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    Thread: 2018 Showa female and Kohaku male

    1. #41
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      Ok, I injected 6 koi with ovaprim. I probably screwed up on some of them, it takes practice. I did not have the angle on my white red eye kohaku, it look like it slanted skin deep. Ironically it was my 5th try, I was too worried about the scale. Also, I may have pressed the ovaprim out of a few of them. I noticed an air pocket? Next time, I will just press the injection hole as I pull out. Its 8am, I wonder what will happen in 10 hours. I want to play with my hatching jar and try to hand spawn a pair.

      As I reflect on the day, I realize my poor performance was a result of rushing. This is the first time working with a chemical base anesthetic, I always use clove oil. The chemical based Trican-S is superior to clove oil. One and a half teaspoon in 5 gallons of water will knock the koi out in less than a minute to the point where the gills stop moving. This freaked me out. I ended up diluting the anesthetic bath with the water from the Japanese koi net. At first I prepared a separate container of fresh water and placed them in there and hand carried them to the bath, so I wouldn't dilute the bath. I found out latter this anesthetic bath can be diluted, it just take a little longer for them to go under. Once they knock out there is no rush, they are out. Its also easier to bring them back with fresh water. I injected them in the water, next time I will take them out, dry them up and take my time.
      Last edited by Roger; 09-21-2018 at 02:32 AM.

    2. #42
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      I'm watching with interest in what happens next. I'm not familiar with spawn-inducing injections, but for some injections, it may not necessary to anesthetize them. One can put them in a big empty plastic bag, then with both knees around the koi's head, and one hand holding down the tail firmly, inject them in the side. I guess the risk of damaging a scale may be greater, and the side may not be where this or that particular injection needs to go.

      I've only used clove oil a few times years ago, when taking gill samples to check for parasites. It can be kind of spooky, as some koi are hard to wake up, but they came through okay. I don't like to do it.

    3. #43
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      Matt, the spot where I inject them is red because the needle was not the right size, it was too wide. Also, I did not really study the depth of the injection on the training video, so I may have gone too deep. This always happen to me, I always learn the hard way.

      This article list the needle size to use and certain other factors in the selection of fish to use. It also has a list for why my fish did not spawn. I wish I found this information before I started. http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa161

      Ovaprim will work successfully only in fish that are sexually mature, properly conditioned, and in the final stage of maturation. Might as well trigger the spawn without Ovaprim.
      Last edited by Roger; 09-22-2018 at 04:46 PM.

    4. #44
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      I injected the last of the ovaprim in the black showa and paired it with a large mature Dainichi Marin male Kohaku. I injected it under the vent fin this time. I anestized the showa and placed it on a flat surface, dried it off, and observed the area under the vent fin. I noticed when I lift the vent fin there was a bone that lift up under the skin. I poked the new skinner 23 gauge needle a quarter of an inch right under the bone in a hollow pocket, and when I started pushing in the one and a half ml of Ovaprim, nothing overflowed out. I pulled out and placed my finger on the injected area, it was a perfect operation. I could see the tip of the two egg sacks protruding from the vent that's how fat she was. I did not inject the male.

      A few hours latter the male seem to be acting really aggressive, he was swimming around in fast tight circles and splashing around, but they did not spawn until the night or early am. I found out in the morning. I will move the mats into the long 300 gallon wooden tank and leave the excess to hatch in the blue tank. I see a lot of unfertilized eggs, I hope some of them hatch. I have my doubts because I ran out of ovaprim, and did not inject the male.

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      Last edited by Roger; 10-01-2018 at 03:48 PM.

    5. #45
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      I think spawning is temperature related because I placed two small skinny 12 inch showa runts in the blue tank to keep the biological filter in tune. A couple of days latter they drop eggs, both of them were females, so eggs did not hatch. I came to the conclusion, the blue tank is situated on the left side of my house where I had a previous successful spawn a few years back. Also the long wooden tank that I was trying to spawn my koi in is foam insulated on the sides like a giant cooler.

      I was so worried about egg impaction, I gave it another try with ovaprim and the blue tank. When eggs are protruding from the vent, something must be done. I am relieved to be able to save my black showa from the dreaded death by egg impaction.

    6. #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
      I injected the last of the ovaprim in the black showa and paired it with a large mature Dainichi Marin male Kohaku.

      the male seem to be acting really aggressive, he was swimming around in fast tight circles and splashing around I ran out of ovaprim, and did not inject the male.
      Sounds like the male had the attitude. Hope it took. Are those two in any of the photos above? Is the "black showa" the female in post #16?

    7. #47
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      It sure would be easier if the koi you pair up would just do their duty .
      Every koi I have did it but the two I wanted too



    8. #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      Is the "black showa" the female in post #16?
      Matt, that's the one. It inherited the body and white skin from the Omosako female parent. The male parent was from the Dainichi Sakura bloodline. The Sakura body type look different, its bone structure make them grow bigger.

      I will only keep black fry, I am not sure how the genetic traits will play out on this spawn. However, I will instinctively know which bloodline they pull from.
      Last edited by Roger; 10-02-2018 at 01:21 PM.

    9. #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by delbert View Post
      It sure would be easier if the koi you pair up would just do their duty .
      Every koi I have did it but the two I wanted too
      Delbert, living in the tropics, and kind of slow witted, I lost a lot of home bred immature females from egg impaction. This is the first time I used Ovaprim and was able to save one of them.

      The problem I have with the ovaprim is the instructions say we need to take a sample of the eggs out with a small egg tube and examine it under a microscope. I don't have a microscope and have never stuck a tube up my koi before, so I can only go by the way they look. I saw a vet on youtube try to save a gold fish with egg impaction. The first inject to the gold fish stomach made some of the eggs mature enough to come out, but it was still bloated and he had to inject it again.

      I think the first dose of ovaprim I gave my female started the maturing process and the second one a few weeks latter did the trick. I conclude, ovaprim helps koi eggs to mature. However, it may take two or more injections two weeks apart before the female is ready to release her eggs.
      Last edited by Roger; 10-03-2018 at 04:55 PM.

    10. #50
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      Okay, I can relax a bit, I can see a handful of fry clinging to the sides, so they started hatching on the third day. The bio filter in both tanks has cleared the massive amount of ammonia and nitrite after the surge of foam and scum from the other day. I covered the water intake in both tanks with quarter inch blue rock, way before the spawn. One of the main problems I had in the past was the foam filters would get clogged on the submersible pumps or water intake. The blue rock chips seem to be solving this problem. Furthermore, I have made technical advancements with bio filtration. This is the first time my bio filter could handle the initial spawning load.

      The next issue will be what to feed them. I started a daphnia culture, but it is not large enough to support the fry. It needs more time. I will work on this problem today.

      I hope I get show quality red and black patterns this time around. I won't keep any with red color on fin or under its body.
      Last edited by Roger; 10-03-2018 at 05:05 PM.

    11. #51
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      Great to hear some have hatched Roger. Hope there will be many more.

      I've certainly heard of egg impaction, but have not had an issue with it. I think the only deaths related to spawning were when PH crashed during a flock spawn after a big rain. I lost two males before I could get enough baking soda in there. But I consider myself fortunate, since if I had not seen this, they may have all died.

      Whenever you get time to post a pic of the kohaku male, we'd like to see him. But I know you are kind of busy right now.

    12. #52
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      I saw some fry in the filter, so they are getting through the rocks in the long wooden tank. Maybe I did not put enough rocks on the submersible pump. The pump water flow is 1,200 which is two times stronger than the blue tank and it has less rocks. I am a little concerned because I don't see a lot of fry, maybe they got sucked in. The strong circular current brings most of the lose particles to the pump.

      They could be hiding under the spawning mat. I'll give them another day before I take the mats out. I see a lot of dead eggs.
      Last edited by Roger; 10-04-2018 at 06:45 AM.

    13. #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
      I saw some fry in the filter, so they are getting through the rocks in the long wooden tank. Maybe I did not put enough rocks on the submersible pump. The pump water flow is 1,200 which is two times stronger than the blue tank and it has less rocks. I am a little concerned because I don't see a lot of fry, maybe they got sucked in. ...
      Even though I use a 3200 GPH pump, I get by with putting it in a 5 gal bucket full of holes that I wrap with a double layer of cheesecloth. But, that's in 1800 gallons, so the water cycles about 1.8 times per hour. I don't know how many fry get into the filter, but big numbers don't.

      Even though you are using a 1200 gallon pump, the water cycles much faster, about 4 times per hour, if I understand correctly that your tank is 300 gal. Maybe cheap a 300-500 GPH would help for a while until the fry become better at avoiding the intake.

    14. #54
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      Matt, the hatch rate was very low in both tanks, I see a total of less than 100, with one or two black fry. I did not see any fry in the blue tank's bio filter with a 600 gallon pump, and 12 inch of gravel covering the intake, most of the eggs turned into brown debris.

      I put more gravel on the 1,200 gallon pump, but it did not help, I saw a few fry in the bio filter the next day.

      I still like the gravel idea, but the pump size need to be brought down to 600 gallon. It worked in the blue tank; however, the blue tank is indirectly pumping water back into the pond from the rubbermaid trash bin, so the concept is a little different. It doesn't have the big air pocket case of the Laguna pump. The case, cord, and return tube create gaps in the gravel's water flow.

      I'll try to hand spawn a pair on my next event, but I don't know when things will line up.
      Last edited by Roger; 10-05-2018 at 04:37 PM.

    15. #55
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      I started feeding the free swimming fry boiled egg yolks and ground up tropical flake food. They so tiny with low numbers scattered around the sides, its hard to feed small numbers, there is too much excess food to spread around. I feel like I m feeding the bio filter instead of the fry.

    16. #56
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
      I started feeding the free swimming fry boiled egg yolks and ground up tropical flake food. They so tiny with low numbers scattered around the sides, its hard to feed small numbers, there is too much excess food to spread around. I feel like I m feeding the bio filter instead of the fry.
      I always feel that way when there's a new hatch, even when there are a lot of them. They don't seem very good at identifying food. So I scatter it all around them to try to get it in to them. Probably most of it just goes to the filter.

      Glad to hear you are thinking of a "next event". Hopefully the big numbers will show up.

    17. #57
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      The small numbers may be a blessing in disguise. I moved about 10 black fry into a small 30 gallon daphnia tank. Their stomach look fat, hopefully this will give them a jump start.

      I found a stray fry in my small 20 gallon duck weed tank. After the left over koi eggs started to break down into brown muck, I siphoned some of it out to use as duck weed fertilizer. I found him in the duck weed tank maybe four days latter. It was bigger than all the rest and did not get fed while he was left for dead. I wonder what it was eating? I see a lot of red worms in the muck, maybe it ate that. After seeing that, I left the egg muck in my long 300 gallon tank, along with with maybe 5 or 6 fry that I couldn't catch. There is a lot of red worms in the muck, but the worms look to big for them. I am not sure if they can eat them yet.
      Last edited by Roger; 10-10-2018 at 10:20 PM.

    18. #58
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      That big fry pulled from the muck is funny. It reminds me of the time I found some flock spawn fry in my two stage filter system. The second stage filter had a dozen or so that were 1"-1.5". The first stage filter, which was much dirtier, had a dozen or so that were 2"-3", same age, but twice as big.

    19. #59
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      Last night, I checked the water parameters of my 30 gallon daphnia tank and freaked out. There were traces of ammonia and nitrite, and zero KH. It probably came from the 15 black fry I put in the other day. I had to put in some baking soda to build up the KH. I was worried about the daphnia reaction to the baking soda, but I still put it in because I know the nitrifying bacteria won't go to work with out it. I had one sponge filter that I switch to plain air bubbles when I feed the daphnia from day to night. I put in two more large sponge filters rated for 150 gallons of water each and got rid of the ammonia, but with that came the nitrite spike.

      In the morning, I was relieved to see my daphnia culture still alive, but the nitrite level was very high, so I did a 50% water change. I use the water coming out from my aquaculture planter. I had a hard time hatching these daphnia eggs. They started hatching when I used rain water. They don't like the chemicals used in the water from my tap. However, they don't mind cycled aged water. They can tolerate high nitrate ,but can't handle high ammonia and nitrite.

      I will leave the sponge filters running even when I feed the daphnia. I won't switch them out to plain bubbles,until the nitrite clears. Maybe tomorrow, those sponge filters has already cycled from the fry egg load. The daphnia seem to be able to handle the bubbles from three sponge filters.

      In addition, I have two 5 gallons and two 25 gallon daphnia cultures with air bubbles, in case any of them crash. I'll move two 5 gallon cultures to a 100 gallon tank, once I figure them out. The newly hatch daphnia magna are tiny, I need to work out a system for water changes.

      The 15 black koi fry can't eat the adult daphnia magna yet, so they are still multiplying daily.
      Last edited by Roger; 10-12-2018 at 01:58 AM.

    20. #60
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      The black koi babies in the daphnia tank didn't get much bigger than the kohaku babies in the blue tank, so I put them back together. Furthermore, the water quality in the blue tank is much better, at least I don't have to worry.

      I figured out why the kh was zero in my daphnia tank, the rain water here has zero kh and I am using rain water. I've done some research on dapnia and they do need
      some calcium or carbonate hardness for their shells.

      Adding baking soda to the water did not kill them.

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      Last edited by Roger; 10-15-2018 at 07:16 PM.

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