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    Thread: Bakki Lowering Nitrates?

    1. #21
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      One member used to say lava rock would clog. I didnt agree with many of his posts and dont see why it would clog. The downside is it is very heavy
      Some is light as feather rock and some is very heavy. Depends I guess when and were purchased. Really do not know why other than real lava has different densities made by nature. Some almost floats and others are very dense/heavy.

      All medias clog if not cleaned.
      Last edited by kdh; 12-12-2018 at 10:33 PM.

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    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post
      Some is light as feather rock and some is very heavy. Depends I guess when and were purchased. Really do not know why other than real lava has different densities made by nature. Some almost floats and others are very dense/heavy.

      All medias clog if not cleaned.
      I agree. But in general feather rock is lighter. I dont run a all feather rock shower also.

    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post
      Some is light as feather rock and some is very heavy. Depends I guess when and were purchased. Really do not know why other than real lava has different densities made by nature. Some almost floats and others are very dense/heavy.
      All medias clog if not cleaned.
      The less dense feather rock has more air spaces inside compared to more dense lava rock.

      The new RIO ceramic media comes in different density... I prefer the less dense, more open cell media.
      Last edited by ricshaw; 12-13-2018 at 12:18 PM.


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    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      One member used to say lava rock would clog. I didnt agree with many of his posts and dont see why it would clog. The downside is it is very heavy
      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post
      Some is light as feather rock and some is very heavy. Depends I guess when and were purchased. Really do not know why other than real lava has different densities made by nature. Some almost floats and others are very dense/heavy.

      All medias clog if not cleaned.
      I don't think medias clog. When there is no water coming out of a particular filter then the filter is clogged (doesn't happen really). Rather there is a increased in water retention in the filter and within the pores of the media when water is slowed. The pores of the media doesn't really clog either as long it's space is wet (which is always). When there is an increased water retention in a filter, there will be more denitrification. A filter can be overfed.
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    5. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      I don't think medias clog. When there is no water coming out of a particular filter then the filter is clogged (doesn't happen really). Rather there is a increased in water retention in the filter and within the pores of the media when water is slowed. The pores of the media doesn't really clog either as long it's space is wet (which is always). When there is an increased water retention in a filter, there will be more denitrification. A filter can be overfed.
      I disagree. The small pores in open cell media can clog from detritus and bio film. Water not flowing evenly through filter media creates pockets for denitrification.


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    6. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
      I disagree. The small pores in open cell media can clog from detritus and bio film. Water not flowing evenly through filter media creates pockets for denitrification.
      I think you might contradicting yourself here. You are saying "water not flowing" (ie what your refer to as clogged) in the pores of the media, be it a flow through pore or a dead-end pore, creates "pockets for denitrification," but, in order for denitrification to take place nitrates must be delivered to denitrifying bacteria. Nitrates cannot be delivered without water flow. If nitrates can be delivered and denitrification is taking place then there is water flow and the pores are not clogged, correct?

      Edit..

      Even in a 'clogged' "open cell media" which I referred to as through-and-though media, if the clogging material is wet, it is not considered clogged. This material, usually detritus, biofilm, or sludge etc. will still absorb water and it's nutrients (eg. dissolved organics, nitrates, sulphates, etc) for bioconversion.
      Last edited by KoiRun; 12-16-2018 at 03:05 PM. Reason: clarification
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    7. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      We are basically breaking apart these carbon and protein structures. I see my water bounce off my media mainly after feeding. To me this is breaking apart stuff and then the ceramic media inside provides a place to further reduce my nitrates
      Gasp! Is that what these new-fangled things are for? Well, I never! You must have missed one of my earlier posts where I said I had a DIY Bakki shower, unfortunately I was sold crap media that almost immediately started breaking apart, etc. etc., so I dismantled it. I must admit, your water IS crystal clear!

      Thanks for the mini chemistry lesson and the corresponding visual. I really needed a laugh. Did you take a good look at it?
      I know it wasn't intentional but I was LOL; maybe I just have a warped sense of humor. I'd be willing to bet that guy wasn't too happy though.

      "IS CARBON A GAS / PEOPLE ALSO SEARCHED FOR ( insert of Man's Photo)
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...30#post2698130

      Thank you for that link, kimini. I'm reading it carefully between working on another project here because after the first four pages I'm seriously wondering /considering talking to Zac about a custom build of a shower for my pond (and we just put all new equipment in~ DH is going to kill me!) I need vertical but somewhat narrow and small. Yours is amazing! (my DH is not like you!). I got why yours was horizontal but couldn't wait to see why such an odd configuration.. I'm following the discussion carefully re: pumps, head, etc. (Flow Friend Pump! - never heard of them and Amazing!). Of course I remember years ago CA's rolling black-outs trying to deal with the energy crisis. I just never kept up with the technology developed in answer to that - especially for ponds. Anyway, I'm sure I'll have questions, but for now thank you!

      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post
      No I have never tested for iron. But two of the koi I had were in the system for 28 years and a couple more in there 20's. Never had a problem unless I created it. My filtering set up with lava was very good and it looked like the day I put it in after 28 years. And as with (any media) it has to be taken care of properly. I imagine there are better media products out there but I have never used them. Mine worked just fine. And would wager that the majority of koi ponds in the United States are lave rock. Some people that have seen my system were surprised on just how nice the water and koi looked using lava rock. Because they kept hearing negative things about using it. A few on KP think it is a bad product. But used properly it works just fine. As my koi lived for a long time with the set up. Skin and colors stayed very nice. I no longer have a pond or koi.

      kdh, Thank you! As I said, I only thought to ask because "iron" was mentioned and I've had problems with heavy metals in my well water.
      As for folks using "Lava Rock", you are correct. I've been on this forum since 2004 and many, many discussions were had about people using it very happily and successfully. Not long ago someone was asking where to buy it. Years ago Feather Rock was hard to get and very expensive compared to lava rock. You are also correct in the lighter vs density (clog reference later in the thread). Although I didn't have a lava rock tower/filter, I did use some in my planters in lieu of soil with bare-root water plants and had to tie them in mesh bags first because some of the lava rock was becoming buoyant. If any clogging was involved perhaps they just dumped the bag in without rinsing everything thoroughly first. Sometimes there are smaller broken pieces in the bottom ... if those aren't put aside, I could see those as a source of a clog.
      You learned the old "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule of ponding.

      I'm sorry you don't have a pond any longer but I'm very glad you're still here to share your wisdom and experience. We can all benefit from that.


      Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
      The weird smell from a "few" showers some have told me about is a sulfur smell, which is an indication of anaerobic denitrification, which could explain the lowering of NitrAtes.
      Thanks, I'm sure that's what it was. But originally koinoober wrote:

      Quote Originally Posted by koinoober View Post
      BUT, there is a weird smell inside the filter housing that I've never smelled before...sort of a stove gas/gasoline type of smell. I'm not sure if this is the "off gassing" of ammonia or if it's because I added bottled bacteria(Tetra SS+).
      My concern was that the "Tetra-SS" bacteria had gone bad or was producing a particularly gaseous smell when combined with ammonia. I'd never heard of Tetra-SS bacteria. The only effective seeding bacteria I know of is the one by Keeton Industries, I've used that myself. So I suggested the experiment. It's what I would have done first to set my mind at ease and then move on to other causes.
      In my pond, any additive is the first suspect to check when things are "off" (aside from water parameters of course). But that's just me. Better safe than sorry.

      **********
      Since the discussion has come around again to Feather Rock, etc. - can anyone tell me what the current pricing is like and is it still hard to find?
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    8. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
      Gasp! Is that what these new-fangled things are for? Well, I never! You must have missed one of my earlier posts where I said I had a DIY Bakki shower, unfortunately I was sold crap media that almost immediately started breaking apart, etc. etc., so I dismantled it. I must admit, your water IS crystal clear!

      Thanks for the mini chemistry lesson and the corresponding visual. I really needed a laugh. Did you take a good look at it?
      I know it wasn't intentional but I was LOL; maybe I just have a warped sense of humor. I'd be willing to bet that guy wasn't too happy though.

      "IS CARBON A GAS / PEOPLE ALSO SEARCHED FOR ( insert of Man's Photo)
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...30#post2698130



      Thank you for that link, kimini. I'm reading it carefully between working on another project here because after the first four pages I'm seriously wondering /considering talking to Zac about a custom build of a shower for my pond (and we just put all new equipment in~ DH is going to kill me!) I need vertical but somewhat narrow and small. Yours is amazing! (my DH is not like you!). I got why yours was horizontal but couldn't wait to see why such an odd configuration.. I'm following the discussion carefully re: pumps, head, etc. (Flow Friend Pump! - never heard of them and Amazing!). Of course I remember years ago CA's rolling black-outs trying to deal with the energy crisis. I just never kept up with the technology developed in answer to that - especially for ponds. Anyway, I'm sure I'll have questions, but for now thank you!




      kdh, Thank you! As I said, I only thought to ask because "iron" was mentioned and I've had problems with heavy metals in my well water.
      As for folks using "Lava Rock", you are correct. I've been on this forum since 2004 and many, many discussions were had about people using it very happily and successfully. Not long ago someone was asking where to buy it. Years ago Feather Rock was hard to get and very expensive compared to lava rock. You are also correct in the lighter vs density (clog reference later in the thread). Although I didn't have a lava rock tower/filter, I did use some in my planters in lieu of soil with bare-root water plants and had to tie them in mesh bags first because some of the lava rock was becoming buoyant. If any clogging was involved perhaps they just dumped the bag in without rinsing everything thoroughly first. Sometimes there are smaller broken pieces in the bottom ... if those aren't put aside, I could see those as a source of a clog.
      You learned the old "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule of ponding.

      I'm sorry you don't have a pond any longer but I'm very glad you're still here to share your wisdom and experience. We can all benefit from that.




      Thanks, I'm sure that's what it was. But originally koinoober wrote:



      My concern was that the "Tetra-SS" bacteria had gone bad or was producing a particularly gaseous smell when combined with ammonia. I'd never heard of Tetra-SS bacteria. The only effective seeding bacteria I know of is the one by Keeton Industries, I've used that myself. So I suggested the experiment. It's what I would have done first to set my mind at ease and then move on to other causes.
      In my pond, any additive is the first suspect to check when things are "off" (aside from water parameters of course). But that's just me. Better safe than sorry.

      **********
      Since the discussion has come around again to Feather Rock, etc. - can anyone tell me what the current pricing is like and is it still hard to find?
      Lacking in both significantly.

    9. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
      Gasp! Is that what these new-fangled things are for? Well, I never! You must have missed one of my earlier posts where I said I had a DIY Bakki shower, unfortunately I was sold crap media that almost immediately started breaking apart, etc. etc., so I dismantled it. I must admit, your water IS crystal clear!

      Thanks for the mini chemistry lesson and the corresponding visual. I really needed a laugh. Did you take a good look at it?
      I know it wasn't intentional but I was LOL; maybe I just have a warped sense of humor. I'd be willing to bet that guy wasn't too happy though.

      "IS CARBON A GAS / PEOPLE ALSO SEARCHED FOR ( insert of Man's Photo)
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...30#post2698130



      Thank you for that link, kimini. I'm reading it carefully between working on another project here because after the first four pages I'm seriously wondering /considering talking to Zac about a custom build of a shower for my pond (and we just put all new equipment in~ DH is going to kill me!) I need vertical but somewhat narrow and small. Yours is amazing! (my DH is not like you!). I got why yours was horizontal but couldn't wait to see why such an odd configuration.. I'm following the discussion carefully re: pumps, head, etc. (Flow Friend Pump! - never heard of them and Amazing!). Of course I remember years ago CA's rolling black-outs trying to deal with the energy crisis. I just never kept up with the technology developed in answer to that - especially for ponds. Anyway, I'm sure I'll have questions, but for now thank you!




      kdh, Thank you! As I said, I only thought to ask because "iron" was mentioned and I've had problems with heavy metals in my well water.
      As for folks using "Lava Rock", you are correct. I've been on this forum since 2004 and many, many discussions were had about people using it very happily and successfully. Not long ago someone was asking where to buy it. Years ago Feather Rock was hard to get and very expensive compared to lava rock. You are also correct in the lighter vs density (clog reference later in the thread). Although I didn't have a lava rock tower/filter, I did use some in my planters in lieu of soil with bare-root water plants and had to tie them in mesh bags first because some of the lava rock was becoming buoyant. If any clogging was involved perhaps they just dumped the bag in without rinsing everything thoroughly first. Sometimes there are smaller broken pieces in the bottom ... if those aren't put aside, I could see those as a source of a clog.
      You learned the old "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule of ponding.

      I'm sorry you don't have a pond any longer but I'm very glad you're still here to share your wisdom and experience. We can all benefit from that.




      Thanks, I'm sure that's what it was. But originally koinoober wrote:



      My concern was that the "Tetra-SS" bacteria had gone bad or was producing a particularly gaseous smell when combined with ammonia. I'd never heard of Tetra-SS bacteria. The only effective seeding bacteria I know of is the one by Keeton Industries, I've used that myself. So I suggested the experiment. It's what I would have done first to set my mind at ease and then move on to other causes.
      In my pond, any additive is the first suspect to check when things are "off" (aside from water parameters of course). But that's just me. Better safe than sorry.

      **********
      Since the discussion has come around again to Feather Rock, etc. - can anyone tell me what the current pricing is like and is it still hard to find?
      Lol that guy is from messenger on Facebook lol. I forget to close it out when I screenshot. They arent answering the phone but I believe diablo landscaping is .42 a pound. It might have been as high as .57 a pound. I've picked up a bunch of it but mainly use the cheap Chinese ceramic media . The feather rock makes up the first half of my 1st shower bin. Then it is all ceramic media and the lithaqua is submerged in the last tier of shower. Also helps with fines removal and raise kh. I'm also using ro so the lithaqua should help with the kh a little. I'm sure my kh is no more than 3 drops and ph is 7.6 all day

    10. #30
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      Today's nitrates
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    11. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      Edit..

      Even in a 'clogged' "open cell media" which I referred to as through-and-though media, if the clogging material is wet, it is not considered clogged. This material, usually detritus, biofilm, or sludge etc. will still absorb water and it's nutrients (eg. dissolved organics, nitrates, sulphates, etc) for bioconversion.
      I am not an expert. It is my understanding that water does not have to flow through the media for biological filtration to occur. It has something to do with positive/negative charge. I remember when I first saw Waddy's (ERIC) submerged J-mat media with the open 'channels' through the media. I thought that he was crazy... because I was always fighting channeling.


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    12. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      Lol that guy is from messenger on Facebook lol. I forget to close it out when I screenshot. They arent answering the phone but I believe diablo landscaping is .42 a pound. It might have been as high as .57 a pound. I've picked up a bunch of it but mainly use the cheap Chinese ceramic media . The feather rock makes up the first half of my 1st shower bin. Then it is all ceramic media and the lithaqua is submerged in the last tier of shower. Also helps with fines removal and raise kh. I'm also using ro so the lithaqua should help with the kh a little. I'm sure my kh is no more than 3 drops and ph is 7.6 all day
      Not a bad price on Feather rock but I'll bet the shipping will still be the sinker. Where are you using the lithaqua? I have some in my holding tank. Have you ever figured out how "much" lithaqua (volume) it takes to = the level of kh in your pond? That's something I'd really love to know.
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    13. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
      Not a bad price on Feather rock but I'll bet the shipping will still be the sinker. Where are you using the lithaqua? I have some in my holding tank. Have you ever figured out how "much" lithaqua (volume) it takes to = the level of kh in your pond? That's something I'd really love to know.
      Box says 1 cubic foot per 1,000 gallons i believe. Not sure how much this will buffer the kh. I just know it doesnt hurt lol.

      Opps sorry. I'm using the lithaqua in bags in the last tier of my shower setup.
      Last edited by kevin32; 12-17-2018 at 10:12 PM.

    14. #34
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      It's interesting to see all your opinions!

      Now what if a bakki shower has no air flowing into it(through gaps or holes), will all the gas from the ammonia build up inside the filter or will it just fall down with the water and out the return?

      The smell is still coming from the bakki shower and I even smell it on my other filter, which also has a lot of new media.
      Again it's not sulfur-like but more of a stove gas/gasoline-like.

      Quote Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
      My concern was that the "Tetra-SS" bacteria had gone bad or was producing a particularly gaseous smell when combined with ammonia. I'd never heard of Tetra-SS bacteria.
      Tetra-SS is a bottled bacteria by Tetra, called "Safe Start Plus", and there's no way it was a "spoiled" bottle. It actually smells like almonds.

    15. #35
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      The water qualities has been very consistent ideal
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    16. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by koinoober View Post
      It's interesting to see all your opinions!

      Now what if a bakki shower has no air flowing into it(through gaps or holes), will all the gas from the ammonia build up inside the filter or will it just fall down with the water and out the return?

      The smell is still coming from the bakki shower and I even smell it on my other filter, which also has a lot of new media.
      Again it's not sulfur-like but more of a stove gas/gasoline-like.
      I've read a lot of different opinions on air exchange and showers, but in my experience it's impossible to not have
      some air exchange unless you've got it sealed in a container. My shower stack is fitted one on top of the other and it's
      never had any sort of smell. The water falling through the shower seems to pull air into it from the top and all the
      small gaps that happen between the individual boxes. Without holes or the large spaces between boxes, I don't get
      splashing from the water. And yet my water parameters remain good.

      --Steve



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    17. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by koinoober View Post
      I recently installed a bakki shower with the momotaro media in them.
      I've been reading a lot about bakki showers and the momo bhm claiming to lower nitrates but my understanding is that they don't actually lower the nitrates literally, but rather gasses off the source(ammonia) that eventually leads to nitrates. Is this correct?

      Are plants the only thing that will actually "eat" nitrates?

      What about bakki showers & tds levels?
      Hi again, koinoober, I know you're still having odor problems. Just wondering, is yours an actual stainless steel bakki shower and the Bacteria House Media?
      I thought if the containers were a DIY plastic that might be the answer to the mystery gas-like smell.
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    18. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
      Hi again, koinoober, I know you're still having odor problems. Just wondering, is yours an actual stainless steel bakki shower and the Bacteria House Media?
      I thought if the containers were a DIY plastic that might be the answer to the mystery gas-like smell.
      Indeed they are plastic totes, but they aren't producing the odor. It's only coming from the compartments with the new media in them.
      It seemed the odor has gone down when I checked yesterday but maybe my nose is getting stuffy in this weather...

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