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  • Results 1 to 18 of 18

    Thread: new koi sitting on bottom and laying on side

    1. #1
      Tlandrum is offline Junior Member
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      new koi sitting on bottom and laying on side

      i just purchased several new koi. Brought them home and placed in quarantine tank. they were fine for the first 2 days. but i seen them sitting on the bottom some yesterday. they swam off like normal when i walked over and looked in on them. today they are sitting at the bottom and then rolling over onto there side. If you disturb them they will swim off like nothing is wrong and then settle back down to the bottom and roll onto their side. water quality is 0 across the board with 7 ph. I use a trickle in and trickle out from my well water. All my other fish are fine in the main pond,and indoor tank that has the same water and quality. Any one have any idea as to what i have got going on? Could in be water logged swim bladder from the couple of hr rd trip on winding rds getting sloshed around. im grasping at straws and have no clue what it could be. i bought 4 other fish just a few days earlier that are fine in the same water. these are not low quality or cheap fish. they came from a very reputable breeder. Any help is greatly appreciated and thanks in advance.

    2. #2
      tamatamane's Avatar
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      Sounds like "sleeping sickness" that occur mainly with young tosai/nisai in colder temperatures. If it is, you'll want to take action quick!
      However I was under the impression that a lot of breeders in Japan(and some US dealers) purposely expose tosai with the virus, as it's like chicken pox and once you get it and heal, you won't get it/spread it again.

      Fortunately I haven't had to battle this disease yet so my knowledge isn't extensive but if others don't chime in by tomorrow night, I can translate some parts from an article that was featured in Gekkan Nishikigoi magazine.
      I know that there's a certain point at which you must salt & heat to boost the fish's immune system. Too early and the virus still hasn't taken over to the point where the fish can fight it off, too late and the fish will "sleep eternally"...

      Google Chrome's translate feature did pretty well on this article.
      http://jnpa.info/b1/ks010.htm
      Last edited by tamatamane; 1 Week Ago at 03:48 AM.

    3. #3
      mplskoi is offline Supporting Member
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    4. #4
      Tlandrum is offline Junior Member
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      qt tank has a air pump capable of aerating a 2000gal pond and its only a 90 gal qt tank

    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tlandrum View Post
      i just purchased several new koi. Brought them home and placed in quarantine tank. they were fine for the first 2 days. but i seen them sitting on the bottom some yesterday. they swam off like normal when i walked over and looked in on them. today they are sitting at the bottom and then rolling over onto there side. If you disturb them they will swim off like nothing is wrong and then settle back down to the bottom and roll onto their side. water quality is 0 across the board with 7 ph. I use a trickle in and trickle out from my well water. All my other fish are fine in the main pond,and indoor tank that has the same water and quality. Any one have any idea as to what i have got going on? Could in be water logged swim bladder from the couple of hr rd trip on winding rds getting sloshed around. im grasping at straws and have no clue what it could be. i bought 4 other fish just a few days earlier that are fine in the same water. these are not low quality or cheap fish. they came from a very reputable breeder. Any help is greatly appreciated and thanks in advance.
      Welcome to Koiphen but I sorry for the reason you joined us!
      Swim bladder issues with koi I've seen are usually a problem with floating, i.e. they have a "nose down" attitude and
      can't keep their tail below water. I've never seen one have a problem after shipping, much less several all with the same
      issue. Unless you bought them from the breeder they've probably been with a retail dealer for some time... did you try
      and contact them?
      What's the water temp? I know my well water is about 50*-55* and in a 90g tank I wonder if it's dropping the water temp?
      Do you know what your KH of the well water is and your QT?
      --Steve
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      "It is far better to be alone, than to be in bad company." --George Washington

    6. #6
      coolwon is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tlandrum View Post
      i just purchased several new koi. Brought them home and placed in quarantine tank. they were fine for the first 2 days. but i seen them sitting on the bottom some yesterday. they swam off like normal when i walked over and looked in on them. today they are sitting at the bottom and then rolling over onto there side. If you disturb them they will swim off like nothing is wrong and then settle back down to the bottom and roll onto their side. water quality is 0 across the board with 7 ph. I use a trickle in and trickle out from my well water. All my other fish are fine in the main pond,and indoor tank that has the same water and quality. Any one have any idea as to what i have got going on? Could in be water logged swim bladder from the couple of hr rd trip on winding rds getting sloshed around. im grasping at straws and have no clue what it could be. i bought 4 other fish just a few days earlier that are fine in the same water. these are not low quality or cheap fish. they came from a very reputable breeder. Any help is greatly appreciated and thanks in advance.
      Could it be hardness shock?

      The new fish have come from a low hardness to a high hardness water condition.

      This causes the fish to roll over and lie on the bottom.

      The fish should eventually adapt to the new water condition and behave normally.

      Garfield
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

    7. #7
      Tlandrum is offline Junior Member
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      kh is at 9 drops. These fish were bought straight from the farm/breeder. water temp is 72. the qt tank stays set up inside my heated garage. i floated them until water temps matched. then i slowly introduced my water into the bag over a 45 min to hr time span. i then pulled fish from bag and added to the qt tank. dumped bag water into flower bed. I have never heard of hardness shock but if it is,and will be able to overcome it that would be great. They are all still alive at this point. I also had another fish in the qt tank already when they got here that is perfectly fine.

    8. #8
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      For future reference, if the fish have been in the bag for much time, do not open the bag and start adding your water to the bag water, just remove the fish to the isolation tank. The bag water has had the fish respire carbon dioxide into the water making it more acid, and they release ammonia into the bag, which at low pH is not toxic. Once the bag is opened, some of the carbon dioxide will start to leave the water and the pH will start to climb making the ammonia more toxic. Adding your water accelerates the pH shift and accelerates the toxic levels of the ammonia. Getting the fish out with the least time that the bag has to be open is best.

      Some dealers promote the adding of your water to the bag water, but the only way that works is to have the fish in the bag a very short time and the bag essentially untied or not oxygenated as done by the good dealers. I have never experienced a problem with moving the fish immediately following taking them to shows where they had 4 or 5 hours in the bag or longer. They are pretty tough when it comes to moving into the pond. The pH shift isn't a problem, the hardness shift has never been a problem, but the temperature shift should be minimized by floating the bag in the shade as long as possible. I have never experienced your problem so not sure of the cause.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    9. #9
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      Good for you for quarantining them!!

      In my experience this screams flukes and/or other parasites!

      Stress or shock could possibly be a factor also, but scrape and scope and I think you will find the problem

    10. #10
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      i dont have a very good microscope and am limited in experience using it but i dont see any parasites. i just moved all of my pond fish to an indoor pool for wintering while i rebuild my outdoor pond.pool holds 2000 gal of water and i had planned on treating all the fish once they were in the same pool, but i could go ahead and shotgun the ones in quarantine separately. i dont like to add new fish to the pond unless they have been treated first. it may be wrong but it has kept me from introducing parasites to my fish that may not have shown up in qt.

    11. #11
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      Are they acting like the koi in this video?

      The article is 7 pages long so I will only translate the important parts.
      "Nemuri-disease and maintenance throughout the 4 seasons"

      1) Most often occurs in the Spring, Fall, and cold Winters and a type of a pox virus is the cause.

      2) First discovered in Niigata & Hiroshima in 1974.

      3) Viruses in general first attack the cells of the gill & body and as a result, fish show symptoms such as rolling over/loss of scales/veining/sunken eyes.

      4) Salt the water to 0.6%. Often times this one week treatment is all that is needed. Check the salt levels daily with a salt meter and re-dose as needed since the fish will absorb the salt and lower the levels in the water. If the water is cold, raising the temperature to 20-25C(27-28C is possible) can make the treatment more effective, however care must be taken because if the water becomes too warm fish(especially young individuals) will lose weight and become weak.

      5) KHV will also show similar symptoms so you must be careful not to accidentally create a KHV survivor/carrier with the heat treatment. In the case of nemuri-disease, symptoms such as sunken eyes and veining will usually show up within a week.

      6) Once infected, the fish produces an antibody. However it doesn't mean that the fish will never contract the virus again. According to the reports of a research institute; along with the antibody, the pox virus stays in various parts of the body for about a year and a half. After this period if a fish with the virus is introduced to the pond, a breakout could reoccur.

      7) 80% of koi breeders intentionally put their tosai(koi under 1 year old) to sleep and they will have an antibody by the time they are shipped out in the Spring. Some dealers will also put their new arrivals to sleep in case some didn't contract the virus at the breeder's facility. The ones that slipped by will start tipping over and the ones that are already immune will not be affected. There are cases of nisai(2 year old) that contract the virus, but it is rarely seen in sansai(3 year old) and yonsai(4 year old). However it is much more difficult to treat nisai than tosai.


      I was confused with 6)...I think the author meant to say "During this period" instead of "After this period".

      Last edited by tamatamane; 4 Days Ago at 02:15 AM.

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      For future reference, if the fish have been in the bag for much time, do not open the bag and start adding your water to the bag water, just remove the fish to the isolation tank. The bag water has had the fish respire carbon dioxide into the water making it more acid, and they release ammonia into the bag, which at low pH is not toxic. Once the bag is opened, some of the carbon dioxide will start to leave the water and the pH will start to climb making the ammonia more toxic. Adding your water accelerates the pH shift and accelerates the toxic levels of the ammonia. Getting the fish out with the least time that the bag has to be open is best.

      Some dealers promote the adding of your water to the bag water, but the only way that works is to have the fish in the bag a very short time and the bag essentially untied or not oxygenated as done by the good dealers. I have never experienced a problem with moving the fish immediately following taking them to shows where they had 4 or 5 hours in the bag or longer. They are pretty tough when it comes to moving into the pond. The pH shift isn't a problem, the hardness shift has never been a problem, but the temperature shift should be minimized by floating the bag in the shade as long as possible. I have never experienced your problem so not sure of the cause.
      What this poster said is valid for future debagging of koi. I have handled a buncha fish in my lifetime and seen this happen more than once. Next time don't play the "add a little water over a period of time" game...float the bag. then open it, then get em out of the old water.
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    13. #13
      coolwon is offline Senior Member
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      Any feedback on this issue??

      Garfield
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    14. #14
      Tlandrum is offline Junior Member
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      right now im treating for parasites. some fish are showing slight improvement. fingers crossed they are going to come around and be ok. i did see two fish in the quarantine tank flash yesterday so i started treated all my ponds and tanks today with koi rx terminate and will prazi them after that is done. im hoping that this is the problem after seeing the flashing. it was time to do my fall parasite treatment before closing down the ponds anyway.

    15. #15
      coolwon is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tlandrum View Post
      right now im treating for parasites. some fish are showing slight improvement. fingers crossed they are going to come around and be ok. i did see two fish in the quarantine tank flash yesterday so i started treated all my ponds and tanks today with koi rx terminate and will prazi them after that is done. im hoping that this is the problem after seeing the flashing. it was time to do my fall parasite treatment before closing down the ponds anyway.

      Were the two newer reported fish still lying on the bottom as if they had had a stroke but took off when approached?

      Garfield
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      Tlandrum is offline Junior Member
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      it was actually 7 fish and a couple of them are back to sitting upright but still on the bottom with clamped fins. as of yet none have died. im doing the water change for second round of treatment right now.
      Last edited by Tlandrum; 20 Hours Ago at 09:14 PM. Reason: spelling

    17. #17
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      today they all seem to be in different stages of recovery or decline. chagoi has lost most of his color and sometimes swims up to the top with head out of water like he is having gill problems. his gills look good so i cant figure that out .the ki utsuri has a couple of red bumps that came out.the platinum ogon has red splotches on him. the smallest of them which was a sanke at about 4'' long seems to be doing great. the soragoi is swimming around a bit and the 6'' sanke is hanging at mid water level upright and swimming around some. the hi utsuri is sitting up right but still just sitting on bottom. the couple of them feels like sand paper and has no slime coat. i did my last parasite treatment on them today ,so its sit back ,hope and pray they all come out of it.

    18. #18
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      i ended up euthenizing my chagoi last night and the 6'' sanke died over night. the rest in the qt tank are doing better as far as sitting up right and swimming some but the ki usturi and hi utsuri are getting the white patches.

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