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  • Results 1 to 16 of 16

    Thread: Recommended crosses for 2019

    1. #1
      spkennyva is offline Junior Member
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      Recommended crosses for 2019

      Hi Everyone,

      I've had my pond for 8 years and over the past 5 years I've been breeding several of my koi, so I understand the basics of getting fish to spawn, and rearing the fry, but what is definitely a mystery to me is how to select parents to achieve the best possible crosses from my stock. My best crossings have been Kujaku x Kujaku, which give a fair percentage of Kujaku, but also some Platinum Ogon, Kin Matsuba, Hariwake, and other very nice fish. I've also crossed several others, including Asagi X Ai Goromo, and Ai Goromo X Sanke, as well as some others. This past spring, I invested in some pure Japanese stock, which represent a major improvement in my pond. I do this mostly as a personal interst, and not for economic gain, but I definitely want to produce the best possible from my stock.

      Here are my pre-2018 potential breeding stock list:

      Kujaku (male used several seasons - great fish in many respects - about 25 inches)
      Kujaku (female used several seasons - good fish but lots of orange to be a highly desirable Kujaku - about 25 inches)
      Ai Goromo (male used several seasons - good quality - 7 years old, but not huge, maybe 20 inches)
      Ai Goromo (female used several seasons - pond quailty fish - about 25 inches)
      Yamabuki Ogon ( 2 males one darker and one lighter - both nice about 20 and 25 inches)
      Hi Utsuri (4 males - only one is particularly nice that is 25 inches )
      Asagi (3 males - only 2 are decent. 2 sub 20 inches and 1 about 20 inches)

      Here are my 2018 additions potential breeding stock list:

      Goshiki (female, breeder: Kawakami- stunning fish, very "Kuro Goshiki" in colors and pattern about 14 to 15 inches)
      Kohaku (female, breeder:Dainichi - very nice about 20 inches)
      Asagi (male, breeder:Oya -very nice, about 16 inches)
      Platinum Ogon (female - very nice, about 10 inches. She may be too small for 2019)
      Ai Goromo (sex uncertain but likely female -stunning fish, about 16 inches)

      What I'm interested from you all is to look at my stock lists above and make some suggestions as to what might produce the best crosses. I appreciate the this is a tall order, but any general guidance would be appreciated. I'm open to any suggestions, but I'd like to make at least 3, possible 4 crossing in 2019.

      I definitely want breed the Goshiki, but I'm very puzzled as to which fish to pair her with. Also, I'm considering breeding the Kohaku with my older Ai Goromo from top list who has produced Kohaku previously in two seperate crossing. I generally do crossing with one male and one female, simply due to the diversity I have.

      Thanks in advance
      Last edited by spkennyva; 3 Weeks Ago at 10:11 AM.

    2. #2
      Matt24's Avatar
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      Hi and welcome to the forum. That's a very interesting puzzle you have there with lots of possibilities. Some pictures might help. You have not mentioned their relative sizes, which might be quite different since you got several last spring. As I am sure you know, you want them to be big enough to contribute, and you don't want a small female to get beat up by a much larger male.

      You've seen that your Kujaku pairing works, and probably your best male goromo with the new goromo (if female) would too. But I guess you are probably asking more about crossing different varieties together.

      The female kohaku with your best male hi utsuri might yield some showa, utsuri, and kohaku. [Just me, but I don't mind using 2 or 3 males if the female is big enough. So I might put the goromo in too.]

      I wonder how your goshiki female would work with either your male goromo and/or the best male asagi. I really don't know, but since they all have reticulation in the scale patterns, they might work.

      How did your Asagi x Ai Goromo crossing work out? Many good ones from that? And what types did you get? I have a male budo goromo and a female asagi, but I've never tried to cross them.

    3. #3
      Roger's Avatar
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      I think its best to pair same varieties or relatives, and spread out in breeding to different spawns. I had a bad experience with a brother and sister pair. There were a lot of freaks, more than usual.

      Perhaps crossing with a close relative may re-invigorate a line. Like crossing Kohaku with showa or Shiro Utsuri with Showa and keep only the black fry. They pair Shiro Utsuri with Shiro Utsuri to get unblemished Shiro Utsuri and Kohaku with Kohaku.

      Crossing Asagi with Kohaku created Goshiki and then it was refined into Ai Goromo with selective in breeding. Kujaku has a Gin Matsuba base with Kohaku red pattern, so they can be crossed with Kohaku or Gin Matsuba. Hariwake has a Platinum Ogon base with Kohaku red pattern, so they can be crossed with a Platinum Ogon or Kohaku. Yamabuki Ogon can be paired with a Platinum Ogon or Kigoi and keep only the shiny yellow fry. They probably crossed a Kigoi with an Ogon to develop the Yamabuki Ogon, but I not sure what type of Ogon they used.

      Logically, pairing depends on what traits you want to strengthen on your parent koi or pass on.
      Last edited by Roger; 2 Weeks Ago at 06:35 PM.

    4. #4
      spkennyva is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      Hi and welcome to the forum. That's a very interesting puzzle you have there with lots of possibilities. Some pictures might help. You have not mentioned their relative sizes, which might be quite different since you got several last spring. As I am sure you know, you want them to be big enough to contribute, and you don't want a small female to get beat up by a much larger male.
      First of all, thank you for the reply and the welcome to the forum. I've been reading here for many years, and just love the great information.

      I added some size information above. You raise a good point that pairing needs to be safe, and I've been factoring that into my pairing plans. Particularly the new Platinum Ogon. She is beautiful, but still small. She may need to be paired with a younger male, maybe one of the 2 year old males from the Kujaku x Kujaku pairing.

      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post


      The female kohaku with your best male hi utsuri might yield some showa, utsuri, and kohaku. [Just me, but I don't mind using 2 or 3 males if the female is big enough. So I might put the goromo in too.]
      Very interesting idea! Thank you.

      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      I wonder how your goshiki female would work with either your male goromo and/or the best male asagi. I really don't know, but since they all have reticulation in the scale patterns, they might work.
      My son had the same idea of crossing goshiki female with our best male asagi. He's going to be pleased with your suggestion!

      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      How did your Asagi x Ai Goromo crossing work out? Many good ones from that? And what types did you get? I have a male budo goromo and a female asagi, but I've never tried to cross them.
      In this crossing, I paired my 3 Asagi males with the female Ai Goromo. This was the first time I used multiple males. Overall, this was probably the best result of the 2018 season. I got a fair number of bland fish, but also got 7 to 10 nice ones. They are still small, so its hard for me to give a acurate type description. The largest is about 6 inches, which is good growth for my pond.

    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
      I think its best to pair same varieties or relatives, and spread out in breeding to different spawns. I had a bad experience with a brother and sister pair. There were a lot of freaks, more than usual.

      Perhaps crossing with a close relative may re-invigorate a line. Like crossing Kohaku with showa or Shiro Utsuri with Showa and keep only the black fry. They pair Shiro Utsuri with Shiro Utsuri to get unblemished Shiro Utsuri and Kohaku with Kohaku.

      Crossing Asagi with Kohaku created Goshiki and then it was refined into Ai Goromo with selective in breeding. Kujaku has a Gin Matsuba base with Kohaku red pattern, so they can be crossed with Kohaku. Hariwake has a Platinum Ogon base with Kohaku red pattern, so they can be crossed with a Platinum Ogon or Kohaku. Yamabuki Ogon can be paired with a Platinum Ogon and keep only the yellow fry. They probably crossed a Kigoi with an Ogon to develop the Yamabuki Ogon, but I not sure what type of Ogon they used.

      Logically, pairing depends on what traits you want to strengthen on your parent koi or pass on.
      Good information. Thank you Roger!

    6. #6
      ricshaw's Avatar
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      I do not spawn Koi as a hobby, I have friends that do, but not my interest.

      Over the years I have experienced several unplanned spawns. I have kept several of the fry to raise and the results were always disappointing.

      The last unplanned spawning was different.

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      What was different was the spawning was basically between two Koi. A female Kohaku and a male Soragoi.

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      These were some of the better tosai.

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      Last edited by ricshaw; 2 Weeks Ago at 02:09 PM.


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    7. #7
      Matt24's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
      ... the spawning was basically between two Koi. A female Kohaku and a male Soragoi. ...

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      Nice looking group Ricshaw. Besides the expected varieties, it looks like there are a couple of decent showa in there too. I am wondering how those came from a kohaku x soragoi cross. But I see you used the qualifier "basically" between two koi, which makes me wonder if there was a little showa or utsuri in the pond.

    8. #8
      ricshaw's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      Nice looking group Ricshaw. Besides the expected varieties, it looks like there are a couple of decent showa in there too. I am wondering how those came from a kohaku x soragoi cross. But I see you used the qualifier "basically" between two koi, which makes me wonder if there was a little showa or utsuri in the pond.
      Nope... only two Koi in a 1200 gallon pond. No decent Showas produced.

      Why so many different looking fry? It has been my experience that amateur breeding reverses years of selective breeding.

      I kept only one which turned out as what most would expect.

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    9. #9
      tamatamane's Avatar
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      Found this on Facebook. GoromoXAsagi The post stated the breeder is "Marushiku" so I'm guessing it was a mistake of either Maruchiku or Marushin.

      You have a lot of options for Kawarigoi(Oddballs) or unique one-offs if you add some Ginrin & Doitsu to your existing stock. Lots of possibilities when you mix metallics.
      Do you know the breeder of all your fish? Bloodline can make a big difference as well.

      Some of the famous oddball koi breeders like Aokiya will use about 3~5 males to a single female. Creates an infinite amount of sparkly tosai. Downside is that it's almost impossible to create the same looking fish because the father can't be determined lol

      Have you ever gotten Shusui from the Kujaku spawn?
      I once saw a single Asagi come out of Kohaku parents. That is some serious reverse engineering right there.
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    10. #10
      lukef's Avatar
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      take the best quality fish you got and let em flock spawn...
      It does so much more for you.... all your resources and timetable go into that spawn. Don't over do it... two females, three or for males.
      best quality...Period.
      Quit dicking around with the scrubs
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    11. #11
      spkennyva is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by tamatamane View Post
      Do you know the breeder of all your fish? Bloodline can make a big difference as well.
      Not all, but some. (Izumiya, Dainichi, Oya, Kawakami)

      Quote Originally Posted by tamatamane View Post

      Have you ever gotten Shusui from the Kujaku spawn?
      No, I have not gotten anything close to Shusui from my Kujaku.

    12. #12
      spkennyva is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by lukef View Post
      take the best quality fish you got and let em flock spawn...
      Sounds like you'd get a real mixed bag. All the reading and watching I've done seems to suggest mating "like kind" to "like kind". I've had pretty good luck doing that with my Kujaku. I'm looking for something that will have some measure of repeatibility. I know that there's always random outcomes, but it seems like the flock spawn is promoting randomness, right?

    13. #13
      spkennyva is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
      It has been my experience that amateur breeding reverses years of selective breeding.
      So, what exactly differentiates amateur breeding from professional breeding? I understand that selection needs to be rigorous, but couldn't an amateur spend the $$ needed to import high quality stock and then breed them? Wouldn't this cut down on decades of selection? Isn't that what Purdin Koi and others did? If this is not true, then what makes breeding koi so much different than other animals? I'm not trying to be argumentative, just wondering what is the basis of your comments. We're not starting from Wolves and trying to get poodles the first cross.


      Thanks

    14. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by spkennyva View Post

      No, I have not gotten anything close to Shusui from my Kujaku.
      I was just curious as the Kujaku is recorded as being created back in 1960 by Toshio Hirasawa who crossed Shusui with Kin Matsuba & Hariwake.

      Quote Originally Posted by spkennyva View Post
      So, what exactly differentiates amateur breeding from professional breeding? I understand that selection needs to be rigorous, but couldn't an amateur spend the $$ needed to import high quality stock and then breed them? Wouldn't this cut down on decades of selection? Isn't that what Purdin Koi and others did? If this is not true, then what makes breeding koi so much different than other animals? I'm not trying to be argumentative, just wondering what is the basis of your comments. We're not starting from Wolves and trying to get poodles the first cross.


      Thanks
      Koi don't breed true. As in you can get two really great looking parents and the offspring looking nothing like them. You have a better chance though, with metallics and/or solid colored varieties.
      And the selection process is a very delicate procedure that requires years of training. Breeders are looking for quality in these tiny baby fish. It would be great if none are culled, but it's just not possible when considering the space & food required to raise them properly. The first cull occurs at around day 3 from hatch date, and this process will go on for about 5 sessions until the fry are about 3 months old. The lucky chosen ones are then continued to grow on in the mud ponds over the summer until they are harvested in the Fall. The breeder will then sort through thousands of fry to inspect which he will keep for another year, and which will be let go in the Spring as "tosai"(technically ake-nisai). Depending on the breeders, the keepers will receive VIP treatment in heated tanks with lots of food to continue to grow on out during the winter. However there will be some that will be kicked out from the VIP room at the very last minute due to various reasons(being male, not growing properly, pattern going downhill) and these will be labeled and sold as "jumbo tosai".

      What ricsaw was probably mentioning is those rare cases of beginner's luck. I know a gentleman who had an unplanned spawn from Ginrin Yamabuki OgonxOchiba Shigure, and the only baby that survived is now a magnificent 30" Ginrin Kogane Ochiba. It's a very rare variety that I've only seen Marusei & Maruhiro produce.
      Last edited by tamatamane; 6 Days Ago at 05:00 AM.

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      Tamatamane,

      Thanks for the reply. I've seen it written before, and witnessed it first-hand that "koi don't breed true", so I totally believe this, but (I believe) crosses are done to maximize the probability that you'll get the desired outcome. Most of what I've seen online is that breeder DO mate the same x same, e.g., Kohaku x Kohaku with the hope that a high percentage of the offspring are Kohaku. It seems to me that if this likelihood wasn't achieved, then the cost of high-quality Koi would be WAY higher than it is now. My understanding, at least right now, is that certain crosses have better likelihoods of producing particular results, and this was the point of my original post.

    16. #16
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      I bred a brother and sister Kohaku pair from Hoshikin Koi Farm and there were a lot of freaks more than usual. Some of them had only one eye, some of them look like gold fish, a lot of them had fork tails, and crooked mouths, but basically over all there were red and white with no black mixes. I read online that Hoshikin Koi Farm spent a lot of effort to breed kohaku without shimi or black spots.

      I kept a normal looking male Kohaku, and bred it with an akame kigoi. There were far less deformities and the fry was more vigorous and less susceptible to disease. Furthermore, I kept a white female with red eyes and a Kohaku female from this spawn. The white female inherited the red eye and body shape from the akame kigoi, it had two tiny yellow dots on its body, but it recently disappeared. The red color on the female kohaku is a soft persimmon color, and it inherited the Hoshin body type. The fins were slightly yellowish, but it recently cleared up. I am tempted, but won't waste my time breeding it with another blood line Kohaku. I think it would need a few more spawns to isolate the yellow from the kigoi. However, kohaku bred from this kohaku/kigoi line will grow very big.
      Last edited by Roger; 1 Day Ago at 06:53 AM.

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