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  • Results 1 to 8 of 8

    Thread: Xypex, Acrylic, and Quikwall SBC (Surface Bonding Cement)

    1. #1
      -Matt- is offline Junior Member
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      Xypex, Acrylic, and Quikwall SBC (Surface Bonding Cement)

      This is part me sharing what I have learned and part asking for people's experience.

      #1 Has anyone who has used Xypex noticed if it causes visible crystalization or discoloration of any sort on the surface of the treated cement?

      I am resurfacing a 120 sq ft pond and 1000 sq ft swimming pool and it is important for both but mostly the white pool.

      #2 Who has combined Xypex with liquid or dry acrylic polymers?

      I have had 3 Xypex sales reps say it is fine for use with polymers and two support people tell me it should not be used with polymers. Yet Xypex itself sells their own version! Talk about confusing. I plan on applying Xypex concentrate to the old concrete shells for both the pond and the pool, the going over that with my own mix of portland cement, pozzolans, a liquid acrylic or other integraly mixed polymer (*edited out my orignal recommendation for Acry-Lok as it is a very normal 22% percent solids), along with Xypex C-1000 NF (no fines.. aka sand). The NF version I bought online from a redimix company called Vitale-Robinson in 7 lb increments ($40 each + shipping, I mention this because someone in another thread said they could only buy Xypex in 60 lb pails, that is not the case and I see different people are selling the concentrate on Amazon and ebay both. I personally had some difficulty finding it early on so FYI. You can also ask Xypex for your local distributors. I bought the comcentrate locally and convinced them to sell to me at their contractor price since it was available online cheaper. As far as using xypex with acrylic polymers, I can see how it might hinder the xypex in terms of it's ability to form crystals and may lock much of it down, however I seriously doubt that acrylic prevents it from functioning long term. Someone has called it a "bond breaker" in an old thread and I do not think that is justified. I think it just physically gets in the way and slows it down, reduces it's action somewhat. Each product probably still contributes to the longterm durability of the concrete or cementious coating.

      3) I purchased Quikwall SBC and Quikrete Heavy Duty Masonry coating and now plan on returning both. I encourage others to pass on SBC and the HD Masonry Coating for these reasons. 1) Quickrete does not publish what it's dampproofing ingredient(s) are. (I ended the sentence with "are" painfully, though I think it is technically acceptable.) 2) Their support agents don't know anything more about the ingredients than what is printed on the TDS and SDS. They claim the dampproofing ingredient is "proprietary". 3) Traditionally, SBC coatings are "waterproofed" with calcium stearate, a fatty acid that is said not to stand the test of time. I have read opinions stating it lasts for a few years at best and is subject to biodegration. Quikrete is inconsistent in it's documentation as to whether these products are dampproofers or waterproofers, plus they were obviously not originally designed specifically for constant, long term immersion purposes.

      I'm returning mine because I learned about calcium stearate and am betting quikrete uses it or a similar chemical since it is they are such old products and their being redesigned is not mentioned anywhere. I don't mean to concern those who have used SBC, I sure it will be fine for them, however it seems I and others can save r by mixing cement and sand and adding xypex or the other ingredients previously mentioned. If anyone wonders what pozzolans I'm using those would be 15% Metamax Metakaolin and 5% Silica Fume. They are really not needed for a pond but I am practicing on the pond before I do the pool. They both lower porosity and increase the strength and durability of the cement similar to what Xypex does. And yes, Xypex can be used with pozzolans.


      Thoughts? Questions, comments, snyde remarks?

      Matt
      Last edited by -Matt-; 09-25-2018 at 03:28 AM.

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    2. #2
      CALHOUN is offline Senior Member
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      I used xypex in my mix for my pond and also used there product called megamix for the coating over the block walls. I spoke to a xypex engineer on the phone and he recommended there aycrlic addative be added to my mega mix. I decided not to use it, if I remember it would help with adhesion and curring. I have had no issues with the cement poured or the wall coating. All of it was dyed black and I see nothing the forming on the surface, would be hard to see now with a coat of algae. I would highly recommended the megamix, it was really good stuff!

    3. #3
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is offline Administrator ~ WWKC President
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      Welcome Matt and thanks for joining Koiphen!

      I have used Xypex and SBC but you obviously know more about them than I do. I can't pronounce about half the
      words you used, much less know what they are. But the crystallization/coloration question is sort of hard only because
      I used a black dye in the Concentrate when coating the interior. As it dried it did give a chalkish look to the coating but
      it seemed to disappear when water was added. If the pool was colored I don't think you'd see any discoloration but can't
      really guarantee anything.
      I used SBC for a scratch coat to smooth out the interior because I made my shell from blocks. I added an acrylic bond agent
      to the SBC that I later was told not to do. I'm not sure if that is a polymer or not, but fwiw I haven't seen any adverse effects
      from using it but also haven't seen anything positive either... I just added it because I had done the same when using it on my
      filter pit that was made from dry stacked blocks.
      Also fwiw, using the Concentrate and then C-1000 on top is kind of backwards from how I applied mine, as I added the Admix in
      the concrete that I filled the CMU's with and then coated the interior with the Concentrate. The other stuff you're adding to the C-1000 is
      over my head. I just tried to do whatever my Xypex rep said... but I only talked to my regional distributor so didn't get mixed messages
      like you've had.

      That's great to hear about it being offered on eBay and Amazon... I haven't looked for it since I finished my pond.
      I'll throw a link on here in case someone is interested in the smaller 7# bags:

      https://www.vitale-robinson.com/prod...r-soluble-bag/

      I hope you'll share pictures of the project! Sounds like it'd be great information and I'd love to see how your process works out.
      Enjoy the forum!
      --Steve



      Koiphen 2021 Koi Person of the Year!

    4. #4
      lukef's Avatar
      lukef is offline king of the lilliputians
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      Matt, I learned some stuff from your posts.
      I think I was the first to use Xypex on a koi pond, and man I really had to research it through "Potable water containers" before I decided to stucco the inside of my koi pond with it. I did notice for a few years that crystals would form on the glass windows inside the pond. No source was every proven.
      In here somewhere are the stucco crew applying it. http://winterholerct.net/lakeluke/
      Do have one leak...where I put in the last concrete block,,it has been about 10 years..or more?
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    5. #5
      -Matt- is offline Junior Member
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      Thanks Steve and Luke. I really appreciate the feedback on the Xypex crystalization, that gives me some confidence in using it with the white pool plaster and colored pond plaster. Steve that makes sense about the acrylic (yes you're right it is a polymer), how would you know if it helped or not but hey nothing bad has happened and I'd wager it did help. Even if Xypex's reactions are slowed down or reduced it if it gets there slow or fast who cares and it is a negligible % addition. I will have to humbly edit out my recommendation for Acry-lok based on a high solids count unfortunately.

      I wrote W.R. Meadows asking how it was possible for them to recommend using only 1-1.5 gallons with a 5 gallon bucket of cement and sand (1:2 ratio) for a bonding slurry since the Safety Data Sheet said it was around 50% solids. (I learned portland cement requires .38 water ratio minimum for complete hydration. Apparently less, I read about .23, is consumed but apparently that number does not afford enough movement room for the particles to get where they need to go so more is needed, who knew?) They wrote back that the SDS was incorrect and it is actually 22% solids. I was so dissapointed as I have struggled to find a high solids polymer. (Concrete countertop shops online like Fishstone and Concrete Countertop Institute sell 50% solids acrylic for 130 for 5 gallons but they are nowhere near Southern California.) It's not a matter of quality, I like the Quikrete Acrylic, I had purchased some to test out, it's just that buying enough liquid acrylic to do a pool and pond and hit at least 5% polymer content for the pool plaster longevity is twice as expensive then.

      I did contact Wacker polymers and they have been willing to sell me dry polymers in 55 lb bags ($250 minimum order, I think 110 lbs would be about 300 or so but no quote yet). This may all be more info than you guys care to know about polymers but maybe someone will be able to use this info. It ends up being much more economical (as long as shipping doesn't kill that). They suggested a sytrene acrylic copolymer and one made from vinyl acetate ethylene. Apparently pebble pool manufacturers buy those from them. They offered to send me samples so we'll see! I just asked that they check on the UV stability since I will not have pebble aggregate covering 95% of the surface area like the pebbletec type pools.

      Luke that is quite a thread and pond you have there and the glass windows are awesome! You must have gotten a lot of enjoyment out of them for sure. It is nice to hear from people who can relate to how much work it is to research things.

      I have had to be especially neurotic about the pool since it won't be covered in algae and pools are prone to discoloration with the chlorine and all the acid and all. The pond is small though 120 sq ft surface area, about 550 gallons, and easier to clean so I wanted to do a colorful blue cement finish. Might be a waste of time but I think a nylon pool brush on a pole will clean it quickly. I am coming from the aquarium hobby though and never had a pond before. It'll be for fancy goldfish or shubunkins maybe as it is sadly too small for koi I think.
      Last edited by -Matt-; 09-25-2018 at 03:31 AM.

    6. #6
      scott_cyan is offline Member
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      I also used xypex on blocks scratch coated with a 1.0.3 mortar mix with Xypex added to it the skimmed finished with the same mix with xypex and black dye added , it turned out more af a dark grey colour , so I just painted the area above the water line with some liquid rubber to make it look black ,

    7. #7
      Zac Penn is offline Supporting Member
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      I used SBC on a MOSTLY dry stacked QT tank over 5 years ago and it has held up great. I mixed the Admix-2000 into the SBC and then stucco coated the dry stacked blocks with it to create the waterproofing. Like Steve said when the walls were curing you could see a white chalky surface on the walls, but it went away when the pond was filled. The only time you would notice it in your application would be when the pool was empty. Here is my thread on the build...
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...uarantine-Tank
      Zac Penn.... Please sign-up for our MAILING LIST HERE
      904-294-2231
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    8. #8
      lukef's Avatar
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      I am not following why you want some plastic crap in your cement if you are going to be using xypex? Seriously, if you are just adding xypex to waterproof the plaster/concrete then the polymer stuff sounds counterproductive. And whatever color the pond is before adding fish you can not maintain that color..it will go to any one of a number of colors in the "Dark-brown/green range" you can't keep it blue below the water line. It would be best to go with a real natural dark color above water level
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

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