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    Thread: Pump Flow Question

    1. #1
      Jonathan1982 is offline Senior Member
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      Pump Flow Question

      Hi All,

      I have a PerformancePro Artesian-2 3/4 HP High Flow pump that I have been using for the past 2+ years without any issues.

      As per their specification online: it is rated for a maximum 8,800 GPH @ 11' of head. Since I was using it with a Ultima-II 20,000 bead filer, before I purchased the pump I consulted with PerformancePro team and they recommended that I go with that particular pump so that I could properly backflush my bead filter. The pressure gauge in my bead filter always read between 8-9 PSI which equated to about 20 feet of head. Since then I have installed a 24" zakki (rated for 10K GPH max flow) for mechanical filtering before the bead filter which goes then to a shower.

      Five (5) days ago I have taken my bead filter off and installed four (4) S&G filters. Since, doing that my zakki is flowing more water (but it is not overflowing on the weir side) and I am assuming that is due to the low head of the S&G filters. Since my total head (after the pump) dropped from roughly 20 feet to approximately 8 feet, I was wondering does that mean that the pump is pushing more than the maximum of 8,800 GPH?

      The reason I post the question here is because, when I called Performance Pro they said that the max flow is 8,800 GPH and I would need to partially close the valves on the S&G inlets so the pump can flow more water. That doesnt make sense to me.

      Your inputs are welcome.

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    2. #2
      kevin32 is offline Inactivated
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan1982 View Post
      Hi All,

      I have a PerformancePro Artesian-2 3/4 HP High Flow pump that I have been using for the past 2+ years without any issues.

      As per their specification online: it is rated for a maximum 8,800 GPH @ 11' of head. Since I was using it with a Ultima-II 20,000 bead filer, before I purchased the pump I consulted with PerformancePro team and they recommended that I go with that particular pump so that I could properly backflush my bead filter. The pressure gauge in my bead filter always read between 8-9 PSI which equated to about 20 feet of head. Since then I have installed a 24" zakki (rated for 10K GPH max flow) for mechanical filtering before the bead filter which goes then to a shower.

      Five (5) days ago I have taken my bead filter off and installed four (4) S&G filters. Since, doing that my zakki is flowing more water (but it is not overflowing on the weir side) and I am assuming that is due to the low head of the S&G filters. Since my total head (after the pump) dropped from roughly 20 feet to approximately 8 feet, I was wondering does that mean that the pump is pushing more than the maximum of 8,800 GPH?

      The reason I post the question here is because, when I called Performance Pro they said that the max flow is 8,800 GPH and I would need to partially close the valves on the S&G inlets so the pump can flow more water. That doesnt make sense to me.

      Your inputs are welcome.
      Is this the zakki jr or the full size zakki? Each s&g should have no more than 2,000gph per barrel.

    3. #3
      BWG is offline Senior Member
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      You will also have suction loss on the intake side of pump that will decrease performance. If you are not fluidizing the sand in a barrel then flow should be OK. Since the barrels are in parallel head loss here will be minimal. Very possible you are near max capacity for the pump but mfgs are also notorious for over rating the output.

    4. #4
      Zac Penn is offline Supporting Member
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      How many suction pipes go to the Zakki Sieve?
      What is the size of those pipes?
      How long are those pipes?
      What is the elevation of the bottom of the Zakki Sieve compared to the pond water level?
      What sized pipe goes into and out of the pump?
      What size and how long are the pipes going into the S&G filters?
      What is the elevation of the top of the S&G filters?

      The 24" Zakki Sieve has a max flow rate of 9,000 GPH which is still too much flow for four S&G filters so you want to shoot for 8,000 GPH and you will be maxed on on those filters.
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    5. #5
      kevin32 is offline Inactivated
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      I assume since you got a used zakki jr you are using one on the bottom drains and Also one on the skimmer circuit or at least that was the plan I remembered.

    6. #6
      Grumpy is offline Senior Member
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      I am not sure, but I believe the pump curve for your pump is included below:

      Name:  Artesian2-High-Flow-Curve.jpg
Views: 273
Size:  168.5 KB

      If this is your pump curve, you were closer to 130 gpm (7800 gph) with the 20 feet of total head, and now nearer 146 gpm (8,800 gph) with 8 feet. Below 11 feet of head on this pump they stopped the pump curve, probably because lack of backpressure makes the flow out of the pump less efficient. That is the reason they said you may get the maximum 8,800 gph by give the pump some backpressure.

    7. #7
      Jonathan1982 is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      How many suction pipes go to the Zakki Sieve?
      2 x 3" suction pipes
      What is the size of those pipes?
      3"
      How long are those pipes?
      One is approx. 25 feet another 15 feet
      What is the elevation of the bottom of the Zakki Sieve compared to the pond water level?
      2 feet
      What sized pipe goes into and out of the pump?
      In and out both is 2". On the outlet side it goes from 2" to 3" for manifold which feeds the 4 S&G with 2" inlets from the bottom
      What size and how long are the pipes going into the S&G filters?
      12 feet
      What is the elevation of the top of the S&G filters?
      Not sure from where? From pond water level elevation is 6'. From pump outlet approx. 3' from top of zakki 2.5'

      The 24" Zakki Sieve has a max flow rate of 9,000 GPH which is still too much flow for four S&G filters so you want to shoot for 8,000 GPH and you will be maxed on on those filters.
      So hypothetically if I were to run 10,000 GPH on that Zakki would the water go over the weir? Reason I ask is since the water level is below the weir by approx. 1.5" does that mean I am running less than 9000 gph?

    8. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
      I am not sure, but I believe the pump curve for your pump is included below:

      Name:  Artesian2-High-Flow-Curve.jpg
Views: 273
Size:  168.5 KB

      If this is your pump curve, you were closer to 130 gpm (7800 gph) with the 20 feet of total head, and now nearer 146 gpm (8,800 gph) with 8 feet. Below 11 feet of head on this pump they stopped the pump curve, probably because lack of backpressure makes the flow out of the pump less efficient. That is the reason they said you may get the maximum 8,800 gph by give the pump some backpressure.
      So the question is what happens if you run less than 11' of head? Less flow? More electricity consumption?

    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      I assume since you got a used zakki jr you are using one on the bottom drains and Also one on the skimmer circuit or at least that was the plan I remembered.
      The Zakki Jr. I haven't gotten around to installing yet. I am talking about the regular zakki.

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan1982 View Post
      The Zakki Jr. I haven't gotten around to installing yet. I am talking about the regular zakki.
      Ok so you are under the 2,000 per sand and gravel. Imo you need to put the zakki jr sieve after your skimmer line and run a shower after that

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    11. #11
      BWG is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan1982 View Post
      So the question is what happens if you run less than 11' of head? Less flow? More electricity consumption?
      Nothing in the manual other than "designed to operate anywhere on the flow curve". A guess is internal pockets of flow turbulence resulting in performance decrease. If the condition is serious your pump will let you know through noise. Interesting the manual doesn't cover this other than the flow curve statement.

      If you hear popping type noise (often intermittent) definately add a little backpressure and see if it goes away. If no noise probably no damage going on but performance might be impacted slightly.
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      Last edited by BWG; 12-13-2018 at 01:13 PM.

    12. #12
      Zac Penn is offline Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan1982 View Post
      So hypothetically if I were to run 10,000 GPH on that Zakki would the water go over the weir? Reason I ask is since the water level is below the weir by approx. 1.5" does that mean I am running less than 9000 gph?
      Based on your answers I would guesstimate a total dynamic head loss of 10' on your pump when everything is added up which based on the flow chart would be 8,880 GPH but who knows if that is correct.

      I have to admit that I am not educated on ALL THINGS S&G so I may be wrong here, but do we actually know if 2,000 GPH is the point at which the sand begins to fluidize in the filters, or is it just a random guess based on what a pump flow chart read? Did someone capture the water in a known volume container and average the results over multiple tests? Won't a certain gauge/rating/density/whatever you want to call it, of chicken grit fluidize at different flow rates based on its density?


      With three 3" inlet pipes I think you would be very close to, if not already overflowing the sidewalls of the sieve at 10k GPH. There are a few factors that go into the maximum flow rate of the sieve and really it varies based on the installation. On the 24" sieve the screen becomes way too splashy over 9,000 GPH which is why that is the max flow rate. On the 16" Zakki Sieve the screen is not the weak link but the framing of the sieve will allow water to jump over the sidewalls at 4500 GPH with a single 3" inlet. However like I said above if you have multiple inlets capable of slowing down the inlet water flow then the sidewalls will not be overwhelmed at the max flow rates and the screen itself becomes the limiting factor. A 16" Zakki Sieve with two 3" inlets can have around 5,000 GPH flowing through it and the water will not be jumping over the sidewalls but the screen starts to become too splashy and it will decompose the trapped waste faster than desired.
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    13. #13
      BWG is offline Senior Member
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      Due to the variabality constructing a DIY S&G out of plastic 55 gallon barrels perhaps 2000 GPH +- 25% is possible. I believe the flow numbers some have posted when measuring but it would be easy to alter the gravel and final grit layers and have different flow rates before the grit fluidized.

    14. #14
      Jonathan1982 is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      Due to the variabality constructing a DIY S&G out of plastic 55 gallon barrels perhaps 2000 GPH +- 25% is possible. I believe the flow numbers some have posted when measuring but it would be easy to alter the gravel and final grit layers and have different flow rates before the grit fluidized.
      The chicken grit within my S&G filters are not fluidizing. However I am seeing more air bubbles being pulled into my priming pot by pump. I have done some reading online last night and learned that if there is significant "turbulence" near the intake pipe of the suction side of the pump (in this case the zakki) "air bubbles" will be pulled into the priming pot by the pump. I am guessing this is being caused by the splashing of the water through the screen dropping at a high rate?

      I am not a expert in pump but I think it has something to do with the "suction head" and "discharge head".

    15. #15
      Jonathan1982 is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      Based on your answers I would guesstimate a total dynamic head loss of 10' on your pump when everything is added up which based on the flow chart would be 8,880 GPH but who knows if that is correct. I agree on the suction side of the pump I have head a head of about 8' to 9' (if i remember correctly it was mentioned that the zakki itself adds a head of about 1'). Now on the discharge side of things I maybe a head less than 8' (again, I have read somewhere that each S&G adds approximately 17" of head.
      I have to admit that I am not educated on ALL THINGS S&G so I may be wrong here, but do we actually know if 2,000 GPH is the point at which the sand begins to fluidize in the filters, or is it just a random guess based on what a pump flow chart read? Did someone capture the water in a known volume container and average the results over multiple tests? Won't a certain gauge/rating/density/whatever you want to call it, of chicken grit fluidize at different flow rates based on its density?


      With three 3" inlet pipes I think you would be very close to, if not already overflowing the sidewalls of the sieve at 10k GPH.
      I am running two (2) 3" suction pipes.

      There are a few factors that go into the maximum flow rate of the sieve and really it varies based on the installation. On the 24" sieve the screen becomes way too splashy over 9,000 GPH which is why that is the max flow rate.
      By "splashy" do you mean the water hitting the screen at a high rate?


      On the 16" Zakki Sieve the screen is not the weak link but the framing of the sieve will allow water to jump over the sidewalls at 4500 GPH with a single 3" inlet. However like I said above if you have multiple inlets capable of slowing down the inlet water flow then the sidewalls will not be overwhelmed at the max flow rates and the screen itself becomes the limiting factor. A 16" Zakki Sieve with two 3" inlets can have around 5,000 GPH flowing through it and the water will not be jumping over the sidewalls but the screen starts to become too splashy and it will decompose the trapped waste faster than desired.

    16. #16
      Zac Penn is offline Supporting Member
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      The suction side of the pump only has about 4-5' of head loss, and the pressure side has about the same which is where I got my 10' of total dynamic head loss from.

      Too splashy mean the water is splashing OFF the sieve screen when it makes contact and then jumps big water bubbles down onto the waste tray. Those big drops of water disturb the trapped waste and help break it down quicker. There will always be some splashing but you will know what I am talking about when you get to that flow rate

      The air inside the priming pot could be caused by a small air leak on the suction side of the plumbing as well as the normal dynamics that occur inside a vacuum container like the Zakki Sieve...
      Air Inside Sieve…
      There is ALWAYS going to be extra air inside the Zakki Sieve due to the oxygen level of the incoming water. Hopefully this will help to explain the vacuum dynamics inside the sieve…
      Even if there was a perfect seal on all pipes, pumps, and filters you will still end up seeing some air going into the pumps leaf basket. The reason for this is due to the incoming water releasing the dissolved air inside the Zakki Sieve. At atmospheric pressure (everywhere outside of the Zakki Sieve and pvc pipe) the pond water will have a certain amount of air dissolved into the water. When the incoming pond water is exposed to a negative/vacuum pressure inside the sieve, it is no longer able to hold onto that dissolved air so it is released inside the Zakki Sieve container. This is only a microscopic amount of air that is released but over time it starts to add up inside the filter, which will create a larger air bubble and lower the water level inside the sieve. This issue has been designed for by drilling a small hole in the top of the pump suction pipe inside the sieve. As the water pump sucks out of the bottom of the sieve it also creates a very small water vortex just above that hole. When the water level is high inside the sieve, the vortex can not extend all the way to the water surface, but as the air bubble grows inside the sieve the water level drops low enough so that the vortex can reach the surface of the water. Then, just like the water vortex in your bathtub, it will slowly suck out the extra air, that is being released by the incoming water. This creates a self regulating water level. The amount of air being released inside the filter is determined by two main variables. The dissolved oxygen level of your pond, and the vacuum pressure created inside the sieve. The greater those numbers are, the more air that is released, however it should not be enough air to overwhelm a water pump unless there is an actual air leak in the pipes/valves/etc or the flow through the water pump is too low. If the water flow is too low inside the water pump, then the water will not rush into the leaf basket with enough force to push the air bubbles into the pumps impeller. The air bubble will continue to grow inside the leaf basket until it gets big enough to get sucked into the impeller. At this point you would notice a reduction in water flow and extra noise from the pump.
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    17. #17
      Jonathan1982 is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      The suction side of the pump only has about 4-5' of head loss, and the pressure side has about the same which is where I got my 10' of total dynamic head loss from.

      Too splashy mean the water is splashing OFF the sieve screen when it makes contact and then jumps big water bubbles down onto the waste tray. Those big drops of water disturb the trapped waste and help break it down quicker. There will always be some splashing but you will know what I am talking about when you get to that flow rate

      The air inside the priming pot could be caused by a small air leak on the suction side of the plumbing as well as the normal dynamics that occur inside a vacuum container like the Zakki Sieve...
      Air Inside Sieve…
      There is ALWAYS going to be extra air inside the Zakki Sieve due to the oxygen level of the incoming water. Hopefully this will help to explain the vacuum dynamics inside the sieve…
      Even if there was a perfect seal on all pipes, pumps, and filters you will still end up seeing some air going into the pumps leaf basket. The reason for this is due to the incoming water releasing the dissolved air inside the Zakki Sieve. At atmospheric pressure (everywhere outside of the Zakki Sieve and pvc pipe) the pond water will have a certain amount of air dissolved into the water. When the incoming pond water is exposed to a negative/vacuum pressure inside the sieve, it is no longer able to hold onto that dissolved air so it is released inside the Zakki Sieve container. This is only a microscopic amount of air that is released but over time it starts to add up inside the filter, which will create a larger air bubble and lower the water level inside the sieve. This issue has been designed for by drilling a small hole in the top of the pump suction pipe inside the sieve. As the water pump sucks out of the bottom of the sieve it also creates a very small water vortex just above that hole. When the water level is high inside the sieve, the vortex can not extend all the way to the water surface, but as the air bubble grows inside the sieve the water level drops low enough so that the vortex can reach the surface of the water. Then, just like the water vortex in your bathtub, it will slowly suck out the extra air, that is being released by the incoming water. This creates a self regulating water level. The amount of air being released inside the filter is determined by two main variables. The dissolved oxygen level of your pond, and the vacuum pressure created inside the sieve. The greater those numbers are, the more air that is released, however it should not be enough air to overwhelm a water pump unless there is an actual air leak in the pipes/valves/etc or the flow through the water pump is too low. If the water flow is too low inside the water pump, then the water will not rush into the leaf basket with enough force to push the air bubbles into the pumps impeller. The air bubble will continue to grow inside the leaf basket until it gets big enough to get sucked into the impeller. At this point you would notice a reduction in water flow and extra noise from the pump.

      Well I know then "splashing" is not happening in my zakki. Now the main question remains - How much GPH is flowing since I am obviously operating the pump outside the manufacturer's "operation curve". Should I have to add back-pressure (by installing a valve) on the exit side to come within the curve to get more flow?

    18. #18
      Grumpy is offline Senior Member
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      In the original post you stated the problem clearly:
      "Since I was using it with a Ultima-II 20,000 bead filer, before I purchased the pump I consulted with PerformancePro team and they recommended that I go with that particular pump so that I could properly backflush my bead filter."

      You have eliminated the reason for choosing this particular pump. The backwashing required volume and pressure. Your pump is a good quality, high pressure, high volume, high horsepower pump, and I doubt the PerformancePro team would recommend it again with your current filter setup. A smaller lower wattage pump would fit your needs better now.

      If you want to save the money for a new pump I would recommend you throttle down the discharge some from your existing pump. If you can attach a restriction temporarily into your system, you can experiment to see how much actual restriction will solve the splashing your concerned about.

      To make the new filter system work together with the existing pump you probably need to get somewhere near that original 15-20 foot of total head pressure and get back to about 7-8000 gph to use the 4 sand & gravel barrels well.

    19. #19
      Zac Penn is offline Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan1982 View Post
      Well I know then "splashing" is not happening in my zakki. Now the main question remains - How much GPH is flowing since I am obviously operating the pump outside the manufacturer's "operation curve". Should I have to add back-pressure (by installing a valve) on the exit side to come within the curve to get more flow?
      I don't know exactly what PerfPro was talking about when they said try restricting the outlet of the pump to achieve more flow, because that just isn't going to happen. You will achieve a lower electrical consumption with more restriction but your flow rate will continue to drop as more back pressure is created on the pump.
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      What happens with a high head pump like his, without any backpressure there is a lot of air in the chamber from cavitation. Because of all the turbulence, the discharge flow is reduced. Some backpressure reduces the air and turbulence and the flow will increase. The low pressure pumps do not have this type of problem as much.

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