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  • Results 1 to 16 of 16

    Thread: Spawning tub size?

    1. #1
      Arid's Avatar
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      Spawning tub size?

      Hey everyone, I havn't been around these parts for a while as I ive had quite a few failed spawns and its taking a toll on my desire to breed. In most part Ive decided to just enjoy my fish for a while.....
      With that being said I did match up a a couple of pairs this year but the eggs were not fertile. Ive decided that my spawning tub may be to small???
      What size spawning tub is everyone using? Has anyone else experienced several spawns from different fish that are all infertile? Does PH have an effect on the "hardness" of the egg?
      Im really grasping at straws here but Im kind of hoping someone will mention something that I havn't racked my brain over yet.
      Cheers
      Aaron

    2. #2
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      No help but just wanted to say we're glad to see you back Aaron!
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    3. #3
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      I used a small blow up kiddie pool on the warm side of my house once and got them to spawn. I recently used two 300 gallon tanks in different locations, the one on the warm side of the house spawned and the one in the cool shade did not. Skinny females with no males also drop their eggs on the warm side tank. At first, I was using the cool tank and went so far as to inject them with Ovaprim to induce spawning with no results. They spawned when I moved them to the warm tank.

      In your case, you saw them going at it and the water had foaming milt residual and eggs failed to hatch with proper water changes and dechlor water conditioner? Clorine is not good, where I live we don't have to use water conditioner. Also bacteria can break down the eggs before they hatch, some use malachite green to prevent fungus growth on eggs, I didn't on my recent spawn and the hatch rate was very low, only a few hundred. I used malachite green before with good results.

      If they don't spawn in 4 days, we should take them out. I don't feed my fish when I spawn them, so if I don't feed them for longer than 4 days the eggs may start to be reabsorbed. Eggs won't hatch if they start to get reabsorbed. The Ovaprim instructions says to take an egg sample with a small egg sampler and check to see if the eggs are ready or if they are being reabsorbed. I don't have a micro scope, so I didn't bother with that, but it did enlighten me on eggs being reabsorbed.
      Last edited by Roger; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:02 PM.

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      I have spawned koi in tubs as small as 150gals twice with good results but the koi were small 15 to 16", for the last two years I've been using a 350 gal Rubbermaid tank on all of those spawns my fry ratio has been relatively low 1200 to 1500 on the larger tank even thou the hatch rate has been way higher I know the low gallonage has been the culprit on the low numbers that why am in the process of designing a 2300 gal system that will serve as spawning tank and nursery, btw during the first 24 hrs after the spawn I run constant water from the spicket to flush out all the excess milt hope something helps.

    5. #5
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      Good to hear from you Aaron! Most of my koi the spawns have been in an 1800 gallon pond, but a couple have been in a tub filled to 350 gallons. I've never had a spawn where all of the eggs were infertile. The 3 closest to that were:

      (1) A spawn in the 1800 gallon pond in cool water, about 64 F (18 C), where the female only laid a few of her eggs and I only got about 500 fry.
      (2) I used to have an all girl pond where a couple of them laid their eggs which were of course all infertile. Technically, this was not a spawn, but it would be possible for someone to mis-identify a female as male and get all infertile eggs.
      (3) Once when using a 550 gph pump in the 350 gallon tub with inadequate spawning material, the circulatory flow was way too much. It piled the vast majority of the eggs up in one area. Between the fungus spreading, the lack of flow in that pile etc, there were less than 200 fry when there should have been several thousand. So that is at least one way fertility can be low in small tub.

      I typically keep the PH around 7.8 (or in the 7.6-8.0 range), but I have not researched whether PH may affect fertility or egg hardness.

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      Hi ICU2 and thanks for the in depth response Matt, Orlando and Roger.
      I’m thinking that my spawning tub may well be the culprit as it is only 150gal. I have had success with this tub in the past but it is probably on the small side.
      Do you guys remove the spawning material to hatch in another tub? I have been doing this with temperature matched water plenty of aeration and a trickle filter.
      I can only purchase a melachite green/formalin mix. Do you think the formalin would cause a problem for the developing eggs?
      I’ve got one more shot at a nice showa pair and would love to get a few fry to work with. I just can’t understand why I’m not getting anything at all. I’m stumped!

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      Quote Originally Posted by Arid View Post
      Hi ICU2 and thanks for the in depth response Matt, Orlando and Roger.
      I’m thinking that my spawning tub may well be the culprit as it is only 150gal. I have had success with this tub in the past but it is probably on the small side.
      Do you guys remove the spawning material to hatch in another tub? I have been doing this with temperature matched water plenty of aeration and a trickle filter.
      I can only purchase a melachite green/formalin mix. Do you think the formalin would cause a problem for the developing eggs?
      I’ve got one more shot at a nice showa pair and would love to get a few fry to work with. I just can’t understand why I’m not getting anything at all. I’m stumped!
      I don't remove the eggs or the spawning material from the tank and from what I understand malachite is supposed to be used only as a dip, I have never used it but I have a question for you how big are the koi you have spawned in that 150 gallon tub and how big are the ones your thinking on spawning in that same tank again.

    8. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arid View Post
      Do you guys remove the spawning material to hatch in another tub?
      I leave the spawning material in and hatch them in the same water. But since I spawn them in an 1800 gallon pond with a mature filter that always runs, I can easily get away with that and not have water quality issues. I don't know about trying that with a much smaller water volume or with only aeration and no filtration.

      Quote Originally Posted by Arid View Post
      I can only purchase a melachite green/formalin mix. Do you think the formalin would cause a problem for the developing eggs?
      I have no experience using it. I hope you can get some little showa coming along.

    9. #9
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      If you can run the water like Orlando, you won't need any chemicals. Question, when your fish spawned did you do any water changes? The ammonia levels will spike through the roof after they are done spawning and they also need good aeration. By the way, since you are having a hard time, don't use the malachite green/formalin mix unless you are 100% sure. You can separate some of the eggs in another tub and experiment with it since thousands of eggs in a 150 tub is kind of self defeating even with cycled filtration. I am raising about 300 or more fry in a 300 gal tank and it takes about two months to reach the culling stage. After one and a half months, they can consume live duck weed, and miniature floating pellets. The amount of poop they let out after each meal keeps me busy. I don't think I would do as well with a full spawn, so less is more in a small tank.
      Last edited by Roger; 3 Weeks Ago at 06:40 AM.

    10. #10
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      You should not use a formalin mix on the eggs. Malachite Green can be purchased here http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/N...9580.Item.html

    11. #11
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      Cheers Orlando
      The first koi I breed were approximately 40cm. My las two failed spawns were a pair of 55cm(22inch) and then a young pair of about 35cm (14inch).
      I have a 475 gallon kiddie pool that I will use for my last attempt. If the general consensus is that this is also to small I will purchase a 780gallon aquaculture tub.
      Last edited by Arid; 3 Weeks Ago at 08:48 AM.

    12. #12
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      Thanks FRK!
      Last edited by Arid; 3 Weeks Ago at 08:47 AM.

    13. #13
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      [QUOTE=Roger;2695371]If you can run the water like Orlando, you won't need any chemicals. Question, when your fish spawned did you do any water changes?

      Most definately. I manage the water quality with water changes, water ager and biological filtration (slow trickle from an external pond)
      I can usually tell that the spawn has failed within 8 hours of the eggs being released as they go white and the next day there is no "shine" what so ever.

    14. #14
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      Cheers Matt,
      I need some more water volume I reckon!

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      Quote Originally Posted by Arid View Post
      Cheers Orlando
      The first koi I breed were approximately 40cm. My las two failed spawns were a pair of 55cm(22inch) and then a young pair of about 35cm (14inch).
      I have a 475 gallon kiddie pool that I will use for my last attempt. If the general consensus is that this is also to small I will purchase a 780gallon aquaculture tub.
      Welcome back, I was first addressing your issues ok now that I have a better picture one of the things I've learned in controlled environments is that the larger amounts of eggs with multiple males will produce unbelievable amounts of ammonia there fore knocking down the number of fry that survive, I like the amount of water gallons wise on your post since it would work for one pair of koi, but here's the kicker it's not time to experiment any more you must select a male and a female that have produced for you in the past in order to complete this part of your research, this should give you a better picture of what's been going on with your koi spawns, cheers mate keep your chin up and stay focused on the results
      Ps: you must use some ammonia binder for the first 7 to 10 days after the spawn in order to control that monster, sponge filters are miracle workers but they must be seasoned...
      Last edited by Orlando; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:27 PM.

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      I have 5 spawning tanks pumbed into my main pond. My tanks are on the small side, at 100 gallons each. I have been succesful with this size tanks for over 5 years, so I know it can work. I try to time the spring cleanout with my expected spawning date. During cleanout, I place my selected breeders into these tank and refill the entire pond system with fresh well water. This change in water almost always induces spawning, so the pairs are only in these tanks for a couple of days. During the first 3 days after the eggs have been laid, I keep the pond water circulating through the breeding tanks. After day 3 I throttle back the flow to a trickle and add fine mesh to the outlets to keep the babies from getting sucked out of the tanks. This seems to work pretty consitently, and I've never had a fish injured in the process.

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