Butterflies Over in the Land of the Knights???

[koiingaround]

After reading this:

"for the record logfins or butterflies are frowned on in the uk they are classed as a joke"

from this thread http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...hlight=knights (Page 6)

I started wanting to know why the "Land of the Knights" feel this way!

Personally, I like butterfly koi, maybe that is because I am a newbie, or maybe I just love the way they glide through the water with their beautiful long fins so effortlessly...

Hopefully anyone with knowledge of this butterfly koi dislike over there can explain if this statement is rumor or truth!

Thank you all input!!!

[JPR]

OK I'll go first this time Steve--

Longfin Indonesian carp are not a joke, They are not nishikigoi however. They are a hybrid of an Indonesian river carp and a nishikigoi. There are MANY other crosses of subspecies- Chinese carp and goldfish, Indonesian carp and big head carp, etc. This does not make them a joke and in many cases it is an advancement in aquaculture but they are definitely NOT nishikigoi! Where Indonesian longfin carp are a joke is when they are suggested to be a competitor of nishikigoi at a koi show. Why? because fins longer than 40 % of the body is a disqualification - automatic. Secondly no hybrids of goldfish and carp. Indonesian carp and koi , Nilem carp and koi, nobilis and koi are allowed in a nishikigoi show. On that level only , longfins would be a joke!
So enjoy your Indonesian longfins, create a show where they can be judged through glass like goldfish . That would be great! And sponsor an association that will judge, orandas, Telescope, broadfins, wakin, jinkin and longfin Indonesian carp as specimens that show color and extra special finnage. Make sense? JR

[koiingaround]

JR...I do not wish to be stupid here, but I sort of understand and then I don't really understand...

Koi or Nishikigoi (Japanese for "brocaded" carp) ~after years and years of breading the different coloration's of magio (carp) together to gain better colorations is where the Nishikigoi came from...and that the Water dragons that were bread in Japan were a cross of an Indonesian long~fin carp and Nishikigoi. And here in the use the Indonesian long~fin female and orgon male koi together to get the Butterfly Koi. (The previous tries to cross long~fin gold fish and koi produced sterile fish.)

So since Butterfly koi are 1/2 regular koi doesn't that qualify them as koi...I mean the original koi came from magio (Japanese for carp) to begin with.

Although I do agree that comparing a Nishikigoi and a Butterfly koi would be the same as comparing oranges and tangerines...

However I totally disagree with you saying that any long~fin carp should be grouped in a show with all the goldfish varieties! I mean a carp by any other name is still a carp, isn't it???

[Sarge]

Okay, JpR, first let me say that your answer to the question was very informative, as was koing's response.

The question I pose to you is how does one "know" if it is a "True Nishikigoi" vice, say "Indonesian carp and koi , Nilem carp and koi, nobilis and koi "?

Sarge

[koiingaround]

Good question Sarge!!!

Is there a way to tell the difference? Is this why some butterfly koi have smooth long~fins and other's have the ragged type long~fins???

[JPR]

The nishikigoi is a combination of wild carp, domesticated carp, feral carp and pure food carp- but they are all sub-races of one animal - the common carp ( Cyprinus carpio).
Grass carp for instance are (Ctenopharyngoden idella) look a little like a common carp but they are very different.
The Indonesia carp is (P. gonionotus), is an equally different animal.
‘ Now to casual fish keeper there doesn’t seem to be much a difference between wild goldfish, red carp, Idonesian longfins in red and other members of the family. But they are different animals. Maybe a zebra and an Arabian stallion are kinda the same shaped animal to the causal observer. But a horse person sees the difference instantly. You can cross horses with mules, zebras ( I guess) , donkeys etc. But they are getting away from the true horse, as we know it.
Make sense? JR

[Sarge]

Jr, thanks for sharing. What are some of the characteristics that one would look for on a standard koi to ensure that it was a nishikigoi?

[JPR]

Barbels for sure. Head and body shape. Shape of mouth, over all size. When the types get close, scale count, gill arch count and number of rays in the dorsal fin become needed.
Obviously high breed koi are a definite nishikigoi variety- kohaku, sanke, showa, utsuri, tancho, ginrin, goromo/goshiki, bekko, asagi/shusui, kawarimono, hikari muji, moyo and utsuri.
Finnage should be normal length and body should reflect one of the four body types known to nishikigoi. The skin texture of nishikigoi is also removed from wild skin in color and color distribution. Black koi have red, orange or white bellies. Solid blacks should be examined more carefully.
JR

[koiingaround]

JR...In butterfly koi...what are the best things to look for??? Is there a quality that shows better breeding in butterfly koi?

Is the difference between the long~smooth fins or the long~ragged fins show the breed difference??? Is one a more sought after breeding characteristic thank the other or is it just personal preference???

And is GinRin Yama Oragon Butterfly or a Asagi or Shusui Butterfly better than a butterfly is hard to categorize???





Thank you so much for your helpfulness and patience!

[JPR]

I think we are looking at strains with different fins? Origionally at the request of teh government, the Japanese only bred 5 varieties- asagi, hi utsuri, yamabuki, purachina and sanke. The Taiwanese and thailand tropical fish breeders 'went to town' from there.
The Indonesia carp cross in the early years created a black, yellow, doitsu, black and yellow and brown/gold form.
If you look closely at these fish at koi shows you will see two very distinct body types ( egg-like bodies and very long bodies) and many different styles of fins ( goldfish like flowing, overgrown koi type, long tattered look in both fins and barbels). I am not expert on sorting out their origins! But I see the same 'types' all over the country.
I have been looking for some photos I have that were published in the early nineties showing the first crosses coming out of Indonesia and Thailand. They all looked very much like the lower fish in your post. I'll keep looking--
JR

[schildkoi]

Koiing,
First step is to PLEASE stop calling Butterflies/Longfins as Koi! Its just like calling a goldfish a Koi!

Doesn't mean that I don't like them or that they aren't nice...just that they are NOT Koi.

Steve

[koiingaround]

Koiing,
First step is to PLEASE stop calling Butterflies/Longfins as Koi! Its just like calling a goldfish a Koi!

Doesn't mean that I don't like them or that they aren't nice...just that they are NOT Koi.

Steve

Sorry Steve ...But maybe you should consider writing all the breeders and sellers and tell them not to call them Butterfly KOI as well....because that is where I got it from! LOL!!! :p :p :

[schildkoi]

Well, I do not know one single Japanese Breeder, you know, the guys who invented Koi, who would EVER consider a longfin as a Koi. Calling a longfin a Koi is like GM naming a Ford (or vice versa). If everyone called a German Shepard a Poodle, does that make it a Poodle...no, its still a German Shepard.

I've been to many a pet shop where they have "coy", should we change the spelling just because some people spell it wrong?

Steve

[koiingaround]

Steve...I never said I knew any Japanese breeder...there are breeders that are in the US though and they are the ones that call them Butterfly Koi on their web sites.

A German Shepard and a Poodle are different breeds but they are both still a dog. And both recognized as such.

And Asagi, Chayoi, Shusui, Showa are all different breeds of koi and are recognized as such. The Butterfly, Dragon or Long~fin are a different breed of Koi.

I understand that it takes the AKC a long time to recognize a new breed of dog, but eventually they do! Maybe the AKCA or the British Koi~Keepers Society will one day recognize the Butterfly, Dragon or Long~fin as Koi. Who knows...one can only hope...

[Sarge]

Steve, just because the "Japanese" do not call them such, does not make them anything other than Butterfly or Longfin Koi. I am sure that Blueridge and other sites in the U.S. would love to hear your take on this, heck they might even change the names!

Let's see, hmmm (a take from you :D), the "Koi" were developed in Japan, utilizing what ? And the Butterfly "Koi" were developed.....

Now, they may not be as old of a cross pollenation, but that does not make them any less what they are referred to.

[Busy B]

So what are they then?....Butterfly Carp?.....Longfin Fish?

[Sarge]

This was something I found via the internet:

The Butterfly Koi breeding program originated in the United States in the early 1980's. At that time, Wyatt Lefever, the owner of the Blue Ridge Fish Hatchery in North Carolina, obtained some unusual long-finned hybrid Asian carp. He started a breeding program crossing them with metallic colored Koi resulting in "Butterfly Koi".

Butterfly (long-finned) Koi are not only beautiful with long flowing fins, but they are quite hardy and able to withstand colder temperatures better than many traditional Koi.

Are koi a form of "Hybrid Asian Carp" or not? I do believe they were initially raised for the purpose of FOOD So, if this is correct, then what makes them any more elite than a standard Koi? Just because "The Knights that say NI" (Stolen from Luke) say it is so, and they are not allowed in shows?

Come on now, I personally like the standard version, however, I do have Longfin, or Butterfly Koi, as do many people that keep koi. Bottomline, they neither are a PURE scecies, they are a hybrid.

[JPR]

OOO, Koiingaround, I can't go with that wish!
Do you think the nishikigoi show should allow your wakin to compete? Or the common domestic goldfish, or grass carp,or silver carp, of big head carp, or Thai carp or nilem carp or yellow indonesian carp?

To be specific, and hopefully to bring this all home-

we have varieties or groups(13) of nishikigoi ( within this we have breeds or types)
we have races or strains ( too many to count) of common carp
we have five or six sub-species of common carp
And there are many species of Cyprinids ( 100s) of which a dozen are bred in captivity and half of those go by the catch all name- 'carp'
So if we were technical we could call longfins- longfin carp. After all what does the word koi mean? A take off on goi or carp but used formally only with color carp as in--nishiki goi. Nishiki is meant to conjure up images of a colorful Japanese fabric woven from silk yarns. This material is known for its varied colors and high value.

The only limit to hybridization among these cyprinid CARPS is down to their chromosome count. Some can't bred at all and create hybrids. Some can breed but the offspring are sterile and some can actually create a new viable hybrid.

From a practical standpoint, koi are judged as living art to be appreciated from above. The most important fins being the pecs and tail. The body of nishikigoi is everything. It is the canvas that pattern is mounted on. No such appreciation possibilities exist with longfins. Additionally, the loss of focus on the finnage is missing the ENTIRE point of longfins?

Nope, longfin carp will never compete directly with their cousins the Nishikigoi, just like orandas won't and your wakin won't- absolute apples and oranges.
I'm all for longfins in shows- glass tanks and side views so we can all admire their finnage. JR

[Busy B]

What we really want to know JR is what are you going to do with FEO?

Hey I just hit 100 posts!....Really didn't think I had BS'd that much...

[schildkoi]

One set is dogs, one set are carp. Longfins are as close to Koi as goldsfish are.


Folks, this isn't about who wants to call something what they will, its all about genetics.....no matter what you or an American Breeder (for marketing reasons) want to call them....genetically speaking longfin are not Koi, plain and simple.

Cigarettes do not cause health issues either...just ask the person who sells them.....oh, they finally admitted that though, didn't they?

Steve