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    Thread: What to do with KHV carriers?

    1. #101
      abuchi123's Avatar
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      One can not diagnose KHV by symptoms or death rate (or the lack of) alone. While the ideas have merits, they are just best educated guesses. The consequences of being wrong is so high that professionals won't take that chance. The canary fish experiment is equally inconclusive. Whether the new fish lives or die really doesn't tell a whole lot.
      Last edited by abuchi123; 06-08-2018 at 02:10 AM.

    2. #102
      ccna101 is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by abuchi123 View Post
      One can not diagnose KHV by symptoms or death rate (or the lack of) alone. While the ideas have merits, they are just best educated guesses. The consequences of being wrong is so high that professionals won't take that chance. The carnary fish experiment is equally inconclusive. Whether the new fish lives or die really doesn't tell a whole lot.
      Bingo ...

      IMHO, This is where I draw the line when I enter the pet caring business . There is small risk of the professionals being wrong, but the risk we take is massive for all other koi , and -isolation-the poor fish for life is not even fun to talk about


      -d-

    3. #103
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      I would think about adding a few canary koi for a few months , then send them off to be tested.



    4. #104
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      I would bite the bullet, chalk it in the lesson learned column and clean house now.
      You have a nice pond and I assume that your taste in fish will greatly improve in short time.
      You may be attached to these fish now, but that attachment will limit how far you can go in the hobby.
      Would you be willing to buy a $2,000 fish knowing that your current herd may be carriers? I wouldn't.
      You'd basically be limiting yourself to $100 tosai for the rest of your life. Not to mention that you'd be very limited in what you can buy because you can never ever rehome any of your fish. Ever.
      5K gallons would be about 20 fish maximum. Thats max...you probably should be around 10 or 12. You'd never be able to learn anything.

      Normally I would tell you to follow your heart, but in this rare case, I'd tell you to go with your head.
      -Rain

      :I CAN'T BRING THIS SHIP INTO TRTUGA ALL BY ME ONESIES, SAVVY?:

    5. #105
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      Quote Originally Posted by rainblood View Post
      I would bite the bullet, chalk it in the lesson learned column and clean house now.
      You have a nice pond and I assume that your taste in fish will greatly improve in short time.
      You may be attached to these fish now, but that attachment will limit how far you can go in the hobby.
      Would you be willing to buy a $2,000 fish knowing that your current herd may be carriers? I wouldn't.
      You'd basically be limiting yourself to $100 tosai for the rest of your life. Not to mention that you'd be very limited in what you can buy because you can never ever rehome any of your fish. Ever.
      5K gallons would be about 20 fish maximum. Thats max...you probably should be around 10 or 12. You'd never be able to learn anything.

      Normally I would tell you to follow your heart, but in this rare case, I'd tell you to go with your head.
      If it was just me, the decision would have been simpler, but I have young kids and they are very attached to these. All 15 already have name, so I follow my heart this time.

    6. #106
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      Quote Originally Posted by friscoponder View Post
      If it was just me, the decision would have been simpler, but I have young kids and they are very attached to these. All 15 already have name, so I follow my heart this time.
      -Rain

      :I CAN'T BRING THIS SHIP INTO TRTUGA ALL BY ME ONESIES, SAVVY?:

    7. #107
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      Then again you could have one of them tested(if one dies) and end the misery of “what if?”

    8. #108
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      Quote Originally Posted by dragonfly1976 View Post
      Then again you could have one of them tested(if one dies) and end the misery of “what if?”
      that's the plan. However, base on previous posts, even if the test came back negative, it would not have cleared the others.
      Last edited by friscoponder; 06-07-2018 at 05:05 PM.

    9. #109
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      Given your last post, I'll chime in. Not much of what has been repeated has been accurate of the saga I went through with my tosai. I'd say if you bother testing, you need to do it right (meaning multiple tests). I didn't do enough and it left more questions that fanned the flames. I had a mass die off of tosai. The first there is a thread here about SU. I noticed it had a bruise/hemorrage when it arrived all were isolated in QT salted at 0.3 and at 75F. It had no other symptons (i.e. fungus or read streaks etc, nothing on a scrape). It dies shortly after (2 days?) (gills were good) and I had some flashing of the others. Still nothing on a scrape. I had another start to look bad (lethargic, head down) about 24-48 hours later, I see more hemorrages and it is dead in 24 hours or so. Meanwhile I had done water changes and a pro-form C treatment for the flashing. After pro-form C we did oxolinic acid at 0.6 salt. 3rd tosai starts isolating no other external signs. Starts to get a slight pinkish blush, but it is a tancho and they are more visible anyway. Next koi taken out had yellowish gill lesions. I froze these 3. I am left with two nice Murata kohaku at this point. I decide I should do KHV testing since nothing on a scrape and nothing slowing this down. We decide on another pro-form C treatment at higher dosage and I finish with two fluke treatments. One of the kohaku starts isolating and is dead about 24 hours later.
      By now I have researched KHV testing and know I need to send the whole fish on ice next morning air. I send the koi to UGA for testing. I have one koi left. What to do? I don't want to contaminate my pond but the my koi is better than any in the pond. Start searching about confirmation testing. Found another lab (RAL) that said sample preservation wasn't needed and I could send dry sterile swabs by USPS (first koi cost $90 shipping to UGA). I take two swabs of the 3 thawed frozen fish (mostly of the gills). I did not test each of these three fish. Meanwhile UGA does full necropsy and takes samples from internal organs. I get a positive KHV from UGA. A few hours later I get a negative on the swabs from RAL. Relayed all this to the dealer. Still no real answer. Meanwhile I speak to several experts and the co-directors of the Infectious Dieseas Lab at UGA. They counsel me that getting the correct sample is half the battle and given the positive test, I should consider sterilizing everything. They counseled I was wasting money to do further testing or depend on the dealer tests as I had a positive on my system.
      So, after this long winded explanation. I agree that testing one fish and getting a negative wont say much. Testing can be expensive combined with the shipping and if you don't take enough or good enough samples, I'm not sure it is valuable to clear your pond when there were issues at the source.

    10. #110
      Riftlake is offline Senior Member
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      How would one sterilize the pond and all the equipment?

    11. #111
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      Quote Originally Posted by Riftlake View Post
      How would one sterilize the pond and all the equipment?
      My understanding is this is very effective. I've been using it to clean my QT and pond for the last
      couple years:

      https://playitkoi.com/products/virko...xoCbT4QAvD_BwE
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    12. #112
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      Quote Originally Posted by KurtG View Post
      Given your last post, I'll chime in. Not much of what has been repeated has been accurate of the saga I went through with my tosai. I'd say if you bother testing, you need to do it right (meaning multiple tests). I didn't do enough and it left more questions that fanned the flames. I had a mass die off of tosai. The first there is a thread here about SU. I noticed it had a bruise/hemorrage when it arrived all were isolated in QT salted at 0.3 and at 75F. It had no other symptons (i.e. fungus or read streaks etc, nothing on a scrape). It dies shortly after (2 days?) (gills were good) and I had some flashing of the others. Still nothing on a scrape. I had another start to look bad (lethargic, head down) about 24-48 hours later, I see more hemorrages and it is dead in 24 hours or so. Meanwhile I had done water changes and a pro-form C treatment for the flashing. After pro-form C we did oxolinic acid at 0.6 salt. 3rd tosai starts isolating no other external signs. Starts to get a slight pinkish blush, but it is a tancho and they are more visible anyway. Next koi taken out had yellowish gill lesions. I froze these 3. I am left with two nice Murata kohaku at this point. I decide I should do KHV testing since nothing on a scrape and nothing slowing this down. We decide on another pro-form C treatment at higher dosage and I finish with two fluke treatments. One of the kohaku starts isolating and is dead about 24 hours later.
      By now I have researched KHV testing and know I need to send the whole fish on ice next morning air. I send the koi to UGA for testing. I have one koi left. What to do? I don't want to contaminate my pond but the my koi is better than any in the pond. Start searching about confirmation testing. Found another lab (RAL) that said sample preservation wasn't needed and I could send dry sterile swabs by USPS (first koi cost $90 shipping to UGA). I take two swabs of the 3 thawed frozen fish (mostly of the gills). I did not test each of these three fish. Meanwhile UGA does full necropsy and takes samples from internal organs. I get a positive KHV from UGA. A few hours later I get a negative on the swabs from RAL. Relayed all this to the dealer. Still no real answer. Meanwhile I speak to several experts and the co-directors of the Infectious Dieseas Lab at UGA. They counsel me that getting the correct sample is half the battle and given the positive test, I should consider sterilizing everything. They counseled I was wasting money to do further testing or depend on the dealer tests as I had a positive on my system.
      So, after this long winded explanation. I agree that testing one fish and getting a negative wont say much. Testing can be expensive combined with the shipping and if you don't take enough or good enough samples, I'm not sure it is valuable to clear your pond when there were issues at the source.
      Kurt, I remember seeing your thread about the first tosai with a bruise then I was too busy QTing mine, so I didn't follow through. Then I found out about KHV from another post here last Friday. I am sorry that you have to go through all that and had to defend your reputation. I appreciate what you have done.

      Thank you.

    13. #113
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      Quote Originally Posted by Riftlake View Post
      How would one sterilize the pond and all the equipment?
      I had to take a look but I saw Taro @ Kodama note in his posts during his outbreak that they took a few steps. They drained ponds then cleaned it out with Sodium Chlorite at 200ppm. After they were cleaned, ponds were left empty to bake in the sun for a bit. If they filled the pond with the Sodium Chlorite mix and ran filters, I am sure it cleaned them out while destroying any biological filtration they had going as well. After the ponds were refilled, they dumped in sodium hyperchlorite (bleach). The order of things may be out of place as the pics don't give a detailed timeline.



      Diamond Lifetime Member #95!
      Just because its not a Great Koi doesn't mean its not a Great Koi...Me circa 2013

    14. #114
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      Chlorine at 200 ppm or 500ppm (depending on type) for 1 hour - see http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vm113


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    15. #115
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      Friscoponder,

      You seem to have amazingly escaped the brunt of whatever it is that went through your system;
      and I would like to learn from it.
      Do you mind sharing details of your quarantine during that 4 weeks.

      Was it already cycled before your fish arrived? And how was it cycled?
      Initial behaviour of the fish? When did they start eating? How often and how much were they fed?
      How many gallons? What filters and filter maintenance? How much water changes?
      UV? Was it indoor or outdoor?
      What were the parameters you are measuring and parameter trends?
      What were temperature and ph and their swings?
      Any treatments prophylactic or otherwise? Salt? FMG/prazi?
      Did you try at any point to purposely 'stress out' these fish?
      Were there any health or system issues during this period and how did you correct them?

      Thanks.
      Last edited by KoiRun; 06-08-2018 at 02:32 PM.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    16. #116
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      Here's the picture of the set up. It's 100 gallon. I bought 9. They all came one from one breeder. No UV and I covered it with a tarp at night to keep it warm.
      Name:  QT.jpg
Views: 165
Size:  184.6 KB

      It was set up a couple weeks before fish arrival with existing plastic media, that I took from the main pond MB, in the 17 gallon tote shower. I started it with the water from the pond. I thought it would cycle by the time the fish arrived, but it didn't.

      Ammonia was between .5 and 2 ppm (with API test kit) during in the first 3 weeks, so I used Safe to bind it and do 50% water change every other day with pond water and used salt at .30%. Ammonia Alert Card showed "Alert" most of the time. At the end of week 3, ammonia and Nitrite were undetectable. I didn't test for PH, but since I used pond water to change, I knew it was between 8-8.4.

      For the 1st week, the temperature was between 62 and 68. I only had one heater at the time and It couldn't keep up, so I bought a second heater and was able to keep it between 70-75 for the 2nd two weeks. By the 4th week, I reduced salt to .15% and turned off the heater to match the pond temperature, which was between 68 and 70.

      I didn't feed them for first a couple day then started feeding them twice or three times a day and made sure they ate everything within 1 minute. By the 2nd week, all of them ate like pigs.

      On day 3, there was an incident with one of the fish. I was watching the fish then I noticed that the water stopped running. Within 30 seconds,I realized that a fish was sucked into the pump. I turned off the pump and saw one fish with a cut on it back and a bulging eye. I thought I lost that one, but it recovered a week later and it still here.

      At the end of the 4th week, I moved them to the main pond. I lost one of them about week later. Other than one rot fin, I didn't notice anything else. The gills look OK. There was no legions. Another one stayed on the bottom, but moved around, for 3 weeks. I though I would lose that one too, but I started feed it sinking food and within 2 days it became active and joined the herds. It's very active and always hungry, but I think it has vision problem. Sometimes, it doesn't see food I drop in front of it.
      Last edited by friscoponder; 06-08-2018 at 03:36 PM.

    17. #117
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      Quote Originally Posted by friscoponder View Post
      Here's the picture of the set up. It's 100 gallon. I bought 9. They all came one from one breeder. No UV and I covered it with a tarp at night to keep it warm.
      Name:  QT.jpg
Views: 165
Size:  184.6 KB

      It was set up a couple weeks before fish arrival with existing plastic media, that I took from the main pond MB, in the 17 gallon tote shower. I started it with the water from the pond. I thought it would cycle by the time the fish arrived, but it didn't.

      Ammonia was between .5 and 2 ppm (with API test kit) during in the first 3 weeks, so I used Safe to bind it and do 50% water change every other day with pond water and used salt at .30%. Ammonia Alert Card showed "Alert" most of the time. At the end of week 3, ammonia and Nitrite were undetectable. I didn't test for PH, but since I used pond water to change, I knew it was between 8-8.4.

      For the 1st week, the temperature was between 62 and 68. I only had one heater at the time and It couldn't keep up, so I bought a second heater and was able to keep it between 70-75 for the 2nd two weeks. By the 4th week, I reduced salt to .15% and turned off the heater to match the pond temperature, which was between 68 and 70.

      I didn't feed them for first a couple day then started feeding them twice or three times a day and made sure they ate everything within 1 minute. By the 2nd week, all of them ate like pigs.

      On day 3, there was an incident with one of the fish. I was watching the fish then I noticed that the water stopped running. Within 30 seconds,I realized that a fish was sucked into the pump. I turned off the pump and saw one fish with a cut on it back and a bulging eye. I thought I lost that one, but it recovered a week later and it still here.

      At the end of the 4th week, I moved them to the main pond. I lost one of them about week later. Other than one rot fin, I didn't notice anything else. The gills look OK. There was no legions. Another one stayed on the bottom, but moved around, for 3 weeks. I though I would lose that one too, but I started feed it sinking food and within 2 days it became active and joined the herds. It's very active and always hungry, but I think it has vision problem. Sometimes, it doesn't see food I drop in front of it.
      Thanks a lot for the the reply. It is a great read and has a nice picture. Koi are really hardy imo from what I have learned. They can take a lot of changes it seems to me. But I think where people make a mistake is when a little bit of flashing and a little bit of redness is when they start adding chemicals and antibiotics and end up killing the 'live water' that is protecting their fish. Of course every situation is different. Good luck with the rest ... they are a great looking bunch.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



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