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    Thread: We have a Diagnosis - now I need some help :(

    1. #1
      firerunner is offline Junior Member
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      We have a Diagnosis - now I need some help :(

      Vet called (I have attached the culture report)

      Background, ever since the flood we have been battling ulcers. Fred has been on baytril no help and Blinkie was on baytril about hmm 8 weeks after the flood.
      - Pond info, well established, 5000/6000 gallon completely enclosed pond. Amnonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0, phosphate 0, PH stays consistent at 9 temp today was 78

      We do water changes every week, and we clean filters every other week. The pond is 5 feet deep and crystal clear, you can see to the bottom of it.


      because we take such good care of the pond, I have been at wits end on getting these fish back healthy...

      So we did blood and cultures (see attached) and we have Gram Negative Bacilli growing and we have Aeromonas growing.

      Fortunately my vet knows me and the care I give the pets, and fully agrees that the flood water brought it in, weakened their immune systems, and then all the rebuilding, ect stressed them out..hence why we have sick kois.

      Plan of action - Picking up injections for Blinkie and Fred - Amikacin - Was on the phone with her so little confused on treatment of this, will find out when we pick up the injections.

      Added some Aqua MedZyme to the pond.


      Vet wants me to get some neomycin sulfate and DIP all the fish. Can only find that http://www.kodamakoisupply.com/neomycin-sulfate-powder/ here and NO instructions on how to use it. Anyone know? How much do I buy? Do i dip them in 10 gallons? DO i add it to the pond?

      Vet wants the pond scrubbed down again how do I do this? my QT is only 500 gallons add 15 fish in it and I think I am looking for trouble. I dunno. Help on this?

      How often should I do water changes? We are on well water and currently do it every sunday.

      Help on this please?

      EDITED Can someone help me upload the culture report it is a PDF

    2. #2
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by firerunner View Post
      EDITED Can someone help me upload the culture report it is a PDF
      If you can email the .pdf file to me I can post it:

      steve@icu2collectibles.com
      --Steve
      Find more about Weather in Poulsbo, WA

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    3. #3
      firerunner is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      If you can email the .pdf file to me I can post it:

      steve@icu2collectibles.com

      Ok emailed it

    4. #4
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by firerunner View Post
      Ok emailed it
      Attached Images Attached Images
      --Steve
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      firerunner is offline Junior Member
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      Got the new injectionable meds

      Each fish gets 3 shots every 48 hours - Amikacin

      I bought 100 grams of the Neomycin Sulfate Powder to dip everyone. No idea how this works.

      How often can I do a water change?

    6. #6
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by firerunner View Post
      Got the new injectionable meds

      Each fish gets 3 shots every 48 hours - Amikacin

      I bought 100 grams of the Neomycin Sulfate Powder to dip everyone. No idea how this works.

      How often can I do a water change?
      Since the vet suggested it I'd think they'd be your best resource on how much should be mixed in a dip and how long
      they should remain in it. When I've done dips with BGDT I just place them in tub with about 15 gallons of water
      and lots of air and I net it so they can't jump. With BGDT the stay for an hour and then back in the pond.

      Since no treatments are going in the pond itself I'd say you can change the water like normal.
      --Steve
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    7. #7
      firerunner is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Since the vet suggested it I'd think they'd be your best resource on how much should be mixed in a dip and how long
      they should remain in it. When I've done dips with BGDT I just place them in tub with about 15 gallons of water
      and lots of air and I net it so they can't jump. With BGDT the stay for an hour and then back in the pond.

      Since no treatments are going in the pond itself I'd say you can change the water like normal.


      Steve - I am worried about the bacteria being in the pond so should i do more frequent water changes? Or stick to our weekly water change? What is BGDT?

    8. #8
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by firerunner View Post
      Steve - I am worried about the bacteria being in the pond so should i do more frequent water changes? Or stick to our weekly water change? What is BGDT?
      You won't be able to rid the pond of bacteria with water changes so I'd just keep your normal schedule.

      Sorry, BGDT is for bacterial gill disease... I was just using it as an example of how I dipped fish as opposed
      to treating the whole pond like the vet instructed.

      I'd ask the vet for instructions as far as the "scrub down" too. I think the fish would be okay in 500 gallons as long
      as you could get the job done in a day. But with the scrub down you should prepare to cycle the pond like
      brand new. I'd have Prime or Safe on hand to deal with ammonia spikes and salt to treat nitrite if needed.
      I have Vikron Aquatic which is a good disinfectant so if you'd like to try some just email or pm me.
      --Steve
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    9. #9
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      The filters rely on bacteria and there is nothing you can do to get rid of the bacteria in a pond. You can do a major water change which will reduce the bacteria that are free swimming, but I would be reluctant to scrub the pond and kill all bacteria. You could also use Potassium Permanganate at 2ppm to kill some of the bacteria without killing all of the bacteria that the filter relies on. The neomycin sulfate is a potent antibacterial/antibiotic that should not be used in the pond. It is one of the three antibiotics in Tricide Neo which needs to be rinsed from the fish following a soak to keep from killing the filters. The dip instructions should come from the vet. Time and concentration.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by firerunner View Post
      Ok emailed it
      Firerunner,
      Thanks for the wound culture results. I've never seen anything like this.
      I find it amazing what vet/lab can do to actually diagnosis the problem in fish. It's very rare of cases that come up with an actual diagnosis (positive identification). It's also amazing (at the same time pretty scary) how certain infections can be resistant to more than half the antibiotic armamentarium.

      Just curious too how your koi are currently acting. Are they eating, swimming, schooling, isolating, breathing fast?
      Wondering if the infection has gone systemic. Are the blood cultures still pending?

      Also do you have a bottom drain?

      Good calls!
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      Firerunner,
      Thanks for the wound culture results. I've never seen anything like this.
      I find it amazing what vet/lab can do to actually diagnosis the problem in fish. It's very rare of cases that come up with an actual diagnosis (positive identification). It's also amazing (at the same time pretty scary) how certain infections can be resistant to more than half the antibiotic armamentarium.

      Just curious too how your koi are currently acting. Are they eating, swimming, schooling, isolating, breathing fast?
      Wondering if the infection has gone systemic. Are the blood cultures still pending?

      Also do you have a bottom drain?

      Good calls!
      Good Morning!

      I will try to get the blood results also This has been a learning experience. Cost for all this is now over 500.00

      Blinkie and Fred act fine, like I said these are just small ulcers, no big holes or anything, but the moment I stop the meds (have done debride, debride medicated food, Ulcer RX (no longer available on market but was in my koi kit) sedated them and done the peroxide, iodine, liquid band aid routine, baytril..twice etc) , they get red and inflamed , us being diligent is the only reason they are not gaping open wounds or even dead. This has been 10 months of this battle. I sure hope this med works!

      And no bottom drain If we knew then, what we know now, we would have done things alot different with the pond. We are in the country, surround by acres of woods, my first pond attempt 16 or so years ago, something came out of the woods and ate all the baby kois. Found a gator in the pond once, fun fun. After the gator we closed it all in and put a bamboo roof on, this meant plants do not grow great, first summer with the bamboo roof a critter found a way in and had dinner on my kois again. Now it has a real roof with sunlights, hardware wire, and screen.

      Anyways will try and get pics this morning they are getting their first injection of the new med.

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      The filters rely on bacteria and there is nothing you can do to get rid of the bacteria in a pond. You can do a major water change which will reduce the bacteria that are free swimming, but I would be reluctant to scrub the pond and kill all bacteria. You could also use Potassium Permanganate at 2ppm to kill some of the bacteria without killing all of the bacteria that the filter relies on. The neomycin sulfate is a potent antibacterial/antibiotic that should not be used in the pond. It is one of the three antibiotics in Tricide Neo which needs to be rinsed from the fish following a soak to keep from killing the filters. The dip instructions should come from the vet. Time and concentration.
      As soon as the neomycin comes in I will be calling the vet again for further instructions on it. I expedited it so I hope it is here..friday.

    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      The filters rely on bacteria and there is nothing you can do to get rid of the bacteria in a pond. You can do a major water change which will reduce the bacteria that are free swimming, but I would be reluctant to scrub the pond and kill all bacteria. You could also use Potassium Permanganate at 2ppm to kill some of the bacteria without killing all of the bacteria that the filter relies on. The neomycin sulfate is a potent antibacterial/antibiotic that should not be used in the pond. It is one of the three antibiotics in Tricide Neo which needs to be rinsed from the fish following a soak to keep from killing the filters. The dip instructions should come from the vet. Time and concentration.
      Yes this we know

      Our vet believes the flood brought this in (11 days before the water receded and we could start working on the pond)

      Our plan is this - we have a river, that runs to a smaller pond, we wanted to drain it, clean the sides of it, and the bottom and then refill this with water from the main pond. Corrall all the fish into the river smaller pond and repeat on the main pond, cleaning the bottom etc. Do you think this would work or should I do the Potassium Permangante?

      I have never used Potassium Permangante, so how much would I use in the pond? 2ppm is a small measurement right?

    14. #14
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      While waiting for instructions for what the vet means by a "scrub down" I think it would be of benefit to vacuum the bottom of your pond. Aeromonas feed on nutrients, faeces, shed mucus, and suspended solids that eventually make it the bottom. Sometimes the bacterial count multiply more that what the koi's immune system can fend off, more than what your routine water changes can take out, and your filters ability to filter out pathogens. If your filter is packed with beneficial bacteria, it should be able to filter out pathogens through retention and competition. Thus the delay in healing imo. I would drastically cut back on feeding if you have not already and sneak in some extra water changes. Also I think your pond expert (in the previous thread) alluded to this, and that is your filter should have some sort of drain where during the cleaning of you filter, sludge should not by any means make it into the pond during or after cleaning. A good way for example is to divert the water from the filter outlet outside the pond (pump is still running), clean the filters (while the water is being diverted), put the filters back, wait for the water being diverted to clear. Once clear, divert the water back to the pond. All along the pump is still running.
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      firerunner is offline Junior Member
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      God I love our vet! Just got off the phone with her, she wants as much of the bottom cleaned out as possible, the waterfall completely cleaned 100%, the pumps 100% cleaned, the filters 100% cleaned (which we already did.)
      and if we can wipe down the sides then she would be happy. She stated like someone else said, you will never get rid of the bacteria in the pond, but we can minimize it so it has no ill health effects on my koi. Her main concern is the crap in the bottom that came in with the flood and has been growing there for months.

      I asked her about the PP and she said she was calling someone on it and would get back to me


      I told her how we planned to do it and she thinks that is perfect!

      Also she said call her when the neomycin sulfate comes in and we will do a plan of action.

      I did inject blinkie and fred this morning (i do not need to sedate them -- to inject we actually net them, I have a felt blanket we soak in their pond, we put them in the river part use the wet blanket to sorta keep them still and POOF injection done and away they go) and with the waterfall off I can see the rest of the kois very vry well and everyone else looks greats no signs of ulcers..

      Watch for pictures throughout the day !


      back out i go

    16. #16
      icu2's Avatar
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      I'd keep her number handy! It's great to have a good vet.

      There's a calculator for Potassium Permanganate (PP) up at the top of the forum under "Koi Calculators":

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/koicalcs.php?do=calcpp

      I'm assuming you're estimating your pond volume because you said 5-6000 gallons, and at low doses like 2 ppm
      it's not as critical to know your volume exactly... but if you ever have to dose higher you should get a better idea
      of exactly how much water you have. PP is an oxidizer and can kill fish quickly if it's improperly dosed. Since you
      are estimating the pond volume I'd probably start on the low side of your guesstimate when dosing... it will turn
      the water a bright purple and slowly change to a nasty brown color. If it makes this color change in less than a few
      hours you can dose again at the same 2 ppm. It's always best to do 2 small doses rather than one larger one. The
      color should clear in 24 hours or so but if it doesn't, a qt. of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 1000 gallons will clear the
      water.
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    17. #17
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      Just to update

      Blinkie and Fred Look great, one more injection on Monday and they are done. Now the big thing is to make sure it doesnt come back! Since the flood, I could get them looking great but couple weeks after stopping the meds the ulcers came back. Mine you baytril was the wrong med for the bacteria but sheesh!

      Vet has me feeding the entire pond medicated food with the neomycin sulfate. (2 weeks on this)

      Pond has been scrubbed down. bottom vacuumed clean, waterfall done, pumps etc all clean. We basically Moved them from one end to the other allowing us access to the pond without really stressing them out and without draining all the pond water.

      Pond has been treated with Prime and now Koizyme. I am checking my numbers daily and everything is spot on!

      I wanted to get pics but we were so busy, we had the people from the Pond place helping us, and it was just insane.

      Total cost for ALL this (vet cultures meds pond treatments hiring help etc) little over 1000.00 but worth every penny if it clears up blinkie and fred!!

      hopefully i will come back in a month and say everyone is healthy!!

    18. #18
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      I was gona say your pond looks veryyyyy dirty. Dunno how you can say its crystal clear. U need bottom drains and jets aka flow.

      Your talking to a "vet" and they are saying they have to get back to you when you ask a question? Better find a new vet.
      Last edited by Hiero; 09-30-2018 at 01:53 PM.

    19. #19
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hiero View Post
      Your talking to a "vet" and they are saying they have to get back to you when you ask a question? Better find a new vet.
      When I call my "vet" (Dr. Adams) I don't get to talk to him because I'm guessing he's with another patient
      and not anxiously sitting waiting for my call. It's hard enough finding a vet that will see a koi and I think it's unrealistic
      to expect them to personally answer me every time I have a question.

      --Steve
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    20. #20
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      Do you have a pond vacuum (not just a shop vac)? One of those helps immensely when trying to keep your pond clean. I have not vacuumed yet this year, because my koi had babies, and I am afraid of sucking them up! I am going to wait until they're a little bit bigger and then I'll start slowly moving it across the bottom.

      I just want to say I'm very impressed that you took the time and the money to get Fred and Blinkie better, not a lot of owners do their due diligence like that. I'm also glad you have a vet who knows koi, and how to take sensitivity cultures and get you the right antibiotic for your fish!! Had you used any of the other antibiotics that have the "R" next to it, they would not have worked and you would've been wasting valuable time and money.

      Also, when you have to re-order your dechlorinator, I would recommend SAFE, over the Prime. It is the same product, but it is a heck of a lot cheaper in the powdered form. You can get it fairly cheaply from Amazon; I have a 2000 gallon pond and I buy the 4 kg size and it lasts me about two years. I also have aquariums so I use it there too, just less, obviously. 2T treats my entire pond for a water change; I usually use more, just to control any ammonia, nitrate, and NitrIte issues that may be there during a water change.

      Keep us posted on Fred and Blinkie's progress!

      Nancy


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