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    Thread: Koi died from White Bread

    1. #1
      CaChepRau is offline Junior Member
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      Koi died from White Bread

      Hi everyone,

      Last week some kids fed my Koi fishes (which I had for 10 years) white bread sandwiches, now 2 died + one swimming with belly up.

      In the emergency I took the rest out of the pond and temporarily keeping them in large containers set up with air pump with dose of API Melafix and API Salt (suggested from the loocal pet shops)

      Any help will be much much appreciated.



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    2. #2
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      Welcome to Koiphen. I am sorry for your loss, and I am even more sorry for the less than helpful replies you have received so far.

      White bread will not kill koi. Was there something else in the sandwiches in addition to the bread? Did they put so much bread in the pond that it fouled the water?

      The first thing I would think of is that the bread might have polluted the water. Did you test for ammonia, nitrite, pH and KH? How large is the pond, and how many fish did you have prior to the losses? What do you have for filtration and aeration?

      The people at your local pet shop did nothing but pad their wallet. API Melafix will do nothing to help, and API salt is just extremely over-priced sodium chloride. You can get very pure and very inexpensive salt wherever they sell salt for water softeners, but until we know what really caused the deaths, salt is probably not the treatment of choice.

      White bread is low in protein, so it is not likely that bread caused a spike in ammonia. The bread could have caused a spike in carbon dioxide, which would make all of the fish lethargic and would be most dangerous to the biggest fish. If that was what caused the deaths, and if you have adequate aeration for normal conditions in your pond, the carbon dioxide would have dissipated by now, so you will never know. If the pH of the pond water at the time of the deaths was lower than usual, and if the pH rises when the water is aerated, that would be a clue that carbon dioxide was the culprit.

      There are some foods that are harmless to humans but deadly to koi. Chrysanthemum blossoms and leaves, which are used in Asian cuisine, come to mind. While harmless to humans, they are a natural source of pyrethrins, which are insecticides that are toxic to fish.

      The bottom line is that we need to look beyond the white bread to figure out what happened to your koi.

    3. #3
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      I am so sorry op. Heads would be rolling if that happened at my pond.
      I have no clue how to help them espom salt and peas is the only thing coming to mind. I hope someone with more knowledge will chime in.

    4. #4
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      I’m not too sure but
      I’ve read somewhere long ago
      That bread might contain bleached flour which can be bad for koi and not recommend as a food source

      Edit
      Google founded for me
      http://www.pondarmor.com/koi-treats-...feed-your-koi/
      Last edited by OCkoiFan; 07-29-2018 at 01:46 PM.
      M.Nguyen


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      I tend to agree with the "it's something else" theory. In the past we've fed our koi bread without any issues. That said, I wonder if maybe the problem was the quantity, that maybe it expanded in their stomachs.

    6. #6
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      I am so sorry for your loss. I worry about this type of thing happening with my koi all of the time, because we have a lot of kids in the neighborhood. The best thing to do for the children is to try to educate them about your fish about what is good and what is not good. Allow them to feed some of your Koi their regular food if that will help with their curiosity. Again, my condolences - those were lovely fish.


      I was also thinking that maybe the fish ate the bread too fast and became bloated. I have heard of people feeding koi bread with no ill effects.







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      Used to go to a park with a koi and goldfish outdoor pond. People would bring their kids and loaves of cheap white bread to feed them with. So common easily over a ton of bread a season and the fish flourished and multiplied. Got to the point the park had to prohibit feeding. I have also fed leftover bread to mine.

      Look for another cause.

    8. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by nmtsaki View Post
      I am so sorry for your loss. I worry about this type of thing happening with my koi all of the time, because we have a lot of kids in the neighborhood. The best thing to do for the children is to try to educate them about your fish about what is good and what is not good...
      Well, the best thing is not own a crazy amount of $$$$ fish. The reality is that it's just statistics whether and when something bad will befall them, self-inflicted or otherwise. We have gophers around here and while I've never heard of it, I wonder if someday one may chew through a bottom drain. Or kids throwing in dish soap because it's funny to see the amount of bubbles it makes, or a long power outage, etc, etc. Don't mentally or financially over-extend yourself and you'll be fine. Koi as another pet, and as all pet owners know, someday it sadly comes to an end. Anyone living on a farm is much more at peace with these sort of things just being part of life. Unfortunately, we're raising a generation who are raised on Disney films where nothing bad ever happens... Do the best you can and let it be.
      Last edited by kimini; 07-31-2018 at 09:59 AM.

    9. #9
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      The only thing I can think of is that since your fish is not used to white bread feeding a lot of it all at once upset the microbiota both in your fish gut and filters causing a disease process. Signs could be bloating due to "gas" in the belly, piping, a ph crash, foam. White bread easily breaks down to simple carbon compounds that are easily digestible putting biochemical processes, including those that consume oxygen, on overdrive. Much like throwing a lot vodka or sugar in the pond, it will consume dissolved oxygen almost instantly; and with the hot weather we are having, dissolved oxygen is low in the first place. Yes the biggest fish (or weakest) will likely die first because of the lower gill size/body size ratio.
      Last edited by KoiRun; 07-29-2018 at 05:47 PM.
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    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by CaChepRau View Post
      Hi everyone,

      Last week some kids fed my Koi fishes (which I had for 10 years) white bread sandwiches, now 2 died + one swimming with belly up.

      In the emergency I took the rest out of the pond and temporarily keeping them in large containers set up with air pump with dose of API Melafix and API Salt (suggested from the loocal pet shops)

      Any help will be much much appreciated.



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      I see v notch and sunken eyes in this koi.
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    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      The only thing I can think of is that since your fish is not used to white bread feeding a lot of it all at once upset the microbiota both in your fish gut and filters causing a disease process. Signs could be bloating due to "gas" in the belly, piping, a ph crash, foam. White bread easily breaks down to simple carbon compounds that are easily digestible putting biochemical processes, including those that consume oxygen, on overdrive. Much like throwing a lot vodka or sugar in the pond, it will consume dissolved oxygen almost instantly; and with the hot weather we are having, dissolved oxygen is low in the first place. Yes the biggest fish (or weakest) will likely die first because of the lower gill size/body size ratio.
      You should check out where the OP lives. It says the temperature, right this moment, is 50 degrees F. If loss of oxygen is a factor I would be surprised
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    12. #12
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      I think all this speculation does not help. In fact, it is just not necessary. This is the ER forum and I think it is OK just to say nothing, especially if you don’t know what it is. People post here for answers, if there is no answer then that is OK. Just say you don’t know or refrain from posting.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      I think all this speculation does not help. In fact, it is just not necessary. This is the ER forum and I think it is OK just to say nothing, especially if you don’t know what it is. People post here for answers, if there is no answer then that is OK. Just say you don’t know or refrain from posting.
      Correct. My apologies to the OP.
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    14. #14
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      Hi all,

      After keeping them in the containers for treatment over night, 2 more belly up this morning but the rest are quite happier now so I have returned them back to the pond.

      I have them for 12 years, the water always crystal clear with lots of water plants and sufficient bio-filters.

      I really didn't know what to do when seeing them slow swimming, gasping for air at the surface, the waste came out from them were filled with white stuff (white bread) , I did some googling and lots of ppl advise do not feed fish with bread , Bread contains yeast and when eaten by fish, it will expand and can cause constipation. And in my case, the big golden one died with a swollen tummy, when I got her body out I did some squeezing on the belly and the waste came out with white stuff.

      At the moment, they don't seem wanting to eat anything (stressed after being scooped in and out so many times I guess) so I don't feed them , just leave the air pump and the bio filter running and keep monitoring them. X my fingers that no more casualty in the next few days.

      FYI, I'm leaving in Adelaide/Australia, it is just in mid-winter (roughly lowest is 4 degree C ) so the weather is just fine. So far 1 large female (45 cm) (the golden one above) and three mid-side (30cm) have gone.

      Thanks all for the comments. I'll update in the next few days, hopefully they will be fine.

    15. #15
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      It's mid-winter in Australia, but I agreed with "... Signs could be bloating due to "gas" in the belly ..."

      Thanks Koirun

    16. #16
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      Hi Zoran, I'm not sure what "v notch and sunken eyes" meant but female already died when I took the photo.

    17. #17
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      Yeast dies early in the bread baking process. Anything on or with the bread or other things thrown into the pond? Mold on the bread? Were the fish active and eating before the incident? I heard stories of inactive fish in cool water being over fed fish food and not able to digest. There are also many videos showing koi eating fish food through holes in the ice.
      Last edited by BWG; 07-31-2018 at 08:37 AM.

    18. #18
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      I Doubt that the Koi Died From White Bread!

      Quote Originally Posted by CaChepRau View Post
      Hi all,

      After keeping them in the containers for treatment over night, 2 more belly up this morning but the rest are quite happier now so I have returned them back to the pond.

      I have them for 12 years, the water always crystal clear with lots of water plants and sufficient bio-filters.

      I really didn't know what to do when seeing them slow swimming, gasping for air at the surface, the waste came out from them were filled with white stuff (white bread) , I did some googling and lots of ppl advise do not feed fish with bread , Bread contains yeast and when eaten by fish, it will expand and can cause constipation. And in my case, the big golden one died with a swollen tummy, when I got her body out I did some squeezing on the belly and the waste came out with white stuff.

      At the moment, they don't seem wanting to eat anything (stressed after being scooped in and out so many times I guess) so I don't feed them , just leave the air pump and the bio filter running and keep monitoring them. X my fingers that no more casualty in the next few days.

      FYI, I'm leaving in Adelaide/Australia, it is just in mid-winter (roughly lowest is 4 degree C ) so the weather is just fine. So far 1 large female (45 cm) (the golden one above) and three mid-side (30cm) have gone.

      Thanks all for the comments. I'll update in the next few days, hopefully they will be fine.
      There is no magic answer. You need to get to work if you really care #1 - Answer RickF's questions post #2.

      Halt feeding until the situation is 100% under control!

      Have some fish scraped and scoped including the gills and take a picture of the gills. Especially look for the colder water parasite culprits ( Costia, then Chilodinella). The koi's immune system slows down immensely in the colder water and some of these rascals will take advantage of it.

      If you do find parasites, with your probable water temperatures, I would suggest treating the pond @ 2 ppm with potassium permangate and monitor the pond closely during the procedure.

      You have got the ball!

    19. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by CaChepRau View Post
      Hi all,

      I have them for 12 years, the water always crystal clear with lots of water plants and sufficient bio-filters.

      I really didn't know what to do when seeing them slow swimming, gasping for air at the surface, the waste came out from them were filled with white stuff (white bread) , I did some googling and lots of ppl advise do not feed fish with bread , Bread contains yeast and when eaten by fish, it will expand and can cause constipation. And in my case, the big golden one died with a swollen tummy, when I got her body out I did some squeezing on the belly and the waste came out with white stuff.

      At the moment, they don't seem wanting to eat anything (stressed after being scooped in and out so many times I guess) so I don't feed them , just leave the air pump and the bio filter running and keep monitoring them. X my fingers that no more casualty in the next few days.

      FYI, I'm leaving in Adelaide/Australia, it is just in mid-winter (roughly lowest is 4 degree C ) so the weather is just fine. So far 1 large female (45 cm) (the golden one above) and three mid-side (30cm) have gone.

      Thanks all for the comments. I'll update in the next few days, hopefully they will be fine.
      Interesting case. I hope everything is ok now.
      Instead of googling I printed an article from Journal of Comparative Physiology on glucose metabolism in fish: a review. It compares how mammals, fish - herbivores, omnivores, carnivores digest and control glucose. One of the facets which I think relates is the digestion of carbohydrates by an enzyme amylase. In fish, amylase is excreted by the pancreas. Amylase is also excreted by the fish gut microbiota. The ability to adapt amylase secretion to match dietary carbohydrate intake seems to be restricted to herbivorous and omnivorous species, while carnivores could even suffer deleterious effects. So it's not unreasonable to think that a koi, though omnivorous, used only to feeding high protein diet, like carnivores, would lack the microbes or enzymes to be able to digest a food bolus of carbohydrates. It also does not help that enzymatic activities decrease with decreasing water temperatures. If this was the case the only thing that could have saved your fish was gastric decompression/emptying (if possible in fish) at first sign of 'bowel obstruction.' Certainly the feeding parks I've been to have reasonably cheap food from a dispenser to feed their animals/fish. Foods that they are used to.
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    20. #20
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      Amylase is the enzyme that converts starch to sugar. Without amylase, the starch would not be absorbed and would be excreted in the feces. That would not be fatal. People feed Cherrios and fruit to koi all of the time With no ill effects, and they are high in carbohydrates.

      The reason it is advised not to feed bread to koi is that bread is high in calories with very little nutritional value. A single feeding, even if it is a large feeding is not a problem. It is chronic feeding that leads to nutritional deficiencies and fat accumulation.

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