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    Thread: Probably Egg Bound. Looking for Virtual and RL Help!

    1. #1
      DarkStar is offline Supporting Member
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      Probably Egg Bound. Looking for Virtual and RL Help!

      One of my dearest loves (and one of the largest) a gorgeous Shusui 12 year old named Lola. She's 24-26" long. I'll post pics - most of body shape showing (bloating) and anal area, but I'll also post one or two of her oh-so-sweet face. How could anyone help but love that face?

      I know, you want all the background info first.

      I was having tons of trouble with snails, then a terrible smell from the pond - which I posted about:
      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...highlight=Odor

      Stephen even suggested that it may have been a spawning! It seemed somewhat like that of a previous spawning we had a few years ago but only some white foaming, no dense yellow, not nearly the volume and no eggs. So I ruled that out. Jumping ahead I now believe it was more like 'coitus interruptus'. She had the eggs, there's probably still a small male in there who put out the sperm (hence the smell and bits of foam) but he wasn't big enough to pound the eggs out of her.

      I'm trying to make this part brief and get to the crux of the issue.
      We blasted out the Ultima filter completely and put in all new media. We still had the established EZ-Pod running to seed the filter, provide established bacteria, etc.

      Still, the Ammonia & Nitrites may have gone up a tiny bit - not enough to register 0.25, but just enough to be a "questionable hint" of a change in color. e.g. - Nitrite 0 is that beautiful pale Aqua color. Mine turned a little deeper blue but not enough to become the lite purple/orchid of the 0.25. on the card. (New Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Master Pond Kit Drops). Ammonia still 0 yellow, but if you squint just so...... is that a hint of green?
      So, to be on the safe side, I used Ultimate water conditioner and keep checking.

      1700 gallon Indoor Pond. Operating for more than 10 years.
      KH is 214.8 = 12 drops (always kept between 200 - 250 to prevent pH swings)
      pH 8.1
      There are 9 fish:
      The 2 largest are 24-28" long. (Lola and one other)
      4 others are between 12-16" long
      and 3 are between 7-12" long

      No new fish added. Newbies from our own spawning in pond about 5 years ago.

      We normally do a backwash of both filters with a total water exchange of 600 gallons of water each week.
      But after replacing with new media in Ultima, that had not been backwashed in 4 weeks.

      Water Temp when this first started was around 80*. Currently it's 74*

      So, when I first noticed her head down and tail up, I thought she was 'grazing' algae at the bottom of the pond. Then it occurred to me that she seemed a lot heavier that she'd been before and that she hadn't come over to feed from my hand; but I'd been away from the pond for several days - had an accident (not important compared to losing Koi).
      I'd had someone monitoring the pond, testing, etc. Never thought to ask about odd behavior because the fish aren't as friendly with others as they are with me.

      So a week or so goes by and she's not coming to me, not eating anything that I can see, and getting larger.
      Weird. Everyone else is acting ok. Water parameters checked out all along except for the smell which was driving me crazy.

      Note for the curious* re: Odor. yes, some of the smell did disapate when we blasted out the Ultima and replaced all the media, but it was still there! Only after many, many water exchanges, keeping the doors open and fans running non-stop has the smell finally faded away for the most part. I have no explaination, only guessing that the original intense odor had permeated everything inside the room (ceiling tiles, walls, etc.) and it took all this time to release it. Or else the smell was actually coming from the pond as well and only the repeated multiple water exchanges finally diluted/got rid of it. Or maybe a combination of both possibilities.

      Anyway, my beautiful Shusui now looks like a big football, hasn't eaten in about 3 weeks now and is frequently head down, tail up.
      There are no visible ulcers that I can see, and (forgive my ignorance of correct terminology) she is protruding quite a bit in her anal area.
      I do Not see any raised scales.
      Her 'bloating' is uniform, no bumps or lumps or protruded areas that would provide a visual clue to an internal tumor. (I had a fish who had one, and her whole side got much larger than the other).

      l've scoured the web for photos to compare her against (egg bound vs. dropsy, vs. tumor) but the bottom line is I'm totally helpless to do anything about it, no matter what it is. I have limitations. I accept that. But I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get the right kind of help. Up until now that hasn't been a problem.

      I don't have any go-to person in this area any more. When I had a sick fish that required handling and injecting the fish I used to call Steve (IIRC he was a Marine Biologist ?) from Keirin's in Allentown, PA and pay him to come up here to assess the problem and treat the fish; sometimes Karl. They're no longer there. I hope I'm not making any enemies in mentioning that; I've since learned that's not a popular name to mention. I'm not making any testimonials, other than the fact that I paid people to take care of my fish if they were sick. You shouldn't hold that against me.

      Back in 2002(?) I didn't even know about the "KOI WORLD", the MAKC or anything else. Theirs was the only Koi place that I knew of within travel distance for my limitations. I started making a few trips there, bought some Koi, and came home. Talk about a newb. I didn't even know you could ship fish or find Koi online!!!! Only later did I start meeting other folks there, even a few breeders, and learned so much!

      I'm getting off track.

      Lola, Egg Bound or Internal Infection. Trying desperately to save my fish. My questions:

      Does anyone know a KOI VET in PA, NJ or NY who makes house calls north of Scranton, PA.
      I've called a few listed specifically as 'travel fish vets' in the Northeast but they don't do it anymore. I'm still following some leads but they don't look promising.

      A Certified Koi Keeper? I'm more than happy to pay for gas, time & expenses, & whatever 'fee' you think is fair for your help/services with the Koi.


      Any real hope that she's still absorbing eggs after 3 weeks time?
      Would a hormone injection do anything at this point?
      Can the eggs still be expressed if they've hardened or do they have to be surgically removed?
      Can that be done successfully and have the fish survive?

      I've salted the pond to .3%. Would salting to .6% be helpful in this situation? If it's swim bladder or internal infection?

      Any other comments or suggestions?
      I don't know if I'm asking all the right questions.

      Please.
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    2. #2
      ademink's Avatar
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      Good morning - I'm sorry you're having these issues. I do not have time for an extensive answer at the moment but wanted to provide you with the link to connect w/ a local CKK:

      https://koiorganisationinternational...k-contact-list
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    3. #3
      montwila's Avatar
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      I am going internal infection with the head down attitude.

      I am seeing an extremely bloated fish with the protruding vent and lateral line as the main points. Whether it is from eggs or internal organ failure I cannot say. With this age of this fish any attempt to spawn (after five years of no spawning) would probably cause some damage internally. All the eggs are never fully absorbed, especially in an indoor pond and probably would require a fast of several weeks to even start this. With the floating foam I am sure you have a high concentration of DOC's and probably NitrAtes. However if you are doing a weekly water change of 600 gallons (35%) this would not make much sense. The other strange thing is if your "new" fish are five years old from a spawn you had. Why are they only 7-12"? They should be much larger than this. Something is amiss and that something is probably why your fish is not well.

      That is about all I can say. Not much help but I am not sure there is much help for this fish at this age. Hopefully someone else sees something I do not or an actual pond visit might reveal something you might not have mentioned.

      Good Luck.

    4. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by ademink View Post
      Good morning - I'm sorry you're having these issues. I do not have time for an extensive answer at the moment but wanted to provide you with the link to connect w/ a local CKK:
      https://koiorganisationinternational...k-contact-list

      Thank you kindly for taking the time Andrea, I've just sent off a message to a CKK from that link in PA.
      I know Cindy is one and she's simply A-mazing! Cindy, do you see a move to PA in your future?


      First, I apologize if I steered anyone wrong with misinformation. It's so hard to give "ALL" of the background and info on a pond when you'd have to go back years, changes in equipment, etc. and you're trying to get to the point of the fish problem. I thought the most important info was the "here and now" with the water parameters, her behavior, relevant pics, etc.
      That some of that other information may have been important to anyone's impressions and conclusions, I'm sorry. I've tried to correct where needed or asked. If there's anything else, ask away. I know you're trying to help. And believe me, I need it!




      Hi Monte,
      To avoid confusion I'll respond to things in blue point by point because it may or may not be significant and I really appreciate your input.

      Quote Originally Posted by montwila View Post
      I am going internal infection with the head down attitude.
      I am seeing an extremely bloated fish with the protruding vent and lateral line as the main points. Whether it is from eggs or internal organ failure I cannot say. With this age of this fish any attempt to spawn (after five years of no spawning) would probably cause some damage internally.


      Well, my ignorance is responsible for that. I didn't know that females continue to produce eggs even without a male prompting her. After the last spawn and my hubby freaking out over the smell, we took many of the adults and put them in the outdoor pond (probably all the males). Spawning may have been 4 years instead of 5 but the bottom line is maybe the one or two new guys are just getting around to maturing enough to try out the equipment so to speak? But not big enough to take her to the dance?

      All the eggs are never fully absorbed, especially in an indoor pond and probably would require a fast of several weeks to even start this. With the floating foam I am sure you have a high concentration of DOC's and probably NitrAtes.

      Yes, we have Well Water and it comes in with NitrAtes, so it's a never-ending battle.
      Also we don't have a bottom drain. Which is why we have 2 filters for a 1700 gallon pond and do a 35% water exchange each week. I'll attach a photo of the water tank we use for fresh water/water exchanges. Blue fiberglass. Got it from Aquatic Eco Systems many years ago. Holds 550-600 gal. depending on how high you fill it.

      However if you are doing a weekly water change of 600 gallons (35%) this would not make much sense.

      Part of the reason for that now is the one filter (Ultima 4000) NOT being backwashed for the last 4 weeks because we just pressure washed the insides, put in all new media, a new lateral column, etc.) so while trying to seed the media, I imagine there's quite a bit of muck building up in there adding to the NitrAtes & foam too. I also assumed (maybe terribly wrong) that the .3% salt and the treatments of Ultimate water conditioner is further contributing to foam.
      I know the Phoam Fractionator goes to overflowing even when I have it tapped down to the lowest setting. Just a possibility?


      The other strange thing is if your "new" fish are five years old from a spawn you had. Why are they only 7-12"?

      My Bad. Middle of the night, trying to write the thread & picture them in my head, and I figured I'd give a general broad range. We do have one little butterfly runt from the spawn (not counting tails in measuring) he's actually about 10" long now and the others are between 14 - 19" It was never an important factor to me, you know? We were heavily overstocked before the spawning and thinned out a lot of adults and 99.9% of the eggs after that.
      Is that still small? I wouldn't know.



      They should be much larger than this. Something is amiss and that something is probably why your fish is not well.

      I'm sure there has to be a reason, but with all due respect I hope you're wrong about the correlation between the size of my fish and why this particular fish is sick.
      Because if it is in fact the same cause, each of the rest of them are awaiting this very fate in turn. I'm sure you understand my reasoning there, right?


      That is about all I can say. Not much help but I am not sure there is much help for this fish at this age. Hopefully someone else sees something I do not or an actual pond visit might reveal something you might not have mentioned.
      Good Luck.
      Question: If it is an internal infection, would salting the pond to 6% and giving her Antibiotic injections (assuming I can get some) help or would an infection / impaction of that type put her beyond that?

      Thank you so much for putting so much thought into this. Anyone who takes time to try and assist a fellow member is 'helping' in my book, and is always appreciated and respected, no matter what. If you think of anything else please do let me know!

      Am I grasping at straws and looking for a Hail Mary Pass? Of course I am. Thanks, Monte!
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    5. #5
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      Looks like dropsy. Eyes look protruded to me. In doitsu they lack the scales sticking out.

      You could try salt and and oxolium. I have had luck with it in the past. Salt to 6 % worked for me. I did not do oxolium baths, mine said to add to water daily. I think I added it for 7 days.
      Nancy



    6. #6
      montwila's Avatar
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      Very sorry. I had a nice response typed out and hit the wrong button. So this one will be very abbreviated.

      Okay, so the foam is Ultimate and Salinity from the foam fractionator. Okay moving on.

      Do not feel bad as you provided much more information than we usually get. Thank you for the extra info in your response. The new sizes of your fish and the explanation of NitrAtes in your source water paints a better picture. Nitrates in the source water may shorten their lives from what it could have been. However I am sure Lola has proven it is not too bad being 12 years old.

      Yes, Dropsy is third spacing due to water retention usually because of problems with the kidneys. I chose to use bloating as it is a Doitsu and does not imply raised scales (pineconing) so often assumed with dropsy. However we describe the excess water it is due to the kidneys being overworked. Thus the head down attitude when swimming as it usually affects the swim bladder duct.

      Antibiotics also are a burden on the kidneys and this is where a vet is needed to balance the amount of antibiotic that is given. Most vets will simply dose as indicated by the size of the fish. Some fish can take that amount or it may totally overwhelm the kidneys and they shut down. My speculation by her shape is that they are very close if not already shut down.

      Oxolium is made from Oxolinic Acid. Both can be used, sprayed onto the food or as a dip or both. Often recommended as a last resort.

      Salting to .6% would not hurt and is usually the recommendation here on this site. If you can get rid of water that high in salinity.

      The Hail Mary in my opinion would be injectable antibiotics and maybe raising the salinity to help with osmosis.

      My thoughts are that this occurred in warm water and if the fish could heal itself it would have. If it was a spawn, then old eggs became loose or trauma occurred causing a bacterial infection within the peritoneal cavity and the protruding vent. The age of the fish having NitrAtes in the source water probably means it is "older" than the calendar years might indicate and its healing capability might be compromised. The shape of the fish indicates an advanced stage of water retention. She could live this way for some time in a nice warm indoor pond. However my hopes are not high without intervention and even that intervention at this stage my be too much for her.

      Best of luck.

    7. #7
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    8. #8
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      To Monte and Nancy, thank you both very much for your responses and questions about Oxolium: Is it a powder or liquid, what is it supposed to do, can I treat the whole pond, will it hurt the other fish, and depending on those answers - where can I get it?

      Monte, I'm sending out a big virtual hug for explaining all of that in great detail. It helps so much to know what's going on in the process, what may have happened to contribute in the past , etc. Even when I've messed up royally, and I know I have many times, I want to learn and folks like you are nice enough (and yes, even brave enough) to tell it like it is kindly, but honestly, so we can all do that. For that I sincerely thank you.

      That being said, I'm going to put you (and everyone else!) on the spot for your opinion once more and ask for opinions. What would you do now?

      As I see it from what's been said so far, (please correct me if I'm mistaken) her condition is apparently very advanced, whether it's egg impaction and/or dropsy / infection. It doesn't seem like there's much hope regardless.

      I'm slowly raising the salinity to .6 (it's at .3 now), and I've found a Fish Vet about 1 1/2 hours away from me. (Neither of the CKK's panned out; both email addy's had changed. So no luck getting someone else here to take a RL look at her).

      Would you:

      *Take her to the Vet?

      *Apply the Oxolium and wait for her to pass on her own?

      *Euthanize her now so she doesn't have to go through this any longer?

      AND

      Do you have any recommendations / advice for treatment (if necessary) for the rest of the fish? Do I have to be sure there are enough males in there to guarantee successful spawning each year?, etc.

      Your opinions and your help means a lot to me. Thank you!
      Last edited by DarkStar; 09-12-2018 at 10:37 AM. Reason: spelling
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    9. #9
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      Ok, reading.

      No, don't even think about putting her down.

      Monte gave good advice.

      If you still have a smell, something is trapped in your filter, waterfall or pond. I'd start with a 50% water change and find it. Healthy water has no smell.

      Oxolinic acid is a powder, we have a calculator up top to figure the amount. It needs to be done away from your pond in a qt/hospital tank. It is an antibiotic and will kill your filter. Even need to rinse her before she goes back in. If you have a vet and can get injectible baytril, even better.

      Stop feeding. She isn't going to starve. If you have her in a hospital tank, you can watch poop. If she isn't going, you can feed her peas. I agree with taking the salt to .6%.

      I'll message James and get his current email address.
      My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."


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    10. #10
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      If you move her to a qt, can you heat? What's the pond temp? Sorry, James said 73.
      My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."


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    11. #11
      cindy's Avatar
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      You have a pm.
      My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."


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    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by cindy View Post
      Ok, reading.

      No, don't even think about putting her down.

      Monte gave good advice.

      If you still have a smell, something is trapped in your filter, waterfall or pond. I'd start with a 50% water change and find it. Healthy water has no smell.

      Oxolinic acid is a powder, we have a calculator up top to figure the amount. It needs to be done away from your pond in a qt/hospital tank. It is an antibiotic and will kill your filter. Even need to rinse her before she goes back in. If you have a vet and can get injectible baytril, even better.

      Stop feeding. She isn't going to starve. If you have her in a hospital tank, you can watch poop. If she isn't going, you can feed her peas. I agree with taking the salt to .6%.

      I'll message James and get his current email address.
      Thanks for taking a look Cindy!

      I'm increasing salt now. At .3% - Raise it to .6% all at once or slowly over a day or two?

      She hasn't eaten in more than 3 weeks! She won't come to me at all now, nor going to food at feeding time. Those photos of her eating were not up to the minute - that was just to show everyone her so sweet face.

      I use floating food, but did not get sinking food for her because I thought is she was "reabsorbing" eggs it was better if she did not eat anyway.

      re: Smell - after many, many large water exchanges the smell is gone (note that we blasted out one filter and replaced all media), in addition we suspect some attempt at spawning because she didn't start to "bloat" until after the smell and the foam appeared. Not to say there isn't a combination of problems here since it's gone on for weeks before I was able to do anything.

      re: "Oxolinic acid is a powder, we have a calculator up top to figure the amount. It needs to be done away from your pond in a qt/hospital tank. It is an antibiotic and will kill your filter. Even need to rinse her before she goes back in. If you have a vet and can get injectible baytril, even better."

      She's in the pond, not QT tank. I have the 600 gal. tank I have to use for weekly water exchnges. The only other tank I have is a 300 gal. rubbermaid - probably too small for her?

      What about the bypass on the filters for times when treating with medication?

      re: injectible baytril - I may be able to get that from my local "Cat's Vet" if someone can tell me the dose? And someone would be here to inject her?
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    13. #13
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      First I do not think you messed up royally as the fish is 12 years old. Some folks go through fish every three to four years (or less).

      Oxolium or Oxolinic Acid. Neither should be used in the pond as Cindy says. It is a dip or sometimes used on the food. If used on the food even that small amount can affect the filters and since you are trying to start a filter again is probably not really an option. Once it is in the pond it continues to work on all bacteria indiscriminately. In fact the good bacteria within the fishes digestive tract also. That is why I believe it is suggested as a last resort. However your 300 gallon tank would work for this. At the lower doses (oxolium) the fish can be kept in it for up to 10 days but the water has to be changed as any organics that foul the water must be removed. So the dip is probably your option if this is what you choose and means moving the fish for possibly more than one treatment back and forth. Do not lift the fish out of the water ----- Now what does that mean?? to move a fish this size and with possible internal problems it must be kept in some water of gravity will take affect in it. You will need to use a sock net or heavy plastic bag (3-4 mil) that is large enough to fit the fish and water within it to transfer it. Try U-Tube for a better explanation of using a sock net.

      Taking her to a vet: in my state the vet is required to actually see and examine the animal they are treating. This will be a large under taking. It will involve the above plus boxing (I use coolers) the fish. It can be done in a single bag but if the vet wants to open the bag it is best to have an entire new box/water as the CO2 will be let out raising the pH within the bagged water. The ammonia will become more toxic. This can be over come using your Ultimate. Very brief. There is a lot to transporting fish to a koi show where a tank of water is waiting. Going to the vet is much more challenging IMHO. Regardless the fish must be treated gently and in Lola's case VERY gently. Best scenario the 1 1/2 hr vet prescribes and antibiotic based upon pictures/video and local cat vet loads the syringe up and you inject them or find someone who can.

      Like Cindy says: if the fish is not passing feces. The swelling within and pressure may have shut down its digestive tract by compressing the intestines. The good news is it is a short system. The bad news is if it is not open the fish has a small chance to survive. The salinity hopefully will take some of the internal pressure off the intestines. However I am the pessimist of the group. Other than goldfish, fish seldom get this swollen. If it has been 3 plus weeks since you noticed this I am holding very little hope.

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      Quote Originally Posted by montwila View Post
      First I do not think you messed up royally as the fish is 12 years old. Some folks go through fish every three to four years (or less).

      Oxolium or Oxolinic Acid. Neither should be used in the pond as Cindy says. It is a dip or sometimes used on the food. If used on the food even that small amount can affect the filters and since you are trying to start a filter again is probably not really an option. Once it is in the pond it continues to work on all bacteria indiscriminately. In fact the good bacteria within the fishes digestive tract also. That is why I believe it is suggested as a last resort. However your 300 gallon tank would work for this. At the lower doses (oxolium) the fish can be kept in it for up to 10 days but the water has to be changed as any organics that foul the water must be removed. So the dip is probably your option if this is what you choose and means moving the fish for possibly more than one treatment back and forth. Do not lift the fish out of the water ----- Now what does that mean?? to move a fish this size and with possible internal problems it must be kept in some water of gravity will take affect in it. You will need to use a sock net or heavy plastic bag (3-4 mil) that is large enough to fit the fish and water within it to transfer it. Try U-Tube for a better explanation of using a sock net.

      Taking her to a vet: in my state the vet is required to actually see and examine the animal they are treating. This will be a large under taking. It will involve the above plus boxing (I use coolers) the fish. It can be done in a single bag but if the vet wants to open the bag it is best to have an entire new box/water as the CO2 will be let out raising the pH within the bagged water. The ammonia will become more toxic. This can be over come using your Ultimate. Very brief. There is a lot to transporting fish to a koi show where a tank of water is waiting. Going to the vet is much more challenging IMHO. Regardless the fish must be treated gently and in Lola's case VERY gently. Best scenario the 1 1/2 hr vet prescribes and antibiotic based upon pictures/video and local cat vet loads the syringe up and you inject them or find someone who can.

      Like Cindy says: if the fish is not passing feces. The swelling within and pressure may have shut down its digestive tract by compressing the intestines. The good news is it is a short system. The bad news is if it is not open the fish has a small chance to survive. The salinity hopefully will take some of the internal pressure off the intestines. However I am the pessimist of the group. Other than goldfish, fish seldom get this swollen. If it has been 3 plus weeks since you noticed this I am holding very little hope.
      Yes, I first took note of it as something that might be "wrong" around August 25th (I keep a pond notebook). She appeared to be swelling, and what I first thought of as her "grazing at the bottom" because she was still swimming around otherwise, more and more became a continual position (head down/tail up) over the next several days and I realized she was not eating at all. When I came around she'd swim away normally - but still. I tried reading my Koi books (Doc Johnson's, etc.) Sorry, I'm getting way off track.
      The bottom line is, for all my years of having fish I've never been able to wrangle or inject any. You don't need to hear about my physical problems but as I explained at the very beginning of this thread, in the past I've hired folks to come and inject, scrape, and do the heavy lifting, etc. I don't have anyone now. And I wasted far too much time before posting here and asking for help.


      Ok, back to the present. I've got a very sick fish and I have to decide what to do. The amount of salt I put in earlier should bring it up to .4% before I went for treatment today, but I won't know for sure until I use the Koi Medic pen in the a.m. Should I add the last .2% all at once?

      I'm checking Ammonia & Nitrite daily. (Pondmaster API drops) Any sign of either, I'll add Ultimate water conditioner.

      re: Taking her to Fish Vet 1 1/2 hour away. Nightmare for her and I, I'm guessing. Logistics aside, I figured the trip alone would probably kill her which is why I didn't rush to do it before now. She seems most comfortable in the head down position. Being forced to remain horizontal for that length of time alone might be enough to put too much pressure on her organs. But what do I know?

      I don't think she can be pooping if she's not eating anything, can she?

      I'm trying to get some help here to do an injection but that's still uncertain.

      re: Pessimist: I've always lived with the phrase "Hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst." I was diagnosed with a form of lymph-node cancer in 2013, and that phrase serves me well. Although I'm getting a little tired of hearing 'sorry, now it's in another place' at least I'm still here so there's always hope, right?
      (Don't feel bad - no need to comment, please!) I'm just saying, who knows ? maybe Lola has the same odds. At least I still hope so.

      If I forgot to answer something, please remind me.

      Any other comments or suggestions are certainly welcome!

      Again, Thank you all!
      Find Something You Would Die For And Live for It.



    15. #15
      icu2's Avatar
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      I wish I had more experience to help but I can give my thoughts on the vet visit since I've been down that road, so to speak.
      Although mine is only about a 30 min. drive, I can say it was well worth the cost of the office visit, tests, and antibiotics ($300)
      and the trauma on her. I know the trip is daunting but one way to look at it is, do you think she'll survive without the trip? You can
      only do what you feel is the best chance for her.

      The vet gave her the first shot and showed me step by step how to do it. I watched and helped him do a gill snip and scrape
      samples (no anesthesia). Invaluable experience watching and helping.
      For the trip I had a 20 gallon measuring tub I used and had a Medo air pump with a large air stone I ran with an inverter (DC to AC)
      I had for my trucks cigarette lighter. I used a piece of rigid foam insulation to cover the measuring tub and secured it with a couple of
      bungy cords so there was no chance of her leaping out. I added a few drops of clove oil to the water too just to calm her. Not even
      close to enough to sedate but it helped to keep her from thrashing. Be sure to put her perpendicular to the direction of travel so there's
      less chance of her slamming head or tail first in case of a sudden stop. Unless you have something like a large cooler with a sealed lid
      be prepared for water to spill. I had a tarp lining the back of my Explorer that helped it drain out the back.

      The injections were amazingly simple once I saw him do it. Part of the cost was 5 syringes pre-filled with the antibiotic so all I had to
      do was sedate and inject her. I injected her in the joint of her pectoral fin pointing towards her head. But tell the vet that you've not
      done it before and I'm sure he'll give you good instructions. The other option was for me to drive her back in for each injection that
      was to be given every other day. Since there was no way I wanted to do that I learned quick.

      I'm hoping for the best for her. Good luck with whatever you decide.
      --Steve
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    16. #16
      ademink's Avatar
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      Injections seem terrifying at first but if you have someone talk you through it, you can do it. If making the vet trip won't work logistically and you can get meds from your cat vet, I would DIY. I feel confident that Cindy could talk you through the procedure and there are many videos and pics online that can show you where/how the injection site is, etc. (edit to add: any of us can assist...I just know that you are corresponding w/ Cindy and she definitely knows the ropes!)

      Hundreds of us have had a "first time" for injections and we have done it. We all knew as much as you the first time we did it and we made it through! :D Just trying to encourage you not to be intimidated if you have the option to try yourself.
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      Thank you all so very much for your encouragement and support!

      The good news is that I heard from my Cat's Vet and she's willing to supply the Baytril (sp.?) Injections!

      My Vet needs to know 1) the Dosage. 2) How many shots Lola will need / over what period of time?. 3) Also told me to be sure of the injection site.

      BTW- She's still in the Pond, and the current water temp. is 76* I used the salinity pen and it is .4%. Should I continue adding on up to .6% or doesn't it really matter beyond the.3%?
      Last edited by DarkStar; 09-13-2018 at 02:35 PM.
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    18. #18
      icu2's Avatar
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      Great news!

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...-Health-Sticky

      Go to part 18 for help with the actual injection (although YouTube probably has many good examples
      of how to inject) and part 19 for help with dosage and application.

      I don't know about the salt but there is a section in the ER Health Sticky that might help... covered in part 14.
      --Steve
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    19. #19
      cindy's Avatar
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      Agree with Steve. Look at the chart and have the vet load the syringes. Sedate and put on a piece of wet plastic on 2 rolled towels to cradle. I work on the ground so no chance of slipping off. I never have help. Let me find a picture of injection site.

      Try to get under a scale. Just remember to aim the needle toward the mouth.


      Here you go, Dr. Loh! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXVnvJ-diII
      Last edited by cindy; 09-13-2018 at 04:10 PM.
      My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."


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    20. #20
      DarkStar is offline Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Great news!
      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...-Health-Sticky
      Go to part 18 for help with the actual injection (although YouTube probably has many good examples
      of how to inject) and part 19 for help with dosage and application.

      I don't know about the salt but there is a section in the ER Health Sticky that might help... covered in part 14.
      Thanks for the links to Health Sticky, Steve! Yes, I agree about Cindy. I commented early on in this thread - she's A-mazing!
      You're all pretty awesome. Over the years, time and again I've seen you come to the rescue with folks. Great group of people here!

      More questions:
      Size: How 'forgiving' is the Baytril dose? Do I have to take her out and measure her precisely? I'm not sure if the Vet is going to be here or is just going to send up the syringes (tomorrow I think). And if that's the case she may want to prep them and send them all ready rather than send the vial of Baytril (maybe why she asked the dosage).



      Quote Originally Posted by cindy View Post
      Agree with Steve. Look at the chart and have the vet load the syringes. Sedate and put on a piece of wet plastic on 2 rolled towels to cradle. I work on the ground so no chance of slipping off. I never have help. Let me find a picture of injection site.
      Try to get under a scale. Just remember to aim the needle toward the mouth.
      Here you go, Dr. Loh! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXVnvJ-diII
      re: Loading syringes.See question above. Also the sticky mentions different size syringes: "Smaller ones are used on fish which are 2" to 6". " Which should I tell her I need?

      She's a doitsu, no scales really. And what angle? Is it subcutaneous or intramuscular? What do you use to sedate? Method?


      Video was somewhat helpful, at least now I've seen an injection.

      I don't want to sound like an idiot you see, but all of this comes naturally to folks who have been doing it so it's easy to say "just do this, then do that, then do the other" easy peasy! Not so much. I hope you guys are going to be around for snap questions if I get stuck in the middle!

      About how far past her anal protrusion would the injection be? The Fish in the video doesn't have that so it's harder to tell.
      Find Something You Would Die For And Live for It.



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