a small over hang on top of the patio to serve as a "viewing area" if you will. This section will be shallower with marginal plants.

      Which leads me to the next question. I've always had ponds without rocks, and thought I'd shake things up a bit and add rocks this time. With planting in mind, I'm aiming for more of a watergarden look, and not so much a sterile "koi pond" per se. I anticipate on planting directly into the rock substrate. Any koi I add will be merely to satisfy my childhood nostalgia, and not so much for show/breeding purposes. Stocking of the pond will be very light at first, since I don't know how well the fish will winter up here.

      As far as the depth goes, I knew I'd take some heat for this, and while I too would like a 4-5' depth, here are my reasons. Calgary bylaw states that any outdoor water feature cannot exceed 30" in depth. If it does, the owner requires a 6" wooden fence that is locked and sign posted around the feature itself. A garden fence alone does not suffice. That said, with a 36" depth, discretion (I hope) can be exercised, and this coupled with a few shallower areas of the pond will help me squeak by the tenets of the bylaw. Subjectively as well, it just seems to me that a 3' pond is that much safer than a 5' or deeper pool.

      I've also been told that the water freezing line up here is 18" A 36" depth should enable fish lots of space even during one of our typical January deep freezes.

      Also, I chose not to incorporate the bottom drains for one simple reason. Despite having both mechanical and biological filteration, our climate can only sustain having a running pond between May-October at best. From Halloween to Easter, it is likely that 90% of the ponds systems will be shut down, including most of the filters. That said, is it still cost efficient to plumb in a bottom drain?

      Again, your thoughts, comments and suggestions are most welcome.
      Thanks for your prompt replies!
      Asif

    6. #6
      kntry's Avatar
      kntry is offline 2017 KPOTY
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      Welcome to Koiphen.

      Leave the shelves out, too. Make sides as straight as possible. You may need cinder block walls so the sides don't cave in. The shelves are another place to collect crud and harbor bacteria, they take away water volume which is more important and give predators a place to hunt from. If you're putting shelves for plants, build some pvc "tables". You can move them around the pond and after a season, they'll be covered with algae so you won't see them.

      The rocks are a big no-no. They'll be covered in algae in a year or two so you won't see much of them either.

      You may want to raise the edge of the pond 6" to 1' to keep run off out of the pond. You can bring the soil up around the edge so it looks natural or use rocks.

      I think a wrap around shape would be very pretty. Just make sure you have bottom drains and TPRs to keep the flow of water going to the bottom drains.

      The pond needs to be much deeper. You're in a very cold area. You don't want the water to freeze in the winter. With the depth, the fish can go to the bottom during winter. During summer, they'll have enough depth to exercise their muscles to build body mass. Also, the more water volume you have, the more stable the water parameters.
      Sandy
      CKK, KHA

    7. #7
      CarolinaGirl is offline Inactivated
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      check out this thread: https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34636 One of our members does a lot of pond re-builds and this thread clearly shows what builds up under the gravel. The ONLY way that gravel can be used is in a very lightly stocked pond. And even then, the pond must be drained every year and the gravel must be completly cleaned. What happens if this gunk is allowed to build up is that hydrogen gas starts to form in pockets under the rocks. If a pocket of gas breaks loose (as it often does), you will come home to find a pond full of very dead fish. Also, fish that live in ponds where gravel or rocks are on the bottom have much more problems with ulcers and parasites. Please reconsider your decision. If you don't want a sterile look, stick some plants in there in containers. It will be very pretty, even with no rocks.

    8. #8
      vtextc is offline Junior Member
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      [QUOTE=kntry]Welcome to Koiphen.
      The rocks are a big no-no. They'll be covered in algae in a year or two so you won't see much of them either.

      You may want to raise the edge of the pond 6" to 1' to keep run off out of the pond. You can bring the soil up around the edge so it looks natural or use rocks.

      QUOTE]

      All great points; thank you! Curiosity gets the best of me however; if consensus is that rocks are bad, why is it that all of the landscapers/pond "experts" I've spoken to recommend rocks? I know that the Aquascape system calls for them, but even specialists that do not use Aquascape are still recommending rocks?

      A

    9. #9
      vtextc is offline Junior Member
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      [QUOTE=CarolinaGirl] Please reconsider your decision.

      CarolinaGirl,

      An interesting link. I'll certainly have to reconsider, and given that the absence of rocks might even save me money, it's certainly something worthwhile looking at.

      Thanks for your professional opinion!
      Asif

    10. #10
      CarolinaGirl is offline Inactivated
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      [QUOTE=vtextc]
      Quote Originally Posted by kntry
      Welcome to Koiphen.
      The rocks are a big no-no. They'll be covered in algae in a year or two so you won't see much of them either.

      You may want to raise the edge of the pond 6" to 1' to keep run off out of the pond. You can bring the soil up around the edge so it looks natural or use rocks.

      QUOTE]

      All great points; thank you! Curiosity gets the best of me however; if consensus is that rocks are bad, why is it that all of the landscapers/pond "experts" I've spoken to recommend rocks? I know that the Aquascape system calls for them, but even specialists that do not use Aquascape are still recommending rocks?

      A
      because they build watergardens that happen to have koi in them, not koi ponds. Most of them are uneducated about what a koi needs to be healthy. and a HUGE part of their business is pond cleaning, which must be done yearly in a pond with rocks and no bottom drains. You will never need to get into a properly designed koi pond for cleaning. Because of it's design, it keeps it's self clean. You only have to clean the filters.

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    11. #11
      vtextc is offline Junior Member
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      CarolinaGirl,

      With a little more research aided by your earlier posts, I can see why bottom drains are a good buy from the outset. They aren't as expensive as I first envisioned, and worth the coupla hundred bucks. Its something you can't do afterwards.

      Now if I can only battle with the rock issue

      Asif

    12. #12
      CarolinaGirl is offline Inactivated
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      If you REALLY want rocks, some people have used flat flagstones that are cemented into place. Then put some mortor between them and you have a smooth, slick stone bottom with no place for gunk to accumulate. Sort of like a flagstone patio on the bottom of the pond. You can still use bottom drains with the smooth flagstone bottom.

    13. #13
      Koidaddy's Avatar
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      Welcome Asif!

      Glad to see another Canadian boy @ Koiphen. Word of warning - watch out for the ladies here... they're constantly up to no good!!

      Chris (koidaddy)
      :farmerjoh

    14. #14
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      Mucking out verses proper pond filtration

      Hello & welcome, I suspect you have never had to muck out a pond before. If not thats great your a lucky guy. I have done it twice on my 250 gal pond & once on a 1000 gal pond. It is a gross experience. It stinks, theres strange little critters crawling around in the muck, multi colored muck red stains etc indicating severe anerobic conditions (poison). It was a very uncomfortable position to be in i was nervous that that my own health could be affected, what fish? My pond had rock in bottom the other had none, niether had a bottom drain to remove the muck. A friend of mine has a 750 gal AS type pond with a skimmer & bio falls. Filter pads are the only mech. & they clog weekly. The bottom of pond is full of muck. She is frustrated to no end because she does not want to go through the hassle of mucking it out. Its a major process because the pond has to be drained, the fish caught & removed to temporary holding, & remove all the plants. Now time becomes a factor the plants will only last a couple of days & the fish that depends on temp holding conditions. When i mucked out the 1000 gal i hired 2 laborers we started saturday morning & finished sunday afternoon, fish & plants back in pond. I was beat, the laborers didnt understand the objective i constantly had to lead them around by hand, frustration That was my last muck out & i will never do that again. I am currently building a 2500 gal watergarden w/ goldfish pond using koi style filtration. Bottom drain, skimmer, settlement chamber, mech, & aerated bio. I call it koi style but really to me its the proper way to filter any pond, that is if you want to enjoy the pond. It takes alot of work, more than i realized, but from what ive read & seen here on Koiphen I think its worth it. How hard & how long does it take to flip some valves & discharge the waste ?
      John :palmtree2
      " always the hard way "

    15. #15
      vipldy's Avatar
      vipldy is offline The Fish Whisperer
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      Welcome to Koiphen Soon you will not being doing anything but sitting on here talking to everyone and learing a ton This place is a magnet and you will love it

      Oh and by the way we are the nicest ladies you have ever met


      Marie
      Marie

      Have You Hugged Your Koi Today Ruby's Keeper

    16. #16
      vtextc is offline Junior Member
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      Alright all you lovely ladies

      Here's another poser for you all:

      Is it possible to have a bottom drain work properly with a rock-substrate?

      Asif
      PS-Koidaddy...where do you hail from?

    17. #17
      Dwight is offline Senior Member
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      No

    18. #18
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      NO
      think about it. some of the best ponds have TPR's or are slanted so that the pooh and averything else naturally goes down the drain. Also even the action of a koi swimming by can coax the pooh to the drain. Now if rock are on the bottom do you think it is going to do the same?
      Besides, rocks are heavy and the stuff in a pond gets very yucky if left there. You may be into playing with pooh.........I didn't mind it the first few times but I only had to clean out a barrel. I'm not doing that anymore.... I'd rather enjoy my fish

    19. #19
      vtextc is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Floyd
      No

      Duly noted. Ruth...thanks for the explanation.

      Asif

    20. #20
      CarolinaGirl is offline Inactivated
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      Quote Originally Posted by vtextc
      Alright all you lovely ladies

      Here's another poser for you all:

      Is it possible to have a bottom drain work properly with a rock-substrate?

      Asif
      PS-Koidaddy...where do you hail from?
      yes...but only if you do it with smooth flagstones mortored in. And even then, it won't be perfect. Not bad though! Make sure you slope the floor slightly to the drain. this is one of our member's ponds.
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