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  • Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
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    Thread: Probably Egg Bound. Looking for Virtual and RL Help!

    1. #21
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      The dosing is better given at the next size larger than the next size smaller, so if you are just guessing size guess larger. You can always reduce the amount in the syringe if not needed, but getting more can be problematic.

      The size of the syringe is probably given because larger fish have thicker scales, so the shorter finer needle size would be good for doitsu. For scaled, I always shot in the joint of the fin just in front of the vent, like in an armpit, as that area has no scales and no bone, so easy to penetrate and no pulled scales. The angle isn't critical, but about 45 degrees works well.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      The dosing is better given at the next size larger than the next size smaller, so if you are just guessing size guess larger. You can always reduce the amount in the syringe if not needed, but getting more can be problematic.

      The size of the syringe is probably given because larger fish have thicker scales, so the shorter finer needle size would be good for doitsu. For scaled, I always shot in the joint of the fin just in front of the vent, like in an armpit, as that area has no scales and no bone, so easy to penetrate and no pulled scales. The angle isn't critical, but about 45 degrees works well.
      Thank you Rich! She called back to ask about the syringes, I told her I'd get back to her. She also said the largest strength of Baytril she carries is 2.27%, but the info in the Health Sticky mentions doubling that in order to equal the 5%. Did I interpret that correctly?

      Going by the chart (at 5%) for a 24" Koi the dose would be 1.2 cc ?
      For her 2.27% strength, same 24" Koi the dose would be 2.4 cc ?


      I know, I sound like a moron. I haven't slept. I was in there all night. I don't know if I'm more worried for her or for me at this point!

      I hope I didn't offend anyone with the "easy-peasy" remark. It wasn't meant to sound offensive in any way. If you've read all the other stuff in any of my posts on the forum you know how much I really respect and admire you all, and how grateful I am for all you do here to help me and others.

      btw -

      She seems worse today I think. For the last few days she's been hanging out under the waterfall, but today when I was feeding the others she swam around a bit into the deep part (where she usually likes to be!) but started struggling to swim, opened her mouth wide at the surface and was kind of rolling her body back and forth and sort of flapping her fins like she was trying to move a different way but couldn't get it right. Then finally she was able to turn, was back to head down, and back to the waterfall.

      Any thoughts?
      Find Something You Would Die For And Live for It.



    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
      Thank you Rich! She called back to ask about the syringes, I told her I'd get back to her. She also said the largest strength of Baytril she carries is 2.27%, but the info in the Health Sticky mentions doubling that in order to equal the 5%. Did I interpret that correctly?

      Going by the chart (at 5%) for a 24" Koi the dose would be 1.2 cc ?
      For her 2.27% strength, same 24" Koi the dose would be 2.4 cc ?


      I know, I sound like a moron. I haven't slept. I was in there all night. I don't know if I'm more worried for her or for me at this point!

      I hope I didn't offend anyone with the "easy-peasy" remark. It wasn't meant to sound offensive in any way. If you've read all the other stuff in any of my posts on the forum you know how much I really respect and admire you all, and how grateful I am for all you do here to help me and others.

      btw -

      She seems worse today I think. For the last few days she's been hanging out under the waterfall, but today when I was feeding the others she swam around a bit into the deep part (where she usually likes to be!) but started struggling to swim, opened her mouth wide at the surface and was kind of rolling her body back and forth and sort of flapping her fins like she was trying to move a different way but couldn't get it right. Then finally she was able to turn, was back to head down, and back to the waterfall.

      Any thoughts?
      Yes, you've got the dosage right... 2.27% strength Baytril would be 2.4cc for a 24" koi.
      The syringe I used on my 26" koi was a 3cc syringe with a 25 gauge x 5/8" needle.

      And personally, no offense with the remark. I know exactly what you mean... it's like when people give you
      driving directions that drive the route everyday... "Well you just turn at the road after that yellow sign and go a ways
      and then turn right".... but there are 17 yellow signs and 4 different roads you see you could turn on!!
      No worries...
      --Steve
      Find more about Weather in Poulsbo, WA

      "It is far better to be alone, than to be in bad company." --George Washington

    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Yes, you've got the dosage right... 2.27% strength Baytril would be 2.4cc for a 24" koi.
      The syringe I used on my 26" koi was a 3cc syringe with a 25 gauge x 5/8" needle.

      And personally, no offense with the remark. I know exactly what you mean... it's like when people give you
      driving directions that drive the route everyday... "Well you just turn at the road after that yellow sign and go a ways
      and then turn right".... but there are 17 yellow signs and 4 different roads you see you could turn on!!
      No worries...
      Thanks Steve, that helps a lot. She's supposed to be here around 5 p.m. today; hopefully she'll bring both sizes. I guess I'm on my own from here on in.
      Wish me luck. Thanks everyone for all your help, encouragement & responses! I really appreciated every one of them more than I can say.
      Find Something You Would Die For And Live for It.



    5. #25
      cindy's Avatar
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      Pictures Glad you have a vet that will help
      My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."


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    6. #26
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      Hi Everyone,
      I just wanted to post a very quick update to say that in the end I had to make the decision to euthanize Lola. The vet arrived and before even injecting her, when actually handling her we noted that although she was swollen she wasn't very hard (I expected her to be rather tight considering her inflated girth) the vet suggested we try a catheter to relieve some of the "bloating pressure" whether it be from eggs, air/gas, buildup of fluid, etc. to try to make her more comfortable. No sooner was the catheter put in than a profusion of very bloody fluid came out, and kept coming.

      At that point it was her opinion that Lola was 'not coming back from this', and I had to agree. I had clove oil, plenty of ice, and we humanely euthanized her then and there.

      I have questions I'd like to ask of the forum; I'm just too heartbroken to deal with it all now. Just didn't want to keep you all wondering what happened.
      Find Something You Would Die For And Live for It.



    7. #27
      icu2's Avatar
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      I'm so sorry.
      --Steve
      Find more about Weather in Poulsbo, WA

      "It is far better to be alone, than to be in bad company." --George Washington

    8. #28
      ademink's Avatar
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      So sorry you lost her. You certainly did all that you could do. ❤️
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    9. #29
      cindy's Avatar
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      I am so sorry. You did an incredible job trying to save her.
      My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."


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    10. #30
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      She's Gone, but I need to think of the others.....

      Thank you all for the kind words and your help throughout!

      I went into this 'hoping for the best' but still fairly pragmatic. I knew She was not about to get a few shots and be 'all better again'. Best case scenario, I'd hoped that she was egg bound, and had a secondary infection. that we'd treat the infection (injection and antibiotic tank) and be able to express the eggs - hopefully prolonging her life for a time at least.

      I did NOT expect to have things turn so badly so quickly that a decision to euthanize had to be made on the spot. Had there been someone here with some experience, some actual knowledge of the whys and wherefores, someone to say: 'that's not unusal, all that bloody fluid is just ..... " .
      So now I have to live with my lack of knowledge, making the call and wondering if I should have tried keeping her going.

      Out of love for her and my other fish I have to learn from this. My Questions:

      Is it fairly safe to assume she was not egg bound (?) since in the videos I saw online they were all able to draw out at least a few eggs when a catheter was inserted to provide some evidence.

      Given the large amount of bloody fluid that came out, plus the lack of any eggs at all, and given the bloating, is there a next logical diagnosis? Dropsy? Internal infection? Parasites?

      I'd like to know so I can learn to watch for signs in others, learn what is going wrong, what's causing these things, how to prevent them in my other fish.

      Anything you can tell me, any suggestions you can make will be very helpful.


      Thank you again for everything!

      .....

      Even before she started to bloat, we had someone up here to give us an estimate on a total pond cleanout (remove all the fish and really scrub out every inch of the liner, waterfall, etc.), as well as replacing one of the filters with an even larger one and adding a pressurized sieve as a mechanical pre-filter, larger UV, etc..
      Hopefully that will go a long way toward improving the bacterial problems (?) in the water quality along with doing the 600 gal. weekly water changes we do.
      Find Something You Would Die For And Live for It.



    11. #31
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      Don't stress yourself out about this. It is nothing that you did wrong. I have had koi for many years and more fish than most. Dropsy happens. They used to say you cannot save a fish with dropsy.

      I saved a few, but it was a rare thing for one to totally recover with no further issues. I had one that got dropsy every winter when the water got cold. She died from it the third or fourth year. Others were generally not healthy after they got over dropsy. Some got systemic bacterial infections later and died, or had other issues.

      Some just get dropsy as they get old and organs start to fail.

      Fish are like people. Some just get sick, have bad kidneys, bad hearts, etc. and die earlier than others.

      Unless you get a bunch with dropsy, a random koi does not mean you were a bad keeper.

      Some of the fish that I had that got dropsy, were ones that also had issues when new and in quarantine. Ulcers, fin rot or some other issue when the rest of the fish had no problems. I think they just had poor immunity.
      Nancy



    12. #32
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      I had a koimet (koi-goldfish hybrid) that was bloated/eggbound looking for almost a year. When she started going downhill, I tried an epsom salt bath and gentle squeeze - like yours, only clear fluid with bloody strands came out, no eggs. When she died, I did a disection and there was a large tumor all in and amongst her organs. There was nothing I could have done.
      I suspect the same is probably true with your fish.
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      Ci


    13. #33
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      Thank you all so much for the moral support!

      When we built our first pond years ago and I got my first Koi I thought 'How hard could it be; just like goldfish, right?' (and I never even had an aquarium). Let me introduce myself, Village Idiot at your service. LOL.

      I've bonded so deeply with mine, it's just so painful. I don't go out much due to physical issues, so my cats and my fish are my world. I get in the pond with them at least once a month when I'm cleaning out the waterfall basins or the floating island planters, but every other chance I get, just to 'play' and interact. Now I have to wear "waders" because my immune system stinks, but years ago I'd just use a bathing suit and it was so funny feeling them swishing against my legs. You know how they sometimes suck on your fingers when you feed them? They used to do that to my calves. I used to get fish hickeys! I talk to them and sing to them. They even have their own fish song.


      So here's some horrible pics of me in the pond with the fish - (some nice pics of Lola though); water's low, doing a water exchange. I figure we could all use a good laugh just about now.

      Thanks again everyone, you've all been so great!

      GoldieGirl - Kudos for making CKK! Yay you!
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    14. #34
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      There was a study done in Switzerland by a vet who surveyed bunch of koi keepers exploring the possible risk factors for for the development of tumours is koi. Here are some of the points / key results from that.
      Some tumours in fish have been attributed to genetic factors; others were associated with a virus or with environmental contamination.
      Tumours were mainly arising from the gonads with mesenteric involvement.
      Clinically, these fish present with a sudden and abnormal increase in volume of the abdomen (often in the late summer after spawning season). Most affected koi died within 1 year of an internal neoplasm being diagnosed.
      The tumour occurrences was significantly influenced by the pond location (outdoor/indoor), pond volume, and by the frequency of water changes. Significantly more tumour cases were seen in combined outdoor/indoor or indoor-only ponds, bigger ponds and with ponds with higher frequencies of water change.
      The breeder of the koi had a significant influence of tumour development, as did the number of animals kept. Koi from 'breeder A' were more prone to develop tumours than koi from other breeders. In ponds with more than 20 koi, neoplastic lesions were recorded more often.
      Koi from ponds which had received treatment (pond treatment) with praziquantel, formalin/malachite green or potassium permanganate in the 5 yr preceding the study showed a significantly higher likelihood of internal tumour development than from ponds with treatment with any of the above mentioned medications in the past 5 yr.
      Of the diseased koi 62% were 3 to 6 yr old. In terms of frequency of distribution of coloration patterns (of diseased koi), 28.5% showed coloration red/orange+ white and 18.5% the coloration red+white+black. 55.3% originated from Japan.
      The most frequent symptom seen in koi affected by an internal tumour was a distended abdomen - sometimes grossly. However, this only appeared in an advanced stage of tumour development. Being the only regularly observed sign, early and simple recognition of a tumour seems to be difficult for the hobbyist and even for specialized veterinarians. Furthermore other conditions such as egg development in females or bacterial/viral infections inducing ascites. The use of ultrasound imaging might be useful for an early diagnosis.
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