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  • Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
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    Thread: How much shower bio media for 12k gallon pond

    1. #61
      wfhoffmaniii is offline Senior Member
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      I'll add my pond in as well although I DO use UV currently. I've been curious about this topic for several years. While I seem to have found a solution for my pond I'm always looking for better ways.

      Specifically answer (now added questions):
      -how much bio and the type of bio (media): 2 S/G filters - one S/G feeds 2 CuF feather rock, one feeds UV.
      -type of filtration(s) and maintenance routine - weekly cleaning of S/G and baskets (pre pump and skimmer)
      -sun exposure - at least 6 hours filtered light about 4 hours.
      -turn over rate for the size pond - 3.8x g/h
      -type of food (does it contain probiotics?) Dr. Foster and Smith winter/weatgerm
      -do you add beneficial bacteria? - no
      -do you routinely use algaecide to control GWA? - no I use 55W UV in the outflow from one S/G filter.
      -how much water change weekly? 20% from filter cleaning
      -do you practice of flow-through - no
      -do you run your filters even in the winter? - no - Northern climate and filtration not enclosed
      -Nitrate level - I not normally detect - I do see some when I'm having an excursion because of hit to bio filter.

      The UV is 1 year old at this point. not sure how strong it is. I also routinely fight string algae at beginning of year until bio is fully developed. I have plants in waterfall/stream and in two small sections along walls of pond. There is significant flow behind and under block walls which might be anaerobic.

      Bill

    2. #62
      Essex Koi is offline Senior Member
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      I’ve tried asking manufacturers here in the UK as to what their showers can provide in terms of feed rates or pond size. One said that they only recommend it as additional filtration...despite their website saying it can be used as standalone filtration. Very cagey answers as I don’t think they’ve researched it enough (best case scenario) or they know it’s not that great (worst case scenario).
      Main pond 4000 US Gallon, 22 Koi. Oase Proficlear Premium + Bio Module, Bitron 120 w UVC, Bakki Shower, Dura 7+ ashp. Grow on tank 600 Gallons with Eazypod Automatic and 70 litre K1 biochamber.

    3. #63
      coolwon is online now Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
      There are only a few ways I know about to get 0 nitrate consistently with fish present. Continuous in-flow of nitrate-free water at a rate far more than 10% per day, stocking at an extremely low rate, a sophisticated de-nitrification system as is used in laboratory conditions or a faulty test kit. If none of these apply to your situation, it would be great to learn what is occurring.

      The probiotics in Saki Hikari have nothing to do with whatever is going on in your pond. I know many who use it exclusively and all I know have some level of nitrate even with continuous in-flows, etc.
      Hi Mike M

      Do Manky Sankes anerobic nitrate filters work?

      Garfield
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    4. #64
      MikeM's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
      Hi Mike M

      Do Manky Sankes anerobic nitrate filters work?

      Garfield
      Anoxic (not anaerobic) filters are theoretically effective in removal of ammonia and reduction of nitrate. The issues are about practical application of the concept. I have heard/read different thoughts on how many biocenosis baskets are needed to handle the ammonia released by a single koi. One fellow did a lot of calculations and concluded that one square foot basket was needed for every two pounds of fish to obtain a reduction of nitrate levels by 50% in a moderately fed pond. I think Manky Sanke suggests one basket per adult koi. But, there is a lot of difference between a 20-inch adult koi and a 32-inch adult koi. Deciding what is 'moderate feeding', 'light feeding' or 'heavy feeding' leaves lots of room for issues. Since the biocenosis baskets have to be kept where the koi cannot root in them, and cannot have algae or debris gunking up the 'flow' through the baskets, they are best placed in a separate 'anoxic filter basin' near the pond for convenience, and accessible to get rid of settlement that occurs and keep the baskets from getting gunked up. The basin should be covered so there is no light to encourage algae blocking the flow through the media. For somebody who has 15 koi which are 20-inches each, according to the 'standard calculator' they need a 30 square foot basin to hold the baskets. When they koi grow to 24 inches, at least 60 square feet is needed. One 32 inch koi would need 20 baskets. The laterite required for that one 32-inch koi would cost about $200 (kitty litter part is cheap) and gets replaced every 3-4 years. My pond, with 16 larger koi, would require over 300 baskets to obtain a 50% lowering of nitrate levels.

      Increase water changes from 10% to 20% and you get the same results as the theoretical anoxic filter system without constructing a separate basin and without the work of maintaining the basin, etc. And, the results are real, not theoretical. I think we all know that in practice none of us do all the work necessary to get the most out of the systems we have even when it supposedly "just takes a few minutes".

      I am not aware of anyone who has successfully used anoxic filtration on a koi pond. Those who have posted about it have kept their regular filtration running and performing their usual water changes, and cannot say whether adding anoxic filtration made any measurable difference..... but, I do not know anyone who added a 300 square foot basin or larger to really attempt true implementation of the concept. If someone did, they would still need to do water changes. Nitrate is not the only bio-contaminant. It is just the one we can measure easily with a test kit.

    5. #65
      BWG is offline Senior Member
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      There have been many examples of successful anoxic filtration. Most are planted systems. Often wondered if the plant aspect is doing most of the work. People who like growing water plants don't mind the extra basin. Using a small amount of Ironite instead of laterite cuts this cost.

    6. #66
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      In healthy waters nitrogen is limited. In nitrogen rich ponds, algae will outcompete plants for N. In the dark/shade heterotrophs will outcompete algae for N.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    7. #67
      coolwon is online now Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
      Hi Mike M

      Do Manky Sankes anerobic nitrate filters work?

      Garfield
      I am talking about the airtight O2 free PVC pipe filters bolted to the wall. They are filled with a media for the Anerobic bacteira to live on and the nitrate laden pond water is dribbled over the media. The nitrate hungary anerobic bacteria feed on the nitrate and slowly reduce the levels of nitrate in the pond water which is being returned to the pond.
      A very slow process I believe.
      Peter Waddington mentions the process in his Koi Kitchi Book and has a rough sketch drawing of the filter.
      Mention getting rid of the nitrates and it's always water changes.
      Not easy with a lot of water.

      Garfield
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    8. #68
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      Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
      I am talking about the airtight O2 free PVC pipe filters bolted to the wall. They are filled with a media for the Anerobic bacteira to live on and the nitrate laden pond water is dribbled over the media. The nitrate hungary anerobic bacteria feed on the nitrate and slowly reduce the levels of nitrate in the pond water which is being returned to the pond.
      A very slow process I believe.
      Peter Waddington mentions the process in his Koi Kitchi Book and has a rough sketch drawing of the filter.
      Mention getting rid of the nitrates and it's always water changes.
      Not easy with a lot of water.
      Garfield
      I am not aware of anyone who has used an airtight O2 free PVC pipe filter bolted to the pond wall filled with a media for the Anerobic bacteria on a Koi pond.

    9. #69
      coolwon is online now Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
      I am not aware of anyone who has used an airtight O2 free PVC pipe filter bolted to the pond wall filled with a media for the Anaerobic bacteria on a Koi pond.
      Correction, the PVC BIG PIPE filter or filters are bolted on to a suitable out of sight around the corner wall. Not in the pond.

      I have most of the work completed. I will need to get 3 of 4 PVC lids machined skimmed.

      I overlooked the fact that I was mixing Imperial and metric piping when I PVC welded the lids out of short pieces of the piping I used.
      Last edited by coolwon; 06-19-2018 at 08:21 PM.
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    10. #70
      MikeM's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
      I am talking about the airtight O2 free PVC pipe filters bolted to the wall. They are filled with a media for the Anerobic bacteira to live on and the nitrate laden pond water is dribbled over the media. The nitrate hungary anerobic bacteria feed on the nitrate and slowly reduce the levels of nitrate in the pond water which is being returned to the pond.
      A very slow process I believe.
      Peter Waddington mentions the process in his Koi Kitchi Book and has a rough sketch drawing of the filter.
      Mention getting rid of the nitrates and it's always water changes.
      Not easy with a lot of water.

      Garfield
      I had not read his postings on anaerobic filtration. What I found concerned a trickle filter like JR Reilly posted a great deal about on Koi Bito years ago. The idea is to have very long cylinders packed with media through which a trickle of water is passed. There is enough oxygen in the in-coming trickle to have nitrifiers at work creating nitrate in the top portion of the media, but the trickle is small enough that all the oxygen gets used up, creating anaerobic conditions in the rest of the cylinder (tower). Anaerobes then go to work, converting nitrate into nitrogen gas. This works only if there is a long enough cylinder and small enough trickle so anaerobic conditions are created, and the water has to be sufficiently free of particulates to avoid blockages that would impede flow altogether, and to prevent the cylinder from becoming a place of decomposition producing hydrogen sulfide and other noxious stuff. Manky explains that this sort of trickle tower takes a long time to establish and recommends that initially the flow should be the smallest trickle of water. After several weeks (usual experience establishing bio is around 6 weeks, so I suppose that long or longer) the exiting water is tested. When the out-flow shows zero nitrate, the in-flow can be increased a little. This testing process is continued every few weeks, with the trickle increased until a max rate that produces nitrate-free water is established. The exiting water may have a barely detectable level of nitrate and still be considered effective in reducing nitrate in the pond.

      I have not used a trickle tower of this sort. Those who followed JR's postings will recall that he had his trickle towers located indoors (in basement as I recall) so weather/temperature issues did not disrupt functioning and no exposure to sunlight (heat and UV issues). They helped lower overall nitrate levels in the pond, but did not eliminate the need for water changes. There would have to be a very large number of such towers to handle all the nitrate produced in a koi pond. These trickle towers were early used with saltwater aquaria with low stocking to eliminate nitrate. Dealing with 50 or 100 gallons of water with low feeding is a lot different than keeping such dirty fish as koi. Nonetheless, if the trickle amounts to 10% of the pond volume over the course of a week, it can lower nitrate by as much as a 10% water change.... if properly operated with no external influences disrupting the anaerobes' activity.

      Whether it is cost-effective and practical in any particular situation is something the individual hobbyist has to figure out for themselves. For most folks, probably not. For those driven to get maximum water quality, cost is not much of an issue and they'll figure out how to make it function in their situation. Someone affected by strict water restrictions or high pricing of water may find more benefit since it provides a way to cut back on water changes some. A constant in-flow of fresh water gives the same results, with greater in-flow possible as long as chlorine removal is addressed.

      As I posted above regarding anoxic filtration, do not get the idea that nitrate removal is the sole goal. Nitrate is what we talk about because it is what we can detect with simple test kits. It is the main bio-waste produced by fish, but there are other metabolic wastes we cannot detect with hobbyist test kits. To what extent anoxic, anaerobic or other bacteria-based systems eliminate other metabolic wastes is not something studied in a context translatable to the koi hobby (as far as I am aware). Water changes address all the issues/questions. So, when considering these sorts of bio-filtration, the comparison should be against the simple water change.

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