• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
    Results 1 to 20 of 26

    Thread: Strange Growth around Koi Mouth

    1. #1
      Koikeeperz is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      United Kingdom
      Posts
      11

      Strange Growth around Koi Mouth

      Help Please with a Strange Unknown Growth Around One Koi Mouth For Identification - has anyone seen this before ?

      Habitat is a 700 gallon pond containing 10 koi with body length 10 to 14 inches.
      Filtration turning over the water approx. every 1.5 hrs is firstly through a sealed pressure filter passing output through ultra violet light unit & magnetic unit to a second separate two chamber filter with different sized filtration sponges , firstly ‘ large ‘ then ‘fine ‘ perforations . The pond is stocked with plants which the koi have grown up with & do not damage . The filters run continuously as do 5 air stones . Maintenance is rotating renewing sponges with new as required less in the winter & more in the summer . Some filter sponges have been changed a month ago & different ones changed a few days ago , allowing for residual filter sponges with bacteria . There must be a lot of resident bacteria in this fairly thickly planted pond.
      The pond as now has been running for a least 15 years with the last new fish several years ago , minimum 4 years ago & no new plants added in the same timeframe .
      Temperature is seasonal ranging progressively from freezing to approx. 30 degrees .
      Attached Images Attached Images    

    2. #2
      RichToyBox's Avatar
      RichToyBox is offline Administrator ~ WWKC BOD ~
      Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Sandston, VA
      Posts
      13,384
      I have no idea what the problem could be, but it would most likely be viral (disappearing in time) or tumor, which will only get worse. Sorry.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    3. #3
      Koikeeperz is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      United Kingdom
      Posts
      11
      Thanks for your interest . Having searched the internet & posted the issue on this forum I think someone , somewhere , must have experienced this situation . Surely I cannot be unique in this world ?
      Let's hope they see this post & then we will all be wiser !

    4. #4
      DarkStar is online now Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2004
      Location
      PA, USA
      Posts
      780
      Quote Originally Posted by Koikeeperz View Post
      Help Please with a Strange Unknown Growth Around One Koi Mouth For Identification - has anyone seen this before ?

      Habitat is a 700 gallon pond containing 10 koi with body length 10 to 14 inches.
      Filtration turning over the water approx. every 1.5 hrs is firstly through a sealed pressure filter passing output through ultra violet light unit & magnetic unit to a second separate two chamber filter with different sized filtration sponges , firstly ‘ large ‘ then ‘fine ‘ perforations . The pond is stocked with plants which the koi have grown up with & do not damage . The filters run continuously as do 5 air stones . Maintenance is rotating renewing sponges with new as required less in the winter & more in the summer . Some filter sponges have been changed a month ago & different ones changed a few days ago , allowing for residual filter sponges with bacteria . There must be a lot of resident bacteria in this fairly thickly planted pond.
      The pond as now has been running for a least 15 years with the last new fish several years ago , minimum 4 years ago & no new plants added in the same timeframe .
      Temperature is seasonal ranging progressively from freezing to approx. 30 degrees .
      Questions:
      You said "The pond as now has been running for a least 15 years with the last new fish several years ago , minimum 4 years ago" - Was this the new fish added?
      Did the growth just begin? Start to show in cold water or warm?
      Has it looked the same from the beginning or changed over time?
      Has it remained or come and gone and returned again?
      Find Something You Would Die For And Live for It.



    5. #5
      Koikeeperz is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      United Kingdom
      Posts
      11
      Hello Dark Star


      This fish was one of a group of 4 added to the pond several years ago , not the last group but penultimate group .
      Non of the others in the same group or newer group show any sign of a problem . Minor growth first notice at the end of winter , water about 8 degrees . Growth ' blossomed during hot summer with water up to 30 degrees , but has not decreased . Water at time of photo at start of fall now about 15 degrees . I think this information answers your questions , if not please come back to me . Thanks .

    6. #6
      DarkStar is online now Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2004
      Location
      PA, USA
      Posts
      780
      Quote Originally Posted by Koikeeperz View Post
      Hello Dark Star


      This fish was one of a group of 4 added to the pond several years ago , not the last group but penultimate group .
      Non of the others in the same group or newer group show any sign of a problem . Minor growth first notice at the end of winter , water about 8 degrees . Growth ' blossomed during hot summer with water up to 30 degrees , but has not decreased . Water at time of photo at start of fall now about 15 degrees . I think this information answers your questions , if not please come back to me . Thanks .
      I had a Koi that looked somewhat similar (from what I can see from the angle of your photos) many years ago. I'm searching through old written records. I also changed PC's and not everything got transferred. I haven't given up though; still looking as time permits. I just want to refresh my memory and make sure it's the way I remember it and we'll try to sort this out if nothing else by process of elimination.

      Just to clarify ... You said: "Growth ' blossomed during hot summer with water up to 30 degrees , but has not decreased . Water at time of photo at start of fall now about 15 degrees". You mean 30 degrees Celsius (86* Fahrenheit) - 15 degrees Celsius (59* Fahrenheit) Yes?
      There's no sign that it was an injury of some kind? More like a growth or peeling skin or excess skin or ....? Does it seem waxy? or cottony?
      Find Something You Would Die For And Live for It.



    7. #7
      Koikeeperz is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      United Kingdom
      Posts
      11
      Hello again Dark Star . Yes I was quoting temperatures in Centigrade & therefore your Fahrenheit transpositions are correct .

      No sign of injury or cotton woolly like growths & no waxy appearances .

      It is perhaps more like inflation into sponge from the inner lip lining .

      The strange syndrome means I have no idea what to treat the fish / pond with or whether treatment is necessary or any treatment would be effective .

      Any further help from your records would be greatly appreciated .

    8. #8
      DarkStar is online now Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2004
      Location
      PA, USA
      Posts
      780
      Hello KoiKeeperz,

      I'm terribly sorry I was unable to find my old QT Log & Treatment Records.

      Do you think you could get a few pictures of his mouth from a front angle? Perhaps someone will be better able to recognize it that way.

      So trying to figure out what precipitated this growth on your Koi, here's what we know:
      It seems to have been temperature triggered, in only one 'relatively young' Koi in an established pond that had already been in residence for about 4 years, it showed no sign of any problem or abnormal behavior prior to the appearance of this strange growth, the skin/tissue does not appear to be inflamed or ulcerated, the koi continues to eat and behave normally otherwise, all other Koi appear to be unaffected (Are they all still eating and behaving ok? No inflamed areas, flashing, isolating, clamped fins, etc.?). Water parameters are all normal.

      There's nothing there to narrow things down and zero in on a direction to go in.

      For now since you don't know what it is, is it possible to quarantine him for the time being (with a 'friend' if you have one you can spare / sacrifice if need be).? If it's something that can be passed to the other fish you risk leaving him in there even longer giving it more opportunity to spread.

      I don't know how valuable he is, but is there a Fish Vet in your area that you can consult with or take him to? I've checked online (even YouTube) with every search combination I could think of, but only found the typical 'mouth rot', cottonwool disease', etc.)

      I wish I had something more to offer.

      Again, If you can get some additional photos from a different angle up maybe someone will be able to recognize it.
      Find Something You Would Die For And Live for It.



    9. #9
      graybird's Avatar
      graybird is offline Supporting Member ~ WWKC BOD ~
      Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2008
      Location
      San Rafael, CA
      Posts
      1,700
      The only thing I have seen that is remotely like this was a tumor on the mouth that Duncan Griffiths removed surgically. That was a much smaller "footprint", though. I would recommend consulting an aquatic vet in your area if there is one, or pm me if you want to contact Duncan.

      Is the fish able to eat?
      Mary

    10. #10
      Koikeeperz is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      United Kingdom
      Posts
      11
      Hello again Dark Star & thanks for your effort & prompting thoughts .

      There are only normal vets in the area & while I did trace a practice with a vet with more fishy experience , that practice would only deal with dead specimens , which defeated the intent to have a treated live fish . The fish is not punitively valuable if it had to be destroyed , but that goes against the grain somewhat having all my life cared for the fish I own .

      The temperatures have dropped way down now , 3 to 8 degrees centigrade overnight as winter sets in . All the fish have stopped feeding .

      As my time allows over the next few weeks I will try to catch the fish & take some photos , including head on , to try displaying the ' growth' better .

      I have now treated the pond with a general koi medication , although it is annoying I still do not know what I am treating , but hopefully some support medication is better than nothing .


      If you have a light bulb moment I will be grateful for any further thoughts .
      Last edited by Koikeeperz; 10-28-2018 at 05:59 PM. Reason: additional temperture definition ' overnight '

    11. #11
      Koikeeperz is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      United Kingdom
      Posts
      11
      Hello Graystar & thanks for your input .

      The temperatures have dropped way down now , 3 to 8 degrees centigrade overnight as winter sets in . All the fish have stopped feeding . Up until the temperature drop the fish was feeding avidly like the others in the pond .


      Observations from Duncan Griffiths , volunteered by yourself , could be very useful .

    12. #12
      KoiRun's Avatar
      KoiRun is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2015
      Location
      Mississauga, Ontario
      Posts
      1,542
      Koikeeperz, do you check your water parameters regularly? If so are your water parameters by including the numbers. If not, have you notice anything recently out of the norm that could indicate that water quality was off such as cloudy water, colour change, excess foam; and how did you remedy this?

      Since you've have this pond, can you tell us past and recent illness (eg. carp pox, ulcers, etc) and deaths and how you've tried to diagnose and dealt with these problems and what medications you've used and whether they worked or not. How old are your resident koi?

      Has anything changed in your routine maintenance recently and what was the reason for that change? For example, you mentioned you installed new sponges a month and ago and a few days ago? Is this a routine of yours, if not, why the change?

      You've mentioned you've just used a general koi medication, what is the name of it and have used this before.

      I can probably ask you a few more questions, but further information you volunteer to mention the better.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    13. #13
      graybird's Avatar
      graybird is offline Supporting Member ~ WWKC BOD ~
      Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2008
      Location
      San Rafael, CA
      Posts
      1,700
      Pm sent, koikeeperz.
      Mary

    14. #14
      Koikeeperz is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      United Kingdom
      Posts
      11
      Hello Koirun & thanks for your interest .

      Before replying I took some time to buy a new water test kit just in case I was being misled by my existing test kit .


      Here are the results taken today :-

      pH 7.6
      KH 6 degrees ( 107 ppm )
      GH 7 degrees ( 116ppm )
      Nitrite 0.0
      Nitrate 10
      Ammonia Nil
      Chlorine Nil

      The results seem very reasonable to me , unless someone can identify a flaw .

      Nothing unusual on water quality past or present & no untoward signs of a water issue .

      The Koi in the pond age from about 6 years up to say 10/12 years .

      The last illness issue was several years ago ( say 6/7 years ago ) when the rampant Koi virus struck killing a lot of my older & bigger fish . That is why I did not restock the pond for a couple of years & then the gradually bought more fish . All of my fish come from the same Koi breeder with their own ponds & breeding fish , there are no fish brought in from outside by the breeder so it is a ring fenced situation .

      The filter sponge change is my normal routine having waited for the sponges to become blocked & at their most efficient so when the filter gets near overflowing , as long as the water parameters are still OK , I then partially change the filter sponges .

      The medication I used , almost in desperation due to the lack of identification of the problem , is Tetra Medifin which is a general treatment . ( Amount of active ingredient per 100 ml of solution: Formaldehyde 4.762g, Malachite green oxalate 90.0mg ) .

      I have used this treatment many times over the years basically as a supportive / preventative application if frogs appear in the pond in the spring , in case they are carrying disease . This problem could of course be something nasty brought into the pond by pond visitors be it frogs , dragon flies , birds , etc . I have not experienced any bad reaction to Tetra Medifin by the Koi .

      I think this is all the information requested .
      Last edited by Koikeeperz; 11-01-2018 at 07:41 AM.

    15. #15
      DarkStar is online now Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2004
      Location
      PA, USA
      Posts
      780
      Hi Koikeeperz, I hope you’ll be able to get some answers from Duncan Griffiths regarding that specific koi, but I have to ask about the Nitrite 0.5 that you posted. Was that a mistake? Have your previous tests all read the same? Over what period of time?
      If your Nitrites (note the NitrItes) are anything but 0.0 there is a problem and it could seriously affect your fish.
      Find Something You Would Die For And Live for It.



    16. #16
      KoiRun's Avatar
      KoiRun is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2015
      Location
      Mississauga, Ontario
      Posts
      1,542
      Koikeeperz, you have an impressive record of maintaining this pond and it's inhabitants for so many years and probably enjoyed the hobby.

      As per DarkStar please double check the nitrite level of .5. and answer her question as whether this has been going on for awhile. Nitrite level should always remain 0; any level above 0 can harm fish. The presence of nitrite indicates possible over-feeding, too many fish, or inadequate biological filtration. I wonder if the
      presence of nitrite could have directly or indirectly cause your issue as it's presence could have weaken the immune system so that this koi succumbed to a parasite or pathogen it could otherwise have resisted.
      So this needs to be addressed first.

      I would start by making sure you have adequate oxygenation and surface agitation in your pond. Use of low level of salt or the use of Seachem Safe/Prime can reduce the harmful effects of nitrite. Help your filter boost nitrification by water changes, cutting back on the feed (if you are still feeding at this temp), and making sure the bottom of the pond is clear and clean.

      As I said you've been doing this for awhile and have been for the most part successful. I would basically carry on your normal routine but I would suggest a couple of changes. One is that you don't wait until these sponges get blocked as waste matter or solid will impede nitrification. Second is that you not replace these sponges with new ones (unless they are falling apart). A gentle wash in a bucket of pond water will do. Mature sponges will more than quickly bounce back. I wonder if you've actually caught your newer sponges cycling; hence the nitrite reading. One other thing is that during you filter cleaning, make sure you minimize pond water clouding up by wasting a good portion of the initial incoming water as you start your pump back up. Good luck.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    17. #17
      DarkStar is online now Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2004
      Location
      PA, USA
      Posts
      780
      I was hoping the .5 Nitrite was a mistake so I didn't want to start in on what to do.

      I'm wondering how safe a salt treatment is. If I read the info correctly the pond was recently treated with "Tetra Medifin which is a general treatment . ( Amount of active ingredient per 100 ml of solution: Formaldehyde 4.762g, Malachite green oxalate 90.0mg )". I could be wrong but isn't the max for salt and Malachite 0.1%?

      Koikeeperz, do you have a salinity meter or a salinity test kit?
      Find Something You Would Die For And Live for It.



    18. #18
      Koikeeperz is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      United Kingdom
      Posts
      11
      Hello DarkStar & thankyou for pointing out the error of my ways , that it is not a good idea writing notes in bad handwriting , on a flexing piece of paper towel in the wind , by the pond at night then transcribing onto the internet .

      I have taken another test in daylight & can confirm the nitrite reading is absolutely NIL . I have changed the previous text accordingly .

      On your point of salinity many years ago , lets say 10 years , I did use salt in koi ponds but stopped . I do however still have the residue of a bag of koi pond salt , the salinity meter has long gone .

      But if recommended I could buy a hydrometer or more modern electric meter , both are cheap .

      I am prepared to try any reasonable recommendation .

      Below is an article from Koimedic , the treatment by salt may be worse than the original problem , upsetting Koi osmosis , etc :-

      Salt concentrations between 0.3% and 0.5% (3 to 5 ppt) will upset the osmotic balance of some parasites i.e. the parasites’ cells will dehydrate and thus killing them. Salt concentration of 0.3% are effective at detoxifying nitrite and has been used to control string algae. Nevertheless, 0.3% salt can also stunt water lilies and floating plants (water hyacinth, water lettuce, etc.) than most bog plants.

      For treatment of parasite, it is recommended to treat koi in a separate container or hospital tank at 0.3% salt. A prolong 0.3% salt in the whole pond will promote the formation of super parasite that will get immune to higher salt level. It is important not to prolong salt level above 0.25% for more than 2 weeks. Dilute pond to 0.1% to 0.2%. Keep pond at 0.1% to 0.2% salt level and use parasiticides or antibiotics added concurrently with the treatment. This treatment is for general prevention and consultation is required from your local koi supplier for specific infections.
      Last edited by Koikeeperz; 11-01-2018 at 10:22 AM.

    19. #19
      kdh is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2011
      Location
      up north
      Posts
      7,522
      Nobody is going to help you with your issue on KP.

      I pm'd you to get into contact with LHF Labs http://www.lincsfishhealth.co.uk/

      What did they say?

      Post #2 says it all.

      You could have a skin issue,cancer,viral etc.

    20. #20
      Koikeeperz is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      United Kingdom
      Posts
      11
      Quote '' I pm'd you to get into contact with LHF Labs http://www.lincsfishhealth.co.uk/

      What did they say? ''

      What is ' pm ' nothing received until now & yes I will contact staff at http://www.lincsfishhealth.co.uk , thanks .

    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Tags for this Thread

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •