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    Thread: Iíve been scratching my head for couple days

    1. #1
      OCkoiFan's Avatar
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      Iíve been scratching my head for couple days

      I saw my tancho has some red veins three days ago
      It worsen the evening so I did 20%water change since i though ammonia is .25 from a bit of increase feeding

      There are two more kohaku that show some red veins also but not worse like the tancho
      I did a full test again today
      Ammo 0-.15
      Nitrite 0
      Nitrate 10
      KH 8 drops
      pH 8. Evening
      Pond temp 65F

      The tancho was moved from the indoor pond 70ish F with two other koi 3 weeks ago
      Has them for a year

      I also added two more Showa last 7 days after I did a full qtank procedure and shotgun treatment for 6 weeks

      No signs of flashing, eating normal
      Hope I donít have to bring the back in to treat for bacterial infection

      Thanks
      Attached Images Attached Images     
      M.Nguyen


    2. #2
      hp is online now Supporting Member
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      Well, you know way more than I do when it comes to koi health and treatment, so, I don't have much comments on treatment... Just hope they are ok soon and don't have to deal with all the treatment..

      hp.

    3. #3
      OCkoiFan's Avatar
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      Thanks Hai
      The only thing I can do is treat them with elbagin and salt
      Other than that I still need to learn how to use the needle
      I try to avoid that route by keeping the numbers optimal
      But I guess there gotta be a time for injection
      M.Nguyen


    4. #4
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      Hi, OCKoifan, is the fish stressed? My white koi look like this when we net them. Any chance of a predator harassing fish? Sorry i haven't been following and don't know what your set-up is like. Also, suggest standing your test vials on white background. In my personal experience, ammo is especially hard to read when you want it to be .25, not worse.
      Beautiful fish. Hope problem resolves quickly.



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      You treated the main pond for skin flukes? I've seen cases where splotchy red is due to that although it looks like fairly even veining. Might be worth a scrape to the area and scope.

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      Koigirl
      I’m sure there is no predator
      I took the tancho and two other koi to show 10 days ago
      It does stressed on that day already

      We spray paints the house 3 days ago
      It kinda windy but very minimal could affected since i cover the sides with tarp

      Audienvy
      Last treatment Fluke M for main pond was last fall NoV 17
      I don’t have a scope
      But no flashing or foul play so far
      M.Nguyen


    7. #7
      inazuma28 is offline Senior Member
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      The skin does look angry. Did you scrape/scope the tancho?

    8. #8
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      Any ammonia reading is not desirable.

    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by OCkoiFan View Post
      Koigirl
      Iím sure there is no predator
      I took the tancho and two other koi to show 10 days ago
      It does stressed on that day already

      We spray paints the house 3 days ago
      It kinda windy but very minimal could affected since i cover the sides with tarp

      Audienvy
      Last treatment Fluke M for main pond was last fall NoV 17
      I donít have a scope
      But no flashing or foul play so far
      If timing of paint spray correlates to the issue, then there might be something there. Over-spray or fumes entering the pond? As you stated that your other 2 kohaku are also showing signs, it's probably in the water. Because my pond is small and have mostly pond quality koi, my go to treatment is PP with a 20-30% water change afterwards. Zap the bugs, oxidize toxins, then freshen the water. I know this is a broad approach and may not be best practice for others, but works for me.

      But if you want to get scientific and do a scrape & scope, let me know. I'll bring over my scope for you to add another skill under your belt.

    10. #10
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      Bro Doman71
      Didn’t know you got a scope toy but I’ll ring you up for a learning experience

      Honestly I don’t know the exact volume but just a guesstimate so I’ve never use PP and I’m not a fan yet PP for a few reasons try to keep thing natural is my way of life

      Last time I had similar issues from veining and found out my KH was low and might experienced PH swings
      This time would be difficult because all the numbers seems to be in range
      M.Nguyen


    11. #11
      OCkoiFan's Avatar
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      I’ve remembered Tomviper thread a while ago and I just don’t know if this is my situation now
      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...Virkon+aquatic
      M.Nguyen


    12. #12
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      leave it alone brother with salt at .5

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    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by OCkoiFan View Post
      Iíve remembered Tomviper thread a while ago and I just donít know if this is my situation now
      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...Virkon+aquatic
      So no PH swings? My kohaku suffers from skin issues if the ph swings greater than .3. The case in the link unfortunately does not have any followup. That veining looks pretty bad imo, but should be easy to monitor especially on a white background. Focus of a particular vein and watch whether if is fading, turning darker, getting redder, or spreading. How is she/he behaving? Maintain good water quality, low dissolved organics (meaning cut back on the feeding), water changes. When I do feed at times like this I soak my food in freshly squeezed orange juice and hand feed it. Get the injectables ready. If it shows any sort of deterioration, change in behaviour, sulking, lethargy I would go ahead and inject.
      So no clue as to what may have caused this? What ever is in your mind as probable cause give us a list. You're getting some major brainstorming going on here . Also are those eyes normally protruded? Are the veining only on the top or also runs down side?
      Last edited by KoiRun; 1 Week Ago at 02:17 PM.
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    14. #14
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      I was just wondering if it's early sign of an internal bacterial infection of something like this:
      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...on-the-journey
      (negative on scrape and scope)
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    15. #15
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      Thanks for chimed in bro KR
      She is very normal and active except the veining
      I like the orange juice idea ahaha but my legs alway over the shoulder lately
      Just monitor for now
      And elbagin/salt seem my best resources at this time
      M.Nguyen


    16. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by SeaSideAquatics, LLC View Post
      leave it alone brother with salt at .5
      Can you mix that much salt with your rice? Geezzz jk
      M.Nguyen


    17. #17
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      I don't know if it is the cause or not, but you mentioned that the fish had been in a show about 10 days ago. Shows are very stressful for the fish, both in getting them there and getting them home, plus the water quality being less than ideal at the show. I would keep an eye on the fish, allow for the stress levels to go down and see if that is what the problem is. Also, if it is stress, I know some like to use some salt, as it does tend to reduce the stress, but be careful as salt is irritating and will cause the same veining. I would just wait and see if it is getting better, or getting worse.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by OCkoiFan View Post
      Thanks for chimed in bro KR
      She is very normal and active except the veining
      I like the orange juice idea ahaha but my legs alway over the shoulder lately
      Just monitor for now
      And elbagin/salt seem my best resources at this time
      So this tancho and 2 others went to the show, and returned from the show into QT without issue(for 7 days). The tancho started showing red veins only after entering the main pond... and 2 other larger kohaku that are already in the main pond are also showing similar symptoms? Could the tancho still be stressed in this situation? and how would the other 2 kohaku become stressed? To answer my own question... they could be stressed, but probably not because of the show, but maybe from other water quality issues?

      I'm still learning here, so can you share your logic on why salt and elbagin is your best resources? Are you using salt to lower osmotic pressure? hence reduced energy spent on eliminating excess water and more on recovery? or is it to kill parasites? And elbagin being an in water antibiotic, are you thinking that this is an infection? and that antibiotic can help prevent/reduce the infection?

      In any case, keep us updated and staying on course is probably the best option... and more water change(imo).

    19. #19
      OCkoiFan's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Doman71 View Post
      So this tancho and 2 others went to the show, and returned from the show into QT without issue(for 7 days). The tancho started showing red veins only after entering the main pond... and 2 other larger kohaku that are already in the main pond are also showing similar symptoms? Could the tancho still be stressed in this situation? and how would the other 2 kohaku become stressed? To answer my own question... they could be stressed, but probably not because of the show, but maybe from other water quality issues?

      I'm still learning here, so can you share your logic on why salt and elbagin is your best resources? Are you using salt to lower osmotic pressure? hence reduced energy spent on eliminating excess water and more on recovery? or is it to kill parasites? And elbagin being an in water antibiotic, are you thinking that this is an infection? and that antibiotic can help prevent/reduce the infection?

      In any case, keep us updated and staying on course is probably the best option... and more water change(imo).

      The 3 koi that went to show was moved to the main pond a week before show and adapted just fine
      The tancho showed veining (stress) right after we got to the contest
      They all went back into my main pond after the show and doing fine for at least 10 days until now
      My momotaro kohaku is getting bad also with the super growth kohaku
      There must be something in my water and the skin condition of all my kohaku, funny the all the showas seem ok
      Not just the showed koi

      Btw I suppose to do the first round of the shotgun treatment today but instead I did
      A 50% Waterchange and hope for improvement


      Salt and elbagin help the fish after transport shipping bump and bruise etcs
      It is an antibiotic for internal/bacterial infection and i have very high successful rate with it since I donít have the resources of injection
      Iíve been neglected because of the roof/paint projects for the last 10days suck
      Last edited by OCkoiFan; 1 Week Ago at 12:06 AM.
      M.Nguyen


    20. #20
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      The herd is much better condition/shape this morning after a huge water change

      Tested this morning
      Ammo close to 0
      KH 9drops
      PH 7.8
      Iím going to check PH evening and see what is the difference
      Thinking I might have a .2 swing in PH
      Last edited by OCkoiFan; 1 Week Ago at 10:54 AM.
      M.Nguyen


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