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    Thread: Are these just Ulcers or infections or both?

    1. #1
      Debbie W is offline Junior Member
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      Are these just Ulcers or infections or both?

      Good morning everyone.
      The last couple of days my 2 Koi have been hiding a lot more that usually. When I was able to get a close look I could see that there is an issue!
      The pone is approximately 600 gal, water is testing well..
      Ph 7.98
      KH 9ppm
      GH 6ppm
      TDS 273
      EC .630
      NO-3 0
      NO-2 0
      NH3 / NH4 0
      Temp today is 66. Degrees.. Over the last week it has dropped from 85 down to 66 this week with the cold front that has entered the Northeast. Until the the temperature drop their appetite has been good.


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    6. #6
      montwila's Avatar
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      First off: Ulcers are infections that have advanced to necrotic tissue.
      Additionally the fin rot on the tail and vent fin are also infections on the Asagi.

      The "pop eye" on the Sanke is usually an internal bacterial infection near the front of the body that forces fluid into the cranial cavity forcing the eye out. This usually also affects the swimbladder. Basically it says the kidneys are not working/infected.

      Looking at your water parameters: can you clarify whether the KH and GH are ppm or drops of hardness? Normally I would assume drops but you have pH out to the hundreth mark so I wanted to check. If it is ppm then you probably need some KH to keep pH fluctuations/swings from happening. This disease process probably started before your temperature swing. However that large of a swing for small fish is very hard on them.
      Last edited by montwila; 2 Weeks Ago at 12:19 PM.

    7. #7
      Debbie W is offline Junior Member
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      I did express the KH and GH incorrectly, it should be drops for each



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      Is this too advanced to treat? I pulled them out of the pond for the day , they are now in a 10 gallon tank, which is totally to small for them.. I am going to see if I can get a larger one for them tonight.


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      Are these just Ulcers or infections or both?

      I have moved them to the too tiny 10 gallon tank. For the very short time.. I used 50% pond water and 50% well water. I have added 8oz of sea salt to the water and I am only circulating the water, no little charcoal filter.. would a 55 gal tank be enough for these two? I am thinking of keeping them inside for the winter instead of de icing the pond.


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      Last edited by Debbie W; 2 Weeks Ago at 03:04 PM.

    10. #10
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      These fish will need to be kept warm for a long time to heal. The Asagi is showing a lot of redness below the lateral line on both sides beside the ulcer itself and the fin rot. I doubt that this fish will make it and probably is to far to treat. The Sanke does have an infection. Warming it up to about 76*F and the salt may help it out. However not in time for this Winter to be put back in the pond. I would expect to have to keep it indoors all Winter. Koi are also social fish and need a buddy. So a 55 gallon tank with perfect water conditions could work for two fish this size. I am just thinking you might be down to one very quickly.

      Thank you for clarifying the drops/ppm

      Did the water temperature drop from 85 down to 66 in one week or the air temp? If it was the water then both these fish were stressed a lot. Koi can take about a 5* temp. change in a day but not everyday for multiple days. Especially down 20* in one week. If that is the case it has not helped. Try to warm them back up to 76* and keep it steady.

    11. #11
      Debbie W is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by montwila View Post
      These fish will need to be kept warm for a long time to heal. The Asagi is showing a lot of redness below the lateral line on both sides beside the ulcer itself and the fin rot. I doubt that this fish will make it and probably is to far to treat. The Sanke does have an infection. Warming it up to about 76*F and the salt may help it out. However not in time for this Winter to be put back in the pond. I would expect to have to keep it indoors all Winter. Koi are also social fish and need a buddy. So a 55 gallon tank with perfect water conditions could work for two fish this size. I am just thinking you might be down to one very quickly.

      Thank you for clarifying the drops/ppm

      Did the water temperature drop from 85 down to 66 in one week or the air temp? If it was the water then both these fish were stressed a lot. Koi can take about a 5* temp. change in a day but not everyday for multiple days. Especially down 20* in one week. If that is the case it has not helped. Try to warm them back up to 76* and keep it steady.
      Yes . The water temp did drop over 1 week.. we had 90 degree days for two weeks, cold front come in and the outside temperatures was at 70 the next 2 days for the last 3 days we have been around 55 with no sun. The pond water has been 66 to 70 degrees since Saturday. I agree with your assessment of the Asagi, he looks bad. The last 18 hours they seem a little better.. I will be getting the 55 gallon tank ASAP. When I first started with my pond, I had a 100gal tank for the fancy goldfish I had in my tiny pond. I would take them in every winter. I love to look at them.. I got rid of that tank about 10 years ago. Now that I am trying to up my game to Koi I want to be responsible with how many I keep in my pond. I think the Sanke is looking better today. He might have a chance. Any recommendations for Asagi, I would like to try to save him.


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    12. #12
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      The visible redness is on both sides of the Asagi and covers about 3/4 of its body. I would hold very little hope. Keeping it in the tank with the Sanke will just keep the bad bacteria multiplying in that tank. I would not try to save it unless you had two separate tanks. The treatment would be aggressive and you would have to physically clean the wound of necrotic tissue. This involves anesthesia and a lot of handling. This will stress both fish if they are in the same tank.

      The Sanke in a larger aquarium through the winter is possible that it may recover.

      I would let the Asagi pass on in hopes of saving the Sanke.

    13. #13
      Debbie W is offline Junior Member
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      Thank you, I will be setting up the 55 gallon tomorrow. I can keep him in the 10 gallon tank, I am a paramedic and have some surgical experience as well as the tools. So I am not afraid of the challenge. I just hope he is !


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    14. #14
      ademink's Avatar
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      I would purchase Tricide Neo asap for the Asagi if you would like to try to save him. You can sedate him and apply as a one-time paste. I have pulled some back from the brink that looked like goners for sure. Pristine water conditions are key for healing and warm temps, as indicated above. Make sure you have an ammonia/nitrite blocking product (ie Seachem Prime) and figure out a way to get a mature filter on these kids.
      Andrea
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    15. #15
      Debbie W is offline Junior Member
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      I was not able to treat or save the Asiagi, He passed sometime Friday Night. I had got got back home around 10:30pm and set up the 55 gal tank. I was going to do the paste on him Saturday morning. When I woke up on Saturday, he had passed .. I was able to move the Sanke to the big tank when it reached temperature. she looks better, I think.... While they were in the 10 gal tank I was doing salt at 6%. I was changing the water at least 50% a at to keep the Ammonia down. I am now buliding up my first aid kit and my Rx supply. Next time my failure to plan should not be the cause of their demise. Here are the pictures of the Sanke 1 week apart.

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    17. #17
      ademink's Avatar
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      Sorry for your loss, Debbie. I'm glad that you will be prepared next time but it's sad to lose a fish.
      Andrea
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    18. #18
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    19. #19
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      I agree, I was really hoping to get everything together in time to save him. I have cleaned out the 10 gal tank and have sanitized it so as not to contaminate anyone else who may need the hospital tank. The ABX have been arriving the last few days. I have 2 large air stones in the 55 gal tank to keep as much 02 in there. I am using prime to get the bio filters established. The Sanke seem to have calmed down. Definitely less stress. The wound seems to be healing, Please let me know if I am wrong.
      The only treatment to date has been the salt baths.


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    20. #20
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      Replied to other thread
      Salts bath just really does nothing to help the wounds in my opinion
      Salt is helpful with certain treatment such as elbagin that is for scrape and scruffs
      This is infection and your most current thread showed it clearly worse on the sanke
      Antibiotic such as T-Neo (paste) or medicines to mix in water or even injection are the only cure for healing the affected areas
      M.Nguyen


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