• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
    Results 1 to 20 of 24

    Thread: Are koi mutts considered "culled" fishes?

    1. #1
      claytonyu is offline Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      Manila
      Posts
      70

      Are koi mutts considered "culled" fishes?

      Good looking koi fry with recognizable patterns are often selected from millions of unattractive ones. The culled fishes are then killed (am I right?). However, how do koi mutts make it to the market? Are they in between the good looking ones and the culled koi, as they look better than the rest but not as good as the recognized patterns?

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    2. #2
      Marlo is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2015
      Location
      Long Beach
      Posts
      209
      Culled fishes are called “fish food”. Mutts are just the mistakes that got through the culling processes.
      63m3 gunite pool
      ProfiDrum CombiBio 50


    3. #3
      My2butterflies is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Location
      Southern MN
      Posts
      335
      My guess would be mutts are backyard pond spawns that get sold to fish stores. Not really any culling process, just those that survived. That is the only explanation that makes sense to me and would explain why a few of mine are so butt ugly. Lol

    4. #4
      FRK's Avatar
      FRK is offline Supporting Member
      is On the home stretch
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2018
      Location
      Southwest Missouri, USA
      Posts
      293
      I think breeders do multiple cullings from a spawn. You are correct about the first cull most get thrown out to reduce numbers. Later cullings are a sorting between higher quality and lesser quality and the lesser quality are sold at a lowerer price even from Japan.

    5. #5
      lukef's Avatar
      lukef is offline king of the lilliputians
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2006
      Location
      florida
      Posts
      4,226
      to actually answer your question...mutts are not culled.
      now to dirty the water.... koi spawns are culled at several levels at several degrees of criteria.... Most fish sold are culls at one level or another
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    6. #6
      claytonyu is offline Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      Manila
      Posts
      70
      Quote Originally Posted by lukef View Post
      to actually answer your question...mutts are not culled.
      now to dirty the water.... koi spawns are culled at several levels at several degrees of criteria.... Most fish sold are culls at one level or another
      hmm so mutts are not culled, meaning they do not reach show standards, but not unattractive enough to be eliminated?

    7. #7
      claytonyu is offline Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      Manila
      Posts
      70
      Quote Originally Posted by FRK View Post
      I think breeders do multiple cullings from a spawn. You are correct about the first cull most get thrown out to reduce numbers. Later cullings are a sorting between higher quality and lesser quality and the lesser quality are sold at a lowerer price even from Japan.
      So you mean that the first cull are fish that cannot be sold due to their unattractiveness

    8. #8
      FRK's Avatar
      FRK is offline Supporting Member
      is On the home stretch
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2018
      Location
      Southwest Missouri, USA
      Posts
      293
      I ussually think of a "Mutt" as the result of a flok spawn between uncontrolled parents. Mutts can be attractive. Mutts can and are some times marketed. Profesional breeders either can not or are not interested in raising every single egg that hatches. Only a very small percent will present high quality potential and the rest need to be eliminated to make room for the best to grow. I allways go by the aquariums in Pets Mart when I go in for other supplies and look at the Koi they have to offer. None of they're fish would have survived my culling if I had bred them, but yet here they are ,, for sale and being purchased by someone.

    9. #9
      FRK's Avatar
      FRK is offline Supporting Member
      is On the home stretch
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2018
      Location
      Southwest Missouri, USA
      Posts
      293
      Below is a photo of what I call my "Mutt" pond. There are only a few fish here that were purchased, none were good quality when purchased. They spawn every year "uncontrolled". I drink beer, relax and enjoy feeding and watching them every day. Some are of a quality I see for sale for on the internet at a price range of $150 - $300 every day.

      Name:  20180215_145745.jpg
Views: 846
Size:  101.4 KB

    10. #10
      claytonyu is offline Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      Manila
      Posts
      70
      About 7 of the fish in our pond I think are "mutts" but they are good to look at, other mutts in cheaper markets I would consider undesirable, as they have all these black faded spots around the body, unfortunately I dont have pictures

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    11. #11
      claytonyu is offline Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      Manila
      Posts
      70
      Do you think constant culling every generation can increase the number of decent patterns every spawn?

    12. #12
      FRK's Avatar
      FRK is offline Supporting Member
      is On the home stretch
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2018
      Location
      Southwest Missouri, USA
      Posts
      293
      That is a very broad question. Selective breeding and culling can lead you in that direction I suppose. After all that is basically what the Japanese have been doing for many years and generations. If you chose parents with the qualities you like and spawn them. Keep only the very few that repeat or improve on those qualities. Raise them for several years and try again, repeat for several generations and "maybe" you could improve the percent of each spawn having the qualities you like.

    13. #13
      FRK's Avatar
      FRK is offline Supporting Member
      is On the home stretch
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2018
      Location
      Southwest Missouri, USA
      Posts
      293
      It can be fun to imagine what you might be able to do with Koi genetics given the time and patience it would take. For instance picture taking a good example of the clasic Showa and imagine replacing the Shiroji (white) with Ki (yeliow), maybe it's been done, don't know. Fun to relax by the pond, have a beer and think about.

    14. #14
      claytonyu is offline Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      Manila
      Posts
      70
      Quote Originally Posted by FRK View Post
      That is a very broad question. Selective breeding and culling can lead you in that direction I suppose. After all that is basically what the Japanese have been doing for many years and generations. If you chose parents with the qualities you like and spawn them. Keep only the very few that repeat or improve on those qualities. Raise them for several years and try again, repeat for several generations and "maybe" you could improve the percent of each spawn having the qualities you like.
      I am quite curious on how koi fish are graded. Yes, there are these recognized patterns that are selected, but among the culled fishes, do they still select the better looking ones and sell them for less? In my country they do. No recognized patterns but they look decent enough

    15. #15
      FRK's Avatar
      FRK is offline Supporting Member
      is On the home stretch
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2018
      Location
      Southwest Missouri, USA
      Posts
      293
      Again we are only touching the surface a a very deep subject. First, not all Koi are intended to have a patern. In all Koi some things are considered of more importance than color or patern and two of these are conformation and skin quality. There is a lot of information on the internet you can search for on judgeing koi quality. Sashi, Kiwa, Shiroji, Sumi, Motoguru, Fukurin,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Welcome to the wonderland.

    16. #16
      ricshaw is offline Senior Member
      is who misses his Koi.
       
      Feeling:
      Bemused
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2016
      Location
      Southern California
      Posts
      2,085
      Quote Originally Posted by claytonyu View Post
      hmm so mutts are not culled, meaning they do not reach show standards, but not unattractive enough to be eliminated?
      Not all Koi breeders have the same quality standards. For example; A domestic goldfish/Koi breeder may be in the business of supplying inexpensive goldfish and Koi to the pet store trade. I would call these Koi "mutts", the better ones "pond grade". Some Japanese high-end Koi breeders specialize in certain show quality varieties like Showa. The high-end Japanese Koi breeders sell "culls" which I call "pond grade" Koi. Not all "pond grade" Koi are equal.


      member

    17. #17
      Marilyn's Avatar
      Marilyn is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2008
      Location
      happy in the Heartland! 46071
      Posts
      17,079
      Quote Originally Posted by FRK View Post
      Again we are only touching the surface a a very deep subject. First, not all Koi are intended to have a patern. In all Koi some things are considered of more importance than color or patern and two of these are conformation and skin quality. There is a lot of information on the internet you can search for on judgeing koi quality. Sashi, Kiwa, Shiroji, Sumi, Motoguru, Fukurin,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Welcome to the wonderland.
      I agree with a lot of what you're saying but the only way to assess quality is in person. The internet is a good resource for guidelines but I've yet to meet anyone that has a good understanding of quality that only looked at koi via the internet.

      OP, get out and see as many fish in your area as you can. Ask lots of questions in person. Heck, have a list and ask someone to point out the things you are questioning. I know there are hobbyists in Manilla. Avail yourself of the local resources and your learning curve will take a lot less time than trying to do this online. Find a club or two, find some people that show koi with success, find a few dealers but get out and see the koi in person.

      There is a ton of information on the internet. Some of it good, a slew of it is awful. Anyone with a keyboard can play an expert. That is why it is so important to get out and start putting the pieces together for yourself.

      Lastly, do you have a pond? When I first got into the hobby I bought a lot of tosai. I bought the same varieties but with what my inexperienced eye could perceive were differences. Don't focus on pattern. Pattern is the last component when you are trying to learn about koi. Focus on skin, conformation, sumi and beni. As they mature, they give you lots of information. There is nothing like seeing this in front of you to understand it.

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    18. #18
      richtoybox's Avatar
      richtoybox is offline Administrator
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Sandston, VA
      Posts
      14,345
      Technically, all koi that you have the opportunity to buy are culls. The breeder will not sell a fish that he doesn't want to sell. There is a big difference in first cull, which is done at a very young age to get rid of deformities, second cull, third cull, and so forth. The breeder can't keep but so many fish, and the ones he keeps, at least for now, are not culls, but with each cull, the price goes up. Some of the latter culls are very very expensive, and will win many shows in their time, but in the end, they were sold, so that makes them one that has reached the end of the development in the eyes of the breeder. The price of the culls in the second or third cull may be so cheap that the only places that would handle them are pet stores, and we would all call them junk, but by the time the fish have survived 3 years of culling, unless the fish has literally fallen apart, the fish that have survived the culls to that point are not real cheap.
      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    19. #19
      claytonyu is offline Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      Manila
      Posts
      70
      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      Technically, all koi that you have the opportunity to buy are culls. The breeder will not sell a fish that he doesn't want to sell. There is a big difference in first cull, which is done at a very young age to get rid of deformities, second cull, third cull, and so forth. The breeder can't keep but so many fish, and the ones he keeps, at least for now, are not culls, but with each cull, the price goes up. Some of the latter culls are very very expensive, and will win many shows in their time, but in the end, they were sold, so that makes them one that has reached the end of the development in the eyes of the breeder. The price of the culls in the second or third cull may be so cheap that the only places that would handle them are pet stores, and we would all call them junk, but by the time the fish have survived 3 years of culling, unless the fish has literally fallen apart, the fish that have survived the culls to that point are not real cheap.
      Just a clarification, the first cull is usually destroyed right?

    20. #20
      FRK's Avatar
      FRK is offline Supporting Member
      is On the home stretch
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2018
      Location
      Southwest Missouri, USA
      Posts
      293
      Ussually that is correct.

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •