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    Thread: Lost 13 kois in 1 week

    1. #1
      Phamkq is offline Junior Member
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      Lost 13 kois in 1 week

      So I went on vacation and had paid someone (hes local in San Jose, California, he works on koi ponds, maintenance and all of that) to clean the pond, trimmings and take care of the fishes. He also sold me one of his kois in late June (i think he runs a koi rescue thing as he always have new fishes for sale on Craigslist) in which it was my mistake for not quarantining it in return for a discount on pond maintenance. Prior to that I bought three kois from Nextdaykoi in early June.

      He admitted that he dosed my pond with Potassium Permangante before he left which I came home to my pond being purple because he felt that my pond needed to be dose with it weekly in small amounts as assurance (never heard this before). The kois looked fine until the next day. My pond is aerated via waterfall. Some of the kois started staying still in the corner just gasping. He said "Just prime it" and had me doing a 50% water change. Few days latert i did a 25% change and few days later i did another 25% as told to do so.

      My pond is pretty established, not too overstocked. Good filtration.

      Everytime i changed the water, i dosed with Prime. The temperature stayed around 85 degrees on average but the water was about 72 degrees on average during the day time.

      Over the course of the week, i lost four 16"-21" kois and 9 smaller sizes between 5"-10".

      Honestly i have been trying so hard to figure out what is wrong. I initially thought it was KPV just by how the kois had died (gills all brown on the exterior, red streaks on fins, eyes sunken in, signs of ick, etc...) but honestly it could be any of the other diseases as well...

      My pond parameters at the moment:
      Ammonia: .15
      Nitrite: 0
      Nitrate: ~30PPM
      PH: 8.2
      GH/KH: According to the strips (awaiting my amazon package for the liquid test by API), the water is around 180 hardness


      My questions;

      1) What the heck is going on? Did PP just destroyed my cycle and threw it off balance?
      2) KPV possibly?
      3) Why is my PH so high, this was tested during the evening at sundown
      4) My ammopnia is high and i have been watching it and just dosing with Prime daily.
      5) How do i prepare myself for Nitrite spike? I was reading about SALT, are there any guides for this?
      6) I know i should be adding baking soda to reduce my hardness? Is there a guide to how much i should use as well?
      7) My pond is about 5000 gallons, it currently is drained down to 2500 gallons so its easier to dose - does this matter? Should i put in more water?
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    2. #2
      ademink's Avatar
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      1) What the heck is going on? Did PP just destroyed my cycle and threw it off balance?
      There are a lot of factors going on right now... my guess is parasites combined w/ burned gills from PP but unsure at the moment.

      2) KPV possibly?
      KHV. I don't know.

      3) Why is my PH so high, this was tested during the evening at sundown
      Your pH is fine. Stability is what is important - not the number - and if your KH is 180 then your pH is fine because it will remain stable.

      4) My ammopnia is high and i have been watching it and just dosing with Prime daily.
      Prime causes a false-positive on tests so there is a good possibility you don't have any ammonia issues. You need to get a Seachem Ammonia Alert disk to hang in the water to figure out if you have harmful ammonia present or not.

      5) How do i prepare myself for Nitrite spike? I was reading about SALT, are there any guides for this?
      Prime protects against nitrites. If your system is already cycled then you shouldn't have a nitrite spike. If you do have nitrites present, dose w/ Prime for the full pond volume every 48 hours and your fish will be safe.

      6) I know i should be adding baking soda to reduce my hardness? Is there a guide to how much i should use as well?
      I believe you were linked to the baking soda calculator in another thread. It is in a link at the top of this forum. Your KH should stay 150 or above. You can add BS accordingly to maintain this amount.

      7) My pond is about 5000 gallons, it currently is drained down to 2500 gallons so its easier to dose - does this matter? Should i put in more water?
      Greater water volume will help improve water quality b/c you have the same number of fish in more water.

      Gasping in the corner sounds like burned gills from the PP and lack of oxygen. I have personally never used PP but I do know that you need to know what you are doing and not leave the fish unattended. I will let others add their thoughts.

      Was the skin rough on your koi that died?
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    3. #3
      Phamkq is offline Junior Member
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      I believe the gills were rough if i can recall.

      Does microbe lift help?

      I also read mix reviews on the seachem amonnia disks via amazon? But i will definitely order it at the moment.

      What are the current measures i should do? any precautions? I was told to stop changing water to be safe and turn off the UV light

    4. #4
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      There are a lot of MicrobeLift products, you'll need to be more specific.

      With your nitrate reading, I think your filters will take care of the ammonia without much of a nitrite spike. If you get a nitrite reading that lasts more than 12 hours, then I would add salt. There is a calculator link on the Main page for adding salt. You'll only need to add enough to take it to a little over .1. You need to add more air to your pond before you add any salt as that will lower the oxygen in the pond.

      I agree with Andrea that this is likely due to (possible) parasites with a serious issue with the PP usage. If you have a 5k pond, you need more aeration than a waterfall. This time of year with warmer water temps, there is not as much oxygen in the water. PP should always be used with extra aeration and again, warmer water temps were not your friend either.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

      I'll say something when I feel I have something worth saying. I'm not a fan of flapping my lips just because they are there.

    5. #5
      Phamkq is offline Junior Member
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      i was thinking of using Eco Labs 971047 10PLG4 Microbe Lift PL Bacteria.

      That is weird as i read that PP is used to treat bacterial infection? I did notice that one of my fish that died had white spots on its body as well.

      Should i treat the entire pond? What should my next few steps be?

    6. #6
      OCkoiFan's Avatar
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      Tell us more about your system
      A good filtration and 5k volume should not have ammonia reading and will not need any bacteria enhance products
      M.Nguyen


    7. #7
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Maybe I am missing something here. How/where did you say you are dealing with a bacterial issue? I've seen the pale gills and mortalities.

      PP is useful for a number of things, including nuking all bacteria which would be good and bad bacteria. Some still use it for parasites but there are more effective easier to dose medications that treat parasites.

      Let's get back to why the person added PP. What was the reason, how much did he add? If your pond was still purple when you got home, that means the PP was still oxidizing whatever was in the pond.
      One of the first things I would recommend for your koi is to get better aeration. I listed the reasons in my previous post. If they were in that level of PP for an extended period of time, the mortalities could be because of that. Increasing the aeration will help them when their gills have been damaged.

      It could be that there was a parasite issue, bacterial issue or worst case, a viral issue like KHV. We simply don't know and it would be impossible for us to say over the internet. The obvious thing that does appear to be a serious issue is the level of PP used with inadequate aeration, IMO.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

      I'll say something when I feel I have something worth saying. I'm not a fan of flapping my lips just because they are there.

    8. #8
      Phamkq is offline Junior Member
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      Everything is sucked up via the bottom drain --> pump's net basket --> UV light (turned off) --> biological filters (filter mats, bioballs, carbon mats) --> down the waterfall

      The guy apparently said its good to add some every week (i have never heard of this but i trusted his judgement). He said he added a high dosage at first and turned off the biological filter to be safe for 3-4 hours (water was still sitting in the filter), once I got home, the water was slightly purpleish but i could still see at least 1 feet in.

      I just ordered the Tetra Pond APK100 Air Pump Kit (For Ponds Up To 5000 Gallons) and hoping it could change it up.

    9. #9
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      I'm not adverse to using PP occasionally. I have used it. What concerns me is that it appears he left active PP in your pond unattended. That is a big no no. We know it was a high dose but we don't have the particulars on it. A safer way to do PP treatments is a series of lower doses. When the first dose is spent, the next dose is added and you keep the koi in the active PP for a set period of time. The problem with high doses is that it is incredibly easy to have hotspots. Areas in the water where the dose is very strong because it hasn't mixed in the pond well. With only the waterfall as aeration, I think that was likely an issue.

      As I mentioned, PP is an oxidizer. While it is active (any version of the purple color, even a hint of pink/purple) it will continue to oxidize whatever is in the pond. The gasping you mentioned sounds like they had/have gill damage. Anything that makes it easier for them to breath now is a good thing. Don't skimp on the flow to your waterfall. I'm glad you have an air pump coming. Summer temps in San Jose can get very warm, I used to live north of you. I would suggest you use the air pump when your water is over 72 degrees and any time you use medications. Aeration is always a good thing when doing a treatment in the pond.

      Going forward, you could still have an issue but I would not recommend any treatments until you have the air pump installed. If their gills are compromised, they need the added air to be able to survive medications. As I said before, even salt will lower the oxygen level in the pond.
      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

      I'll say something when I feel I have something worth saying. I'm not a fan of flapping my lips just because they are there.

    10. #10
      Thumper Dunker is offline Member
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      [QUOTE=Marilyn;2679827]I'm not adverse to using PP occasionally. I have used it. What concerns me is that it appears he left active PP in your pond unattended. That is a big no no. We know it was a high dose but we don't have the particulars on it. A safer way to do PP treatments is a series of lower doses. When the first dose is spent, the next dose is added and you keep the koi in the active PP for a set period of time. The problem with high doses is that it is incredibly easy to have hotspots. Areas in the water where the dose is very strong because it hasn't mixed in the pond well. With only the waterfall as aeration, I think that was likely an issue.

      As I mentioned, PP is an oxidizer. While it is active (any version of the purple color, even a hint of pink/purple) it will continue to oxidize whatever is in the pond. The gasping you mentioned sounds like they had/have gill damage. Anything that makes it easier for them to breath now is a good thing. Don't skimp on the flow to your waterfall. I'm glad you have an air pump coming. Summer temps in San Jose can get very warm, I used to live north of you. I would suggest you use the air pump when your water is over 72 degrees and any time you use medications. Aeration is always a good thing when doing a treatment in the pond.

      Going forward, you could still have an issue but I would not recommend any treatments until you have the air pump installed. If their gills are compromised, they need the added air to be able to survive medications. As I said before, even salt will lower the oxygen level in the pond.[/QUOTE


      Ditto on what she said and get another pond guy.

    11. #11
      SeaSideAquatics, LLC is offline Supporting Member
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      if you look at one of the dead koi, the eyes sunk in, seem like gills problem.

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    12. #12
      Slapshot is offline Member
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      PP can be very dangerous. You have to use it carefully and always look for signs of struggle from the fish. If the water was still purple when you got home I suspect he used to much and burned the gills. When I have used it the purple is gone in 24 hours. Did he say why he was using it, and so often?


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    13. #13
      Phamkq is offline Junior Member
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      Lost four more fishes the last two days.

      Are kois gills cover/outside skin suppose to be hard? The eyes were sunken in

      My test kit says my PH is 8.2 while the seachem pond disc thing says it is 7.6ish... which one is right?

      I bought the pump as well, hooked up three air balls

      My parameters today:
      Ammonia: 0.15ppm ish
      Nitrite: 0
      Nitrate: 10ppm
      Kh: Doctor foster and smith is taking forever to ship my gh/kh test kit but from my terrapins test strips, it is at least 150
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    14. #14
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      Can you describe the feel of the fish that you have taken out. Slimy, normal, dry, scratchy, sandpaper, other? Do you have or can you order some Proform C, or other formalin/malachite green formulation for treatment of parasites. The main reason for not bringing this up earlier is with the use of PP, there should not be a need for Proform treatment, but the signs and symptoms make me think costia.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      Phamkq is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      Can you describe the feel of the fish that you have taken out. Slimy, normal, dry, scratchy, sandpaper, other? Do you have or can you order some Proform C, or other formalin/malachite green formulation for treatment of parasites. The main reason for not bringing this up earlier is with the use of PP, there should not be a need for Proform treatment, but the signs and symptoms make me think costia.
      I have treated the entire pond with Melafix today (fingers crossed). I have never used Proform C, do they sell it on amazon?

      The koi's outside skin where the gill is was very rough, almost like sandpaper rock hard. The body was just like any fish, slimy but not excessive fungus-like.

    16. #16
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      They sell Microbe Lift Broad Spectrum Disease Treatment on Amazon which I understand is the same thing.



    17. #17
      ademink's Avatar
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      I would highly recommend removing the melafix from the water. It does not cure anything and actually costs the Lois hills, as it is an oil.

      You can use BSDT as recommended above, Proform, Terminate...any malachite green and formalin mixture.
      Andrea
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    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by Phamkq View Post
      I have treated the entire pond with Melafix today (fingers crossed). I have never used Proform C, do they sell it on amazon?

      The koi's outside skin where the gill is was very rough, almost like sandpaper rock hard. The body was just like any fish, slimy but not excessive fungus-like.
      Melafix won't do it. Smells good but that's about all. It's made from "essential oils" from the Cajeput Tree, and being oil based
      it can coat the gills. But it won't kill costia, if that's what they have.

      Amazon:
      https://www.amazon.com/Proform-C-Spe...ords=Proform+c

      But like Mike said, I've used this many times and works well:
      https://www.amazon.com/Eco-Labs-BSDT...ords=Proform+c
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    19. #19
      Phamkq is offline Junior Member
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      Thank you so much! I have placed the order - too bad it is not on prime so it’s a waiting and praying game now :/

      Should I keep the Melafix in the water for now?

      Should I do water changes?

    20. #20
      ademink's Avatar
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      No, you should not keep the Melafix in the water. Remove w/ water changes.

      I think you have some decent pond stores in your city. You may want to Google and see if someone has something on hand...they likely will.
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



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