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    Thread: Fishless pond cycling with ammonia question

    1. #1
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      Fishless pond cycling with ammonia question

      Hello everyone,

      I have been trying to cycle the pond with ammonia for around 4 weeks now. I first added enough ammonia to get it to around 5 ppm. Then every time it dropped to 1 or 0 I would add more until its around 5ppm. I have a ton of Nitrites and Nitrates (off the chart) but I added the ammonia a few days ago and it has not dropped like it has been. Do you think it has stalled or is about to complete the cycle soon?

      Thank you

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      Quote Originally Posted by headman View Post
      Hello everyone,

      I have been trying to cycle the pond with ammonia for around 4 weeks now. I first added enough ammonia to get it to around 5 ppm. Then every time it dropped to 1 or 0 I would add more until its around 5ppm. I have a ton of Nitrites and Nitrates (off the chart) but I added the ammonia a few days ago and it has not dropped like it has been. Do you think it has stalled or is about to complete the cycle soon?

      Thank you
      I think you should elaborate on your filtration set up so the folks can offer assistance.

    3. #3
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      If you can’t wait just add a koi
      It could takes 6-8 weeks
      When I jump start with seeded media, the new crowded pond it took 29 days (nitrite vanished)
      So If no nitrite is detected I think it is completed
      Ammonia will depend on how strong/more bio you got for the system
      Last edited by OCkoiFan; 09-22-2018 at 12:27 AM.
      M.Nguyen


    4. #4
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      To me it sounds like you have not done any water changes in a while. Loading the water with ammonia to the levels you have is toxic to most living things and may be too much for the bugs in your filter. You may have killed them all off. You may have to start over and start with a big water change and do another in a few days. We need to know the volume of your pond and your filtration and water movement. This will let us know if you have inherent problems. The best way to seed a pond is to get a suicide squad of 1 medium size fish per 500 gallons. Let these fish do the dirty work and once you have a balanced habitat add more koi until you are at the 200 to 250 gallons per fish. If the original suicide squad survived the ordeal you can sell them off.
      Need more Koi

    5. #5
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      No doubt you've already cycled because you have nitrates. What you are experiencing is a typical Ph crash where you ran out of alkalinity during the process of nitrification. This loss occurs through the use of alkalinity as a carbon source by nitrifying bacteria and the destruction of alkalinity by the production of hydrogen ions (H+). The drop in ph is inhibitory because enzymatic processes of nitrifiers are depended of specific ph ranges and their adaptations to ph change. Thus when nitrification comes to a grind, ammonia or nitrite or both accumulate. Simple solution is to add a ton of baking soda for the the bacteria's carbon source and as a buffer. Add a ton or monitor to keep kh >100mg/L.

      Another way to look at it is that proper bacterial nutrition need carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorus in approximately a ratio of 100:10:1 which is also the approximate make up of the cell. You ran out of pieces, your process in said to be 'nutrient limited' and bacterial reproduction stops; bacteria gets stressed.
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    6. #6
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      I think it's possible to have nitrates and not fully cycled... but I agree that it could be a KH issue. I don't
      know that the OP has measured the pH to verify there's been a "crash" but the fact that the bio is having
      a hard time converting the ammonia that it once could handle would tell me I need to check the KH level.

      Headman, here's a nice chart that shows what a typical cycle might look like and the time frame involved:

      Name:  nitrification cycle.jpg
Views: 509
Size:  58.0 KB

      I've used ammonium chloride dozens of times to cycle my QT and I'm not a big fan of adding fish to cycle.
      You can inadvertently add parasites that might just complicate things even more.
      --Steve



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      My Nitrates are not as high as the Nitrites but they are off the chart. It’s been about a month or so we have been trying to cycle it. I was thinking it’s close to the end since the Nitrates showed up about 2 weeks ago but all of a sudden last week the Ammonia seems to not drop back down. I thought the Nirates had to build up high enough to over take the Nitrites? Someone asked about water changes... I wasn’t aware I needed to do one while trying to cycle. I went off directions from an aquarium site. I figured it would be about the same as a pond. I did soak my media in the fish temporary tank and added it to the big pond and barrels. Our Koi are only a few months old (7 of them) Another question I have is will the small Koi keep the pond cycled since the ammonia levels will be very low because the fish are so small compared to the 4700 gallon pond size. Thank you all for the help

    8. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by headman View Post
      Hello everyone,

      I have been trying to cycle the pond with ammonia for around 4 weeks now. I first added enough ammonia to get it to around 5 ppm. Then every time it dropped to 1 or 0 I would add more until its around 5ppm. I have a ton of Nitrites and Nitrates (off the chart) but I added the ammonia a few days ago and it has not dropped like it has been. Do you think it has stalled or is about to complete the cycle soon?

      Thank you
      Sorry you got me confused. "Off the chart" means off these charts? Nitrate 160+ and Nitrite 5+?:

      Name:  IMG_8076.JPG
Views: 420
Size:  79.4 KB

      Please provide recent and current values for nitrate, nitrite, ammonia, ph, kh, and temperature for the pond.
      Nitrate, nitrite, ph, kh values for source (tap) water would also be very useful.
      Use high range ph kit for ph.
      Last edited by KoiRun; 09-22-2018 at 03:14 PM.
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      Yes ... off of the measurement charts

      I use the liquid for the ammonia and PH.

      What the readings are now:

      PH- 7 ppm - The strip said it was 6.5 but the wide liquid PH said 7ppm
      KH- 40 ppm
      GH- 180 ppm
      Nitrate - over 200 ppm
      Nitrite - over 10 ppm
      Attached Images Attached Images  
      Last edited by headman; 09-22-2018 at 11:51 PM.

    10. #10
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      Sorry do you have fish in the pond now?
      What is your ammonia level?
      What do you have in hand terms of dechlor/binder?
      I've used test strips only has a backup/verification, but I find the liquid API test kits are far more accurate especially when reading nitrate.
      When reading ph make sure you are using the high range one, and KH the liquid API type:
      Name:  Screen Shot 2018-09-22 at 5.24.20 PM.png
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      Name:  Screen Shot 2018-09-22 at 5.25.26 PM.png
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      It's sounding like you've crashed your ph because you've used up all your alkalinity. Please check you source water ph and KH (with the strip test you have at present).
      Last edited by KoiRun; 09-22-2018 at 05:54 PM.
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      No fish in the big pond ... they are in a temporary tank until the pond is completed. We have an API pond master test kit - I’ll have to buy the high PH and a KH in liquid form.

      Yeah the water from the tap has KH of 120 - Nitrates 40 and Nitrites 3

      So if it did crash what do I do? Do i empty it and start over ?

      Thank you ��
      Last edited by headman; 09-22-2018 at 05:59 PM.

    12. #12
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      Well it make it much easier that you don't have fish in the pond at present.
      No need to empty and start over.
      From experience I would add a pound (or a box) of baking soda per 1000G every 2-3 days to start. Keep checking parameters everyday until kh is at 150-200 range (then stop adding baking soda), nitrites and ammonia goes to zero.
      There is an alkalinity calculator here but I have no experience using it. I believe every pond is different and the rate of how much alkalinity you pond will use up will depend of many factors. That is why you need to check KH frequently in order "to know" how your pond is behaving.

      This is what to use (I get from costco in bulk):
      Name:  Screen Shot 2018-04-07 at 7.57.10 PM.png
Views: 406
Size:  268.1 KB

      While you are ordering all API test kits (online I assume), might as well order this:
      Name:  Screen Shot 2018-09-22 at 6.13.51 PM.png
Views: 402
Size:  291.9 KB
      Last edited by KoiRun; 09-22-2018 at 07:20 PM. Reason: range added
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    13. #13
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      Your KH should be closer to 120 ppm or more.
      Here's a calculator to help with how much baking soda to add:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/koicalcs.php?do=calckh

      I'd add it in about 1/4 of the total required at a time and then monitor to see the effect with the test kits.
      --Steve



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    14. #14
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      You can get 5 lb bags of BS at Costco I get two and they last about a month each.
      Need more Koi

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      headman is offline Senior Member
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      It says about a pound of BS. So when the KH hits around 120 and then Nitrite & Ammonia hits zero ... will I have to begin the fishless cycle over again with the ammonia?

    16. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      Well it make it much easier that you don't have fish in the pond at present.
      No need to empty and start over.
      From experience I would add a pound (or a box) of baking soda per 1000G every 2-3 days to start. Keep checking parameters everyday until kh is at 150-200 range (then stop adding baking soda), nitrites and ammonia goes to zero.
      There is an alkalinity calculator here but I have no experience using it. I believe every pond is different and the rate of how much alkalinity you pond will use up will depend of many factors. That is why you need to check KH frequently in order "to know" how your pond is behaving.

      This is what to use (I get from costco in bulk):
      Name:  Screen Shot 2018-04-07 at 7.57.10 PM.png
Views: 406
Size:  268.1 KB

      While you are ordering all API test kits (online I assume), might as well order this:
      Name:  Screen Shot 2018-09-22 at 6.13.51 PM.png
Views: 402
Size:  291.9 KB
      Thanks ... I have a thing of Safe as well as a 4 pound box of BS �� Thank you for the help ��

    17. #17
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by headman View Post
      It says about a pound of BS. So when the KH hits around 120 and then Nitrite & Ammonia hits zero ... will I have to begin the fishless cycle over again with the ammonia?
      No, it's probably just a bit of a set back. But the KH is not something you can get to a number and ignore...
      your bio filter will use KH constantly as the nitrification process works. You'll need to monitor that KH along
      with the ammonia and nitrite to know how things are progressing.
      --Steve



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      Quote Originally Posted by headman View Post
      Yes ... off of the measurement charts

      I use the liquid for the ammonia and PH.

      What the readings are now:

      PH- 7 ppm - The strip said it was 6.5 but the wide liquid PH said 7ppm
      KH- 40 ppm
      GH- 180 ppm
      Nitrite- over 200 ppm
      Nitrate- over 10 ppm
      NO2 is nitrite and NO3 is nitrate.
      So you meant
      Nitrite is over 10ppm
      Nitrate is over 200 ppm
      I just want to make sure we are all on the same page going forward.
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    19. #19
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      So what is the optimal numbers when a pond is cycled?
      Ammo near 0
      Nitrite 0
      Nitrate 1ppm plus —-20ppm possible?
      Assume KH value is over 100 for PH to stablize 7.8-8.3...
      Shoot for these numbers Shall we ?
      M.Nguyen


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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      NO2 is nitrite and NO3 is nitrate.
      So you meant
      Nitrite is over 10ppm
      Nitrate is over 200 ppm
      I just want to make sure we are all on the same page going forward.
      Thanks for the noticing and pointing it out ����

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