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    Thread: Second Koi with Dropsy in 3 months- parasites?

    1. #1
      Ollieman is offline Member
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      Second Koi with Dropsy in 3 months- parasites?

      Hi all-

      I feel as though I am fighting an uphill battle here with constant issues (Ick this spring, poor source water, overstocked after unwanted spawn and now dropsy). I have poor source water (high Nitrite @ nearly 2.0 from the source) and additionally moderate Nitrate in my pond (40ish). My koi have been flashing on and off for over a month and I assumed it was in response to the water parameters. I have been using Prime/Safe to detoxify the nitrite until converted by filtration but they are still flashing. 2.5 months ago I lost one to dropsy and late last night I noticed a second with very pronounced dropsy (will be using clove oil today when I can catch her after work). I am keeping my pond heated over the winter and it's currently at 75 degrees.

      I am slightly concerned about parasites but do not have a scope and know of no one in the area that does. Is it worth doing a broad spectrum parasite treatment or should I assume that the water quality is causing the dropsy and flashing?

      Thank you all- you have been very helpful with previous issues.

    2. #2
      ademink's Avatar
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      Good morning. I'm sorry to hear about your issues!

      Can you provide the following numbers?
      KH
      pH
      Ammonia
      Nitrite (I'm assuming 2.0 but bound by Safe)

      Your flashing could be parasites...your flashing could also be related to swinging pH (thus the request for your KH number).

      If you don't have access to scope and believe that you do have parasites, you can do a shotgun treatment for parasites. I would recommend Proform-C/BSDT/Terminate for three days as instructed with Prazi/Fluke-M/Flubendazole added on the third day. Specific instructions can be given if you decide to go this route.

      As for the koi with dropsy, what is your goal with the clove oil sedation today?
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    3. #3
      ademink's Avatar
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      I see you are familiar w/ the dosing from an older thread:
      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...-BSDT-and-salt
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    4. #4
      ademink's Avatar
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      Also adding a link to this old thread:

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...e-and-flashing

      Ollieman, for future reference, it is helpful if you just add on to an existing thread if you have one in the Healthcare Forum. That helps us to know what the background is w/o you having to try to explain it all and us asking the same questions 100 times. lol Hope we can get these issues resolved with you! Are you still overstocked?
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    5. #5
      Ollieman is offline Member
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      I have a Seneye, ammonia and pH alert cards, and also use the liquid dropper to verify values.

      Ammonia- liquid test kit is barely .1 --Seneye measuring free ammonia is .007
      Nitrite- .5ish right now but bound by safe- source water is 2.0 but not doing large water changes- maybe 10-15% when Nitrate gets high and using triple dose of Prime/Safe
      pH- 7.1-7.3 but has been relatively steady on Seneye, alert card and liquid dropper. If it drops more than .2, I add small amounts of baking soda.
      KH is typically low- 60-70 but I didnt want to raise pH given the temp, slight ammonia and really the fact that the pH is the only thing that has remained steady

      I am definitely willing to do a shotgun treatment for parasites if warranted.
      The clove oil was for euthanasia purposes, not sedation. I haven't ever had luck bringing them back once they are as far gone as this one is.

    6. #6
      ademink's Avatar
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      Wow...that is some reaaaally low pH and KH.

      What is your source water pH?

      When you say "relatively steady"...what does that mean? How much of a change from PM to AM?

      If your ammonia is bound, you're fine to raise your pH.
      Andrea
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    7. #7
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      I moved almost all of the babies into an 800 gallon pool in my garage but am still overstocked. I rehomed a few and will be rehoming more of them this spring but cant do that sooner unless I find someone with a heated system as the temperatures are already too cold outside.

    8. #8
      ademink's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ollieman View Post
      I moved almost all of the babies into an 800 gallon pool in my garage but am still overstocked. I rehomed a few and will be rehoming more of them this spring but cant do that sooner unless I find someone with a heated system as the temperatures are already too cold outside.
      Understandable. You just need to "make do" now and get things wrangled in.

      I wouldn't sweat your nitrAtes too much. My source water runs high for nitrates also. The nitrites are obviously an issue but dose w/ Safe every 48 hours. I really think you need to get a handle on the low pH and KH. I look forward to seeing your AM/PM numbers for pH right now. Some of mine flash w/ a .2 difference in pH - some are just more sensitive to changes in water chemistry than others.

      I have more questions but I'll wait until you wade through the ones I already asked. lol
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    9. #9
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      Source water pH is 7.3ish

      Correction- I just re-checked my numbers and pH is around 7.35 in the morning and 7.48 is the highest swing it has gone in the last month. Lowest it has gone was 7.28 on the Seneye. Should I still raise it gradually?

    10. #10
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      I was misinformed by a local fish retailer about Nitrate being a huge issue so I was doing frequent larger water changes about 2 months ago and not understanding why it wasn't going down until I tested the source water and saw the 2.0 reading on Nitrites.

      Edited to add that I immediately stopped with the large water changes due to source Nitrite and am now doing 10-15% weekly.
      Last edited by Ollieman; 1 Week Ago at 10:13 AM. Reason: adding additional info

    11. #11
      ademink's Avatar
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      What is your KH?
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    12. #12
      ademink's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ollieman View Post
      The clove oil was for euthanasia purposes, not sedation. I haven't ever had luck bringing them back once they are as far gone as this one is.
      I've had many fish successfully pull out of dropsy with injections but it sounds like this one is advanced. Sorry for the loss.
      Andrea
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    13. #13
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      kh- 60-70 (occasionally lower down to 50 before baking soda addition)

    14. #14
      ademink's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ollieman View Post
      kh- 60-70 (occasionally lower down to 50 before baking soda addition)
      Do you have a drip kit? I'm curious what it is now, as opposed to historically.
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    15. #15
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      On Saturday we also set up an additional homemade upflow filter in a 100 gallon stock tank filled with Matala and bioballs to help out with the filtration- added in some seeded media from our existing filters as well so hoping that helps with the overstocking through the winter/spring.

    16. #16
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      I use the API test strips to check kh so it doesn't give me an exact number but looks like it falls around 60-70. I last checked that Sunday. I can order the drip kit and get it delivered today if thats an urgent thing to double check.

    17. #17
      ademink's Avatar
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      pH swing is a huge cause of flashing. I don't know what to tell you at this point. I don't use test strips for anything so would advise getting a kit for future reference for sure.

      If you think your pH is stable and isn't causing flashing, then I guess your only other option is to shotgun medications.

      Hoping someone w/ low pH knowledge can speak to how low you keep your pH. That is way lower than I would keep it. I personally would not let it fall below 7.5. 7.0 is the absolute floor for pH so you are running dangerously close to the line, IMHO.
      Andrea
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    18. #18
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      I will start checking it with the liquid kits again twice a day in addition to monitoring the Seneye readings and make sure there isn't a swing that the Seneye is misreading. I will also add in some baking soda over the next few days to get the pH and KH up but I do believe that although low, it has been stable.

      I will wait a few days and check all parameters twice daily to make sure there isn't anything else I am missing. I have a large window in the pond so am able to observe them closely and don't see any obvious issues, no red fins, ulcers, ick spots, obvious parasites that can be seen without a microscope.

      If all water parameters seem ok, what is the best course of parasite treatment in your experience?

    19. #19
      ademink's Avatar
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      The course you have taken previously that I mentioned above. Proform-C/BSDT/Terminate for three days as instructed with Prazi/Fluke-M/Flubendazole added on the third day. Specific instructions are in the thread I also pasted above where you previously did the protocol.

      That should cover pretty much everything.
      Andrea
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    20. #20
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      Perfect thank you. Im going to buy another liquid test kit to make sure it's not bad, will monitor all water parameters for a few days to make sure there arent any huge swings or something I am missing and then do the 3 day treatment.

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