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    Thread: Head on Sand and Gravel filters.

    1. #1
      LoriP is offline Senior Member
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      Head on Sand and Gravel filters.

      Probably a silly question but say you have a sand and gravel filter (or multples) but for each.. When calculating head, would there be any significant difference between bringing the water in the bottom vs piping up and over and down through the top like the standard birdman design?

      Is head calculated in that scenario at the bottom of the barrel where the water enters or at the top of the barrel once it's full?

      In my mind, going into the bottom seems like cutting out at least 3 elbows. Bring it from horizontal to vertical (1 elbow) up the side and elbow over the barrel (2nd elbow) then elbow down again to send it down the riser to the distribution assembly at the bottom of the barrel. (3rd elbow)

      Or is all of this negligible? Trying to figure out the number of S&G filters I can run off a Es 8500. Pump below water line after Ultrasieve III, was thinking 3 sand and gravel with bottoms at water level flowing into moving bed or shower that spills to pond.
      Last edited by LoriP; 10-10-2018 at 01:17 PM.

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    2. #2
      ricshaw is offline Senior Member
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      Plumbing frictions contributes to water flow.

      Head is the height at which a pump can raise water up. What is Head?

    3. #3
      LoriP is offline Senior Member
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      I used wrong terminology.. I have read the primers on here, I've read the link you included. I guess the question I'm asking is does the barrel itself constitute just another large diameter pipe and the height to the filled level is where you should measure?

      If two barrels are sitting side by side, one barrel is pumped into from the bottom, the other coming up and over the side. All other variables equal which one will be favorable? Or, it doesn't matter because it's all calculated to the top of the barrel once full?
      Last edited by LoriP; 10-10-2018 at 03:29 PM.

    4. #4
      ricshaw is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by LoriP View Post
      I guess the question I'm asking is does the barrel itself constitute just another large diameter pipe and the height to the filled level is where you should measure?

      If two barrels are sitting side by side, one barrel is pumped into from the bottom, the other coming up and over the side. All other variables equal which one will be favorable? Or, it doesn't matter because it's all calculated to the top of the barrel once full?
      I would say yes the barrel itself constitute just another large diameter pipe and the height the fill gravel is additional flow restriction. All other variables (90° el fittings friction) equal, I do not think it matters.


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    5. #5
      LoriP is offline Senior Member
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      In my mind it seems that the barrel that gets its water directly into the bottom would be favorable in terms of less friction/resistance etc. If the guts of the barrel are the same, then the barrel that is piped up, over and back down to the bottom would seem to suffer more loss/restriction in the additional pipe and fittings that it takes to get the water to the distribution assembly in the bottom

    6. #6
      LoriP is offline Senior Member
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      Oops. Must have been composing while you posted. Thank you!

    7. #7
      wfhoffmaniii is offline Senior Member
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      In my experience going through the filter adds another 2 inches of head when clean to 6 or more inches of head when dirty (just before weekly cleaning). Generally you can flow around 2,000 GpH through each filter. Depending on the pump flow/head specifications you might be able to handle 4 s/g filters. That pump will still flow 8K GpH at 5 or 6 feet of total head, both static and dynamic included. Also keep in mind that the static head from the s/g filter is only added once while the dynamic head for each filter has to be multiplied by the number of filters installed (total number of elbows, total length of pipe, etc).

      Bill

    8. #8
      LoriP is offline Senior Member
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      Thank you. That is very helpful.

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      kimini is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by wfhoffmaniii View Post
      ...Also keep in mind that the static head from the s/g filter is only added once while the dynamic head for each filter has to be multiplied by the number of filters installed (total number of elbows, total length of pipe, etc). Bill
      If I'm reading this right, this is incorrect. The dynamic head will be divided by the number of filters because the water's being given multiple parallel paths, which results in less resistance. The static head will remain constant regardless of the number of filters since it only depends upon the difference in water level between the entrances and exits.
      Last edited by kimini; 10-12-2018 at 01:29 PM.

    10. #10
      hp is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by wfhoffmaniii View Post
      In my experience going through the filter adds another 2 inches of head when clean to 6 or more inches of head when dirty (just before weekly cleaning). Generally you can flow around 2,000 GpH through each filter. Depending on the pump flow/head specifications you might be able to handle 4 s/g filters. That pump will still flow 8K GpH at 5 or 6 feet of total head, both static and dynamic included. Also keep in mind that the static head from the s/g filter is only added once while the dynamic head for each filter has to be multiplied by the number of filters installed (total number of elbows, total length of pipe, etc).

      Bill
      I don't think this is true because all 4 S&G filters/barrels circuits are in parallel. 4 parallels circuits will have less dynamic head than if it were 1.

      ooppp... duplicate with Kimini response.
      hp.

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    11. #11
      wfhoffmaniii is offline Senior Member
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      I agree, the dynamic head will be lower at a constant pipe diameter because the flow is slower by being divided between several filters. Even so if I'm remembering the calculations correctly its roughly the same for each filter and the contribution from each filter has to be added together for the total dynamic head while the static head only needs to be added once.
      Last edited by wfhoffmaniii; 10-12-2018 at 03:07 PM.

    12. #12
      kimini is offline Senior Member
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      Resistance to water flow is like electrical resistance. Put in parallel, the total will be 1/N. I'd like to see a reference that says otherwise.

    13. #13
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      In actual use I have seen very little flow loss going through S/G filters.

    14. #14
      LoriP is offline Senior Member
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      Thanks everyone for the information. I will start with three and leave myself the option of a 4th. I'm in love with them for the ease of cleaning and that paired with the 2 I have on the other pump and the new Ultrasieve III here waiting on the new pump my life is about to get a little easier

    15. #15
      Dave 01 is offline Member
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      I don't remember Birdmanns filter being fed from the top and I don't think anyone can give you your answer without knowing the pipe size, how many fittings, and length of the pipe before getting to the header that feeds the filters from the pump

    16. #16
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      I believe Kent's design had a top feed pipe going down to the bottom, so actually is was a bottom feed design like my design. You can put your piping anywhere you want as long as the water goes from the bottom up through the gravel, sand, and out the top.

    17. #17
      LoriP is offline Senior Member
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      I have read so many birdman sand and gravel threads, iterations, mods, I may have mispoken. My current two are made from the reeeaaaallly long thread with the 5 way in the bottom fed by center pipe that comes in from the top and through the grate which is made from the lid, blower manifold on top of the grate then the layers. I'm going to go the way of plumbing the water in from the bottom for the next three to minimize the pipe and elbows needed for up and over. Also looks a little cleaner. They sure are a breeze to clean.
      Last edited by LoriP; 10-13-2018 at 11:07 AM.

    18. #18
      icu2's Avatar
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      One thing the "up and over" version can do is you can skip using a check valve if you normally
      would need one. Drill a small hole in the incoming flow pipe (the red arrow) and it'll break the siphon
      effect if you should lose power. But feeding it from the bottom is for sure less head.

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    19. #19
      kimini is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      ...But feeding it from the bottom is for sure less head.
      I politely disagree. All that matters is the incoming water levels exposed to the atmosphere at the inlet and output of the pump. On the inlet side is the pond, and on the output side is the water at the top of the SG filter. Other than pipe bends and length, the path the pipe takes between the pump and drum makes no difference.
      Last edited by kimini; 10-13-2018 at 08:18 PM.

    20. #20
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      I politely disagree. All that matters is the incoming water levels exposed to the atmosphere at the inlet and output of the pump. On the inlet side is the pond, and on the output side is the water at the top of the SG filter. Other than pipe bends and length, the path the pipe takes between the pump and drum makes no difference.
      So those don't matter? Doesn't the pump still have to pump it higher than if it was fed
      from the bottom and through 2 additional 90's?
      --Steve



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