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  • Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
    Results 41 to 57 of 57

    Thread: Concrete Collar - Pictures please!

    1. #41
      tbullard is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by CALHOUN View Post
      My original pond did not have a concrete collar like what is being talked about now. I still believe the main problem with my original pond was I cut the walls straight down 3’ and then added very heavy stones. Most of them are 1000 plus pounds. I want to add my soil, once down 6-8” is blue and gray clay, the pick ax kind. This is why I though no way it would move. The pond survived a couple years and then a bad winter with very cold temp happened. When the frost came out of the ground the sides just turned to mush and everything started sliding into the pond. The ice on the pond actually held some of the stones from going in, which gave me time to pull them back. If I would have just done a collar on my newest pond, I would have made sure I was below the frost line!
      It looks like you used a mix of methods but this is the area I was referring to and is the basic concept and there is failure.

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    2. #42
      tbullard is offline Senior Member
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      Pickerel asked for proof with pictures that it can happen and he got them. Not saying plenty of people don't have this style build and haven't experienced a failure yet but they are out there.

      There is a fairy tale new builders should read when deciding on a build method call The Three Little Pigs. Check it out if you haven't heard of it.

      Which house would you pick?

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    3. #43
      CALHOUN is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by tbullard View Post
      It looks like you used a mix of methods but this is the area I was referring to and is the basic concept and there is failure.

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      I agree, a mixed of methods lol and boy did I get a mix of results! Pretty much from the filtration to the pond design, it all sucked! Really glad I went the extra mile this time!

    4. #44
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      Quote Originally Posted by tbullard View Post
      Pickerel asked for proof with pictures that it can happen and he got them. Not saying plenty of people don't have this style build and haven't experienced a failure yet but they are out there.

      There is a fairy tale new builders should read when deciding on a build method call The Three Little Pigs. Check it out if you haven't heard of it.

      Which house would you pick?

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      I’d pick the one that met my budget and expectations for longevity. I’ve always been dissappinted there wasn’t a 4th pig who had a house made of graphene .

    5. #45
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      Thank you for the links tbullard. I am still in the process of going through each thread. So far it looks like only one of them has an actual rebar-reinforced collar going around the entire perimeter. I am very surprised that this could happen and grateful for your post. A couple of extenuating circumstances are worth pointing out: 1. extremely deep frost line that caused the earth to turn to mush (I won't have that here in SC) 2. The hole was left uncovered for a long period of time. I think I can learn from that and plan my excavation accordingly.

      From what I have learned here, I definitely won't do vertical walls, and I thank you for that. I think I will reach some compromise between vertical and the shallow angle suggested in post #23. My own extenuating circumstance is that I have a wife of 44 years who doesn't want a concrete "swimming pool" in the front yard. My current plan is already stretching her imagination way beyond her comfort level.
      Last edited by pickerel; 09-23-2018 at 10:13 AM.

    6. #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by livinzlife View Post
      I’d pick the one that met my budget and expectations for longevity. I’ve always been dissappinted there wasn’t a 4th pig who had a house made of graphene .
      Why would you build a house from Graphene? You have mentioned carbon fiber and now graphine. Those products are great and there advantage is that they are lightweight. There is no need for that in a pond build. Steel reinforced concrete is the gold standard.

      This will be a controversial comment but if budget is limiting the fundamental structure of your koi pond then maybe a koi pond isn't in your budget.

    7. #47
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      Quote Originally Posted by pickerel View Post
      Thank you for the links tbullard. I am still in the process of going through each thread. So far it looks like only one of them has an actual rebar-reinforced collar going around the entire perimeter. I am very surprised that this could happen and grateful for your post. A couple of extenuating circumstances are worth pointing out: 1. extremely deep frost line that caused the earth to turn to mush (I won't have that here in SC) 2. The hole was left uncovered for a long period of time. I think I can learn from that and plan my excavation accordingly.

      From what I have learned here, I definitely won't do vertical walls, and I thank you for that. I think I will reach some compromise between vertical and the shallow angle suggested in post #23. My own extenuating circumstance is that I have a wife of 44 years who doesn't want a concrete "swimming pool" in the front yard. My current plan is already stretching her imagination way beyond her comfort level.
      This debate has been going on for a while. Here is a good read from 2008! Pay special attention to Boggen's post on the matter. https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...d-edge-of-pond



      I think one thing that is skewing this discussion is What is a pond collar? To me a collar is simply a concrete ring located at ground level surrounding the edge of a pond. Below that the pond should be dug with appropriate slopes to prevent caving of the pond walls. The collar is simply to reinforce the pond edge so that coping rocks have a stable foundation.

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      What we are seeing more of is a footer located halfway down the hole which is supporting a wall of concrete. I just cant figure out why a builder wouldn't simply locate this footer just a few feet lower at the bottom of the pond so that it is on solid ground and twice the width of the wall stacked on top of it. The cost of the footer isn't going to change so the only additional cost would be a couple extra rows of block and you would have a solid concrete wall.

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    8. #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by tbullard View Post
      Why would you build a house from Graphene? You have mentioned carbon fiber and now graphine. Those products are great and there advantage is that they are lightweight. There is no need for that in a pond build. Steel reinforced concrete is the gold standard.

      This will be a controversial comment but if budget is limiting the fundamental structure of your koi pond then maybe a koi pond isn't in your budget.
      Wooosh, missed the point but thanks for your evaluation of these materials. You must be fun at parties!

      I’d say it certainly is in my budget. For over 5 years I greatly enjoyed a straight walled clay/liner pond in my yard for minimal cost of money and time. I regularly work beside it and it has brought a great deal of happiness to my life.

      For another 5 years, I’ll enjoy this minor upgrade to my pond with or without your engineering approval!

    9. #49
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    10. #50
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      I have a spot in the front of the house that’s between the garage and the entrance of the house and in front of the bedroom facing the street. That spot wouldbe good for a concrete collar pond. My wife would have a heart attack lol but if my guestimation is good dimensions should be 10 feet by 24 feet.

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    11. #51
      Paultergeist is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by livinzlife View Post
      ......For over 5 years I greatly enjoyed a straight walled clay/liner pond in my yard for minimal cost of money and time. I regularly work beside it and it has brought a great deal of happiness to my life.
      !
      You have been lucky. Part of that “luck” may be associated with your particular soil characteristics at your location. That may or may not change over time. Hopefully, for your sake, things will continue on as they have.

      My concern about posts such as yours, however, is that other would-be pond-builders may regard your current outcome as evidence that it is perfectly fine to build a liner pond with unsupported vertical earthen walls. It is not perfectly fine — it is taking a risk — and it does not require an extensive engineering background to confirm this. The concrete collar does indeed help, but the collar alone does not guarantee that the soil walls will not collapse inward.

      Others who choose this method of pond-building should do so with an understanding of the risks involved.

    12. #52
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      Quote Originally Posted by pickerel View Post
      I appreciate your vote of confidence. I don't like the idea of having such a shallow angle, but I dislike the idea of laying all those blocks even more.
      I've never laid a block in my life. It took me a long time to accept that a collar is necessary...now this. I know what you are saying is the best way to do it; I'm just not sure how much work my old back can take. I can sure understand why some people want to reach a compromise.
      Shallow angle? 2:1 is steep AF.

      Also, clay is nice and solid when reasonably dry. Saturate that clay and it's putty.
      Last edited by nil13; 11-10-2018 at 12:42 PM.

    13. #53
      icu2's Avatar
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      I'm certain to draw the same scolding but whether it's luck or soil, I also have a collar and
      vertical unsupported walls and not had a problem in the last 10 years.
      --Steve



      Koiphen 2021 Koi Person of the Year!

    14. #54
      pickerel's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by nil13 View Post
      Shallow angle? 2:1 is steep AF.
      If you consider 2:1 steep, what would you consider a safer angle?

    15. #55
      nil13 is offline Senior Member
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      I didn't say 2:1 is unsafe just that it is very steep and isn't anywhere close to a shallow slope. A shallow slope would be 1:2 or 1:3. Generally a 1:1 slope is the maximum stable slope for soil (depending and the structure of the soil and also deals with erosion) but 2:1 seems perfectly reasonable with the hydrostatic pressure from the pond side.

    16. #56
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      Quote Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
      You have been lucky. Part of that “luck” may be associated with your particular soil characteristics at your location. That may or may not change over time. Hopefully, for your sake, things will continue on as they have.

      My concern about posts such as yours, however, is that other would-be pond-builders may regard your current outcome as evidence that it is perfectly fine to build a liner pond with unsupported vertical earthen walls. It is not perfectly fine — it is taking a risk — and it does not require an extensive engineering background to confirm this. The concrete collar does indeed help, but the collar alone does not guarantee that the soil walls will not collapse inward.

      Others who choose this method of pond-building should do so with an understanding of the risks involved.
      Agreed! I’ve been pretty clear in this post that I weighed the options and chose what worked best for me. I also clearly stated that I’m comfortable rebuilding if it doesn’t hold up. I’ve had great success on the clay so far, and hope it continues for many more years. If not, no sweat!

      I also agree that it doesn’t require an engineering degree to see the risk, which is why I don’t feel that sharing my results is bad for would be pond builders. In case they lack common sense....

      WOULD BE POND BUILDERS, MAY I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE. IF YOU BUILD A STRAIGHT WALLED LINER POND, IT MAY OR MAY NOT HOLD UP!

    17. #57
      headman is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by tbullard View Post
      My pond is new (6 months old) and the issues I have are minimal. Some dirt must of fell behind the liner (Next to the skimmer where the collar stops) when I did a water change. The other area I am concerned about is at the “L”. The bulge I had pushed back in with my hand. I think all the exposed dirt/sand is causing this. If I had pavers down it would help with rain runoff. In my post I was just trying to see if this is normal.

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