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    Thread: First time Redoing my pond...Need Help!!!

    1. #1
      "B" is offline Senior Member
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      First time Redoing my pond...

      And,
      I only want to redo my pond once!

      So the more feed back I get the better!!!

      I recently pulled my liner up, and I'm just about ready for the backhoe.
      Time to begin finalizing my concept.

      Here's the pond I had (It was about 1000 gallons)


      This sketch shows some of what I want to do. I will increase the pond size to 18' x 8", and about 5' in depth. Of, course I will be adding a bottom drain (4"), this will go staight to the Vortex (or maybe the skimmer box) dunno...

      I will then add an additional pond up at the first waterfall. It will be about 12' x 4', and 3' deep. This pond will have a 2" bottom drain for clean-out only.
      I will put my fiberglass vortex at the left edge where the pond meets the deck, and It will have a box built around it. The majority of the plumbing will be run thru the bench/ retaining wall(the seat will hinge open for accesibility). What it does not include is the skimmer box set-up. That is one of my questions. I don't know if I should run it separate from my filtration system, or tie the 4" bottom drain into the skimmer box, and have it all incorporated into the filtration system. The first way would require two pumps (the skimmer's main function would be circulation), whereas the other will only need one pump.


      Here's what I want to do with my decking. It's a little hard to see from the pics, but my landscaping does not allow me to install my filtration at ground level. Therefore, I'll put most of my filtration up behind my waterfall.
      I will raise the pond 18" to 24" above ground level. This will allow me to add a vortex, and still run a drain line. I'll build a "decking box" to cover the vortex. It'll hinge open for easy access. The retaining wall/bench will also hinge open to revel the plumbing & waterpump.
      Last edited by "B"; 02-01-2006 at 10:23 PM.

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    2. #2
      gander's Avatar
      gander is offline Supporting Member ~ WWKC BOD ~ 2018 KPOTY
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      That was a very nice looking pond. I dont know anything all about helping you but I just wanted to tell yoou your first pond was very nice looking.

    3. #3
      kntry's Avatar
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      The skimmer should not be connected to the bottom drains.

      While you're redoing everything, make the upper bottom drain 4". It's not that much more in expense and it will make a huge difference. Hook it into your system so it will clean itself.

      The 1/2" drain line from your vortex isn't nearly large enough. It will get stopped up in a hurry. Use at least 2".

      I'm sure others will have more and better ideas but these are the changes I would make.

      It looks like you're on the right track.
      Sandy
      CKK, KHA

    4. #4
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      I agree with making the bottom drain in the top 4in. also. If you did you could also possibly have a built in quartine pond if you did it right. ( Since it would be closeby you would have to incorporate some type of barrier). IF you have a seperate q-tank then you may not want to do this but if you don't, now is the time to think about it.
      And no, you do not want to use 1/2 in. cleanout drains. Our settlement chamber has 1 1/4 cleanouts so we plumbed it with 1 1.4 pipe. BIG MISTAKE! I wish we would have done everything in 4in. Waiting for it to drain is a pain. The 1 1/4 outlet would restrict it but it wouldn't be as bad if the pipe were bigger. If we ever redo this system, that part of it WILL be changed :mad: .

    5. #5
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      birdman is offline DIY Savant
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      Hey B, man I hate to see that pond go. That is really beautiful. But like you I know the new changes will be much better for you and your fish. Good luck with your project. it's going to be great. Just give us lots of pictures.

    6. #6
      "B" is offline Senior Member
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      Sorry guys, messed up with my diagram, the drain for my vortex will be 2", not 1/2. OOOPS!

    7. #7
      "B" is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by kntry
      The skimmer should not be connected to the bottom drains.

      While you're redoing everything, make the upper bottom drain 4". It's not that much more in expense and it will make a huge difference. Hook it into your system so it will clean itself.

      I can add a 2" bottom drain for about $10... vs. $100 for a 4" bottom drain, hmmm?
      Also, the smaller pond is higher up than the big pond... I don't think it can be tied into the system... (I am a noobie, so enlighten me!!!!)
      I just want a drian on the higher level pond, so I can eaisly clean it out.

      Everyone,
      what is the opinion and why do I not want my skimmer tied into my bottom drain????

      :mad:

    8. #8
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      B ,
      What type of soil do you have ? Location / climaate ? Have you commited yourself to using liner again ? Just a thought but if you have the right conditiond , concrete isn't that hard and is VERY permanent. It is also more flexable than liner as it can be shaped as you want without worrying about stuff like folds of bulkheads. Man that was a pretty watergarden but if you want to keep koi you're on the right track. I did the same thing last summer and am extremely happy with the results. Look at my thread if you have time.
      Dwight
      Last edited by Dwight; 11-08-2005 at 07:10 PM.

    9. #9
      "B" is offline Senior Member
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      post me a link!

    10. #10
      Dwight is offline Senior Member
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      Don't know how. Duhhhhhh Go back to the pond construction forum and find my name under a thread is all I can tell you.It's called " New stream for my pond "
      Dwight

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    11. #11
      Simi Koi's Avatar
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      If you have the skimmer and bottom drian line tie into each other then one will be favored over the other.

      I am actually thinking one bottom drain in the main pond won't be enough. Its 18 feet long and one bottom drain will never reach that far. Also I don't think you don't have enough mechanical filtration. Plenty of bio filtration with the two 55 gallon barrels and the bead filter. might I suggest having TWO vortex filters and each has its own bottom drain. If cost is an issue you can make them DIY. OR instead of two vortex filters, add a microscreen to the one you have.

      Just having a drain out in the upper pond is fine IMO, just make it easy to drain and do this frequently. Also, shape the bottom carefully so all the muck flows down into the drain. Maybe use a 3" bulk head as your drain to give you a larger pipe and prevent clogging. The other option is to give it is own filter and pump and have the water flow back into itself. This would be the best option as it would increase the amount of filtration on the pond. rigging a split level pond into one pump and filter would be VERY tricky.

    12. #12
      kntry's Avatar
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      I was going to say you would need 2 bottom drains but forgot to type it in.

      I'm thinking in terms of DIY as far as 4" not costing that much more. My pond is totally DIY. I didn't realized BD cost that much.

      Anyway, the larger the better. The pumps operate better, you get better waterflow for the same electric $$ and they won't get clogged like smaller diameter pipe.

      Just make sure you have a pump with enough output to move the water through the larger size pipe and filters. Otherwise, the pipe will basically become a settling chamber because the waterflow won't be sufficient to carry the crud through to your settling chamber.
      Last edited by kntry; 11-08-2005 at 11:05 PM.
      Sandy
      CKK, KHA

    13. #13
      Leekinneykoi's Avatar
      Leekinneykoi is offline Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Floyd
      Don't know how. Duhhhhhh Go back to the pond construction forum and find my name under a thread is all I can tell you.It's called " New stream for my pond "
      Dwight
      Here you go friend , you will learn. https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29792


      Sorry "B" got carried away I also call myself a DUHHHH head at times. Your pond was beautiful , and you will find all the help you need here for a koi pond.
      Last edited by Leekinneykoi; 11-08-2005 at 09:08 PM.
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    14. #14
      Phil is offline Junior Member
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      Great looking plan. Consider the following, if your draining things like upper waterfall, 2" drain would work fine. But if u r cleaning them the larger the drain the better since it causes a flushing all at once not just draining. As for cost consider a bathroom toilet flange. Another observation is the slope of your pond to the single bottom drain. If 2 drains are not an option, increase the slope as much as possible. You want regrett it. You didn't mention the type of skimmer your are using. Some take a flow of 1000 gph to work right!!!! Regardless where u pipe the skimmer to, vortex or pump intake, place a pvc valve inline to regulate it. But all and all things are looking great. Good luck

    15. #15
      "B" is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Surfhead
      If you have the skimmer and bottom drian line tie into each other then one will be favored over the other.

      I am actually thinking one bottom drain in the main pond won't be enough. Its 18 feet long and one bottom drain will never reach that far. Also I don't think you don't have enough mechanical filtration. Plenty of bio filtration with the two 55 gallon barrels and the bead filter. might I suggest having TWO vortex filters and each has its own bottom drain. If cost is an issue you can make them DIY. OR instead of two vortex filters, add a microscreen to the one you have.

      Just having a drain out in the upper pond is fine IMO, just make it easy to drain and do this frequently. Also, shape the bottom carefully so all the muck flows down into the drain. Maybe use a 3" bulk head as your drain to give you a larger pipe and prevent clogging. The other option is to give it is own filter and pump and have the water flow back into itself. This would be the best option as it would increase the amount of filtration on the pond. rigging a split level pond into one pump and filter would be VERY tricky.

      Thankx for the feed back, keep it coming...

      I unfortunately am on a budget... I've spent over $200 building my own fiberglass Vortex, so I don't see building another one in the budget. I might decrease my lower pond to about 16' x 7'. I would like to go with 1, 4" BD if possible. Budget tight !


      I'm using a Savio skimmer box (the bigger one).
      I've seen a system that had the bottom drain and skimmer tied together. What I liked is, that he could cut-off the flow of the skimmer and flush out the BD, or cut off the BD and clean off the top of his pond with the skimmer. Especially, if I want to try to go with one BD. I think it would be nice to be able to restrict the skimmer to increase the BD for short periods of time, to flush out anything that might settle. This I think this would insure that my bottom is clean and that my 4" pipe dosen't let anything settle within the lines.

      One more question I have is in refrence to waterflow. I'm switching from my oldschool Lowe's sump pump, about 6,000 gallons/hr (electric bill eater -- almost 10 AMPS!!!) to a Sequence external pump. I would like close to 5,000 gallons/hr thru my waterfall, but I do not want too much flow thru my Vortex!!!. My Vortex is 36" in diameter and about 4' in height. What is the maximum flow rate I want thru this vortex (I am using 4" pipe)?

    16. #16
      bbriggs is offline Senior Member
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      I'd lean pretty strongly to 2 bottom drains as well; I'd look for a way to fit it in the budget if possible. Of all the places to skimp in a pond, the bd is probably the hardest to rectify. This forum tends to promote 4" bottom drains heavily, but there is a school of thought that two 3" drains might be preferable when total bd flow rate is in the 3-4,000 gph range. The velocity through two 3" pipes is the same as one 4" pipe, won't tend to settle solids out as much as two 4" pipes. Accumulation in either case is accomplished by drawing down the vortex/settling chamber with bd valve closed. Open the bd valve and you get mammoth flow that flushes pipes nicely. If you hook up one external pump to the bd(s) and a second one to the skimmer you will achieve the desired flow rate, have backup circulation should either circuit fail, and have good control of both circuits. I doubt you'll find much support even on other pond forums for connecting bd to skimmer, the flow rate tends to be too low from bd and up-regulating it is difficult. I'd avoid that if I could.

      This forum convinced me to go with aerated bottom drains. That was excellent advice, the air makes a huge difference in circulation of crud to the bd. I went with the air domes from Lim, but DIY aerated bottom drains can be constructed fairly cheaply and the Dolphin AV-50 pumps are super cheap yet they seem to work fine.

    17. #17
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      get your self a

      $5 3 or 5 gallon bucket
      $50 or $35 4" or 3" bulkhead
      $4 1" bulkhead
      $1 1" 90
      $1 1" slip to female adaptor
      $1 1" slip to male adaptor
      $20 to $10 9" to 5" diffuser disk
      $2 freesbie or some other bowl shape item for dome

      $64 4" diy bottom drain with air diffuser shope around and prolly get 2 of them for price of a brane name one.

    18. #18
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      "B",

      I made one of Garrett's DIY aerated BDs using materials that Boggen mentioned. It's in the Library under "spindrifter Clone" or some such.....

      Im not much help otherwise..... trying to build my own

    19. #19
      Simi Koi's Avatar
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      If your budget restricts you and you can't have a second vortex SC, then add a DIY microscreen to the one you have. Have both bottom drains feed into this unit. The microscreen is an excellent mechanical filter and its self cleaning.

      without proper mechanical filtration your bio filters become clogged with muck and become a real pain to keep clean. and every time you clean them you lose some if not all bacteria. Then you have ammonia spikes, algae blooms, etc. If you have a really good mechanical filter you will almost never have to clean your bio filter. The best thing you can do for yourself is to install effective low maintence mechanical filtration. You will spend your weekends enjoying your pond rather then cleaning it.

    20. #20
      "B" is offline Senior Member
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      Surfhead,

      Show me the way !!!
      A DIY Microscreen, now that sounds like something right up my alley.

      Can you give me a link or something???????????????????


      Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





      I think, I'll make a way to budget 2, 4" BD... Then I'll be able to flush one at time if needed.

      How many gallons per hour do I want with a 4, 000 gallon pond, 2, 4" BD's and ONE 36" Vortex?

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