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    Thread: Here's my question of the Guru Guys who breed and import

    1. #1
      Bill OTMS's Avatar
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      Here's my question of the Guru Guys who breed and import

      Which breeder (here or there) do you prefer and why?
      Truth Is Truth. You Can't Have Opinions About Truth.
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    2. #2
      koiingaround is offline Extra Special Memberness....our favorite
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      Good question Bill!!!
      I hope you get lots of reply's!!!


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    3. #3
      dcny is offline Senior Member
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      I don't know much about breeders, but I've heard a few mentioned over and over in relation to particular varieties.

      Momotaro - kohaku, sanke
      Hiroshima Sakai - kohaku
      Marudo - kohaku, showa
      Maruyama - kohaku, showa
      Omosako - shiro utsuri

    4. #4
      Bob Winkler's Avatar
      Bob Winkler is offline Tooth Carpenter, Wine Drinker, but always Koi Kichi
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      In No particular order, our favorites are:

      Kohaku - Isawa Sakai, Hiroshima Sakai; Dainichi; Nogami; Marudo; Kazuto; Yagenji & Torazo

      Sanke - Isawa Sakai; Yamamatsu; Shintaro; Torazo & Seitaro.

      Showa - Isa in Ojiya; Marudo; Dainichi, Isawa Sakai; Yagenji & Yamaguchi in Koide.

      Shiro Utsuri - Yagenji; Kazuto; Seki and Omosako.

      Hikarimuji - Izumiya & Choguro.

      Hikari Moyo- Aoki

      Shusui - Yamaju & Hosokai.

      Asagi - Hosokai & Marudo.

      Gin Rin - Hoshino in Teradomari; Marusada & Yagenji.

      Doitsu - Marusada & Maruju.

      Kawarimono - Seitaro & Yamaju.

      Koromo - Isawa Sakai & Maruju.

      Best Regards,

      Bob Winkler

    5. #5
      Lynda in Arkansas's Avatar
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      Bob, a quick question if you can answer. It seems that, in the past couple of years as I attempt to improve my "eye" I was always drawn to the Shiro Utsuri's of Seki. I had heard that he was completely wiped out in the earthquake and was not expected to resume breeding. Is that still the case? Thanks in advance for any information you may have.

    6. #6
      Bob Winkler's Avatar
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      Hi Lynda,

      Sorry, I do not know if that is the case with Seki. That would be a real shame if so. Much of the information I have received from one source or another has often been contradictory to another source. "This koi is 150 miles away in a mud pond now" from one source, and or "it can be shipped right now" from another.

      Hopefully someone will have more complete information than I, and can answer your question.
      Best Regards,

      Bob Winkler

    7. #7
      Bill OTMS's Avatar
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      Thanks for the excellent list, Bob, but why do you like these breeders?
      Truth Is Truth. You Can't Have Opinions About Truth.
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      It's the only thing that makes him him - Tony Curtis
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    8. #8
      schildkoi is offline Inactivated
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      Just a word of caution

      Never "buy a name" when it comes to a Koi. Even the best of the best also have crap Koi that they sell. If its for sale in the US as a Tosai, there is a reason it is for sale. Very few dealers will invest in large sums for a high quality Tosai to bring back to the US/UK to sell. Why pay a large sum for a Koi that might be male as an example. Thin beni, poor patterns, deformities all go into the mix.

      Even the lesser known breeders can have some great Koi as well. Buy the Koi, not the name. But the trick is to learn to know your Koi so you can make those educated decisions.

      Steve

    9. #9
      MCA is offline Senior Member
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      Steve,

      Joel B was our club's guest speaker yesterday. He quoted Sakai of Hiroshima as saying that a great koi is 10% genetics and 90% environment. So even if we do select a good fish, we need a home worthy of receiving them and growing them to their potential.


      Bob,
      Remember the lecture you got about growing out your fish when it won GC in Phoenix a couple of years ago? You have a duty to make the most of that fish!
      MCA
      Too much sanity may be madness and maddest of all is to see life as it is and not as it should be.



    10. #10
      Bob Winkler's Avatar
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      Bill,

      Hmm.. why do I like them?? Each one? The big picture is that my "list" is a combination of our personal experiences with the koi at a later date (how well they held up over the time I have been paying attention to "that"), what we have seen while at the breeders, notes/pictures we have taken, conversations with other Japan koi kichi "travelers" over the last 8 years of going there looking for koi, Peter Waddy's input, Brian Sousa's input, and more. Hard to put down quickly why for each one without a looong post.

      If I had to pick just ONE breeder with no "limit" of the variety, it would be Isawa Sakai. From top to bottom, he seems to have the most quality of the most varieties, especially in the varieties important to us. Gosanke. Having won the All Japan Show as many times as he has does not hurt at all. As Steve pointed out though, all breeders have alot of "tateshita", but Sakai seems to have the sheer volume of quality when we go there that always impresses. That and his hospitality, business "sense" and personality, always struck me "right". If that is the right way to say it. An example, he gave me a great deal as a replacement on a 3 year old kohaku when the one I bought and he had grown for me for a couple years was not developing the way he was happy with. Not a usual way that they do it.

      I agree with MCA about the environment being critical. I have seen alot of great koi ruined by improper knowledge or environment. Including by me. But I am hopefully learning from my mistakes. MCA, that Seitaro Kohaku that won Phoenix just passed away last month. I finally put her down. You may be aware that it jumped from my quarantine right after that show in Phoenix two years ago. Through the nets, weights, and all. It had severe facial damage from landing on the edge of a metal ladder after a 4 foot plus fall. Tough on a 31" koi. It left a 1 1/2" deep, 3" circular gash that I measured between it's eye and nose and alot of blood on the garage floor. The gash did not touch either eye or nose (or the big kuchibeni on the nose), so it gives an idea of how big it was. She was out of the water a good hour, or more, I estimate. I had to use dexamethasone to bring her back, and alot of tlc. I did surgery, and it did heal up very well, so that it was hard to notice, but she was never "right" after that. 3 bouts with Hikkui, breaching ad nauseum, and the resultant endless microscope and gill snips exams. Nada a parasite. But she was never really happy again. She ate well but stayed skinny, and often still sulked. Eventually, I think it just wore her down. Brain damage? that is one of my theories. A sad story.. but I have learned a few expensive lessons.
      Best Regards,

      Bob Winkler

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    11. #11
      Simi Koi's Avatar
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      What about US breeders? How about the Blue Ridge Hatchery? They claim credit for creating the butterfly koi here in the US.

      any good breeders on the West Coast I can go visit?

    12. #12
      MCA is offline Senior Member
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      Bob,


      I am so very sorry to hear of the lost of that fish. She was every inch a GC!
      MCA
      Too much sanity may be madness and maddest of all is to see life as it is and not as it should be.



    13. #13
      Bob Winkler's Avatar
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      Thnx for the Sympathy... that loss, and the one of another GC by Stomach Lymphoma in the last year has taken it's toll on me. But still I perservere

      Surfhead, I like some of the breeders in the US. Brady, and Brett are two names that come up often. But Jeff Thompson here in Colorado is pretty decent, and a newcomer to my awareness is Lake 11 and Rob McAllister in Oklahoma. They had some pretty darn good koi at the Tulsa AKCA seminar. We were all impressed. But none of those are in Calif. I think Kaz Takeda is now working for a place called Koi Ya, that may breed koi in California. I think that he is near LA, but I don't know what the quality is.
      Best Regards,

      Bob Winkler

    14. #14
      Simi Koi's Avatar
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      Your losses are tragic, I can't imagine losing a fish like that!

      thanks for the info. The west coast has really hard water and its highly chlorinated by the cities, maybe thats why we don't have too many breeders?

    15. #15
      Bob Winkler's Avatar
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      In the past, and may still be, there have been breeders in Calif. I think there was one in Hayward, or Barstow, Ca, that may now be out of business? It is a hard way to make a living. Especially as close to Japan as the importation is. But, you would think with the weather, it would be more common.
      Best Regards,

      Bob Winkler

    16. #16
      Kageno is offline Junior Member
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      Takemi Adachi has been breeding koi at "California Koi Farm" in Fallbrook, Southern California for nearly 3 decades. He breeds an excellent Shusui.
      http://www.tfb.com/~adachi/koifarm.htm

      Joel

    17. #17
      Ray Jordan is offline The Rocket
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      Bob,
      Sorry to hear about your koi. It is still very hard to lose one especially one that is extra special to you.

      I have been to Fallbrook Koi Farms and it is well worth a trip when you in S. Cal.
      My comments/opinions are mine alone and may or may not reflect the position of any organization or group to which I belong.

    18. #18
      Bill OTMS's Avatar
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      I'll reword the question. What aspects of the koi from a specific breeder impress you? Which breeder, in your opinion, knows how to breed a specific type of koi and WHY?

      I really am looking for specific so our members understand your thought process. Thanks.
      Truth Is Truth. You Can't Have Opinions About Truth.
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    19. #19
      Bob Winkler's Avatar
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      Hmm.. specifics huh? a couple to get started...Igarashi's Gosanke, especially Kohaku and Sanke, are often what I call "Flashy". Great skin, shiro, and beni. They shine. I have no other way to describe what you see when you walk into his (old due to earthquake ) greenhouse that they "kick your as*". He presents them well ( a whole other subject).

      Isawa Sakai has bigger ponds to hold them in, so they are not as visible "en masse". But when he brings them up, they have the same effect. And he has many more of them. Great beni, shiro, skin, and I like his showa sumi better. His koi get BIG. I like that and it fits my goals...He often has heavier beni, by that I mean more of it on his koi. Some like that, some dont, but I think it really shows whether the beni is actually good or not. To have more to look at. A common denominator is fukirin. Both breeders koi have it in spades.

      That's a start.
      Best Regards,

      Bob Winkler

    20. #20
      Bill OTMS's Avatar
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      Thanks, Bob. That's exactly what I was hoping for.

      Bill
      Truth Is Truth. You Can't Have Opinions About Truth.
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