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  • Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
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    Thread: Fines Filtration Requirements

    1. #21
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      Quote Originally Posted by audioenvy View Post
      I agree it doesn't NEED a sieve. But the more junk comes into the profidrum especially big stuff like leaves the more often it has to cycle and the more water it has to dump. For someone who has a drain that will hold infinite waste water that's fine. I'm in a residential neighborhood where too much cleaning water is going to pool up in the yard. I could dig a big hole or rip up the yard or whatever--and I might at some point--but for now it's nice to keep the cleaning cycles down.
      I see. My profi has cycled so little

    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Curious what sieve needed cleaning every day?
      I have an Ultra III and never needed to clean daily but imo 300 micron screen would still work great with
      feather rock. At several times the cost an RDF doesn't always make sense.
      I'm a little confused. I thought that the general consensious was that you needed some S/G filters or a bead filter in between a sieve and bio filter. Are you saying that you do not?
      -Lars


    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by lkstaack View Post
      I'm a little confused. I thought that the general consensious was that you needed some S/G filters or a bead filter in between a sieve and bio filter. Are you saying that you do not?
      Showers will work with water clean to 200 microns. Fish will be healthy. If you are really picky about water clarity tho, you may be somewhat disappointed

    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by DragonFireSG View Post
      Showers will work with water clean to 200 microns. Fish will be healthy. If you are really picky about water clarity tho, you may be somewhat disappointed

      I use showers and s/g filters but in parallel and not in a series. Either will work
      but my shower stack is 8' tall so it's not practical for me to put a s/g filter before it.
      --Steve
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      "It is far better to be alone, than to be in bad company." --George Washington

    5. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post

      I use showers and s/g filters but in parallel and not in a series. Either will work
      but my shower stack is 8' tall so it's not practical for me to put a s/g filter before it.
      Wow, 8'! How many layers is that, how thick is each layer, and how much space between layers do you have?

      Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
      -Lars


    6. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by lkstaack View Post
      I'm a little confused. I thought that the general consensious was that you needed some S/G filters or a bead filter in between a sieve and bio filter. Are you saying that you do not?
      Unfortunately there is no general consensus about anything in the koi hobby There are always people with differing opinions and you just need to sort through the comments and choose what you think is best.
      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
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    7. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by lkstaack View Post
      Wow, 8'! How many layers is that, how thick is each layer, and how much space between layers do you have?

      Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
      I should have clarified, the shower is only a stack of 4 - 4'x12"x12" totes but it's lifted 4' off the ground to gravity feed another 30' or
      so back to the pond.

      --Steve
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    8. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by DragonFireSG View Post
      True. A school of thought says that removing too much debris will starve larger biofilter critters of food.
      Ok you got me. Can you expand on this please.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    9. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      Ok you got me. Can you expand on this please.
      To summarize something I read somewhere (i.e. take with a pinch, or handful of salt)..
      Some filter organism - typically the free swimming animals like certain copepods, consume larger particulates rather than absorbing chemicals in the water. These critters feed on waste material and help keep the ecosystem in balance. Over aggressive removal of waste material starves these fellas.
      Then again if you have a seriously aggressive waste removal system, you wouldn't need these guys in your filter.

    10. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by DragonFireSG View Post
      To summarize something I read somewhere (i.e. take with a pinch, or handful of salt)..
      Some filter organism - typically the free swimming animals like certain copepods, consume larger particulates rather than absorbing chemicals in the water. These critters feed on waste material and help keep the ecosystem in balance. Over aggressive removal of waste material starves these fellas.
      Then again if you have a seriously aggressive waste removal system, you wouldn't need these guys in your filter.
      To me this would be excessive removal and at a 70 micron screen will still let the critters thrive. I had some wigglers on my waste port of rdf so they certainly do get
      removed by rdf though.

    11. #31
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      I have no uv on this and water is perfect after rdf to shower. Removing the fines is great and when the pond builds algae on walls again the biobugs thrive there again. Pond has been going 5 days and I'm feeding alot with 0 waste in pond
      Attached Images Attached Images  
      Last edited by kevin32; 05-13-2018 at 12:50 AM.

    12. #32
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      As with everything in the answer is it depends. My opinion is with either a sieve or RDF you wouldn't need any additional mechanical filtration. The RDF is going to be superior to the sieve but either are going to be superior to anything else. Also don't think you have to have a shower filter. A moving bed filter is also very effective and isn't as finicky about the pre-filtration as a shower filter seems to be.

    13. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by DragonFireSG View Post
      To summarize something I read somewhere (i.e. take with a pinch, or handful of salt)..
      Some filter organism - typically the free swimming animals like certain copepods, consume larger particulates rather than absorbing chemicals in the water. These critters feed on waste material and help keep the ecosystem in balance. Over aggressive removal of waste material starves these fellas.
      Then again if you have a seriously aggressive waste removal system, you wouldn't need these guys in your filter.
      True, filter critters "crop" biofilms so that they are nice and tight. Examples of critters are rotifers, nematodes, bristleworms and flatworms. Apparently biofilms aka beneficial bacteria form nice flocs or films to protect themselves from these predators (among other advantages of being in a floc or biofilm). With a very healthy biofilm one can expect lower DOCs as these are absorbed and less turbidity as fines are adsorbed resulting is clear water. Bacteria and 'critters' which are protozoans and metazoans secrete substances that are sticky and have ionic charges that can adsorb heavy metals, toxins, and fines. Critters can negatively affected by toxicity and low dissolved oxygen. They can also be washed out by aggressive removal or by high a highly turbulent environment. High turbulent environment makes it difficult for female and male organisms to meet and copulate. I visited a friend once with a sick pond which had recently been treated with chemicals for an unknown culprit (probably a bacterial pathogen) and found the water pretty turbid. I examined a scrape of his filter under a microscope and found no critters or anything moving. I attributed this to chemicals used which I think was formaldehyde based. He also was using salt.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    14. #34
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      If I remove the fines so well I don't need the critters to help with the fines removal. My rdf often has worms on the waste tray and also has some wigglers on the shower media also. I have no foam on my pond after shower right now. I used to get foam in the morning when the pond had algae and sides and some would die off overnight but with a constant flow now I'm wondering if my walls will even build up carpet algae again. Time will tell I guess

    15. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by kevin32 View Post
      If I remove the fines so well I don't need the critters to help with the fines removal. My rdf often has worms on the waste tray and also has some wigglers on the shower media also. I have no foam on my pond after shower right now. I used to get foam in the morning when the pond had algae and sides and some would die off overnight but with a constant flow now I'm wondering if my walls will even build up carpet algae again. Time will tell I guess
      I meant microscopic critters. These you can't see with your naked eyes. But macroscopic ones won't hurt either. My only guess why you've been lucky to have clear water is not only because of your RDF and Saki food, but also the feather rock you use in your shower. I think these has lots of protected spaces for biofilm and it's critters.I bet you don't touch this.

      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    16. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiRun View Post
      I meant microscopic critters. These you can't see with your naked eyes. But macroscopic ones won't hurt either. My only guess why you've been lucky to have clear water is not only because of your RDF and Saki food, but also the feather rock you use in your shower. I think these has lots of protected spaces for biofilm and it's critters.I bet you don't touch this.

      I cleaned my shower media once and really I should have left it alone. My water quality has to do with a combination of things though imo. My prefilter is huge and the best you can get imo.most of my shower media is ceramic though and it does the same thing imo. Eventually any media needs cleaned but the better you prefilter it the less it needs cleaned . Ive used a sieve filter and also 2 different rdfs . The new rdf Is keeping the media so clean now and water is pristine
      Last edited by kevin32; 05-16-2018 at 11:24 PM.

    17. #37
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      I suspect the feather rock is also why your nitrate levels are low and mine are through the roof. Feathered rock has a lot more sheltered space for these critters to thrive. My new pond's shower will have at least one tray set up with feather rock.

    18. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by DragonFireSG View Post
      I suspect the feather rock is also why your nitrate levels are low and mine are through the roof. Feathered rock has a lot more sheltered space for these critters to thrive. My new pond's shower will have at least one tray set up with feather rock.
      I think feather rock has similar 'specific surface area' as Seachem Matrix which claims to be able to control nitrate. That is probably because it also claims to support not only aerobic but also anaerobic bacterial species. Many suspect they are exactly the same. Although Matrix is shaped like rocks, it is white. Feather rock is dark-coloured.
      Last edited by KoiRun; 05-25-2018 at 01:14 AM.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin



    19. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by DragonFireSG View Post
      To summarize something I read somewhere (i.e. take with a pinch, or handful of salt)..
      Some filter organism - typically the free swimming animals like certain copepods, consume larger particulates rather than absorbing chemicals in the water. These critters feed on waste material and help keep the ecosystem in balance. Over aggressive removal of waste material starves these fellas.
      Then again if you have a seriously aggressive waste removal system, you wouldn't need these guys in your filter.
      Perhaps you were reading about Asellus Aquaticus.

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...rful+thing+has

      Since this thread from 2008, I have been actively cultivating these critters in my filters. They live in my static upflow biofilters which contain all kinds of mixed media from bioballs, ceramics, k1 types and matala matts. I never have to flush these filters anymore - the creatures keep them that clean. They also live in my sand and gravel filters which feed into the bio barrels and get flushed weekly, but I still see them in there all the time, so I guess many hang on, while some get washed away. They are not microscopic, they are about 1/4 long.

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      Last edited by GoldieGirl; 05-25-2018 at 07:42 PM.
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