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    Thread: Please help me understand.

    1. #41
      szweier is offline Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by GoldieGirl View Post
      If the spray was toxic enough to kill all the fish and even the worms, I would be very concerned about my own health and that of my cats and dogs. This needs to be reported, somehow, and personally, I would be thoroughly hosing down my yard and structures, and soaking the lawn my pets walk on.
      While part of me wonders about the pesticides Iím not so sure theyíre the culprit here. That being said. When I went out yesterday to look at my pond I had a cat sneak into my yard through an opening in my fence behind the pond. Aside from the chance that the cat is responsible for the one fish I still havenít found. Is there anything that comes to mind from anyone that a cat couldíve introduced that wouldíve done this? Reaching in with kitty litter on its paws? Į\_(ツ)_/Į.


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    2. #42
      icu2's Avatar
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      I've had multiple cats plus several feral cats around since I've had koi and none have ever
      bothered or effected the ponds. I don't think getting even scented kitty litter would do it either.
      Clay litter is sometimes used to pot pond plants.
      My chagoi and kitty have both passed away but when they were here they both knew who was boss.

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    3. #43
      szweier is offline Member
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      Please help me understand.

      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I've had multiple cats plus several feral cats around since I've had koi and none have ever
      bothered or effected the ponds. I don't think getting even scented kitty litter would do it either.
      Clay litter is sometimes used to pot pond plants.
      My chagoi and kitty have both passed away but when they were here they both knew who was boss. :

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      Wow thatís an impressive fish. Sorry for your loss.


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    4. #44
      DarkStar is online now Supporting Member
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      icu2 - I love your photo of the Chagoi and the cat. The Chagoi looks just like the one I have now and the Cat looks like a Sweetheart named Rio that we also lost. Rio was fascinated by the fish but never tried catching one. She'd sit on the ledge with the tip of her tail dangling in the water and several times pulled it out just in time when the Chagoi came over for a "snack". It seemed like a game they played.

      Quote Originally Posted by szweier View Post
      I actually had one additional question here. I assume you have a pond with koi in the same yard? If the well tests positive for pesticides were the fish killed when you got that reading?


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      It's a spring-fed mud pond, almost 1/4 acre and more than 8 ft. deep; it was here when we purchased the property and also has game fish, sunnies, blue gills and bass, so not a lot of Koi.
      To answer your question, I didn't notice any missing Koi, but I do see a dead fish on the bank from time to time and go to investigate.

      In my area these can be attributed to causes ranging from bears, raccoons, bobcats, herons, kingfishers who grab a fish, find that it's too big to fly off with and drop it, one huge snapping turtle, etc.. And unless there were several dead fish at one time there would be no reason for me to "immediately" test for pesticides, so my well testing did not always correspond to times when a dead fish or two were found.
      Even if several fish were dead it's unlikely I would know unless I was looking for and missing my koi or the timing was just right because at night my little "Critter Coroners" (opossums) come and collect the bodies of anything dead (like fish, dead birds that had the misfortune to hit the window and died, etc.).

      Also the spring and the well are in different sections of the property. If the contaminant came from overhead it would have a much better chance of affecting / being absorbed into both than ground source water. The topography is different. By the time we got test results back from the well, rains, the spring itself would have already flushed a good bit of it out of the pond (again, assuming they subjected to the same source of contamination). If the contaminant was carried by ground water (surface or submerged) that presents a whole other list of factors. Do you really want me to continue discussing this? Probably not. (I can tell you all about the surrounding properties, the run-offs, the areas on the property that consistently flood, etc.)

      I'm sorry if that's not the answer you wanted to hear, but it's the only one I have.

      I understand that you want a clear concise 'normal' cause for your koi dying so you can search for it in your pond and fix it, with a certainty that it won't happen again.

      I'm out of ideas, and I should have quit while I was behind.

      I sincerely hope you figure it out!
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    5. #45
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      Quote Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
      icu2 - I love your photo of the Chagoi and the cat. The Chagoi looks just like the one I have now and the Cat looks like a Sweetheart named Rio that we also lost. Rio was fascinated by the fish but never tried catching one. She'd sit on the ledge with the tip of her tail dangling in the water and several times pulled it out just in time when the Chagoi came over for a "snack". It seemed like a game they played.
      Thanks... they're buried next to each other to keep them both company forever.
      --Steve
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    6. #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Thanks... they're buried next to each other to keep them both company forever.
      How beautiful! It gave me chills.
      Find Something You Would Die For And Live for It.



    7. #47
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      Iím guessing nobody noticed anything obvious about the photos of the fish above that might explain something. That being said maybe instead of trying to guess what went wrong we can discuss steps you would take if this happened to you. Anything more I could test for? I need to find a kh test for the request earlier. Outside of that what things might you do if you saw this happen to your own pond?

      If it would help Iím happy to record a video of my pond setup so you can see the waterfall as well as any surrounding plants plus the amount of bubbles the air stone puts out.


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    8. #48
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      So I find this interesting. Iíll have to double check tomorrow morning but Iím going to mention it now.

      My original Laguna 2100 filter was given to me by a friend (who got it from a friend). In any case, my new 2100 filter came today and when I opened it I noticed something different that concerned me.



      Notice the black tube in the center of the filter. This is missing in my original filter (Iím 99% sure of this but will check tomorrow). The bottom of that tube is where the water exits back to the pond. So having that tube forces water that enters the filter to go down the sides of the sponges and exit out the bottom. If the original filter I have is missing that tube I fear that it is allowing water to enter the top and exit without being forced down through the filter. This concerns me given the discussion about water becoming stagnant and resulting in toxic water. The combination of that mixed me with using the paddles occasionally to clean (yes the water is dumped outside of the pond when doing this) could have agitated stagnant water and pushed it back into the pond? Or the build up finally hit an amount that could kill? Just curious if my thoughts make sense here.


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    9. #49
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      Szweier sorry for your loss, such beautiful fish. You must miss them dearly. Please allow my 2 cents. I've been following this thread and it's gotten quite long for me to review so please forgive me should I miss anything that have already been said. I think you may been having water quality issues in the first place. Having a fair amount of bubbles or foam on the surface usually indicates DOCs or dissolves organics compounds. The more docs there are in the water the less dissolved oxygen and even less so with increasing temperatures. Not doing enough water changes or feeding too much for the filter to handle will contribute to increase docs and less dissolved oxygen. Koi are usually pretty hardy and can cope and adapt to this for awhile especially if the changes are slow. Symptoms could be decrease appetite, turbid water, koi hanging on the surface or by the waterfalls, foam on the surface that hangs around and does not readily pop. On a back drop of increased DOC, zero nitrates could also be a symptom which could indicate areas in the pond that have become anoxic such that bacteria are striping oxygen from nitrates (NO3) instead of dissolved oxygen. And of course when nitrate run out the next source of oxygen is sulphate. When bacteria uses sulphate for their oxygen source they produce the very toxic hydrogen sulphide (H2S).

      So the koi can survive with fairly low level of oxygen and adapt. The problem lies when a toxin come in. These could be ANY chemicals the are added to the pond such as treatments, chemical blown in by the wind, Acid rain, chemicals (organic or inorganic) from run-offs. It's fairly safe or safer to assume that such chemicals added to the water column will consume oxygen. A heavy rainstorm that probably put a slug of chemicals or added for organics overnight along with algae (which also consume oxygen during the night) could have push the ponds oxygen way down (and too fast for any adaptation) and all your fish suffocated, along with other aquatic life such as worms and other underwater bugs. Bugs, bacteria, etc spills out their guts as they die, further increasing docs. This could be why you were seeing a thicker and more brownish foam the morning after.

      I think what has been happening in you pond before this incident is that you were feeding too much or your filter is too small for the amount of good being fed. You don't have any mechanical filter that will readily take out solid fish waste. Your fish waste ends up in that pressure filter but it's too small for any solid waste to bio-degrade in time so it accumulates causing an anoxic environment. BTW your sponges are all different sizes, maybe due to shrinkage (?), or bought from other sources (?), for your levers to effectively flush/brush the surface solids off the sponges. Also original filters come with bio-balls or some sort of lava rocks, not stripping, which brings me to the conclusion that parts may not be working as originally designed.

      I have the same laguna filters except I have FOUR in my 1500G pond (2 x2100, 1 x 4000, and 1 x 3200 model + other filters). BUT I use these laguna filters mainly as biological filters. My pumps are on a shelf 4 feet above the bottom so solid waste which sink to the bottom never end up in the filters (no bottom drain). For solids removal, I vacuum the bottom of my pond daily (yes OCD) but I really don't think I have to. Basically I feed, I vacuum; don't feed, I don't.

      Judging by your though processes, I think you are also coming down to the conclusion that lack of oxygen was the problem. I still would love to see a video of your pond, paying particular attention to the perimeters where run-offs could have occurred. When laying down my liner when the pond was build, I never did cut any excess off. instead I bunched the excess up (sort of lip up) to prevent run-offs from getting into the pond.
      Last edited by KoiRun; 4 Weeks Ago at 10:26 PM.
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    10. #50
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      Thanks for your feedback. When I get a video I know youíll see some places where runoff is possible. The back portion of my pond is higher than the top of the water and have potential for some runoff. I wouldnít be surprised if during a large rain storm that some dirt would make it in. That being said itís an area that I donít treat with anything so Iím not sure whether or not dirt alone wouldíve caused the issue.

      I think I am leaning towards oxygen depletion having been the issue. As for the filter as I stated above I got it from a friend of a friend. The lava rock it shouldíve come with wasnít there and bio ribbon was the solution I came up with. Wondering if thatís a problem or if it still works as far as having room for bacteria to grow. I could always switch to some sort of rock I would guess.

      Given that you have these filters do you know if they ever came without the black center tube? Seeing that itís missing on my one filter makes me wonder.

      Iíll try to get a detailed video of my pond as soon as I can.


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    11. #51
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      Quote Originally Posted by szweier View Post
      Thanks for your feedback. When I get a video I know youíll see some places where runoff is possible. The back portion of my pond is higher than the top of the water and have potential for some runoff. I wouldnít be surprised if during a large rain storm that some dirt would make it in. That being said itís an area that I donít treat with anything so Iím not sure whether or not dirt alone wouldíve caused the issue.

      I think I am leaning towards oxygen depletion having been the issue. As for the filter as I stated above I got it from a friend of a friend. The lava rock it shouldíve come with wasnít there and bio ribbon was the solution I came up with. Wondering if thatís a problem or if it still works as far as having room for bacteria to grow. I could always switch to some sort of rock I would guess.

      Given that you have these filters do you know if they ever came without the black center tube? Seeing that itís missing on my one filter makes me wonder.

      Iíll try to get a detailed video of my pond as soon as I can.


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      Sorry cross-posted.

      You know what I don't even remember that black tube. I do practice some redundancy and stock extra filters and had a look. I would say yes it comes with it and and yes you need that black tube. You'll also need new sponges. You can get new parts from amazon the last time I looked. I particularly like the plastic bio-balls they come with (older model) so order that too. I also like to stuff seachem matrix and bags of activated carbon in there seeing there is extra space.

      Dirt/soil whatever always have different layers and stages of decay of organic matter and when it ends up in the water will provide organic and inorganic chemicals (eg. ammonia) that will consume oxygen.

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      Last edited by KoiRun; 4 Weeks Ago at 11:08 PM.
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    12. #52
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      Please help me understand.

      Checked this morning. The black tube is there. My mistake.

      As for buying new sponges. How often do they need to be replaced. I agree mine seem to be shrinking in the sense that the scrubbers donít grip it like they used to.

      My pond layout (hasnít grown in as much as Iíd like yet)
      https://youtu.be/Gq_E8aYdLaw
      Just realized I recorded in portrait (sigh, it was early)


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      Last edited by szweier; 4 Weeks Ago at 07:52 AM.

    13. #53
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      I don’t want to side track or get in the way. I’m no expert here.
      I know early in the thread you mentioned being worried the tree could be an issue. A simple solution would be a leaf net to keep leaves and seeds out. I’ve had mine on for about a month now and it makes a big difference. It will help there be less organics being added into the pond.

      And I’m not sure I’d be chasing the pesticide route.
      I’m on a farm surrounded by fields. They spray yearly right over my house. Even on breezy days and you can smell it. I have a high ammonia reading from my well the past year or so. We don’t drink the water. But I do keep many tropical fish inside along with koi and goldies outside. I haven’t had any mass die offs. The only fish I’ve lost are ones that were unresponsive to treatment upon purchase or my ryukin that had a ruptured swim bladder this year
      Your fish also looked healthy from my untrained eye. I really hope you are able to find out the cause. This would bother me to no end. My heart goes out to you, I’m so sorry for your loses.

    14. #54
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      Quote Originally Posted by My2butterflies View Post
      I donít want to side track or get in the way. Iím no expert here.
      I know early in the thread you mentioned being worried the tree could be an issue. A simple solution would be a leaf net to keep leaves and seeds out. Iíve had mine on for about a month now and it makes a big difference. It will help there be less organics being added into the pond.

      And Iím not sure Iíd be chasing the pesticide route.
      Iím on a farm surrounded by fields. They spray yearly right over my house. Even on breezy days and you can smell it. I have a high ammonia reading from my well the past year or so. We donít drink the water. But I do keep many tropical fish inside along with koi and goldies outside. I havenít had any mass die offs. The only fish Iíve lost are ones that were unresponsive to treatment upon purchase or my ryukin that had a ruptured swim bladder this year
      Your fish also looked healthy from my untrained eye. I really hope you are able to find out the cause. This would bother me to no end. My heart goes out to you, Iím so sorry for your loses.
      Thanks, yea itís bothering me like you wouldnít believe. Especially having it be the second time around the same time of year. Playing god of the pond is fun right up until you have no one to blame but yourself and youíre not sure why.

      Sorry for your loss.


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    15. #55
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      Thanks for the video. Sorry I think this pond is going to be very hard to work with as pond with koi imo. You'll just end up with another heartache. I am also no expert here, but in I think your pond is way less than 1700 gallons (I think this is what you mentioned), not good for keeping koi outside. As a beginner I think 500G/per koi to play it safe, 2K gallon min, straight walls, and at least 3.5 feet deep, with filters spec for 3x this at least, skimmer; and plan on a cover. The whole perimeter of your pond especially around rock wall and the capping (pic) will have to be lifted up (liner behind it) to prevent or minimize run-offs or else you'll have problems controlling your water. So I would say you'll need a pond re-do, and I can't say much about construction because I (myself) talk about my pond with much chagrin . Here to learn also.

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    16. #56
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      Thanks for the video. Sorry I think this pond is going to be very hard to work with as pond with koi imo. You'll just end up with another heartache. I am also no expert here, but in I think your pond is way less than 1700 gallons (I think this is what you mentioned), not good for keeping koi outside. As a beginner I think 500G/per koi to play it safe, 2K gallon min, straight walls, and at least 3.5 feet deep, with filters spec for 3x this at least, skimmer; and plan on a cover. The whole perimeter of your pond especially around rock wall and the capping (pic) will have to be lifted up (liner behind it) to prevent or minimize run-offs or else you'll have problems controlling your water. So I would say you'll need a pond re-do, and I can't say much about construction because I (myself) talk about my pond with much chagrin . Here to learn also.

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      For what itís worth that rock wall you have a picture of above was something the previous owners had sitting there that I built around. All pieces of that wall are cemented together so I donít believe that anything would be weeping through that. In order to better protect that portion I could easily drop the dirt level a few inches below the top of those rocks.

      As for the amount of water in the pond the last measurements I remember making were. 12 ft long 4ft wide and 4ft deep. I thought this would be good for a few koi but maybe not?


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    17. #57
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      Something just hit me that I think has been said multiple times not only in this thread but in my short pond keeping lifetime. And itís making me feel like an idiot but also making me feel like I have an answer.

      So the pond bubbler I have when I originally put it in and placed it as high as it would go it made it hard to look into the pond. I.E. the bubbles were covering the top of the pond too much. So I lowered it. Now itís hitting me that this likely means the organics in the pond were high(right?). I just cleaned out my pond a bit more. Added my filter and am now refilling from some lost water. As I look at my pond now with the bubbler full blast I notice that the bubbles dissipate almost immediately. Is this something to watch for in general as an indicator that I should do one of two things if not both. A water change and a cleaning of my filters?




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    18. #58
      Essex Koi is offline Senior Member
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      How often and how much water do you change on a regular basis?
      Main pond 4000 US Gallon, 22 Koi. Oase Proficlear Premium + Bio Module, Bitron 120 w UVC, Bakki Shower, Dura 7+ ashp. Grow on tank 600 Gallons with Eazypod Automatic and 70 litre K1 biochamber.

    19. #59
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      Quote Originally Posted by Essex Koi View Post
      How often and how much water do you change on a regular basis?
      It was probably about 3inches that the pond water dropped each time I cleaned my filter. So thatís probably between once a week and once every two weeks. Iím not sure what percentage that would be of the entire pond but Iím assuming itís a low number.


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      Quote Originally Posted by szweier View Post
      It was probably about 3inches that the pond water dropped each time I cleaned my filter. So that’s probably between once a week and once every two weeks. I’m not sure what percentage that would be of the entire pond but I’m assuming it’s a low number.


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      If it was my pond, I’d be aiming for 20-30% a week to minimise issues with water quality. Currently, I change 10-15% 3 times a week. This is with good filtration, when it wasn’t so good, I was changing 10% - 20% daily. You’ll find you can get away with a multitude of issues by doing this.

      If it is 1700 Gallons, you should be looking to do around 300 gallon changes at a bare minimum - once a week. A cheap water meter onto your hose should help you keep track. https://www.amazon.com/P3-Measure-Ga...or+garden+hose
      Main pond 4000 US Gallon, 22 Koi. Oase Proficlear Premium + Bio Module, Bitron 120 w UVC, Bakki Shower, Dura 7+ ashp. Grow on tank 600 Gallons with Eazypod Automatic and 70 litre K1 biochamber.

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